Conference 7.286::digital

    Re:< Note 780.0 by CVG::THOMPSON "Protect the guilty, punish the innocent" >

    I will go  a  step  further and say that "international" doesn't mean
    Europe exclusively, as thought much too often inside Digital.
    
    In my previous job in product marketing for GIA, a good portion of my
    effort was spent in making corporate groups sensitive to GIA markets.
    
    Octavio

    It was only this week that I sent a comment to a group preparing a PID
    presentation to the effect that CMPs they had listed, were US only
    and should therefore be listed as CSO instead. Why confuse the non-US
    field organization.
    
    Barry
    
    Latin America/Caribbean SWS
    

    Re: .2 
    
    LACR, PID, CMP, and CSO, all abbreviations I don't know.
    I think I've been TLAd to death. 

    Re: .0

    The phenomenon is certainly found within notes conferences.  As a
    Colorado employee, I am almost constantly confronted with this rather
    overt New England bias in network notes discussions.  One often finds
    Massachusetts and New Hampshire note writers addressing the audience as
    if *everyone* on the network lived in that area.  It is as if the rest
    of us don't exist; we are invisible Digital employees.

    Given what I and my fellow U.S. employees who work outside of New
    England experience, I can certainly sympathize with non-U.S. employees,
    who certainly must face an even more profound bias than I do.  It seems
    to me that Digital employees do need to be more sensitive about the
    fact that this *is* an international company. 

    Are there any figures on the percentages of Digital employees who work
    in various parts of the world?  I think that this would be very
    interesting information.

    -- Mike

    re .-1
    
>    Given what I and my fellow U.S. employees who work outside of New
>    England experience, I can certainly sympathize with non-U.S. employees,
>    who certainly must face an even more profound bias than I do.  It seems
>    to me that Digital employees do need to be more sensitive about the
>    fact that this *is* an international company. 
 
    I made this point to the moderators some time ago, and they obligingly
    altered the topic title for note 750.  See if you can spot the change.
    
    Sensitivity?  Try this:
    
================================================================================
Note 775.8                     1990 Company Cars?                        8 of 10
WR2FOR::BOUCHARD_KE "Ken Bouchard WRO3-2/T7"          4 lines  12-APR-1989 14:35
                                   -< what? >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    Seeing as how DEC was founded in *AMERICA*,it's therefore an *AMERICAN*
    company.It's only natural that employees who work in the company's
    home country discuss matters of concern to them.Sorry if we stepped
    on your toes.We'll try harder.

    
    Wrong Ken.  There exists an entity called Digital Equipment Corporation
    which is a registered company in Mass.  There's also over 50 Digital
    Equipment Corporations registered under the laws of over 50 other countries.
    We refer to them collectively as Digital, but that's only a
    convenience.  Digital is an international collection of companies, and has
    manufacturing and research facilities all over the world.  HQ is
    still in Maynard, but it may be forced to be a little more responsive
    to the rest of us in future as international sales outpace US sales.
    
    Now, in my note to which your reply is addresssed, I said:
                          
>    So, it doesn't make sense to talk about Digital's car plan (or
>    Digital's anything else plan).  There's no such beast.  If people
>    want to talk about the Digital USA car plan then fine, I'll ignore
>    it, because it's of no interest to me.  I was just annoyed by seeing
>    yet again this subconscious attitude that America is the centre
>    of the known universe.  
 
    I stand by that.  I thought that DIGITAL was for all employees,
    not just US ones, so if people are going to discuss matters pertaining
    only to their backyard perhaps they might have the courtesy of
    labelling the topic appropriately?  It would be a good first step.
    
    FWIW, if the moderators went back and changed every existing topic
    label as they did for 750, I wonder if we would see 'US' in 780 topic 
    headers?

The problem Alfred refers to in the base note is not unique to 
DEC. It is a problem that exists in the American society at
large. Far too many of my fellow countrymen don't realize that
there is a world out here and that this world doesn't
necessarily revolve around the U. S. of A. The poor state of the
geographic knowledge of the average American tends to lend
weight to this argument. How many of you over there can find 
Denmark on a map - quickly? Anbody in DEC US know where Digital
Europe's HQ is located? 

DEC USA, like America as a whole, is a part (a big part 
admittedly, but only a part) of a global enterprise - and that
is a fact that many of my chauvanistic fellow countrymen often
find very hard to swallow. 


Regards from Digital Equipment Corp. A/S - a Danish Corporation 
                                          

Geoff Rummel
Copenhagen, Denmark

    
    Seems to me there are two issues here :-
    
    a. this Notes conference
    b. the awareness of Digital's non-US activities
    
       a. is easily addressed. Call the Conference Digital_US, 'cos that's
       what it is. I read it to pick up the mood of people in the US,
       just as I read UK_Digital to understand what's going on here
       in the UK. I can be disappointed by the narrow vision sometimes
       exhibited, but only rarely.
    
       b. is MUCH more difficult. Digital started in the US, most products
       come from the US, & until relatively recently, most cash from
       the US.
    
       I believe most revenue is now non-US, & the predication is that
       the non-US revenues will increase their percentage of the total
       Digital take.
    
       I saw some recent statistics that stated that 9% of Americans
       have a current passport. This is a minute figure by European
       standards, and the lack of understanding of foreign national
       policies/procedures/interests/cultures/business practices/laws
       is very evident.
    
       A previous reply commented on the lack of recognition of GIA
       - my own experience with some US product groups is that, for
       them, GIA = Canada. No comment on the Pacific Rim, Hong Kong,
       Australasia etc, etc.
    
       Perhaps we need some corporate education about our business
       across the world - where we are active, by country - how many
       staff, what markets, what market share, economic outlook etc. 	
                   
       Add a Digital_WW Notes conference, & we can try to help each
       other by intent, rather than by accident!
    
       Colin Osborne

>       I saw some recent statistics that stated that 9% of Americans
>       have a current passport. This is a minute figure by European
>       standards

There you go again.  How can you complain that Americans apply American
standards to the whole world when you have done exactly the equivalent
in reverse in the above quote?

Americans can travel throughout North America without a passport.  The U.S.
alone is three times the size of the E.C. and the U.S. and Canada together
are some seven times the size of the E.C.

What percentage of Europeans have travelled far enough that they would need
a passport  --  by American standards of distance?

/john

I'm a software engineer, so this is mostly about software; this may or may
not apply to hardware as well.

As far as I know, by far the most base product development takes place in
Massachusetts and New Hampshire, with some work being done in California and
England (and other places?).  This is the *base*, i.e. English, product.
Support for non-English speaking countries depends on whether that country uses
the ISO Latin 1 character set: if it uses Latin 1 all that's needed is to
translate the text messages, which is done in England, I think, and doesn't (or
shouldn't) require any engineering changes.  If a country doesn't use Latin 1
(e.g. Israel and GIA -- Japan, China etc.) then there has to be a local language
variant, which is usually developed in the local country.

In other words, even if we're an international sales/field service/
manufacturing company, we're still mostly a New England engineering company.
That probably account for a lot of the New England bias in notes files.

Another point is that many times the U.S./New England "bias" could simply be
the result of ignorance - many of us don't know what things are like in
Europe/Israel/GIA/whatever, and we should welcome the chance to learn.  There's
no reason for hard feelings.

				-- Bob

    re .8: Hairpslitting again, John? Remember, most Europeans don't need a
    passport either to travel within Europe. Granted, North America is
    geographically large - but how would you jugde the cultural difference
    traveling, say, from Hamburg to Rome vs. Boston to Halifax (Nova
    Scotia)?
    
    re .9: I don't have any figures about the volume of SW engineering in
    US vs. outside US - in any case the tendency at least here in Europe is
    to favor companies that not only sell here but also manufacture (in the
    wider sense if doing engineering, research etc) in Europe. DEC hasn't
    been very good at this - many other US companies have a larger
    percentage of their R&D and manufacturing in Europe than DEC.
    
    

    RE: most past responses
    
    I thought the  intent  of this note was to try to make everybody (who
    reads and writes in DIGITAL)  more  sensitive to the fact that we are
    an  international corporation, and not to  establish  which  area  is
    bigger, better, produces more revenue, etc.
    
    Again, even if the company is headquartered in Maynard, MA, USA,  and
    main products and product  strategies  are  developed in the USA, and
    company strategies  and  policies  are  mainly  developed in the USA,
    there must be  consideration and understanding for other parts of the
    corporation and be considered as people working for the same goals.
    
    I was a sales  manager  in  Mexico, and I consider that that position
    contributes and is as important  to  the corporation as the corporate
    job that I have now.
    
    Octavio

Here is some data about the Engineering presence in Europe.  As
a very important note, the "Engineering" headcount reported here
does NOT include Computer Special Systems (CSS) engineering in
Reading/Solent, U.K.; Munich, Germany; and Annecy, France.

				Engineering
		Total (*)	Employees	Total (*)
		Employees	(E+J Code)	DEC
		(end 1987)	(end 1987)	Locations

Switzerland	1020		  36		10	
France		2890		 125		34
Germany		3570		  47		49	
Ireland		1887		  32		 4
Israel		 440		  57		 3
Italy		1680		  18		22
U. K.		7090		 482		23
		====		 ===		==	
		18577 (*)	 797		145 (*)

* Note the info covers only those countries that had an Engineering 
presence at the time of the report (e.g. does not include Denmark,
Belgium, etc.).

Note that the data is 15 months old.  The source is "Engineering
in Europe, 1987 Review".  I do not have corresponding data for 
the rest of the world.

    I think the "USA" vs "INTERNATIONAL" is only one of many areas that
    are affected by lack of knowledge and understanding.  For example,
    I'm in Field Service Logistics in the Product Safety & Regulatory
    space.  A part of this business is to fix and repair parts, spares,
    options, etc. and cycle them back to the Field.
    
    The problem is that evrything is geared to the design and building
    of "new" products.  Very few people seem to realize or understand that
    DEC services everything it ever built.  (I seem to recall hearing
    last year that we still were providing parts/service to a PDP1).
    Many of the DEC standards also appear to address the "new" and not
    the "old".  Many of you may say so what's the problem.  Here's one
    of many.  A product comes back to DEC for repair.  As part of the
    repair, one of the labels on the back of the machine ($0.10 item)
    needs to be replaced.  The repair site orders the label.  When the
    label arrives, the repair site finds out it is plastic and has the
    manufacturing site and next sequential serial number already
    pre-printed.  The repair site can not type on the label to duplicate
    the original label's information.  If a blank, typeable label can't
    be found, the unit will be scrapped.
    
    Next question is how can this corrected.  One way is during the
    phase review process.  Ask the question right up front, "Is the
    product ever going to be brought back in for repairs 2-3 years down
    the road?"  If the answer is yes, then provide two, alternate labels
    for use..one being the vinyl preprinted to handle the volume
    manufacturing needs and the other to be a blank, foil type that
    would allow information to be typed on it.
    
    My point is I not only agree with .0, but also feel there are other
    areas that get affected similarly when the boundaries are narrow
    and restricted.
    
    /\/\ 

The figures in .12 are quite useful and informative and may help all of us
to understand the import of this topic. But in a way I think they point up
something else which may not be all that evident.

With some exceptions, I'm not sure I can be readily convinced that the needs
or desires of "Europe" or "GIA" can be adequately and easily addressed in an
equitable fashion, since they are really artificial groupings constructed
for the sake of organizational effectiveness. Are the needs of the UK and
Italy, for example, really that close in all respects? How about Isreal
and Hong Kong? Yet both pairs claim to be part of "arms" of the company
which are separate from the US.

So, often we may appear to be "US" oriented, and as has been pointed out,
that may be due to the fact that, as a single _COUNTRY_, the US still
accounts for the largest headcount, presence and revenue base. Other _areas_
may (and will) exceed it in some or all aspects, but what needs to happen
is that we must identify concerns of that _area_ as a whole, since that is
the organizational arm which can drive the business, not the individual
country concerns within the area.

Does that make sense?

-Jack

RE:  >Note 780.3
>    
>    LACR, PID, CMP, and CSO, all abbreviations I don't know.
>    I think I've been TLAd to death. 
>

Perhaps we need a Acronyms/Digital_Dictionary conference ... another one to
track?  FWIW, IMHO.  :-)

Steve

    
    re .14 - yes, it makes sense.
    
    As I read the base note, the issue seemed mainly to concern sensitivity
    to the fact that Digital is in many countries rather than just one.
    
    Not sure I appreciated having my botty smacked in .8. Where I come
    from, doing something again implies having done it once (at least)
    before. Not guilty - was first comment.
         
    Issue is not one of how many sq.miles per country, how much revenue
    per country - just that we are many countries with different issues.
    
    Agree with .14 in that you can go through some major culture changes
    in a very short distance - probably the most extreme I know is when you
    go all of 30 miles or so across the English Channel. Try using all
    your British habits & language in France & you'll come very unstuck
    very quickly - & same is true in reverse.
    
    I have European marketing responsibilities as part of my job. I
    read this conference to monitor anything that I might want to share
    with my colleagues across Europe. Many countries, many languages,
    many cultures - even within the same country (eg Ireland, Spain,
    Belgium to name a few). I'm a committed European, & have worked
    in every continent in the world over many years. 
    
    I still forget elementary niceties that are appropriate in individual
    countries - must be even more difficult if you have not visited or
    lived in countries you deal with in business hours.
    
    Nobody is looking for a fight - just the opportunity for us all
    to work together more easily, & with perhaps more recognition of
    each whenever it will benefit Digital (or ourselves).
    
    That's all now, lest I attract more flak.
    
    
    

Re: .12

Do you have the corresponding figures for the U.S.?

				-- Bob

    I would like to see figures on the distribution of all employees, not
    just engineering, across various parts of the world and the U.S.
    
    -- Mike

    Regarding geographical knowledge, I remember a visit to Boston
    many years ago and a conversation with a US Field engineer.
    I challenged him to draw a rough map of UK and place London,
    Liverpool and Southampton. This he did and ....well, one
    out of three ain't bad! THEN he ask me to do the same of the
    US and place San Francisco, New York and Seattle. I cannot
    remember exactly how I did but do remember his laughter when I
    placed SF somewhere on the Baja peninsula in Mexico!
                     
    Calvin

    So, what can we do?
    
    As regards this conference, one of two things:
    
    1.  The moderators can ensure that every topic heading is accurate
    (ie "Digital's car plan" becomes "Digital's US car plan"); or
    
    2.  Rename this conference DIGITAL_USA and start up a REAL Digital
    conference.
    
    As regards attitudes, well, who knows?  Forcibly rotate all US staff
    through Colombia, Israel or Oz?  How about Yugoslavia or Zimbabwe?  
    Restrict them to 300 baud dial-up lines until they give in?  Give
    excellence awards for The Most Improved Geographer in each branch?
    Not easy, is it?  

      I think we can start with using 'Digital' instead of DEC to refer
to this company and not interchange the two freely because Digital is not
known/registered as Digital Equipment Corporation thruout the world. In France
it is Digital Equipment France, in Ireland it is Digital Equipment International
B.V.  etc. Just a symbolic gesture towards recognition of Digital's 
internationalization.

     In many countries Digital has subsideries but in others the business
is taken care by JOINT VENTURES (with local companies) and DISTRIBUTORS.

     For people who would like to get further insight into this subject there
are series of Video tapes available from:

                    Media Communications Group
                    HYSTER::AVINFO or AVINFO @MKO

titled: "Digital from a Global Perspective" A symposium sponsored by ETREND
         (Engineering Training Education Network) November 17, 19888.


-Avinash

re: .3
    
    well, I am happy to explain.
    
    LACR - Latin America/Caribbean Region
    PID  - Proprietary Information Disclosure
           (this was happily called non-disclosure for MANY years)
    CMP  - Cooperative Marketing Partners 
    CSO  - Complementary Solutions Organization 

    If you think this is bad, try responding to bids written in a language
    you are barely familiar with.
    
    Barry
    
    

    I'm beginning to think I'm barely familiar with English. Perhaps it
    only looks like English. 

        For the record, when this conference was created on 2-MAR-1985, by
        Didier (DTL), it resided in France.  It wasn't until somewhat
        later (24-MAY-1985) that it moved to HUMAN::, in the Mill, in
        Maynard, MA, USA.  Since that time, HUMAN:: has moved to the DSG
        facility, in Westford, MA, USA. 
        
        For better or for worse, this is one of the oldest conferences in
        continuous use on the EASYNET.  The scope of the conference has
        always been international.  If someone wishes to start a new
        conference to address the subset of issues around the way we
        work at Digital *in the USA*, I doubt that anyone would object.
        
        This is by no means the only conference where people show truly
        geocentric attitudes.  It would be easy to suggest that this
        is a problem unique to people living in the United States of
        America, but it's not.  It's a problem in many places.  Let's
        try to be more conscious of it, and not just recognize but
        value the differences among us.
        
        Tom

        re .20
        
        what do we do.
        
        Gee, no-one noticed a problem until you mentioned it, and,no
        doubt, when you shut up, no one will notice a problem. 
        
        While there a few trials and tribulations associated with being
        part of an international company, I don't think they really rate
        setting up any new notes administrivia...
        
        
        q
        

    
    I think I like the idea of foreign postings but wonder
    if we can afford language learning curves for so many people.
    
    Actually I wonder why any reasonably well-brought-up person
    (and good employee) would find working in France any more
    perilous than the UK (or the US)? 
    
    Don't we all have roughly the same ideas about how we want 
    people to act towards us, especially when we are selling or 
    providing service? 
    

    re .25
    
>        Gee, no-one noticed a problem until you mentioned it, and,no
>        doubt, when you shut up, no one will notice a problem. 
 
    I don't know what you smoke up there in the Tower, Peter, but I want
    some.  Perhaps you missed everybody else's (generally supportive)
    comments in the haze.

  re .24:  Yep.  As Tom pointed out, this conference was originally inter-
  national in scope, and didn't stop being international just because it
  was moved to the States.  The fact that recent activity in the conference
  was primarily US-oriented was (in my opinion) more a reflection of which
  employees chose to participate, because of opportunity as well as
  motivation.  Legislating the scope (via renaming) of the conference to be
  US-only would be regrettable.  I believe it would also be counter to the
  intent of the topic note.

  re .21:  In general it is more correct to use the name "Digital" rather
  than the nickname "DEC."  However, in at least PRC, "D E C" (pronounced
  "dee-ee-see") is well-known, but "Digital" not at all.

  re .9:  The necessity of doing "local language variants" is in my view
  merely an expediency.  VMS, or Ultrix for that matter, should be able to
  process not just the Latin-1 character set.  Making systems "language-
  neutral" and then Americanize, or Europeanize, or Asianize the final
  product, would be the ideal.  This was the vision Bill Heffner, vp of
  Open Systems/Software Business communicated to us last week (April 3-7)
  when he was visiting Japan and Hong Kong.

  --Simon
  manager, Asian Base-Systems, Far East Region

    It would be much better if the complaining fellow Europeans just
    tried to say something interesting to everybody.

    Are "US only topics" like car policy, drug testing, "all hands on deck"
    etc uninteresting for the rest of the company ?

    Not so, some are real dynamite. Just imagine that a major policy (cars)
    changed without a strike, without trade unions, etc ?

    Some of the discussions in here are a real school of DEC attitude and
    and DEC idea of employee/employer relations .

    				
    			All hands on Digital ( conference ) .!!.-)

    re .29 -
    
    Who are the "complaining fellow Europeans".
    
    If it includes me the issues I watch for are the very ones you
    identify, as I am looking for the earliest hint of any carryover
    from the US.
    
    Recent excitements about All Hands on DEC, early retirements,
    stock price, drug testing etc may have international implications.  
    
    The issue I often find difficult is whether a particular subject
    is US only, or broader. It is sometimes also unclear whether the 
    subject is a conscious policy or a local practice.
    
    Given clarity on geographic spread & subject status most of my issues
    would be eased. 
    
    Only then leaves the business awareness & sensitivity issues to be
    recognised more consistently (Roman law cf US law, British common law
    cf anything else, variable business & social protocols, East Coast US
    cf the rest of the US & so on).
    
    Not going to beat that set just with Notes, but we can make a start... 
                       
    Colin Osborne
    
    (PS have just read that Toyota are about to announce a huge European
        manufacturing plant to be built in Derby in the English Midlands.
        This is press speculation until tomorrow, but one of the senior
    	Council officials was saying that the whole council team were
        given training on Japanese etiquette to ensure they did not
        unintentionally offend the visiting delegation. 
    
    	This included the fact that you should not blow your nose with a
        handkerchief in front of Japanese visitors. He claimed this
        level of knowledge made the council negotiators more confident
        & professional. Seems to make sense.
    
        Perhaps topics including such tips by country might be helpful.
    	Could include whether to tip or not, local expectations on
        discounting etc, importance on local language speakers being
        lead presenters in sales situations, highly sensitive subjects
        & general good manners.)
        
    
        
    
     

re: .30 (rathole)

>    	 This included the fact that you should not blow your nose with a
>        handkerchief in front of Japanese visitors. He claimed this

So how *should* you accomplish this (sometimes vitally necessary) activity?

1.	Use your hand.
2.	Use your sleeve.
3.	Use the visitor's sleeve.
4.	Some other way???

Ray

    a. Let your nose drip
    b. Withdraw from the group for a moment and blow your nose out of
       sight and earshot.

    When I was very small, my Mother says I used to tell the following
    "joke". Somehow it seems relevant to the last couple of notes. 
    
    Q:	Why does the faucet go "drip, drip, drip"?
    
    A.	Because it can't go "sssnnnnnniiiiiiiiiiiiiFFFFFFFF".

.31�So how *should* you accomplish this (sometimes vitally necessary) activity?
.31�
.31�1.	Use your hand.
.31�2.	Use your sleeve.
.31�3.	Use the visitor's sleeve.
.31�4.	Some other way???
.31�
.31�Ray

    You might even use the "farmer's handkerchief".Describing this is
    not considered genteel.

  I believe that at least part the point of the advice in .30:

  >This included the fact that you should not blow your nose with a
  >handkerchief in front of Japanese visitors. 

  ...is that you should use a paper tissue rather than a handkerchief. I'm
  told that the Japanese do not believe one should capture _any_ type of
  bodily excreta in a cloth rag and then store it on one's person.  When
  it is put that way, it makes sense to me.

  Hope this helps,

  JP

    Re .35:
    
    > I'm told that the Japanese do not believe one should capture _any_
    > type of bodily excreta in a cloth rag and then store it on one's
    > person.
    
    I guess that means urine testing will not go over real big in Japan.
    
    
    				-- edp

    Re .36
    
    Unless the procedure has changed recently, I don't think that it
    is required or optional when complying with a urine test to "...
    store it on one's person".

    
    For what it's worth, the decision on the Toyota plant is now public.
    It did go to Derby. 
    
    If it was partly 'cos they had taken the time & trouble to learn the
    customs of their clients, good luck to them.
    
    For those who want to be flippant, you might like to reflect that
    the contract was worth #700m in start-up capital (roughly $1.2
    billion), 3000 direct jobs & 3000 indirect jobs. Will produce
    200,000 cars a year by 1994.
    
    

	For those with questions regarding Japanese culture there is a
	conference (isn't there always? :-) ) on the subject at:

Japanese Culture             	JIT081::JPNCLT          	          164

	I've seen a lot of questions answered there.

			Alfred

PS: The conference is located in Japan.

  Re: .3%

  Yes.  We use a paper tissue.

  *BUT*

  The intellectuals has knowledge that there are many different manners
  in the world.  You don't need to be too sensitive at least on official
  occasions.

  Dolby SHIMONO
  DEC-Japan/Kleenexpert support
  Tokyo Deconstruction Kid

    
    re -1, and a couple others
                              
    I've had several Japanese exchange students live with my wife and
    me over the past few years.  One of the things the Japanese people are 
    best known for is their politeness.  This politeness includes overlooking
    a foreign guest's ignorance of their customs.  
         
    Bruce

Re: .21

A small correction...

In Ireland the Manufacturing plants are part of Digital Equipment
International B.V.   The sales and service organization is Digital 
Equipment Ireland Ltd.

In the UK there is a similar split.  Sales and service (which also hosts 
Engineering) is Digital Equipment Company Ltd., and the manufacturing plant 
in Scotland is Digital Equipment Scotland Ltd.

jb