Conference 7.286::digital

    I would be willing to wager that the major obstacle in personnel's
    thinking is finanicaly related, is a wc2 is promoted to a wc4 more
    often than not money will be needed at once to bring the person
     up to the minimum in the wc4 range, at this time in our history,
    and the current business conditions  we need to change this rule,
    one way is to suspend the rule, the other is to explain to the employee
    that after the sal frezze ends they will be taken care of, this
    method has been approved of by local personnel, perhaps there is
    another reason.
    

    I don't think it's a policy that you can't promote a WC2 to a WC4; I
    suspect that it's as .1 indicated.  If that's the case, maybe your wife
    could talk to both personnel and the hiring manager to explain that
    that situation would be ok with her (if it is), with the understanding
    that things will get squared away when the freeze lifts.
    
    If it makes you feel any better, I have a friend who was a WC3 who was
    recently promoted into a WC4 position.  Don't know, however, how the
    financials were worked out.
    
    Jon

    re:  .0
    
    While you no doubt will get moral support from 'noters, I would
    also suggest elevating the issue.  From other notes, and from my
    own observation, it looks like WC2 people *can* be promoted to WC4
    if there is a valid business justification, freeze or no freeze.
    So the next step is to get a solid answer from the hiring manager,
    and inform them that you believe he is mistaken about the situation,
    and that you intend to go to the next level of management for some
    clarification.  Note the words "mistaken" and "clarification".
    
    The secret to making the ODP work is to use it in a way that is
    as non-confrontational as possible.  Even if you think there are
    personality issues involved, try to make the manager understand
    that you are not out to prove that the manager is *wrong*, but that
    you are trying to *understand* why there is contradictory information.
    In most cases, an employee is entitled to know who makes the policies
    and procedures that govern his working life;  in cases involving things
    like hiring and promotions, there are several reams of government rules
    and regulations that figure in as well.
    
    In short, you don't want to kick sand in the face of someone you (may)
    work for by using the ODP as a weapon.  You may win the battle, but
    you will almost certainly regret it in the long run ...
    
    Geoff
    

    
    	I was a WC2 and was promoted to a WC4 position. It depends on what
    	the position is. Believe me, you don't want to hear the details,
    	but I'll tell you one thing. The hiring manager has the power to
    	override Personnel that includes the VP. He may not know this.
    
    	/prc
    
    
    

    Re .0
    
    There are lots of avenues to explore.  The "easiest" is if someone
    is going from a high WC2 to an entry level WC4.  You didn't say
    what level (SRI) the WC4 job was - which could be the "problem"
    (multi-level jumps even within the same wage class aren't easy).
    
    The most important ingredient would be a hiring manager willing
    to "rock the boat" to do what's right for both the employee and
    the Company and who is also willing to negotiate.  Say the job 
    would involve a jump of 2 SRI's....and the hiring manager is
    convinced your wife is the best candidate....what's wrong with
    an agreement to relevel the position down one level and reevaluate
    performance in X number of months and uplevel the job at that time
    if justified?  If the hiring manager isn't willing to stick his/her
    neck out then maybe they wouldn't be that great to work for anyway.
    
    In the past 6 months I've helped 2 of my employees go from WC2 to
    WC4 positions - so it is possible and there are lots of options.
    Feel free to give me a call at (DTN) 223-3176 if you want to discuss
    further.
    
    Evelyn

    What does the REQ say about required "education or equivalent
    experience?"  Although we usually word the REQs loosely so we have
    some flexibility in hiring, personnel focuses in on matching the
    resume to the job requirements description - that is done to insure
    us against discrimination suites.
    
    The WC-2 to WC-4 smoke screen is just that.
    
    Current wage policy REQUIRES that an in-adequatecy of below minimum
    range be corrected within 90 days.  But, since the salary range
    for the new position has already been approved (hence the open REQ)
    there cannot be a problem in filling that REQ with someone from
    a lower salary range - the money has already been allocated!
    
    Good luck!

   I just moved from WC2 to WC4 (yup, I'm an engineer finally...) and there was
some concern in personnel about this transition without pay change.  I just
had to reassure them that the lack of immediate wage increase was alright for
me.  (Actually, I also went from NH to MASS and lost money, but let's not
talk about that... :-(

					-mjg

p.s.

   The moral seems to be that you have to talk to the hiring personnel rep.
and convince them that you're fully cognizant of any lack-of-pay-increase
issues which exist during the freeze and go for it!  (If you are worried about
the lack-of-increase, then don't do it!)

    
     re: .3
    
        What does ODP stand for....?
    
        thanks,
         vu
    

    re .8    ODP = Open Door Policy
    
    Several years ago, when I was a hiring manager, I hired an operator
    (WC2) into an entry-level programmer position (WC4). Base pay for
    the move was upwards, but since he was making overtime he had a
    net $ loss.  He understood this and was willing to make the move
    to get to a WC4 with attendant benefits.  
    
    We also hired in an outside college grad and made him an offer that
    was higher than the bottom of the range. Our personnel rep had fits,
    trotted out all kind of statistics to show where in the range all
    current employees were and said we "had to" lower the offer. I
    disagreed and, backed by my management, made the offer as planned.
    We got an excellent person that way. So I agree with a few notes
    back that said line management can override personnel when it makes
    sense.
    
    Good luck,
    	/Marvin

    
    I can only add my experience, for what it's worth.  I was finally moved
    from WC2 to WC4 back in June, after a little over three years of
    working towards that goal.  I was originally an Admin.Sec (G
    classification), and was told that I first had to move laterally to a
    technical classification (D) before I could be moved UP.  What I did
    was make it very clear to my supervisors that this was my goal. 
    Luckily, they were all very supportive, and set interim goals for me
    along the way.
    
    From what I've read and interpreted/understood, it's a lot more
    difficult to be 'promoted' through a job transfer rather than within
    your existing group.
    
    Sandy
    

    Hi,
    
    The entry you are reading was placed by my husband, though we mention 
    the obstacles that I have come up against, a number of my peers have 
    come against the same roadblocks.  We have WC2 people out here who 
    have valuable skills to offer at times like these.  
    
    In my 5 years at Digital I have seen many WC2 positions become much 
    more technical than when their job descriptions were created.  I know 
    this is being addressed with JEC.  I have seen college grad single 
    parents who have to reenter the workforce take entry level WC2
    positions as a way of getting into Digital, for the security, benefits
    and CAREER OPPORTUNITIES??? it has to offer.
    
    I am not trying to solve my problem, but rather try to get the
    attention of corporate to look at those qualified internally for 
    open reqs by lifting such barricades as the WC2-WC4 issue.  The 
    hiring manager understands his needs and if he feels the WC2 person 
    is the best candidate for the job he should be allowed to hire that 
    person.  
    
    As it stands now - it is considered a promotion if a WC2 is offered 
    a WC4 job.  Thus personnel requires the hiring manager to use one of 
    his promotions from his salary planning to bring this person on board.
    Even though the req was cut as a WC4 and money have been allocated in 
    the budget.  If such promotions no longer exist in his budget or if 
    he has already allocated these to certain members of his staff he is 
    forced to hire a current WC4 candidate.  Yes there is a hiring freeze 
    on - but in the past I have seen hiring managers have a much easier 
    time bringing on a temporary employee (external candidate) to fill 
    the slot than in pursuing a promotion upon transfer.
    
    I am in the process of pursuing this issue through the ODP.  As this 
    is a perfect time for Digital to be drawing upon its people resources 
    to ensure each individual employee is contributing all he/she can 
    to the success of the company.
    
    Thank you all for your inputs, suggestions, and sharing some of your 
    own personal experiences - it makes me a little more optomistic 
    knowing that some of you have managed to jump the hurdles personnel 
    has put in place - perhaps the secret of your success is to plan your 
    strategy and follow through.

    Hi Brenda. May I add that you also need patience and persistence.
    I went from WC2 to WC4, from Spitbrook to Merrimack, but it took
    close to six months to go through all the roadblocks. I wanted that
    job so badly I called the hiring manager weekly for all those six
    months, not letting him forget me because of all the hassles he
    was going through.
    
    Good luck and hang in there, it will happen!
    
    Estelle
    

    There's a difference between getting a promotion in your current job
    and changing jobs to one with a higher SRI, Wage Class, etc.
    
    At one time in Digital, there was a policy that any changes of job
    had to be "lateral", ie, the new job had to be at the same level,
    salary, etc. as the former one.  I believe this was to discourage job
    hopping within the company.
    
    I don't know if this policy applied to all organizations, or if it
    still stands, but this might be the impediment.

.13�    At one time in Digital, there was a policy that any changes of job
.13�    had to be "lateral", ie, the new job had to be at the same level,
.13�    salary, etc. as the former one.  I believe this was to discourage job
.13�    hopping within the company.
    
    There never was such a CORPORATE policy as far as my ex-personnel
    consultant can remember!  I have checked the orange book too.  And my
    impression is that my personnel consultant has been around in DEC for a
    while.  Some functionally similar organizations kept this policy
    sometimes to prevent people from job hopping.  But as it is seen in
    real life it only works to the detriment of these groups because there
    are other groups that will give you a promotion if they think you are
    worth it.

    
    re .13
    
    If such a policy did exist, I wouldn't be where I am today. In my
    opinion it is a non-policy that is used by managers as an excuse.
    Some believe the lie, some don't.
    
    /prc

    re.13
    
    I've been here over 20 years, (15 in management),and I never heard 
    of such a thing.
    
    
    Lou

    re: .13
    
    What I've heard around here:
    
    	1.  Internal transfers are normally lateral in nature
    	2.  If the transfer is not lateral, the potential manager must
    		meet with the current manager and determine if a promotion
    		is in order.  Only a one level promotion is acceptable.
    
    I've heard people say that #2 is too much work, so #1 often stands
    on its own.
    
    FWIW
    
    -- Russ

    Re: .17
    
    Just looks like a smarter version of the previous ``policy'' to BS to
    naive transferees.  The only people the hiring manager has to justify
    it is to his management chain and himself.  I know several cases where
    the current manager did not even know about the transfer conditions of
    the resigning employee.  The current managers duties are explicitly 
    discussed in the orangebook and only relate to terms of remaining work
    to be completed before transfer and the transfer date.
                                              

	I've heard that all transfers must be latteral.
	I've heard that 1 step is the max.
	I know someone who made a 2 step move.

	I believe that there are a lot more mythilogical policy regarding
	transfers than actuall policies. What matters most is what the
	hiring manager believes. Most people take what Personal says as
	gospel. That is not always the best course. If a policy doesn't
	sound right (too good or too bad to be true) maybe it isn't right.
	Ask to see it in writing. Real policies are written down.

			Alfred

    I have heard of several 3 level moves as well.  As has been mentioned,
    the justification needs only be done on the hiring manager's side.
    
    Dave

    I know someone who has a two-level move in his past.  When interviewing
    for a new position, the manager looked at the jump he made (on his
    resume) and commented to him that it is "no longer allowed".
    
    -- Russ

        I have had two 2-level promotions in the past, and see no reason
        why I can't do it again (when the time is right...)
        
        q
        

    
    What do you mean by level? Under the old job codes I rose from
    a J87 to a J13. That could be three to four levels at least.
    
    /prc