Conference 7.286::digital

    Oh boy!
    
    Another trial by VAX Notes, I wonder if union grievance procedures are
    this much fun...

    I went through the same thing you are going through. At the time I was
    a secretary, and I was also attending college in a computer science
    curriculum. I wanted to take VAX/VMS Utilities and Commands. I was told
    in no uncertain terms, NO! The reason? My current job did not require
    me to have the knowledge of VAX/VMS Utilities and Commands. I felt that
    since Digital was encouraging their employees to go further in the
    company that I could take this course. WRONG! I went to personnel and
    was told the same thing. Unless I could figure out SOME WAY that
    VAX/VMS Utilities and Commands was part of my every day job, there was
    no way I could take it. Or any OTHER technical type course.
    
    So, as a result, one year later I FINALLY got an entry level job in our
    data center, and yes, I DID need utilities and commands! So, I could
    take the course (or any course related to my job) during company time.
    But as a secretary, I'd have to find a college course for VAX/VMS
    (which is next to impossible at my college).
    
    Not to sound discouraging, but I don't think you'll win this battle. As
    a secretary, I could take all the DECmate training, LN03 font
    management, etc. training during company time I wanted. But I had to
    wait till I had a job that I NEEDED the technical training in order to
    get any VAX/VMS or related courses. Since I don't know what you do, I
    don't know how you could figure out a way to make the knowledge of
    PASCAL programming part of your job. (I had to take PASCAL at college -
    got a lot more out of it than I would have from an internal
    course-IMO!)
    
    Good luck. You're gonna need it...
    
    Cheryl

    Re .0
    
    Why should Digital PAY YOU to further your own career? Your salary is
    given to you in return for doing a job. As you've found out career
    related training on company time is at the discretion of your manager.
    Digital is more than happy to pay education expenses towards a degree
    and the program is very generous. I don't think they should pay you
    to go to school on company time. Yes I know about GEEP, I consider that
    to be different. Here it is Digital specifically SELECTING employees
    for education.
    
    Dave

    I expect people I manage to try to take their career related courses
    outside of working hours.  However, if someone needs a specific course
    at a specific time that coincides with the normal workday, I am willing
    to look at the situation and to try make it workable for the employee
    without short changing Digital.
    
    Career related courses might not be relevant to the current job, but
    are often relevant to Digital later.  Digital needs long term
    commitment from employees to be successful, I believe that the
    corporation should look at the long term needs of employees as long as
    those needs match the probable needs of Digital.
    
    Also, one classroom hour requires the average of two or three hours of
    homework for most courses I have taken.  The fact that an employee is
    willing to invest the outside time also goes a long way.
    
    I can also see where in some environments, it is very difficult for a
    manager to justify the time off for training that does not fill an
    immediate need.  But, I try to deal with each situation and come up
    with a solution that is in the best interest of both the employee and
    DEC.

    re. .0
    
    An employee's development plan is part of the JP&R process.  If your
    career planning is done correctly, you should have a development plan
    which ought to enable you to evolve along your chosen career path.  In
    this case, the issue raised in .0 does not occur.
    
    

    It could be that the development plan part of the JP&R is given a
    different weight in DEC US and outside US.  It could be that managers
    are measured differently in this respect in different parts of DEC.
    
    In some parts of the company sending employees to courses could be
    quite a bit more important in the development plan.  Sometimes it's
    more effective to develop and promote a current employee than to hire
    from outside, particularly if the skill required is scarce in the labor
    pool.  Other benefits to the company could be that a better-trained
    employee translates into a longer-term employee.  Of course, the
    potential downside is that all that training goes down the drain if the
    employee leaves prematurely.
    
    As a manager I do not believe that training should be used purely as a
    reward or motivator.  But training as a component of developing an
    employee is most certainly justified, particularly when there will be
    an immediate payoff to the company.  But sometimes the payoff is
    measured very narrowly by cost center managers (speaking as one).
    
    --Simon
    

    You can always take the course on your own time. Digital offers a lot
    of its courses after 5:00pm. 

    RE:   <<< Note 1073.7 by SENIOR::YEATMAN "Every Rose has its Thorn!" >>>
   >                      -< Take the course at night >-

   > You can always take the course on your own time. Digital offers a lot
   > of its courses after 5:00pm. 
    
         That depends on at which site you work.  In Colorado Springs, very
    few courses are taught after 5:00pm (if any).  The option of getting
    travel to another site approved is likely to be more difficult than 
    getting a resistant manager to approve courses on work time.
    
                                          GB

    
    I have been taking courses at university for the last 10 years. Some of
    these courses are only offered during the day. For these, I get the
    approval to attend as long as I can make up the time.
    
    I have no problem with that, there is self career improvement and getting
    the job done for Digital. Therefore, if you are taking a course to
    improve your job skill for Digital, then it should be on Digital. If you
    are taking a course to improve yourself, it should be on your own time.
    
    If I am taking a course which I feel is beneficial to myself
    I would have no problem making up the time. As a matter
    a fact, it is a good position to be in. What if Digital was more hard
    nose about this, I have seen other Hi-Tech companies not even giving
    you the opportunity to make up the time. At least you have been given
    a choice. 
    
    However, some courses I have taken are beneficial to Digital and
    myself, win-win situation.
    
    
    
    -Carmelo
    
    

         It is wise to take advantage of the incredible pool of resources
    we have, no matter what it takes to do so.  I once worked for a manager
    who was very restrictive with regard to internal training.  When he
    did not approve a certain class I felt I needed, I simply took a week's
    vacation to attend the class.  I don't know if this impressed him, but
    I had no further problem getting class approvals.
    
         Most companies do not provide such a vast set of possibilities to
    improve oneself as does Digital.  After five years at this company, it
    is conceivable that a moderately ambitious entry-level person could
    make their market value (impersonal term, isn't it?) rise by more than
    $15K.  I know of one case in which a person more than doubled even THAT
    figure.
    
         Don't let the manager hold you up.  He/She must be concerned with
    their own situation.  You are responsible for taking care of yourself.
    Take some classes any way you can.  Apply for a job in the area you are
    studying and ask about training.  Then, go ballistic.
    
                                       GB

    A few responses back someone mentioned JP&R.  Excellent suggestion. 
    With a job plan, which ties into a career plan, these questions are
    asked up-front and in a cooperative environment.  Another option is a
    Personalized Training Plan which is done with Office Applications. 
    That way, there's a clear curriculum which your manager can look at,
    and s/he would've been involved in its creation, so there shouldn't be
    any questions after that.
    
    Don't know about the PASCAL, but I could easily make an argument that
    VAX/VMS Utilities is immediately applicable to ANY job in Digital. 
    I've seen people in fields as diverse as health services, security and
    the cafeteria using VAXmail!  You might have to be imaginitive, but I'm
    willing to bet you could make a case on that.  In making a case, try
    using your job description (not job plan or description for your own
    personal job, but your generic Digital job description) so you can
    use the argument that you should have 'transferable skills' commensurate
    with your position.
    
    One thing not suggested here, and it's a bit late for your
    circumstances, but I *always* ask about a potential manager's position
    on training when I'm interviewing for jobs.  If the manager doesn't
    respond favorably, I don't consider the job.  Going into an interview
    with something of a checklist isn't such a bad idea; I've used one
    quite successfully for my 10-year duration here.  I discussed with one
    potential manager the fact that I go to school at night for a degree,
    and he was brazen enough to tell me that none of his secretaries ever
    needed anything like THAT before, and they were all perfectly content
    where they were (no doubt kissing his feet, but I didn't say that). 
    Anyway, it helps to get these things understood BEFORE getting into a
    new job, if at all possible (and I realize it's not always possible,
    but...).
    
    Oh well. Good Luck!
    

    As someone relatively new to Digital, the company's attitude towards
    training needs work. 
    
    1. The issue of training during company time should be up to the
    employee. Each employee has work that must be done. If an employee
    feels that thier work schedule can accomodate an in-hours course, they
    should be allowed to take it!
    
    2. Ignorant employees are inefficient employees -- I consider it a plus
    if someone takes an interest in learning more about the technology
    surrounding them, rather than maintaining a narrow focus.
    
    At the company I previously worked for, education was a REQUIREMENT,
    not an option. All employees were required to take a minimum 20 hours
    of training each year! And interestingly enough it was a welcome
    requirement. Most courses I took could only remotely be justified based
    on the work I was doing, but, I found that the knowledge would come in
    handy at unexpected times, and ultimately, allowed me to function
    comfortably across many disciplines.
    
    My only suggestion to people being denied training opportunities is to
    rant, rave and pester until you get the training you feel you need,
    even if your only justification is that you don't want to feel "stupid"
    when someone asks you what your company's business is.
    
    			
    								JAH

    The attitude varies from manager to manager.  Some strongly encourage
    even non-related education; others don't.  Let's be careful about
    making blanket statements about "the company's attitude".

    
    "If you think training is expensive, try ignorance."
    
    Bo ;-)

    Thats part of the problem, it shouldnt be a manager to manager decision
    it should be the same across the board. Just my opinion.
    

	re .5:
    
>>>     An employee's development plan is part of the JP&R process.  If your
>>>     career planning is done correctly, you should have a development plan
>>>     which ought to enable you to evolve along your chosen career path.  In
>>>     this case, the issue raised in .0 does not occur.

	Nice in theory. In practice I suspect this neat formulation is
	next to content-free.

	Hint for solvers: examine carefully the words "if", "should"
	and "ought" in the above quotation, and think about the
	implications of the use of these words.

	The reality (often but not always) is that a "chosen career path"
	which differs from the work the manager hired you in to do for the
	next 18 months is not an option.
 

	re .10:

>>>     Most companies do not provide such a vast set of possibilities to
>>>     improve oneself as does Digital.  After five years at this company, it
>>>     is conceivable that a moderately ambitious entry-level person could
>>>     make their market value (impersonal term, isn't it?) rise by more than
>>>     $15K.  I know of one case in which a person more than doubled even THAT
>>>     figure.

	Interesting. I know of many cases where moderately ambitious new hires
	made their "market value" rise by up to $15K. Most of them then left
	the company, having profited by getting a free "DEC education".

	These people often came in at much higher salaries than "old timers"
	at the same level, and to compound the injury, got a whole lot more
	training "to get them up to speed".

	Since we are in the business of knowledge, I cannot see any way to
	avoid the current crippling drain of talent and accumulation of
	mediocrity, without abandoning the outdated "scientific management"
	treatment of employees as "self-interested assets".

	In other words, we need to:

		(1) Provide pay for performance (I mean, really).

		(2) Pay and train loyal long-term employees at least as
		    well as new hires.

		(3) Minimise the use of contract personnel. Either someone
		    is the sort of person we want working for us, or (s)he
		    isn't. Our people really are our greatest asset, and we
		    should treat them as such.

		(4) Prevent excellent performers from leaving Digital because
		    they aren't earning enough, getting recognition, obtaining
		    promotion, or learning enough.

		(5) Encourage and empower the new idea that effective employees
		    should be learning EVERY DAY. Today's managers mostly
		    underestimate by AT LEAST AN ORDER OF MAGNITUDE the
		    amount of learning most employees need to sustain to
		    remain effective at the level they should be.

		(6) Treat a manager who "runs down" or "asset-strips" any
		    employee like one who damages or destroys any other
		    company asset worth up to $3 million ($100K for 30 years).

	/Tom

    re: <<< Note 1073.16 by COUNT0::WELSH "Tom Welsh" >>>
    
    One dubious distinction that we share with IBM:  Our company has
    hired and trained many of our competitors.  Not just the employees,
    but staff, executive management, and most notably, several founders.
    
    We can rant all we want against mediocre employment practices, but the
    fact is that the company has so much inertia built up that it can get
    by using the existing system for several more years before things will
    really start falling apart.  If management truly cannot plan for the
    long term anymore, then we will no doubt succumb to the problem at some
    point.  The real losers won't be management, or maybe even most of the
    (onetime) employees;  the *real* losers would be the stockholders.
    
    A few comments on your list:
    
>	(1) Provide pay for performance (I mean, really).
>	(2) Pay and train loyal long-term employees at least as
>	    well as new hires.

    No argument here.
    
>	(3) Minimise the use of contract personnel. Either someone

    Employees may be great assets, but they are also very unwieldy.
    In our line of business, where flexibility and change are very
    important, I think that it is crucial to have a mix of permanent
    and non-permanent employees, to provide both for continuity and
    for change.
    
>	(5) Encourage and empower the new idea that effective employees
>	    should be learning EVERY DAY. Today's managers mostly
    
    I don't think managers are completely to blame for education problems.
    Too often employees have abused the education system within the company
    by failing to use it properly.  I've seen people who refused to touch
    even a temporary assignment unless they were given extensive training,
    only to use it sparingly, if at all.  And how many people do you know
    who have signed up for training for something and only show up once or
    twice to the actual class ...
    
>	(6) Treat a manager who "runs down" or "asset-strips" any
    
    	AMEN.

  I agree with one of the replies that one option is to sign up for the course
and take it on vacation time, if you have enough vacation time to spare. Once
your manager knows that you are going to take the course anyway, and are seri-
ous enough to use vacation time for it, he might convert it to company time
"after the fact".
  Some employees simply aren't in a position to take a course during work
hours on their own time and then make up the time. The plant may be closed in
the evening and on weekends, or the work may not be doable in off hours. 
  Taking a college course in place of DEC training is not an option for some
people. Where I am, the nearest "real" college is 30 miles away. And what if
you take a programming course at a college that uses non-DEC equipment and
find that the programs don't run on DEC hardware when written as shown?
  Has anyone reading this tried to take a "career related" National Techno-
logical University course on company time? If so, did you have trouble get-
ting your manager's approval? This is a "double whammy" because NTU courses are
also much more expensive than in-person night courses.