Conference 7.286::digital

    Down here in Leicester, MA (where touch-tone is just a dream), the line
    I'm using right now is BASIC service while my voice line has been
    "Reach Out America", "Baystate(?)" and whatever else they offer.  
    
    No problem.
    
    -joe tomkowitz

We have 5 phones in our house, and three of them have different types of
service.  With the phone company, it's usually just a matter of calling back
a number of times - once you find someone who doesn't know x can't be done,
you're fine.

M

    Joe,
    	
    	I didn't think a modem would work with those old crank sets!!
    	or does Sara patch you through first???
    
    Semi
    

    Sounds like a good issue to bring up in RUMOR::TELEWORK. Perhaps
    someone there has suggestions.
    
    			Alfred

    re: .0
    
    Many telco-watchers participate in BTOVT::TELEPHONES (general telephone
    information and issues).  They might have some insight into this as
    well.
    
    -- Russ

    New England Telephone's rule is that if you have a *restricted*
    service on one line (i.e., the basic monthly fee is less than
    that of the basic service) you can not have a second line with
    a higher grade service.  If all lines have at least basic service
    you can order extended services for any subset of the lines you wish.

New England Telephone's rules are of little use to .0, who is located in the
service area of the Chesapeake and Potomac Telephone Company.

I am not surprised that C&P would frown upon providing both unlimited and
limited service at the same premises, as N.E.T. does.  In New England, with
message units every five minutes, one would not normally want limited service
for a modem line, but in the D.C. local calling area, with untimed message
units, a line which might make only 20-30 calls a month, but each of them
very long calls, would be something C&P would not want to provide at a lower
rate than the other line, which probably puts less call-seconds on the network.

I do believe you were misinformed about the requirement that your second line
have any other optional features (such as Touch-Tone) that are provided on
your first line.

/john

>New England Telephone's rules are of little use to .0, who is located in the
>service area of the Chesapeake and Potomac Telephone Company.
>
>I do believe you were misinformed about the requirement that your second line
>have any other optional features (such as Touch-Tone) that are provided on
>your first line.


	I agree that the second line can have pulse only even if
	the first has T-T.  I used to live in the C&P service
	area (I even had an account on NEWVAX as .0 does) and
	I had two lines, one tt and one rotary with only a
	DF03 attached to it.  I seem to recall that to do it that
	way, C&P hads to send two separate bills rather
	than bill for two lines on one bill.  Maybe this is
	where tho confusion lies??

Frank

    I have 2 separate phone lines (though both are pulse) - one with
    discount calling etc.; the other with no extras. Each are separate
    phone bills. Both are from New England Telephone.
    

re .9

What is "discount calling?"  Do you mean "Bay State East" service, "Measured
Circle Calling", or what?

The only thing New England Telephone prohibits is a combination of measured
local service and unlimited local service at the same premises.

There is no requirement that all lines have all the "extra" features.

/john

    Bay State East. Sorry for the confusion -- I wasn't trying to be
    technically correct with names.
    

I have had two phones in my house for years. Both installed by NET and each with
it's own phone bill. One has mesaured local calling (or whatever it is called)
and one has unlimited local calling.

As someone pointed out - just keep calling NET until you find someone who isn't
a bureaucrat.

Another trick is to handle it like this: let's assume you already have one line
with unlimited local service. Order a second line. If they insist that the
second line have the same service then fine, have them install it. You'll get
a number phone number (i.e., an account number) and the second line will have
a separate bill from the first one. A month or two later, call them back and
tell them you'd like to change your phone service to mesaured local service
(or whatever you want) and be careful not to mention that you have two phone
lines. They'll ask for the phone number and make the change. They'll never
know that they are changing a "second line"...

-Glenn-

    Re: .12
    
    I suppose the $20 (or whatever) service change charge will pay
    for itself in a few months.

re .12

Are they both residential service?

/john

    Steve
    
    I have 2 lines in my house.  The one I use for the data line is a
    limited line in which I get a limited number of calls and charged for
    all over a certain rate.  I believe I remember some story from C&P
    about having to get the same or higher service.  But I talked them out
    of it and the second line is on a separate bill under my name only. 
    
    I would like to hear whether anyone has charged this to DIGITAL.  Can
    we do this?  
    
    Reda

You could get a "station off premise" phone line installed in your house that
DEC would be billed for (and presumably pay). A station off premise line is a
DTN in your house via a facilty near you. I'm sure there are restrictions on
how far away your house can be from a facility though.

I've never done it, but I wouldn't think your local phone company would mind
billing DEC as long as DEC approves...

-Glenn-

Forgot to mention that a station off premise line requires a few signatures, one
of which is your VPs...

-Glenn-

    re .16
    
    Yup, I do that.  I have a phone in my "office" with a different number
    from my home phone, and local area service (since I can dial a local FX 
    line and then DTN to the plant).  I just give DEC the whole bill each
    month - no hassle.  Of course I made sure my manager was amenable, but
    I've done this for close to 10 years and 4 organizations without
    problems.  Before that I used my regular line and just charged the DEC
    calls - also no problem (with DEC).
    
    /Dave

I thought that .16 was asking if the phone company would bill DEC directly for
the second line so filling out reimbursement forms, etc. wouldn't be needed. I
seem to recall a few folks telling me they were doing this, but that was about
10 years ago...

I've also been doing what .19 has been doing for years now and through three
different organizations. I must admit it is a hassle doing the paperwork each
month (although it sure beats paying for the line myself!). But I'd think that
a direct bill sent to the company would be cheaper than the overhead incurred
by the paperwork?

-Glenn-

    If Digital is billed directly for a home phone line, it costs the
    company close to $70 a month.  The same phone line, billed to an
    individual, is about $20 a month.  I would rather pay the bill myself
    and submit an expense voucher than have Digital pay an extra $50 with
    no additional benefits to the company.
    
    Another topic, I do draw the line with the corporate Diner's Club
    card.  If I order a plane ticket in advance to get a supersaver fare,
    I am responsible for paying the bill before I even take the trip and
    can claim the expense for reimbursement.  I don't think this is fair so
    I turned in my card.  I resent being responsible for Digital's
    accounting when I am trying to save money for the company.  I let
    Digital pay directly for my plane tickets, but it doesn't cost any more
    for DEC to do that.

Wait, you're saying the phone company charges $50 to bill the line to someone
else?

Even if they do, that is probably cheaper than the cost of processing the
paperwork internally. I understand that costs at least $50 per voucher...

-Glenn-

Re:< Note 1058.22 by CVMS::DOTEN "Right theory, wrong universe." >

>Wait, you're saying the phone company charges $50 to bill the line to someone
>else?

I think telco charges $20 for a residential line and $70 for the same
line if it is for business use. There may be some difference in the
number of outgoing calls per month without charge.... i.e. the
residential line may get 60 free outgoing calls and then there is a
per-call charge whereas the business line may have unlimited local calls.

Lee

    re: .-1
    
    My $20 phone line is unlimited calls.  Limited is around $13.
    
    re: .-2
    
    If it costs DEC $50 to process an expense voucher that an employee
    submits, how much do you think it costs DEC to bill the phone company?
    My guess would be at least the same.  So, $20 + $50 is cheaper than $70
    + $50 according to my math.  

>    My guess would be at least the same.  So, $20 + $50 is cheaper than $70
>    + $50 according to my math.  

I'm glad you're math is like the rest of ours...

It wasn't clear that the $50 was charged by the phone company just to bill DEC
or if it was for something else. That's why I asked...

-Glenn-

    
    The one good thing about having the employee submit it once a month is
    it ensures both he and his manager get a look at it. This was one of
    the reasons we (the MAA) changed from a corporate AT&T card to an MCI
    card sponsored by Digital but in the individual's name. With the AT&T
    card the user never saw what his monthly (and therefore yearly) bill
    was while with the MCI card he has to. This doesn't mean he's going to
    be reducing it but it at least gives him, and his manager, more
    information so he can make a rational business decision.
    
    The same thing goes for dial-in services. We (I.S.) currently provide
    an 800 number for dial-in to the data center and extended LAN. For the
    same reasons that I mentioned above the its removal is being
    considered. This attempts to make users more aware of the costs and
    ensures the correct cost center get's billed for the usage.
    
    -Ray
    
    

    
    >> With the AT&T card the user never saw what his monthly (and
    >> therefore yearly) bill was...
    
    That's interesting. We have an application here at APO that gives every
    manager a detailed accounting of every phone call charged to an
    employee's AT&T credit card. We keep a small database with the credit
    card numbers and the badge number of the employee to whom it was
    issued. Every month we get a tape from AT&T that gives us the credit
    card charges information. The report shows where the call was made from, 
    the called number, the city and state, elapsed time of the call, the
    time the call terminated and the cost. This is a part of the monthly 
    telephone usage report every manager here gets. It has certainly opened 
    some eyes up around here.
        
    I'm not saying that you shouldn't go with another carrier, but if your
    only reason for doing so is to get a detailed peek at your monthly
    phone credit card calls, there are other ways to do it as well.
    
    We have also implemented the 800-number dial-in capability and we're
    using basically the same program(s) as above to track these charges.

    
    How do you track the 800 number usage? Even if AT&T provides you a list
    of the numbers that called the 800 you'd have to have a complete
    database of user's phone numbers to be able to cross-reference them...
    
    Anyway, it isn't the only reason for the switch to MCI. MCI is a major
    customer in our area and they were getting touchy about how much they
    were spending with us and how little we were spending with them...
    Actually it's getting to the point that the discounts we get on the MCI
    cards many times are better than the 800 number rate...
    
    We also provide billing reports to the cost center manager but I'd say
    maybe 50% of them don't look at them. Having a $200 dollar phone charge 
    show up on your employee's expense voucher has a heck of a lot more
    impact that a single line-item on some report...
    
    -Ray
    
    

Re .28:

>    Anyway, it isn't the only reason for the switch to MCI. MCI is a major
>    customer in our area and they were getting touchy about how much they
>    were spending with us and how little we were spending with them...

Interesting; I wasn't aware Digital made kickbacks like that to customers in
order to secure business.
				/AHM

    re: .29
    
    Get real!
    
    Al
    

And besides, I'm sure that AT&T is an even bigger company in your area...

/john

    re : .28
    
    Yup, before we give an employee the 800 number, we ask what phone
    number they will be using to call in. We've only been doing this (800) 
    for a couple of months now and it seems to be working fine.
    

re: Note 1058.21 by CSSE32::RHINE "A dirty mind is a terrible thing to waste"

>    If Digital is billed directly for a home phone line, it costs the
>    company close to $70 a month.  The same phone line, billed to an
>    individual, is about $20 a month.  I would rather pay the bill myself
>    and submit an expense voucher than have Digital pay an extra $50 with
>    no additional benefits to the company.
    
    Not exactly.  While I generally agree that users _should_ see their own
    monthly bills, and thus have the bill sent home (if petty cash is
    inefficient that's a bigger problem!), the telephone company does not
    base its rate decision on where the bill goes!  This is a common
    misconception.
    
    A telephone line is billed as _business_ if it is a) at a business
    location; or b) used for principally business purposes.  However,
    calling up work, even the computer at work, is NOT "business purposes",
    since calling work is a normal thing to do from home.  That's why you
    can get use modems on a residential line.
    
    It does not matter who _pays_ for the line, either.  I used to do this
    for a living.  I have personally called up NET and ordered "1FR"
    (residentail) lines on behalf of employees, with a company address on
    the bill.  You just have to know how to do it, which is what telecom
    people are supposed to do for a living.
    
    Lots of people think we "owe" the phone company more than we do.
    
    Re:.29  I presume this is in jest; "reciprocity" is quite illegal!
    If MCI were holding up DEC purchases based on our purchases, then they
    could be in deep sneakers.  I trust they know better.
           fred (now back to the "shadows")

    re:  <<< Note 1058.29 by TLE::AMARTIN "Alan H. Martin" >>>
    
>Interesting; I wasn't aware Digital made kickbacks like that to customers in
>order to secure business.
    
    I'm sure you made this statement in jest, but there is a difference
    between a "reciprocal purchase arrangement" where two companies do
    business with each other to their mutual benefit, and a "kickback"
    which is an illegal and unethical practice.
    
    Some customers I work with (semiconductor and components companies
    mostly) have clauses in their bid process that favor vendors who are
    also customers in return.  Others use a more subjective approach.
    But it is still a far cry from kickbacks where vendors give people
    money or gifts for buying things not in the company's best interests.
    
    Geoff
    

    RE: .33
    
    The cases that I know where Digital has started paying the bill
    directly pay business rates rather than residential rates.  I wouldn't
    be so sure that the Digital people who order home lines know how to get
    a residential rather than a business line.
    

>    RE: .35
    
>    The cases that I know where Digital has started paying the bill
>    directly pay business rates rather than residential rates.  I wouldn't
>    be so sure that the Digital people who order home lines know how to get
>    a residential rather than a business line.
    
    I agree with that.  However, that is primarily a training problem
    amongst Digital's internal telecom people, not a question of telephone
    company policy.  (Hint:  You have to order residential lines through
    residential service centers, not the business sales offices that
    normally handle Digital's orders.)
    
    PS - reciprocal purchasing arrangements are illegal.  I think it's
    covered by the Uniform Commercial Code.