Conference 7.286::digital

    
    This sounds very much like what both Tandem and Data Terminals did
    for quite a while.  Sadly to say Data Term. is out of business and
    Tandem doesn't do it anymore,  in both cases economics caught up
    to them.

    Unless this can be tied into DIGITAL's Way of Doing Business, I don't
    see that the discussion is appropriate to this notes conference.
    
    my .02,
    Marge

    
    .2
    
    It's simply an interesting observation on ways of improving
    employee motivation!                             
    
    Maybe supervisors or manager's could do something fun like 
    having a group cookout or softball game after work. It
    WOULD be nice to have something to look forward to
    instead of bad news all the time. 
    
    Why be so picky over a innocent suggestion? Gee whiz, let's
    hear something nice in here!  Morale is a big part of work. 
    
    My 2 cents...........
    

re: .2...Getting testy, Marge? 8-)

I think that discussions of other companies' "benefits" with respect to Digital
is important.  As pointed out in the Pepsico note, Digital is cutting, 
restricting, freezing, and delaying while other companies are being innovative
in their ways of getting more out of their employees.  Looking at others is a
good way for us individually to look at our feelings of why we are here (or
may leave) and this self-examination (at least in my case) motivates me to help 
as I can get Digital back on the curve so we too can have some of the luxuries
we've enjoyed in the past.

And that's my $.02

BobW

    Perhaps, then, the note could be re-titled..."Means of Improving
    Morale" ?  
    
    Marge

	Take the Salem plant for example. All we have is a couple of baseball
	fields, some tennis courts, a basketball hoop or two. Can't compare
	with a racquette ball court but it's not so bad.

	Quarterly lunches, while a thing of the past, were held here for
	years. We still usually have our annual picnic and inter-group
	sporting events. So maybe it's not a pig roast but than NIO has
	a lot more people working in it than CONVEX has people period.

	I hear that Nautalus and/or free weights are in the works here. ZKO
	has them already. Aerobics are held here (and ZKO) already.

	We do have our annual Canobie Lake outing too. The posters are up
	with Salem's date so I assume it's still on.

	Now not to many manufacturing or engineering people get to go on
	great all expense paid trips but I'll bet that the number of 
	sales people who do is greater than the number (not as a % but as
	a raw number) that Convex takes.

	BTW, I once worked at a company with regular week-end bashs. No one
	works there now, they folded.

			Alfred

	RE: .5 I changed the title. Better? :-)

			Alfred

    all better, Alfred... :^)

    I REALLY doubt that the afore-mentioned companies folded due to
    the parties that they were throwing...
    
    Joe

	I don't believe that the company I worked for folded *because*
	of the parties. Rather I think the parties were an example of
	paying too much attention to the wrong things. If they'd done
	more planning of bids and less effort on partying after winning
	them then perhaps they would have made money on them. There are
	a lot of companies that pay so much attention to the frills and
	niceities that they neglect the necessities.

			Alfred

    I for one remain monumentally unimpressed by companies which brag
    about the long hours their people put in, and then award them with
    beer busts or the equivalent.  It looks to me like a very effective
    form of exploiting naive employees.  It's certainly cheaper than
    staffing properly.

    > I for one remain monumentally unimpressed by companies which brag
    > about the long hours their people put in, and then award them with
    > beer busts or the equivalent.  It looks to me like a very effective
    > form of exploiting naive employees.  It's certainly cheaper than
    > staffing properly.
    
    It has always amazed me that many managers want to reward long hours
    with more long hours.  Yes, when the company throws a party to
    celebrate the end of a long project that kept everyone away from their
    homes and families, what does the party do except keep them away from
    their homes and families some more???  Weekends out of town are the
    same, only worse.  In fact, I've participated in *mandatory* "reward"
    weekends since I've worked at Digital.  Isn't that amazing???
    
    If Digital wants to reward me for long, hard hours, a day or two at
    home is the best reward they could give me (assuming $$$ is not an
    option).
    
    							Pat

    

    
    This reminds me of what I've read about Japanese companies.
    
    It is mandatory, though unspoken, that at the end of every business
    day, all managers will adjourn to a nearby bar and stay there until
    11:00pm, drinking with the (respective) boss and "getting down."
    
    To me, this is horrible. In effect, there is no personal life for
    anyone who wishes to "move up." Home and family are in third place,
    behind job (#1) and job (#2). Then, too, how'd you like to be required
    to get shitfaced every night?
    
    There has been a lot written about how "competitive" the Japanese
    are, in part because if this system of Job as Life. Perhaps in the
    shorter run they are competitive. But how competitive can they be
    in the long run when their families are all "single-parent" homes?
    
    
    Ken
                                 

>    It is mandatory, though unspoken, that at the end of every business
>    day, all managers will adjourn to a nearby bar and stay there until
>    11:00pm, drinking with the (respective) boss and "getting down."

    Though it's far from mandatory, it happens quite often in Engineering
    (at least here) but not everyday either. I think it's great. Sometimes
    'management' shows up, and that's cool.

    About a company's competitivity and its employees working long hours:
    I'm absolutely convinced, and there seems to be stuff in the
    litterature that supports this point of view, that a company's
    competitivity is DIRECTLY tied to the amount of unpaid overtime its
    employees put in. There are exceptions, and Digital isn't probably one
    of them. The 'take it easy' approach that many Digital employees follow
    these days is not irrelevant to the company's performance.

    Denis.

    It is apparent that the writher of .13 has minimal understanding
    of either the ethnic culture or work environment in Japan.  
    
    Jananese business men do not get @#$%&@$%# every night and stay
    in bar's to 11:00PM each night.  It is important to both their culture
    and work environment that their work-day extend into having a meal
    and sharing saki together.  Their work ethic is build around depending
    on others and a deep commitment to the company team.  When you try
    to place US cultural values on another country's culture, expecially
    when you have minimal first-hand knowledge of the customs, culture
    or environment, you may make poor assumptions.  At best we can say
    that their environment is drastically different than ours, until
    they see that it doesn't work, the culture will not change.  It
    has been tradition in Japan that businessmen always meet after the
    formal work day to socialize; it's been going on for hundreds of
    years and probably will not change in many years to come.
    
    Regarding the comment of single-parent families, again the Japanese
    culture does not support that environment.  For the most part, men
    work and their wives maintain the home.  Again, most women do not
    work; and if they do, after they marry, they resign and maintain
    the home.  It will take many years until the culture (Work/Personal)
    accepts women business professionals.  Those are their values and
    culture; it is different from ours (thankfully), and for a company
    in the US to be successful in the Japanese marketplace, we have
    to gain understanding of and work within their culture.  Otherwise,
    we will get what is called the "DEC-Nod" when we violate their business
    norms.  
    
    Although I personally don't agree with their business environment,
    I accept that to do business in that environment, I must both
    understand and accept their customs and work within their environment.
    
    This is a "for what it's worth" statement, as opposed to my agreement
    with the process.
    
    Jay

    .14, I just can't agree with you.  In Germany people start with
    6 weeks vacation, get more Holidays, work 37.5 hours a week, and
    are locked out of the building evenings and week-ends.  Yet, I
    think you will find that from a productivity standpoint they make
    us look poor.  Oh, I forgot to mention, they get more money that
    we do also.  The same is generally true in most Western European
    countries.  Five weeks vacation is very common in the U.K. f'instance.
    
    

    The initial vacation entitlement in the UK is 22 days, working up to 26
    after 5 years.
    
    5 weeks vacation is therefore only common to 5-year DECcies in the UK.
    
    - ���

For information, here's a more detailed breakdown of UK holiday
entitlement (I'm taking this from `Digital and You', the UK policies
and procedures handbook).

Basic Holiday Entitlement:	20 days
Company Holiday (usually 
  given at Xmas):		 2 days
Extra Hols for 3 yrs service:	 2 days
Extra Hols for 5 yrs service:	 3 days
UK Public Holidays:		 8 days

So, for someone like myself with 5 years service total holiday time
amounts to 35 days per year.

We can carry forward up to 5 days unused holiday into the next
calendar year, or more unused holiday if it's signed-off by a certain
level of management.

Mick

    Re:last, Digital & you appears to be out of date. The Personnel
    policies and procedures (Blue book) list annual vacation thus;
    
    "From Christmas 1985 permanent full time employees are entitled
    to twenty-four working days per year..." "Three of these days
    will be determined by the company" (That is, Christmas)
    
    Service days accrue at 3 years (2 days) and 5 years (5 days)
    (Extracted from Section 4.04, dated July 86)

    > The initial vacation entitlement in the UK is 22 days, working up to 26
    > after 5 years.
    
    > 5 weeks vacation is therefore only common to 5-year DECcies in the UK.
      ^^^^^^^                                      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    
    Gee, dows that mean that if I work in the UK for DEC for 52 years, I
    would get 52 weeks of vacation }8-)}
    
    
    					Bill

    re .20: You'd be sent to vacation for the rest of your life... which
    amounts approximately to the same as 52 weeks per year.
    

    The topic has digressed from the original note and its applicability to
    Digital groups (that's how large Convex is !) into working hours,
    japanese culture, UK vacation, etc.
    
    Getting back.. one can see how much of positive impact a little bit of
    enthusiasm and 'fun mixed with work' has !!  Our group for instance
    every year has a 'family picnic' (not the canobie lake park) and my
    manager specifically calls for a 'pizza party' almost every quarter. 
    The morale is high and the people are 'excited' about working hard for
    such a manager.  so i don't think its a question of how many hours you
    work, but whether you work because you are forced to or because you
    like it and enjoy it.
    
    (Yes, I have heard a story about Digital getting sued in germany
    because an employee was found working on a weekend - talk about
    'absurdity'. No flames please.)
    
    - mayank  
    

    re .22: [Moderators: I think this has been discussed elsewhere - feel
    free to move!]
    
    It's not a story, though Digital has not (yet) been actually sued as
    far as I know. However, working on weekends is not allowed, and the
    management constantly keeps reminding us about it. The guards are
    allowed to let people inside the building (like if you need to collect
    personal items) but check that you leave again very soon; otherwise you
    are in trouble.
    
    And no, they don't send the police to your home to check you're not
    working there.
    
    
    

>    The guards are
>    allowed to let people inside the building (like if you need to collect
>    personal items) but check that you leave again very soon; otherwise you
>    are in trouble.
    
The guards? The guards work on weekends? They can do that? (v8

- George    
    
    

    re .23
    
    what's the motivation behind that 'law' (i am assuming its a law) ? may
    be you can explain. (are you writing from germany?)  this means you
    can't come in when you are on 'vacation' too!! - like some people do come 
    in when they are just in town.
    
    anyway, that is not relevant to 'corp culture' discussion.

    re group get-togethers :
    
    Last year there was a fiscal year-end party planned. It was cancelled
    on account of a rain forecast.
    
    It did not rain.  We still did not have the party.
    
    This year there wasn't even any discussion of a get- together.
    
    What a fun group.
    
    karl in TUO

re: .25:
    what's the motivation behind that 'law' [work hours rules]

There are several: people who work 60 hour weeks get sick and end up
costing the general populace (which pays for health insurance).  They
also burn out so they're not productive in the long term.  They also
displace other workers (two people working 60 hour weeks is roughly
equivalent to three working 40 hour weeks).  This is important to a
society that has full-employment as a goal.  Also, by not "consuming"
leasure-time activities, the worker-bee is not creating jobs for others --
again contributing to unemployment (or not contributing to employment,
as it were).  You may also remember recent discussions in Digital.note
on people who are too tired to drive home: is this good for them, their
families, or Digital.

There are implications for Digital.  "Work smarter, not harder" and
"careful planning and scheduling" are the obvious ones.

Martin.

Re: .27

>There are implications for Digital.  "Work smarter, not harder" and
>"careful planning and scheduling" are the obvious ones.

Sometimes plans and schedules don't work out, and then what?  I feel an
obligation to the many people who use the product I'm responsible for, and
I want to do anything I can to make it high quality software.  That's why I've
been working nights and weekends for the last six or seven months.  If I
were limited to 40 hour weeks I'd probably start looking for another job --
it would be just too stressful having to deal with a huge QAR backlog without
being able to do anything about it.

And yes, from time to time people have warned me of the danger of becoming
burned out.

				-- Bob

    But if the projects were realistically planned/resourced, there should
    be no need at all to exceed 40 hours!
    
    DEC has a history of relying upon its employees to go at least one
    extra yard - and that damages the health of anyone caught up in this
    scenario beyond a reasonably short period.
    
    I REALLY appreciate all the work you have put in, Bob - but had you
    realistic timescales, you might have had a social life too....
    
    - ��� (Who hasn't done as little as a 40 hour week in 6 years at DEC)

RE .23,.27:

Excuse me, I just picked up this topic... but what's this stuff about
not being allowed to work evenings and weekends? At first I thought it
was a joke, but you guys sound serious.

If true, this is the most gigantic infringement of human rights. Work
is the right of every individual, and it is entirely up to them how long
they wish to do it.

Only in the darkest and most cynical of science fiction satires have I
come across such a suggestion (e.g. "Harrison Bergeron"). All this stuff
about long hours harming your health is garbage. I have been working average
50-60 hour weeks (with the odd 70) for Digital since 1974, and I am in
good shape. (A bit overweight, but less so than most 40-hour-a-week salesmen).
As for the cost of health care, when are they going to stop people eating
sugar, salt and fats, force them to exercise, and stop them worrying?

Where do these laws exist?

--Tom

    Germany.

    re .30
    
    Your cultural provincialism would appear to be showing.
    Just because you find that such rules would be an "infringement"
    of your "rights" here (i.e., the U S of A, if that needs to be
    stated), it doesn't follow that everywhere in the world would
    find it thus.
    
    If the statement of a goal of full employment is indeed a
    motivating factor (I don't know any more about this than
    I have read here) then perhaps American society can be viewed
    as an impossibly selfish one, in which some persons hoard the
    sacred right to work at the expense of others.
    
    The concept of "human rights" is not the same from country
    to country.  For all I know, German citizens view it as
    a "right" to have a decent amount of vacation, rather than
    a pitiful two weeks when you start your job.  Maybe they
    view it as a "right" to have reasonable state health care.
    
    I didn't mean this to turn into a knock-the-USA note [buy me
    a beer or two and I'll be happy to oblige! :-)], just to 
    point out that your rights are not the same as everyone
    elses.   The right to work long hours doesn't figure
    too highly on my list, actually!
    
    

>Work is the right of every individual

The trade unions in Germany would agree with you, but their particular brand of
socialism also would deny that

>it is entirely up to them how long they wish to do it.

under the premise that every individual will only be able to enjoy the right to
work if the State regulates the working hours so that noone exploits other
people.  Employers may not exploit workers by forcing them to work long hours,
and workers may not exploit other workers by taking more than their fair share
of the available hours of work.

>As for the cost of health care, when are they going to stop people eating
>sugar, salt and fats, force them to exercise, and stop them worrying?

See topic 233 in this conference.  To be fair, be sure you read reply 233.61
if you get tired of wading through all the flames following 233.0.

As dave porter points out, the rest of the world doesn't necessarily see things
the way you do.  Bertolt Brecht, the hero of German trade unions, added the
following note to the introduction of "Der gute Mensch von Sezuan" (The Good
Woman of Szechuan) after China became socialist in 1949:  "The province of
Szechuan in this parable, which stood for all places where people are exploited
by people, no longer is one of these places."

Nothing in this reply should make you believe that I always see eye to eye with
German trade unions or agree with Bertolt Brecht's analysis of whether people in
Szechuan are exploited or not.  But socialism is better discussed in EF89 or
Soapbox.

    I guess John, Martin et al already said most of what I could have said.
    
    I just want to clarify a couple of things (to get at least back to the
    topic of this conference, if not this note):
    
    Most German companies have a 37.5 or 38.5 hour workweek (Digital is one
    of the few, probably the only one in computer business who has a 40 hr
    week). In my opinion, if someone has to work say, 50-60 hours a week
    for an extended period, it's a management failure. If the individual
    agrees with it (and gets compensated in some way) then that's fine with
    me (though not necessarily with the German law).
    
    And believe me, Digital employees in Germany are just as responsible
    employees as everyone else. The way most people here look at things is
    certainly different, and the priorities they set in life may also be
    different.
    
    To clarify the law a bit, let me say that overtime as such is of course
    not forbidden. Only no one can be made to do it (exceptions are certain
    'emergency' situations which could seldom occur in a company like
    Digital) against his/her will. If the employee agrees, overtime still
    has to be approved by the Betriebsrat (works council), who usually has
    no reason not to agree, assuming no laws are being broken (like
    exceeding a maximum limit of overtime for the specific person). If the
    work is to be performed on Sunday(s), Digital would have to get
    permission from a government agency (Gewerbeaufsichtsamt, I believe).
    
    And in any case, overtime has to be compensated for, either in form
    of money of time off.
    
    This is of course just a rough overview, relevant Digital policies and
    German laws fill books...
    
    

    Work more than 40 hours/week - for-get-it. I went thru that once before
    for a 20 year period and all it got me was a medical retirement. Now I
    am left with 1/2 or a stomach - had to have the other half removed due
    to ulcers caused by stress caused by the job and worry about deadlines
    not being met due to lack of help because of the CAN-DO-ATTITUDE
    displayed by the dept and dept manager. I now work for DEC on a 40 HOUR
    WEEK - MONDAY THRU FRIDAY BASES and that is all I do. Now being a wage
    class two working in a wage class three position (due to TMP) any thing
    over 40 hours is overtime and nowhere in my job discription does it say
    that I "MUST" work overtime. I now believe that if the job can't be
    done in the required time period with the alotted number of people then
    it's time to either review the job and work procedures or review and
    update the work force itself. If one wants to work in an enviorment
    that unoffically requires you to work more than the allotted 40
    hours/week or if you are so insecure in your position in life, I
    suggest that you take a leave of absents and go to Japan and work for one
    of the large corps over there and use the experience as work related
    study time. I'm sure that some kind of arrangement could be made so you
    could come back to DEC and pick-up where you left off.
    Just keep one thing in mind - There is work time and there is play time
    and never the two should mix. All work and no play makes Jack a very
    dull boy.
    
    Jan
    
    there for a year or two 

    re: .35---I don't agree that you should not mix work and play.  My job
    and my hobby both involve working with computers, and I enjoy my work
    so much that I appreciate the opportunity to work 45-50 hours per week.
    
    One thing, though: I don't get upset when things are going badly in the
    work environment.  If a schedule slips because a manager insisted on
    an unrealistic schedule, that's the manager's problem, not mine.  I'm
    not going to work overtime to make an incompetent manager look good.
    Doing that encourages them to do it again.  On the other hand, I am
    willing to work long hours, on a temporary basis, to make _my_
    deadlines.
    
    Consider this: some of the most intelligent people in the world
    (DEC employees) are working full-time to produce better toys for me
    to play with.  That's my attitude, and that's why I like working here.
        John Sauter

re .32:

>    Your cultural provincialism would appear to be showing.
>    Just because you find that such rules would be an "infringement"
>    of your "rights" here (i.e., the U S of A, if that needs to be
>    stated), it doesn't follow that everywhere in the world would
>    find it thus.

Actually, I'm British, and I work in Basingstoke, England.

I don't believe you can be entirely relative about human rights. After all,
if you were to apply the above argument to the societies of South Africa,
USSR, China, Cambodia...etc., most reasonable people would agree that the
American values were better in some real sense (including the majority
of the inhabitants of those countries).

So, I reject "cultural provincialism" strongly. I was born in Argentina,
and have lived in a number of continents. I have a degree in history, which
bespeaks a fairly wide understanding of different cultures. None of this
stops me having definite *preferred* values.

I find it hard to see how legal restriction of hours worked fits in with
the values of Digital. "Do what's right but at 5 o'clock pack it in and
go home", maybe?
    
>    The concept of "human rights" is not the same from country
>    to country.  For all I know, German citizens view it as
>    a "right" to have a decent amount of vacation, rather than
>    a pitiful two weeks when you start your job.  Maybe they
>    view it as a "right" to have reasonable state health care.

Here in Britain Digital employees get 4-5 weeks' vacation, plus 3 company
holidays (usually around Christmas). That's enough that we aren't desperate
to use every minute of it. We often sympathise with you Americans, because
2 weeks seems far too little. One year I might take 2 weeks, another I might
take 6 weeks (1 carried over). I have no objection to vacations. But... how
would you like to be forced to take them at a given time? That would be
analogous to the German working restrictions.

In Britain we also have an excellent state health care system. It isn't
perfect, of course - there are waiting lists. People can choose whether to
use it or go private - if they can afford it.

In both these areas - vacation and health care - we have CHOICE. What I
have trouble with (in fact what really shocked me) is that it can be
*illegal* to work outside prescribed hours. For instance... non-work-
related conferences should not be read during working hours. But if you're not
allowed access to your terminal *outside* working hours, that effectively
prevents you reading non-work-related notes. It gets worse. I quite often
read conferences (like this one) which are related to our business but not
directly in my line of work. In an informal tradeoff, I compensate by
working late (till 9 or 10) and going home when there's no traffic. In fact
I find it quite hard to prepare a presentation or do original thinking during
office hours, because of the continual interruptions and distractions.
I sometimes come in on Sundays to work on my chess program. How can such
activities as these be illegal in what I thought was a democracy?

Thinking further... what about the self-employed? Do the secret police
spy on writers, composers and consultants to make sure they don't work at
home during weekends?

The whole thing just seems to reflect the old military joke, "Everything is
either compulsory, or it's forbidden". But it's a salutory lesson in how
different things can be in what you thought was a country just like your
own.

--Tom

Thanks to the person who pointed me to topic 233. Having read that, I have a
better picture of German society and ways of thinking.

It's an interesting exercise to imagine what aspects of British culture and
law would offend people from other countries. Possibly unemployment? Still
I reject the facile suggestion that limiting me (and any number of others)
to 40 hours a week would have any effect on unemployment. For one thing,
few if any of the unemployed have the necessary skills and attitudes - there
is a serious shortage of staff in the computer industry, and many of the open
posts pay more than Digital offers. For another, we have a hiring freeze,
based on the high incremental long-term cost of each new employee. This
is not changed by my doing slightly less work (at a slightly less hectic
pace).

--Tom

Hmm, interesting.  Two Brits and each one addressing the other as if
the latter were American!  How embarrassing.

I don't disagree that some rights are "universal", for example the
right to assemble without the government having the Army leave
tank-tracks on your body and bicycle.    However, that doesn't
hold true for what one might term the lesser rights.

I'd even agree that the right to work might be considered universal,
but that doesn't necessarily imply an unlimited right to work.

And I too have a set of preferred values.  "It's illegal to work late"
sounds downright weird to me too.  However, the point I meant to make
was that such a law should be seen as a choice made by society,
and not as some sort of infringement of human rights.

[The UK national health system can no longer be considered as excellent. 
 It's going to hell in a handbasket, unfortunately, and I'd contend
 that it's largely due to the policies of the Iron Lady.  But maybe
 we'd better not discuss that here, unless you can think of a way
 to disguise it as a discussion of "DEC medical benefits in the UK"].

    I don't feel at all comfortable with the idea of working outside hours
    as 'illegal'.  FWIW, I'm writing this on Saturday.  I've come in to
    tidy a few things up before next week because I've been very busy and I
    know I'll be busy again.  Noone made me come in.  In fact, under our
    labor laws I can't be made to work weekends.  
    
    However, fortunately my management is fairly flexible, and where job
    pressures effectively force work outside normal hours it usually is
    balanced by time off when I need it.  I did one tender where I worked
    over five weeks without a break, but that means I've got time owing to
    me I can call on.  I think this is the sort of balance needed between
    the desire to get the job done, and the desire not to exploit people.

    There are organizations in Digital where the pressure is on
    permanently.  Overtime has always been required in this company, at
    least as long as I've been here.  Employees have always been expected
    to do whatever it takes to get the job done.  But for the first 10 or
    so years I worked here, it was as described in .-1.  You worked long
    hours without weekends off during heavy periods (such as to get
    something out the door), then you got breathing space for a while when
    things slacked off.
    
    There are organizations today (and I'm not in one, but the Sales
    Support organization comes to mind immediately) where 70 hours a week
    is expected and required to get the job done, 52 weeks a year.  And
    even putting in 70 hours a week, the people can't keep up with the work
    load.  Many of them have been doing this for a couple of years and they
    are becoming totally burned out and looking for ways to leave Sales
    Support.  Their family lives have suffered, they are physically and
    mentally exhausted, and just generally fed up.
    
    I do not totally blame Digital management for this situation.   I think
    a lot of it is due to the pressures we're getting from the Wall Street
    analysts to improve short-term profits, and also the pressure caused by
    global competition (read that Japan).  If blame belongs on Digital
    management, it is for keeping a tremendous excess of top-level
    management and staff jobs in place when there is such a dire need for
    more people at the individual contributor level.
    
    Just my 2 cents worth.
    
    							Pat

1.  For those who can't imagine any reason why a law limiting hours on the job
might be legitimate, consider that the arguments you are making were also made
by opponents of child labor, by opponents of unions, by opponents of all sorts
of industrial safety regulations, and so on.

There is no doubt at all that all such regulations can, in some small sense,
decrease productivity.  Nevertheless, we as a society accept them, implicitly
saying that productivity is not the only, or even the most important, goal in
life.  We are not machines, and we don't live our lives for the sake of maxi-
mizing economic output.


What we are arguing about here is not a matter of principle - though there
certainly ARE people who want to argue the principle; certainly a Libertarian
would - but where to draw the line.  It's obvious that different cultures have
chosen to draw those lines differently.  It's also clear from the data that
simplistic arguments about regulations and productivity are wrong:  Germany is
much more highly regulated and regimented than the US, but it's doing just
fine.  For that matter, on a smaller scale, so are the Scandinavian countries,
which can make Germany seem wide open.

2.  Certain kinds of behavior tend to dominate in the marketplace.  Working
long hours is an example:  Over the short term, the company whose people put
in the long hours will get the proposal in sooner, will have shorter time
estimates, will have lower labor costs.  There's a ratcheting effect:  In
each case, you only need a small increment over the other guy to win.  Over
the longer term, all those little increments add up.

Also over the long term, this process falls under the classic economic example
known as the tragedy of the commons:  There's a commons owned by the community
on which all farmers may graze their animals.  It is obviously to any single
farmer's advantage to graze as many animals as he can.  But if every farmer
pursues his private advantage, eventually the commons will be grazed out and
everyone will lose.

Statistics show that the average workweek for an American professional has gone
up significantly over the past 20 years or so.  (I don't recall the exact num-
bers, but they've been widely published and I've seen no one contesting them.)
There is obviously some substantial cost to "the common good" in this.  Can
anyone really claim that we've gained anything as a result?  Our productivity
has gone up more slowly than that of other countries; it's gone up more slowly
than it has historically in the US.

3.  The group I started with at DEC had a cost center manager with a simple
motto:  "If you are working overtime, your manager screwed up."  He really
believed this, and the managers in the group really acted on it.  We were
known for getting things done "on time and on budget", but in 4 years I
worked overtime only a couple of times, on truely unanticipatable kinds of
things.  DEC actually paid for my dinners on those occaisions.

BTW, when I say overtime I mean by the traditional measure:  We worked M-F,
8:30-5:00 or so.  By 5:30, the place was deserted.  No one came in over the
weekend.  The cost center would not provide terminals for people to take
home.  (Of course, this was 10-12 years ago and terminals and slow modems
were quite expensive.)

Some of the policies changed gradually; many of us WANTED terminals at home,
for example.  Others eventually disintegrated under the pressure of the
surrounding environment.  The same manager has since moved up a couple of
levels, but as far as I can tell his ideas about overtime have faded into the
mist.

4.  It's nice to imagine that you work all those long hours by your own
choice.  But how much choice do you really have in the matter?  If everyone
else in your group is working 60 hour weeks, how long do you think your
"falling behind" will, in practice (whatever any policies might say) be tole-
rated as you work your 40?

Managers vary, groups vary, but a gross mismatch in the effort different
group members put in is not a stable situation.  Since the external rewards
are results-driven, it will always be the "harder workers" whose views win
out in the long run.

This, BTW, is another aspect of a point I made earlier:  Longer hours dominate
in the marketplace.

5.  There ARE managers who are very aware of all this, and make full use of
it.  I used to have a copy of an article from Datamation posted on the wall
outside my office.  This was in 1979 or 80, and I no longer have a copy; one
of these days perhaps I'll try to run it down in the library.

Anyhow, the author was a manager of programmers, describing his techniques
for getting people to work incredible hours.  All sorts of tricks that are
obvious once mentioned.  His basic view:  Expect to burn many of your people
out.  No big deal, there are plenty more where they came from.  If you find
any that DON'T burn out - great, they form the basis of your next group,
all ready to "set a good example".

Fortunately, we don't seem to have many like that at DEC (though some of the
stories from the field make me worry).  But realize that people like this,
plenty of them, DO exist and are considered highly valuable commodities in
much of the industry:  They are they ones who get stuff done under "impossible"
schedule constraints.

The Germans have apparently decided that there is no room in their society for
this kind of manager.  While I don't approve of the way they have decided to
eliminate this particular form of abuse, I must admit to a certain admiration
of their willingness to face the issue.
							-- Jerry

    Re .42
    According to your's and many other replies, the motivation behind the
    law would seem to be "prevention of exploitation by ruthless
    employers".  But that's not the issue here.  The real issue is: how do
    you (or a society) go about preventing abuse of workers ? By outlawing
    working during a certain period of the week ?  That seems absurd !!
    
    As Tom Welsh asked: what about the self-employed ? how do you prevent
    them from working >40 hrs/wk and stealing employment from their
    'brothers' ? and what if I want to take Mon or Tues off because my
    father-in-law is in town (or I want to play golf) and make it up on
    Sat?  Better yet, what if I want to come in on weekends to work on my
    'hobby' (or draw a nice picture to send to my niece) ?  Why should the
    govt dictate *when* I take time off, in addition to *how* much time
    off?
    
    Surely, have VERY strict laws (with *very* stiff penalties) to deal
    with abuse of workers by employers, but this ???  
    
    - mayank
    

re: .43
I don't like the German approach of doing it all through the legal system; I
said as much.  What you are illustrating once again is the fundamental problem
with laws:  The reality will always be more complex than any static law can be
expected to deal with.

The US is not without laws of this general sort.  There are many laws regulating
home work.  These date back to a time when mills would pay low piece-work rates
to women who did knitting and sewing for them at home.  Today, the laws are
being attacked by individuals who WANT to do this kind of work at home, and
fell that they are not being abused.  The unions feel the situations is inhe-
rently subject to abuse - no way for workers to organize; no way for them even
to get in touch with each other, in general - and are fighting hard to retain
them.  Meanwhile, some of these laws are broad enough to make computer work at
home illegal.

I say I don't like this approach, but I say it quietly because I for one know of
no good alternative.  It's nice to talk in theoretical terms about agreements
entered freely by workers and employers, but the disparity in economic power
is so overwhelming as to render this model of no real value.  I don't know
about you, but I certainly didn't negotiate my employment contract with DEC -
I was handed pre-printed forms which I could sign if I wanted to work here.
That I have no particular problems with the terms of my contract is not the
issue; I really had no choice.

Historically, three mechanisms have controlled excesses in the workplace:
Social pressures (only at the top end, though); unions; and laws.  Unions end
up being about as flexible as laws.  Social pressures these days seem to have
mainly disappeared as effective regulators, part of the increasing formaliza-
tion of inter-group relationships in our society.

I wish I knew of a good alternative.  There are times when I see this as a
mark of the perhaps irreversible decline of our society and way of life.

							-- Jerry

    I started this whole German thing, so thought I would jump in again.
    I think laws like they have in Germany are highly desirable as they
    prevent the kind of self-abuse (50-70 hr weeks) outlined in so many
    places in this topic.  Our problem is still that most of the abused
    still don't see it that way.....too much Pilgrim ethic or something.
    
    What bothers me even more is our medieval approach to vacations.
     My nephew in Germany, who receives six weeks vacation in his first
    year on the job, wasn't a bit apologetic.  He very strongly defended
    the need for six weeks, under the premise that they worked so hard
    during the rest of the year.  He literally did not believe me when
    I told him about two weeks vacation for the first five years.
    
    Two more thoughts..."Your failure to plan adequately (manager),
    does not constitute an emergency for me."
    
    .....anyone working the kind of hours I'm hearing about is entitled
    to an overtime meal allowance.  Check it out in the Orange Personnel
    Manual.

    By the way, we DO have this sort of regulation in the good ol' USA -
    it's called union work rules.  During my college career, I work for a
    while as a clothing salesman at Brooks Brothers in N.Y.C.  Union rules
    prohibited starting early (if not on the opening shift  and required me
    to take ALL of my lunch hour.  This was to allow those who wanted a
    full lunch top take it without fear of unfair competition.
    
    -dave
    

    re .45
    
    Overtime meal allowance?  Haven't been inhaling any illegal vegetable
    matter have we?  Geez, have you EVER tried to get overtime anything as 
    a WC4?  We're SALARIED pal.
    
    The holidays thing is interesting though.  Australian law provides
    leave on a prorata basis after (but including) the first three months
    up to 1 Jan, after that it's four weeks a year full pay plus a 17.5%
    bonus for those four weeks.  Not quite six weeks, but it sure helps at
    Christmas!

        Re: .47

>    Overtime meal allowance?  Haven't been inhaling any illegal vegetable
>    matter have we?  Geez, have you EVER tried to get overtime anything as 
>    a WC4?  We're SALARIED pal.

        There is a big difference between working overtime and being
        paid overtime.  A WC4 employee that works more than 8 hours a
        day is working overtime, and section 3.17 of the U.S. PP&P says:

            SUPPER ALLOWANCE
            ----------------

            When an exempt employee is required to work at least three
            hours overtime, a $5.00 supper allowance is authorized for
            his or her evening meal.

        BTW, `inhaling any illegal vegetable matter?' isn't a polite
        thing to ask a person in a public forum.

        					B.J.

    re: .48
    
>            When an exempt employee is required to work at least three
>            hours overtime, a $5.00 supper allowance is authorized for
>            his or her evening meal.
    
    One problem with such a policy is, of course, the term "required".
    I've put in many nights (and a handful of all-nights) finishing
    a project for a customer.  But this overtime is not "required" (i.e.,
    no manager said "you shall work overtime tonight", but instead said
    "get this project done by such-and-such").  Hence, overtime "required"
    for successful delivery is not always equated with overtime "required"
    by an act of management.
    
    Of course, many people are unlikely to use this policy until they
    know it exists.  And when no one bothers to tell a new hire about
    the _existance and availability_ of the PP&P for 1 1/2 YEARS after
    hiring, they aren't likely to read it, are they?  8^(  Thankfully,
    this latter situation (ignorance through lack of orientation) is
    changing in our District.
    
    FWIW, I cannot recall _ever_ hearing of a SWS person who managed
    to get a supper allowance around here (it might have happened, but
    I don't recall hearing it).  I don't know about the Customer Service
    folks.
    
    -- Russ

    It's very easy to get paid -- all you have to do is submit the voucher.
    There is probably an excellent chance that today's crop of managers
    will not know about this provision.....but now they will, won't
    they.  Claiming the bucks would also make the amount of time their
    people are working much more visible.

	Supper Allowence?

	Does that come under the heading of "Personal Meals" on the
	Employee Expense Voucher?  

	- Mike

    I'm so glad the US P&P makes this marvelous provision.  So does the SPR
    P&P - but requesting overtime is best way I know of to get management
    to laugh.

Re .46

>    By the way, we DO have this sort of regulation in the good ol' USA -
>    it's called union work rules.  During my college career, I work for a
>    while as a clothing salesman at Brooks Brothers in N.Y.C.  Union rules
>    prohibited starting early (if not on the opening shift  and required me
>    to take ALL of my lunch hour.  This was to allow those who wanted a
>    full lunch top take it without fear of unfair competition.

Oooooooooohhhhhhhh!  You used the *U* word not once but twice!  That's a no-no
in the company.  Don't ever say it near a manager.  They have directions to 
take specific steps immediately.  Digital is very and quite non-#####.

Steve

re: the "u" word

It seems to me that our no-layoff "tradition" has been the major reason 
Digital manufacturing has remained u****-free.

Perhaps this is why top management will continue to reserve layoff's as an
absolute last resort. 

Ray

    Re .the_last_few:
    
    I always thought the "U" word was "Un*x," not "un**n."
    
    Steve Kallus, Jr. 

re: .55

>    Re .the_last_few:
>    
>    I always thought the "U" word was "Un*x," not "un**n."
>    
>    Steve KallUs, Jr. 

Steve, did you do that on purpose :-)

Bob