Conference 7.286::digital

    Isn't there a story that applies here from one of our competitors?
    
    It seems that Packard of Hewlett-Packard was in the facility after
    hours and encountered some engineers who were frustrated that some
    necessary instruments were locked up.  Packard broke into a cabinets
    and said he'd fire anyone who locked them up again.

Time to drive home, call a cab, have the stuff taken to Harvard Square to a
late night copy center, and brought back to you.

Turn your expense report in in the morning.

/john

    How does locking the copy machine up overnight save money?  I'd
    presume any copies that need to be made between 6:30 p.m. and 7:30
    a.m. (do I have the hours right?) will still need to be made, and
    will most likely be made at the same machine.  No savings on paper.
    
    Or is this another example of punishing all for the transgressions
    of a few?  _Maybe_ they caught someone making (gasp) personal copies
    afterhours! 
    
    Karen

Drive to the Mill, wander through the halls until you find a copier that
isn't locked up.  If that fails, follow John's advice.

Perhaps Tom Eggers could tell us about the doors to the PDP-10 computer
room on 5B.  As I recall, they were always carefully removed from their
hinges many Monday mornings.

Martin.

    It's just another step on the road to bureaucracy.  Don't get too
    excited at this stage - it's early yet.  You'll find it getting
    worse and worse as an inept and unaware management attempts to quantify
    everything to relieve themselves of the burden of thinking.
    
    Here in subsidiary-land, AQS was taken out of service during off-hours
    at FY88 year-end; copier dust, including that for LN03's, printer
    ribbons, etc. are all locked up.  
    
    Since customers are (generally) customers in SPITE of Digital's
    policies and procedures why should you get any better?  They PAY
    to be mis-treated.
                                      
    

    Re: .4
    
    Nope, don't remember ever removing a door from its hinges.  (I do know
    somebody who did it, though.)
    
    I did ask a guard late one night to let me into a locked stockroom.  He
    refused, so I had him watch me climb over the 15-foot screen, get the
    part, sign it out, and climb back over the screen. The guard wrote down
    my name and badge number and the part description, then reported me. I
    went back to fixing the machine. Win Hindle called me in the next
    morning and asked what happened. I told him, and he said, "Try to get
    there before the stockroom closes."  I said, "OK", and that was the end
    of it.
    
    I think I would have used my DEC badge to jimmy the lock into the copy
    room.  I'd probably arrange for security to watch me do it. "Do the
    right thing" applies in these cases, but don't do it secretly. THAT can
    get you into trouble!

    RE: -.1
    
    I do recall coming in one morning and finding the doors to the PDP10
    computer room in 5B off their hinges.
    
    However, I never did find out who it was.
    
    Old PDP10 Tech

    I would certainly talk to the person who made the decision to lock the
    door.  After all you and all the other CC's are paying the bill for the
    Facilities group...you deserve to have the tools you need to do your
    job.
    
    If you swing by the Mill on 5-2 accesible from the hall is a public
    copier.  So far it is avail to anyone who needs it.
    
    I purchased one for our own use as a hedge against this type of thing.
    
    -Paul

    i can tell you about another one...
    
    The main Digital facility in Rome is located a few meters from a 
    heavy traffic (tens of thousands of cars a day) highway, between 
    the city and the airport.

    A few months ago, due to cost control, someone decided to turn off
    the big "DIGITAL" signs on top of our building (Rome)
    
    The overall saving (electricity) was around 3-5 dollars per night.

    Someone from the field complained (sarcastically i must say) 
    with a passing by DEC top executive (CMT) and sent a memo to another 
    one stating that the lights would have to stay on 
    and if the company wasn't willing to pay for it, *he* would do so.
    
    After a few hours the lights were on again....
    
    (just to talk about the impact, a few customers who didn't see the 
    lights on any more called and asked if we were abandoning
    Italy and going out of business!!)

    let's keep doing the right thing!!!
    
    Bruno

"In Search Of Excellence", page 245 (bottom):

	'Legend has it that Bill [Hewlett] visited a plant on
	 Saturday and found the lab stock area locked. He
	 immediately went down to maintenance, grabbed a bolt
	 cutter, and proceeded to cut the padlock off the lab
	 stock door. He left a note that was found on Monday
	 morning: "Don't ever lock this door again. Thanks,
	 Bill".'

Big companies collect people who have lost sight of the company's
goals (if they ever understood them in the first place). These people
essentially aim for a quiet life, by heading off anything that might
lead to risk, loss, aggravation, disturbance, or (above all) BLAME.

It's a "Theory X" approach that says "Employees are only hired to work
9-5 Mondays to Fridays. If they are in the plant any other time they
must be up to no good."

I hope your line management will have this decision challenged and
quickly reversed. I don't know if Bill Hewlett's example will inspire
or shame them, but if you think it would help, use it.

--Tom

    If Ken of DEC was there at the copier, would he have gone and break
    into it?

>    If Ken of DEC was there at the copier, would he have gone and break
>    into it?

He wouldn't have had to.  He would have showed Badge Number 1 to the security
ossifer, who would have known where his bread was buttered, and opened the door.

    This reminds me of how it was decided to save some money years ago in
    MRO.  There used to be a guard at the front door until 11 pm.  You
    could go out for some food, and then come back and finish your work,
    and a lot of us frequently did (this was in the days when not everyone
    had a terminal; you worked when you could get your work done, or
    alternated with the other users of "your" terminal and its
    equally-scarce line to the computer.  If you worked on operating
    systems, especially, your hours were pretty strange.).  After the
    original security guard went out on maternity leave, they started
    locking up the door at 7 pm, rather than hire a temporary.  Now, you
    could still get into the building on the third floor at the far end of
    the manufacturing area (which was closed, dark, and desserted at night)
    and wander through the whole building to our lab, which was almost
    directly over the front door, and on the second floor.  A lot of us
    didn't this was worth doing except in dire emergencies, so there was
    always a mass exodus of people at one minute of seven, out the front
    door.  These were the same people who used to leave about then, eat,
    and then return.  Except, after this time, we stopped coming back in
    (unless the situation was REALLY critical).  Much money must have been
    saved, right?
    
    /Charlotte

re: .all

There's a little problem here that i run into all the time (lately).  People
who decide to get on the system at 2 AM on Sunday morning to finish up that
oh-so-critical presentation for Monday are aghast that:
	1.  ALL-IN-1 is down for backups or file maintenance (yes, those
		nasty ISAM files still do need to be CONVERTed now and again)
	2.  when that thunderstorm rolled through and tripped a breaker on
		the user disk, there was no operator around to try to fix it
		(remember "lights out computer rooms", folks?)
	3.  plus there's nobody around to answer the Hot Line either, just
		your friendly local security guard making like Sgt. Schultz
	4.  and the LPS40 that your 900 page report was queued to in order to
		get a head start on printing turns out to be jammed (maybe
		you can also remember when we used to talk about computers
		creating the "paperless society"?)

People who voluntarily work extra and non-standard hours (and i've always
been one since the "old days") now seem to expect that all the administrative
and support services that are there during the 40 hour week should also be
available at any and every off-hour time.  It ain't that easy.  To hire 7x24
hour support coverage costs major money, especially when a new shift has to be
started up from scratch.  And the gyrations it may take to provide simulated
"100% uptime" in spite of the real need for backups and file maintenance are
going to be expensive both in terms of operational complexity and worst-case
data recoverability.

This is really a different topic from what .0 is talking about, i guess (ms/r.
moderator, please feel free to move).  I've been in .0's position with regard
to silly things like copiers before.  But there are some folks who have come
to expect the total ancillary support environment that they enjoy during the
"normal" work week to be available on demand, in essence.  The question that
these folks should be asked is: CAN YOU COST-JUSTIFY THE NEED FOR THESE ADDED
SERVICES VS. THE ALTERNATIVE OF YOUR LEARNING TO DO YOUR JOB IN A 40 HOUR WEEK?
								paul

Re: .14

>	1.  ALL-IN-1 is down for backups or file maintenance (yes, those
>		nasty ISAM files still do need to be CONVERTed now and again)

If it's *anticipated* down time then I think you should announce it in
advance, even if it's over a week-end.  The other situations you mentioned
are in the "them's the breaks" category: the hazards of working non-
standard hours.  Luckily I have system privileges on our computer system,
so there are a lot of problems I could fix myself if need be.

>The question that these folks should be asked is: CAN YOU COST-JUSTIFY THE NEED
>FOR THESE ADDED SERVICES VS. THE ALTERNATIVE OF YOUR LEARNING TO DO YOUR JOB IN
>A 40 HOUR WEEK?

That's a rather provocative question that's likely to provoke flames from
people who DO do their job in a 40 hour week but AS AN EXTRA SPECIAL FAVOR TO
DEC they also work nights and weekends.

It's basically a trade-off: if there's a way you can make life easier for
people who work after hours you should do it, unless it costs too much.

				-- Bob

RE .14

	What's nice is when a certain level of informality can be mixed into
	the "after hours support"... It's nice being in an organization where
	others don't take advantage of the fact that I'll help them when I can
	after hours. (I'm a system manager)  If this was taken advantage of
	or a stink made about someone not being here when Joe Blow "just had
	to get this report", then management strives to remind this person
	that the support they should expect after hours in strictly done out
	of the kindness of people hearts and that kindness could be short-lived
	if they persist to be pains in the butt.

	It works 99% of the time here and makes for much better working 
	conditions than the last place I work. And wouldn't you know, many
	people in this arraingment go out of their way to help "after hours".

	Appreciation and respect are the keys. It should be managements job
	to remind people that and to guide people in that direction.

							mike

Well, I *JUST* couldn't resist..

    As I remember things way back when, we didn't have big
MIS groups (or system managers groups, or whatever you want to call it)
telling us what to do (at least in my group we didn't)... so down time was
under our control (unless something actually failed in the hardware, which
was rare).

    I still do everything on my own system, because I don't like my work
to be at the mercy of these big groups.

    Gee, this sounds as if it could be another topic
(do we REALLY need these big MIS-type groups here?)


        oh well,
                Regards,
                        Steve Cloutier

Something similar to .0 happended here in Washington D.C.  a few years 
ago. Spread throughout the building are small Cannon/Rico/Whatever 
copiers used for light duty copying with several large Kodak copiers
in a "copy room" upstairs. Facilities began locking the Kodaks up afterhours
and weekends; not as a cost cutting measure but because they were
always down from having untrained people attempting to service (simple
things like unjaming them and other "routine" maintenence) after hours.

There was a tremendous hue and cry over this but over the next 6
months the do-it-yourself copy room was converted into a copy center
with prime-time operators who knew how to run the machines. They 
brought in even bigger and fancier Kodak copiers (quick suckers with
all sorts of fancy attachments) that allowed even really big jobs to be
turned around in a matter of hours and you, or your secretary, didn't
have to stand there doing it!

So, for us, something that looked really stupid at the beginning has turned
out quite well. There's still those people who don't get done until the last 
minute (not always avoidable) but now people are able to rely on the copiers
being up during primetime.

If ALL your copiers are locked I'd really bitch about that. There's really
no excuse for it.

Regards,
Ray

ps
 
re .17; I'd like to see a topic of that nature (are MIS groups needed?). I
           I spent 9 years in Software Services and now 2 in one of those
           MIS groups so I've got some experience from both sides.

    All right, you caught me.  On at least 3 occasions I have opened locked
    lab doors by main force.  The first two times were when we "had" to get
    software working and the badge reader was brain dead.  I even asked
    that we get a "key" to the traditional lock on the door.
    
    The last time was when some major component of the Mill power system
    bit the dust.  I decided that it was a good idea to turn off all the
    machines in the lab before they all got spiked when the power came back
    on (and the badge reader was even more brain dead than usual).  This
    time the whole lock came off in my hand.
    
    We moved away so I don't know if they ever got a key for the lock.
    
    /s/ Jim Williams
    
    

re: .16

I think you're right, Mike, a little mutual understanding goes a long
way.  Unfortunately, we find some folks who start off any discussion
about service (them being the consumer, us the provider) with the attitude
"you're wrong, i'm right, now what was it we were discussing?"  This most
often comes from the folks who are in the slightly-to-moderately technical
bracket but who think they're in the guru-to-megawizard technical bracket.

re: .17

>    I still do everything on my own system, because I don't like my work
>to be at the mercy of these big groups.

I agree, given that we all have our own 8700.  But how many people are at
YOUR mercy?  If it's 250 that only know how to type ALLIN1 at the "$" or
400 who are mixing business transaction processing applications with ad hoc
reporting with office automation products, they might do better with the
big group supporting them, no offense intended.

>(do we REALLY need these big MIS-type groups here?)

Heck, no!  But it may be more cost-effective in the long run (read: cheaper
and tolerably functional).  There's usually an economy of scale argument
behind these groups (i'm in one, and that's what i hear;-)).  Quality of
people (in terms of both expertise and commitment) is still what makes the
difference in quality of service in either big or small situations, though.

One alternative if you really need guaranteed computer availability is to
take a computer home with you.  But before Digital allows its employees to
do this as a general practice, i'd suggest that we make them pass a "license
exam" that proves they can support a computer at home with minimal external
assistance.  Otherwise i'm sure we'll open up a huge new wormhole of added
service requirements (let's see, how about 3 shifts of system managers on
motorcycles who can scoot off to users' homes on a moment's notice?!).
								paul

re .-1.... Good points...

    Just for the record, I am using a COMPAQ 386/25 (that's a 25 mhz
    IBM compatible), not a Vax.  In fact, I havn't used the Vax for months
    now.  I'm in the DECnet-OS/2 group, and do everything on the PC.

    However, in the past I set up my own microvax system in my office
    to do stuff on..  I really like the workstation developement environment
    as opposed to the timesharing environment.  The workstation is also
    much more reliable, since if it dies, it's just me who can't work.  If
    a large timesharing system is out, whole groups are twittling their
    thumbs..

                Regards,
                        Steve C.

    Not to take this down a rat-hole, but MIS groups (which for simplicity
    I would put system support personnel like system managers, like Mike
    Foley, in) are a very valuable asset when they're good.  I have one of
    the best support organizations around supporting my group and wouldn't
    give them up for the world.  Often they do as good a job as I could do
    and almost as quickly.

    The idea about people only doing personal copies out-of-hours suffers
    from the same problems as those parents who believe their children
    might only get up to "naughty things" after 11pm on a Saturday night.
    
    The same copiers are in inaction at LKG at the same hours. I ended up
    printing all my slides on an LPS40 in a similar position.
    
    - ���

    .0  > Tell me, are we working for the same company or not?
    
    We must be!!  I am at my desk in CGO (Calgary).  It WAS 8:00 am,
    and I was going to address an envelope to courier the results of
    last night's work (only 'till 11:30 this time) to a customer.  I
    keep the addresses in ALL-IN-1's IM/DIR/PER place.
    
    Well, I have been remiss and I have offended the order of the universe
    because I have too many documents (>550).  So, of course, like the
    bad child I am, I can only read and delete mail.  
    
    Of course this, too, is for 'expense control' and that's why I can't
    have any more disk space because in this office of about 120 people
    (counting district folks, etc) there is only 1.7 GIGABYTES left
    on the office automation cluster!!  Lord knows if I took in another
    200 memos, the entire company would suffer irrepairable financial
    disaster and there'd be layoffs, etc.
    
    

        re .24
        
        Amen, DIsk Space must cost around $10-15 per megabyte for internal
        systems, yet I.S. people enforce ridiculous quotas, which means
        that revenue earning people have to sit at the terminals spending
        hours deleting mail, when they could be out earning thousands of
        dollars for the company.
        
        THere is, of course, also the consideration that the amount of
        mail that "has to be" deleted, can leave us on a very narrow legal
        footing, if problems happen. (One of the reasons why engineering
        groups don't limit mail quotas - but then Most engineering groups
        dont have to put up with the additional space that using ALL-IN-1
        consumes. (Have you ever noticed that a WPS-PLUS memo eats about 3
        times as much disk space, as an ascii one).
        
        q
        

RE:     <<< Note 869.25 by BUNYIP::QUODLING "Just a Coupl'a days...." >>>
    
        > Amen, DIsk Space must cost around $10-15 per megabyte for internal
        > systems, yet I.S. people enforce ridiculous quotas, which means
        > that revenue earning people have to sit at the terminals spending
        > hours deleting mail, when they could be out earning thousands of
        > dollars for the company.
    
    You're supposed to delete the mail on your own time.  (^;
    
    							Pat

Yes, Pat, I saw the smiley face, but...

BUNYIP is not in the U.S. -- and in many countries outside the U.S. (not
necessarily Australia), working on your own time is illegal.

    RE: WPS-PLUSes
    
    
      ALL-IN-1 systems should have a choice of editors. So why not use
    EDT to create your memos. And then bring the lack of resources to
    the attention of your managers. I can't do my job right... because..
    usually gets the ball rolling. In the mean time you are doing all
    you can do to survive.
    
    -Mike Z.

    Re last couple:
    
    ALL-IN-1 *does* have a choice of editors (including EDT and TPU), but
    many times I've seen where the site *mandates* that users will use
    WPS-PLUS as their editor.
    
    Compute resources in many field offices that I've seen would also be
    much greater if the system managers would (could?) take the time to
    understand an ALL-IN-1 system.  That product in particular requires a
    certain amount of "care & feeding"; it's not just something you install
    and then forget about, like FMS or products that require minimal/no
    care & feeding.
    
    But a quota of only 550 documents??  sheesh...
    
    Jon

    > But a quota of only 550 documents??  sheesh...
    
    My document quota is 250.
    
    							Pat

    Re: .28  > "...I can't do my job right... because.. usually gets
    the ball rolling."
    
    Without going over a still-festering sore, this approach was tried
    in User-vs-MIS discussion which escalated into childishness (I must
    admit to some enjoyment in taking part).  Then after a year of being
    a digit in an extremely (185% of budget, cust sat up 34%) sales support
    role, the three days of internal BS was THE major point on my review.
    
    To quote Sweeney:  Digital is in the iron grip of bureaucrats who
                       are beyond accountability.
    
    And, in response to another topic in this notes file, **NOTHING** can
    be done to correct a performance appraisal with which you disagree.
    Bureaucrats do not respond to logic.                
    
    

Sorry guys, I can't agree with you regarding mail quotas. Like any
consumable resource on a computer system it really doesn't matter
what your quota is - you're gonna exceed it. I've had 250 for my
limit and lived with it normally at 235-240 or so. Was constantly
exceeding my quota so I pushed to get it raised to 300. Now
I spend most of my time around 280-290 and constantly
exceed that. When I get around to cleaning it up I usually get
rid of 30 or 40 memos at a time which shows me it's pure and simply
my laziness, not the quota itself.

I'm a firm believer that the problem is quotas. It's junk mail (getting
worse all the time too!) and the lack of adequate archiving within 
ALL-IN-1. If I could archive I'd be able to live with a quota of 100. 
When that feature matures things should get much better.

Regarding disk space; the cost per megabyte turns out to be about $8.00
using SA600s but that doesn't take into consideration the HSCs required
nor the manpower to back them up. I invite anyone of you to get a CAR 
signed for just about anything having to do with OA/ALL-IN-1. We're
fighting a daily battle with disk space and CPU resources since we weren't
allowed to spend a DIME on OA all of last year. This year we managed
to force through an SA600 order but that's really gonna help us primarily
by freeing up a body who was doing micromanagement of disk space before.

Just as other notes have suggested that engineers spend time in the
field to "round" their experience I'd like to suggest that all technical
users serve a stint in MIS. Like everything, it's always different when
you're on the other side. Assuming they enjoy being a pain in your
a** isn't a very good foundation to build on.

Ray

869.32�  I'm a firm believer that the problem is quotas. It's junk mail (getting
    
    I bet you meant to say,
    
I'm a firm believer that the problem is *NOT* quotas. It's junk mail (getting

Oooppss...

Thanks. That's obviously what I meant (it's obvious after you 
hit ^Z, of course!).

Ray

re: .0

Not as good as yours, but I have been in copy rooms where the lights will
not turn on after hours and security can't figure out how to turn them on
-- a great cost-cutting feature! What I have had to do in these situations
is to walk into the nearest office, rip out the overhead light and drag it
into the copy room to see what I am doing. Lots of fun at 2 AM!

.0 must be a much more patient man than I. In his situation, my frustration
would have caused me to do my best to kick the door in or otherwise destroy
it. (I am such a wonderful person at 2 in the morning) 

    
    i've spent my years in MIS hell. I think it's a totally loosing
    proposition. MIS's develop nasty customer relations due to nasty
    customers - all it takes is another nit-wit manager to come rattling
    their sabre to cause the MIS mgt to take defensive action. This
    always means more strict rules and never any waiver. It always
    punishes the innocent.
    
    Solution - Eliminate the need. Workstations are the future. Engineering
    needs to build better system management facilities. Most folks should
    never have to learn SYSGEN.  At the same time, we need better computer
    literate users - but not much!
    
    re: Those frustrated folk - I agree with you all. The best solution
    is really the one Mike Foley talked about - cooperation. However,
    as i said up above, all it takes is one screaming manager who threatens
    to make large noise to the common boss and the parties over.
    
    The unfortunate aspect of it all is it defeats all the hard-working
    dedicated folk who really make us the better company. Engineering
    groups do not, and should not have system managers. Most engineers
    can do the job as well or better. Most engineers tolerate system
    crashes - hell they cause them. It's not the end-of-the-world, but
    it's also not magic(to them). Regretfully, the beauracrats make
    policy that assumes everybody is a nit-wit. Since most beauracrats
    have been given positions that are potential targets, they tend
    to have defensive postures (heads in ground - of course then you
    see which end is always showing).
    
    If your boss won't get you a uVAX, then get a PC. Get control of
    your destiny. 
    
    re: -20. Come on Paul, you don't mind round the clock service, or
    have you finally bought a machine to give you that kidney killing
    coffee you love so much at home ?;-) ^8^8^8
    
    	bs

    This is inspired by 982.14, one of the points of which is that
    "guidelines" are only guidelines.

    Where this gets in the way of doing the right thing is that "going
    around" guidelines in order to do the right thing generally involves:
    contact, scheduling a meeting, conflict, and the aftermath.

    Can effective employees "do the right thing" when guidelines stand in
    the way? Can they grind themselves down and their managers in "going
    around" them?  No, at least not all the time, because we're human
    beings and there's a limit to how long and how often you and your
    manager or some other part of the matrix and you want to be on opposite
    sides of issues.
    
    A lot of potential things that we could be doing for customers and
    third parties don't get done because we avoid internal conflict.

    That's why, in my experience, trivial guidelines are never challenged. 
    You'd look stupid trying to "go around" them using a formal process.

    Guidelines are seen as objectively good things in bureaucracies, but
    seldom do their have authors.  "Doing the right thing" doesn't imply
    chaos, it implies trust in employee's discretion.

    Well said .37 . Rules and regulations should not be broken of course ..
    but they can be interpreted, used in a constructive/inventive way ...
    or just plain bent.
    
    Mike Day