Conference 7.286::digital

    Isn't this a redundant note?
    
    Mark.

>>    Isn't this a redundant note?
    
>>    Mark.



No, I do not believe so. HUMAN::DIGITAL is a notesfile meant for
discussing the philosophy of working at DIGITAL. 

Arrogance is unfortunately becoming a major part of working at
Digital.


Please explain why you think this type of unprofessional behaviour
is redundant?  Please put yourself in other peoples shoes.

Regards

Victor

    This horse has been beaten before, although it (apparently) isn't dead
    yet. I can understand your shock and surprise with your first encounter
    (or lack of same) with a Digital recruiter.
    
    See also 701, 601 and 579 in this conference.
    
    Regards,
    Larry.

    The reason I feel the note is redundant is that there is a discussion
    going on in another note on this very subject.
    
    That's all.  
    
    Mark.

    As an aside, you shouldn't generalize about all Digital recruiters.
    Personally, I've found those I've dealt with to be very courteous
    and helpful.
    
    Mark.
    

    
    I get the impression in .0 that you (and of course your friend)
    are looking for jobs in a different country, and hence in a different
    Digital subsidiary.
    
    I have gone through the loop of trying for jobs in these circumstances
    twice in my Digital career (once four years ago, and once a few
    years before that). I found that initially it takes personnel a *very*
    long time to find out exactly what is involved in international
    relocation, whether it be temporary or permanent, probably simply
    because the vast majority of personnel people never get involved
    in such things.
    
    Rather than ascribing the silence to arrogance or malice, I would
    tend to be charitable and assume that they are researching the position
    before responding. Incidentally as far as my probably limited
    understanding of the process is concerned Digital Personnel Policies
    & Procedures lay down very rigorous, non-negotiable relocation
    contracts for international relocatees. These are expensive packages
    for the receiving cost center to get involved in, and many jobs,
    though "open job posted" are not in fact available to international
    relocatees, either because of this, or if in the USA because it
    would be impossible for the company to sponsor a non-US citizen
    for an L-1 visa for a temporary posting, or get labor certification
    prior to sponsoring a 'green card' application. Even if money and
    labor cert is not a problem it may still founder on the very long
    time the US government paperwork can take. In the case of moves
    to other countries I am sure similar bureaucratic considerations
    apply.                            
    
    /. Ian .\

re: .0 < Note 718.0 by KBOMFG::POST "Veni Vedi Vinci" >

> You cannot really send the person a SECOND REQUEST for information,
> without putting yourself into a corner.

I'm sorry - this logic escapes me. Perhaps you could explain what you
meant by this. Are you simply implying the expectation that a subsequent
request will likewise be ignored? If so, how does that put you "in a corner"?

-Jack

< Note 718.0 by KBOMFG::POST "Veni Vedi Vinci" >
                 -< Why are PERSONNEL RECRUITERS so ARROGANT? >-

Most of the recruiters I have dealt with have been very pleasant.  
Unfortunately there are enough bad recruiting offices out their to give 
a reputation for the whole lot.  As an example:  

When I was looking to leave my previous employer I went to one of those 
job fairs and gave my resume to the DEC booth.  I heard nothing.  Two 
months later I went to another one of those fairs.  There were no takers 
at the DEC booth so I left my resume again.  Two months later I went to 
still another job fair.  I went to the DEC booth and gave my resume to 
the person there.  He said something to the effect:

"Mr. Miano, we saw you at fair X and fair Y.  We have no opening for people 
with your level of experience so please leave us alone."

Two days later I got a call from a head-hunter who had set up an 
interview at Digital for me.  Four weeks and a hefty agency fee later I 
was working at DEC.  It turned out that the people who I spoke to at the 
job fairs do hiring for the group I went to work for.

John

        Sigh.  This particular deceased equine will be flaggelated
        yet again, and again, and again, until someone takes the time
        to *document* the problem (both the particulars of specific
        instances, as well as the scope of the problem) and sticks
        his or her neck out by escalating the problem to management
        in the personnel organization.
        
        Clearly, not all recruiters are arrogant.  Undoubtedly, some are,
        just as some people in almost any job role are arrogant. 
        
        It *may* be safe to assume that *most* recruiters are swamped with
        responses to job posting.  I haven't taken the time to extract the
        JOBS infobase (a difficult but not impossible task) and determine
        the number of recruiters listed and the number of positions per
        recruiter.  I suspect that each recruiter has *many* positions
        listed, and that many recruiters are serving multiple masters
        (more than one group). 
        
        At issue, it seems to me, is whether the problem of non-responsive
        recruiters is so wide-spread that a reasonable person would have
        to conclude that the system has broken down.  Anecdotal evidence
        gathered here would suggest that it has, but I suspect that most
        of the people who are happy with the system aren't sharing their
        experiences. 
        
        Tom

    I have to add my two cents worth.  I am extremely with the PERSONNEL
    organization as a whole in Digital.  I have only come across two
    personnel representatives (recruiter or PSAs) that I have had any
    respect for at all.  They left Digital needless to say.  I had been
    attempting to send my daughter's resume to a recruiter.  This recruiter
    NEVER returned acknowledgment of receiving this resume.  I send
    the resume a number of times.  To no avail.  I then send the resume
    to the person I was trying to get the interview with and they were
    courteous enough to acknowledge me immediately.  Not only did the
    person in charge of the position acknowledge me but kept me posted
    as to the results of the job.  
    
    My daughter did not get the position - but what upset me the most
    was that our PERSONNEL organization did not care enough to even
    acknowledge the receipt of such.
    
    Our PERSONNEL organization is (in my opintion) definitely BROKE
    - big time.
    

    Re:                 <<< Note 718.10 by RAINBO::RU >>>
>                -< You must have patient to find job in DEC! >-
    
    From personal experience.
    
    I sent my resume to several recruiters in New England via US Postal
    Services.  In my cover letters, I mentioned requisition numbers that
    each individual recruiter was listed for.  Two responded with letters
    that said they would start a search of open jobs, and then nothing (it
    will be a year in April).  What I found that worked was to read the
    JOBS conference and send my resume to the hiring managers.  A lot of
    them also gave me pointers to other managers or forwarded my resume for
    me.  I ended up getting two offers in one facility, which the recruiter
    that they made me talk to said was very rare, but I had to drop the
    relocation for personal reasons.  But that is another story.
    
    Larry

< Note 718.7 by EVER11::DELBALSO "I (spade) my (dog face)" >
                            -< I'm confused by .0 >-

re: .0 < Note 718.0 by KBOMFG::POST "Veni Vedi Vinci" >

> You cannot really send the person a SECOND REQUEST for information,
> without putting yourself into a corner.

I'm sorry - this logic escapes me. Perhaps you could explain what you
meant by this. Are you simply implying the expectation that a subsequent
request will likewise be ignored? If so, how does that put you "in a corner"?

-Jack

If a person is interested in an opening, it is always helpful if you make
a pleasant first impression. How would you feel if you received a 
SECOND REQUEST ... PLEASE REPLY mail. In my eyes, it may be necessary to
approach in this manner, None-the-less it seems to be a pushy way to try
to get someones attention. And you usually do not want to come across as
being PUSHY in your first impression...

RE: .13

	On the contrary, I find that being "pushy" as you say, means there
	is a definate interest in the job. Having interviewed people who
	were so-so with fine qualifications and people who are enthusiastic
	with slighty less qualifications I tend to lean in the direction of
	the enthusiastic person. (not always, but first impressions...)

	Personally, for all my jobs that I've gotten (in spite of personnel),
	I've been "pushy". Works for me.

	BTW, is anyone collecting all this info for presentation to 
	Personnel as constructive critisism so they can hopefully 
	"do the right thing"?

							mike

re: .13

 Hi Victor,
     I have to agree with Mike in .14. Placing a second request with a
 recruiter who hasn't responded to the first one, shouldn't lead you to
 feel that you're being pushy, especially if the second request is nicely
 worded to indicate that you were concerned that your first request may
 have been lost or misplaced since you hadn't received any response.

 -Jack

RE: .14

>	BTW, is anyone collecting all this info for presentation to 
>	Personnel as constructive critisism so they can hopefully 
>	"do the right thing"?
    
    Note 701 on the Role of the Recruiter has some advice in this area.
    One suggestion (701.5) is to list the hiring manager's name on the
    VTX job posting. In this way, the recruiter need not be in the loop
    at all, reducing overhead and eliminating barriers to obtaining
    information relevent to career planning.
    
    Despite the fact that ?my recruiter? has not returned *any* of my
    dozen or so phone calls and mail messages, I have *no* gripe since
    virtually all of his reqs list the hiring managers name within the
    job description text. That's all I really need from him!
    
    The personnel folks, however, *may* see this suggestion as a *threat*
    to the role of the recruiter and this may explain their relunctance
    to embrace the concept of making hiring managers name a standard
    data element on the posting (left blank if the hiring manager chooses
    not to reveal his identity).
    
 Topic  Author               Date         Repl  Title
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
   701   VIDEO::YEE          20-JAN-1989    27  role of recruiter??
         SCARY::M_DAVIS      20-JAN-1989  701.1  
        WR2FOR::BOUCHARD_KE  20-JAN-1989  701.2  recruiters...BAH!
        WHYVAX::DELBALSO     23-JAN-1989  701.3  You can quote a req # to a recruiter but you can't make him forw
         SCARY::M_DAVIS      23-JAN-1989  701.4  
>>>>>>>>AKOV68::BIBEAULT     23-JAN-1989  701.5  Solution: List Hiring Manager's Name on VTX posting
        CTCADM::GONDA        23-JAN-1989  701.6  
        DPDMAI::DAVISGB      23-JAN-1989  701.7  Thanks, but I didn't apply!
            DR::BLINN        23-JAN-1989  701.8  Send feedback on JOBS infobase to GRIMLY::JOBSBOOK
         SCARY::M_DAVIS      23-JAN-1989  701.9  
        NEWVAX::PAVLICEK     23-JAN-1989  701.10  Internal vs. External Hiring
        EAGLE1::EGGERS       23-JAN-1989  701.11  
        SAUTER::SAUTER       24-JAN-1989  701.12  
>>>>>>>>AKOV88::BIBEAULT     24-JAN-1989  701.13  HIRING MANAGER'S NAME on VTX Jobs as Standard Data
>>>>>>>>AKOV88::BIBEAULT     24-JAN-1989  701.14  Re: .9 - A Personal Experience
            DR::BLINN        24-JAN-1989  701.15  Let's hope the situation improves
        NOTIME::SACKS        24-JAN-1989  701.16  
        PENUTS::HOGLUND      24-JAN-1989  701.17  I'll stick with what works, thanks.
         SMAUG::GARROD       24-JAN-1989  701.18  Leave it up to the hiring manager
        AKOV88::BIBEAULT     25-JAN-1989  701.19  Corp Empl Perpective on Listing Hiring Mgr Name
        AKOV88::BIBEAULT     25-JAN-1989  701.20  Lobby to "Let The Hiring Manager Decide..."
        PERVAX::THOMPSON     25-JAN-1989  701.21  clarification RE:.8
        PERVAX::THOMPSON     25-JAN-1989  701.22  from the VTX Jobs Book
        AKOV88::BIBEAULT     25-JAN-1989  701.23  Apology - and Recovery: The Debate Continues...
        WECARE::BAILEY       25-JAN-1989  701.24  Don't give up!
        PERVAX::THOMPSON     27-JAN-1989  701.25  TESS doesn't have hiring manager
>>>>>>>>AKOV68::BIBEAULT     27-JAN-1989  701.26  A Perceived Threat to the Role of the Recruiter?
        RAINBO::YEE           6-FEB-1989  701.27  what about elect address?
    

    As I mentioned in my reply to note 701 on this subject, recruiters
    are swamped with literally thousands of resumes (let alone information
    requests) per month.  It would be physically impossible to actually
    respond to each request even to explain that they are too busy to
    do the research requested.  (In our organization personnel department
    headcount is restricted to one person per X employees, and the ratio
    is not conducive to full-service. Plus it includes a lot of PSAs,
    secretaries, nurses, librarians, systems people, etc. as well as
    recruiters.)  I think the end result is that recuriters pre-eliminate
    (not choose) candidates for hiring managers, and work to assure
    that an attempt is made to satisfy EEO mandates and so on.  They
    are NOT the best way to get hired or relocated.
    
    As for reporting stuff back to personnel, I can't speak for other
    sites, but ZKO residents with Personnel comments can register them
    in the UCOUNT::ZKO_SUGGESTION_BOX conference.  That is moderated
    by the systems manager of ZKO Personnel who does report back the
    trends and comments in the file.
    
    And for job hunters, the best suggestion I know of is to network
    like crazy and get people in a hiring capacity to know you and love
    you!  (With the waves of unwanted junk mail, I usually send a mail
    message to suggested contacts asking if I may send a resume and
    writing sample -- when I'm looking at writing jobs -- and wait until
    they approve and expect it before dropping them into the Black Hole
    of Interoffice mail. That way I'm pretty sure I won't irritate a
    possible boss by intruding on them.  Also it gives me a reason to
    follow up later and maybe chat with them on the phone, often learning
    more about jobs and possibilities.)  For foreign candidates, you
    might want to contact the relocation person in personnel at the
    site/s you are thinking about for general information regarding
    the possibility of shifting.  
    
    Sherry
    
    PS  I wonder if recruiters shouldn't have two mail accounts, one
    for regular stuff and one for inquiries.  The inquiries (and resumes)
    account could have a permanent mail watch message saying "Your message
    has been received.  Due to the volume of activity in this account,
    I will be unable to make a personal reply, but please be assured
    that your message will be forwarded as is appropriate." ...or someting
    like that?  Then at least the uninitiated wouldn't feel ignored.
       

>    As I mentioned in my reply to note 701 on this subject, recruiters
>    are swamped with literally thousands of resumes (let alone information
>    requests) per month.  It would be physically impossible to actually
>    respond to each request even to explain that they are too busy to
>    do the research requested. 

	If this is the case then the system is broken. Period. Once upon a
	time I sent a resume to DEC. Two weeks later I sent one to IBM.
	In a weeks time I recieved a reply from IBM, replied to thier reply
	and got yet an other reply. Two weeks later I finaly heard from DEC.
	Basicly it took ten times as long to deal with DEC. Someone want to
	tell me that DEC recruters get ten times the resumes that each IBM
	recruiter gets? That would be hard to believe.

			Alfred

Re .17:

>    As I mentioned in my reply to note 701 on this subject, recruiters
>    are swamped with literally thousands of resumes (let alone information
>    requests) per month.  It would be physically impossible to actually
>    respond to each request even to explain that they are too busy to
>    do the research requested.  ...
...
>    PS  I wonder if recruiters shouldn't have two mail accounts, one
>    for regular stuff and one for inquiries.  The inquiries (and resumes)
>    account could have a permanent mail watch message saying "Your message
>    has been received.  Due to the volume of activity in this account,
>    I will be unable to make a personal reply, but please be assured
>    that your message will be forwarded as is appropriate." ...or someting
>    like that?  Then at least the uninitiated wouldn't feel ignored.

I seem to recall a statement from an authoritative source in this very
conference to the effect that "... contract recruiters are held to the same
corporate standard for responsiveness as internal recruiters that all resumes
be acknowledged within two weeks of reciept".  If there is indeed such a
standard, then "uninitiated" interviewees are entirely justified in being
dissatisfied with the state of affairs you seem to regard as inevitable.

There's a Gray Book which tracks software groups' SPR responsiveness.  Perhaps
the corporation has such a large problem handling resumes that there needs to
be a similar book to highlight and measure the problems of recruiters.
				/AHM

    *************************************************************************
    * This is a VAXmail reply to an *anonymous* writer who *incorrectly*
    * assumed my earlier comments/experiences related to AKO (Nagog
    * Park) Employment. They do *NOT*		
    **************************************************************************
    
	Thanks for your reply to my entry in Notes. I considered my input
	relatively benign so I can just imagine what you may have thought
	of - or said to - some of the other contributors...

	I'll try to comment on your points as best I can.

>     	First of all, recruiters serve an important purpose, especially
>     	in a company the size of Digital where the volume of resumes received
>     	is quite overwhelming. Digital is perceived to be one of the top 25
>	companies to work for in this country.  Recruiters not only support
>	hiring managers, but it is their responsibility to enforce Digital's
>	employment policies, as well as comply with federal hiring regulations. 
>	I will agree that the involvement of a recruiter varies from 
>	organization to organization based upon whatever agreement has been 
>	made with the hiring manager(s).

	Perhaps this is something you may want to post to Notes for all to see.
	It's obvious that they must have an important role otherwise Digital
	would not have so many. Most of the employees writing on this issue
	are frustrated, however, with the fact the recruiters are not, for the
	most part, acting as an advocate for applicants, actively helping them
	land their next job, etc. What needs to be explained is the recruiter's
	real role in this company, what can be reasonably expected of him and 
	the responsibilities of applicants in providing for their own career
	planning and networking. This has not been done and it is probably a
	disservice to recruiters that no one has really taken up the sword in 
	their defense...

>     	If you are having a problem with your recruiter, I would suggest
>	that you speak to the Employment Manager at your site, who in your case
>	is Lee Benson.  Complaining about him in a notesfile will not solve the
>	problem.  

	I know Lee Benson. I LIKE Lee Benson. I have NO problem with Lee Benson.
	If I were dealing with Lee, I'd be happy as a clam. Fact is, I had 
	recently been working on landing a job in another organization in 
	another part of the country. It was a recruiter in the ECA that was 
	unresponsive. Yet, as I said, as long as he provided hiring manager
	names in his reqs, I, personally, needed nothing more from this 
	individual. It would have been nice, however, to chat with him for a
	few minutes to introduce myself since I was pretty active campaigning
	in his area. I was flown out for two separate interviews for hiring
	managers he's supporting and have never had a return phone call. But
	I'm not complaining....	 and I'm not listing his name. 

	Associating Lee Benson and/or the AKO recruiters with my comments was
	way off base. I will have to forward a copy of this response to Lee
	to ensure that this misinterpretation doesn't hit the rumor mill and
	snowball out of control...
	
>	Besides, Recruiters do not have time to read notesfiles. 

	That one opinion. Put that in notes and you may be crucified, however.
	No one is as pressed for time as PSS consultants and specialists in 
	the Field who must bill as much of their paid time as possible. And 
	yet a very high percentage of these people are active in Notes. It may 
	be at midnight or on weekends but they're out there. They want to find \
	out what's going on, share experiences with others, etc. Recruiters 
	should have similar objectives. I don't think the issue is time so much
	as motivation - or perhaps, lack of training. I didn't know how 
	to access Notes until a few months ago...
	
>	The recruiters at AKO are some of the best in the entire
>	company and I have heard nothing but postive things about them.  Also,
>	the AKO recruiters list themselves as the Requestor Name on the majority
>	of their Requisitions on TESS.  

	I wholeheartedly agree. Can we clone the AKO recruiters and propagate
	them elsewhere?

>	I did not see your name listed as a Requestor nor was a hiring manager's 
>	name posted in any job descriptions.

	I have been an applicant not a hiring manager. I have hired
	people and/or been involved in interview loops in the past.
	I am *currently* doing neither as I am reassessing my priorities...
			       -------

>	If a hiring manager wants his name displayed in VTX, then by all means
>	he has every right to have the recruiter put it in the job description.

	Good. Why not reserve a spot for it in the VTX posting - not simply
	include it in the job description text?

>	However, there is no consensus among Digital managers tp post the hiring
>	manager's name in VTX -- otherwise, it would already be displayed.

	There's probably no censensus on whether Relocation: Yes/No should 
	be displayed either but it's there. Frankly, the hiring manager's
	name would be more helpful. Yes/No is too simple code for the 
	Relocation issue anyway since it is often negotiable and sometimes
	available to different degrees. For example, there are some positions
	in the Carolinas for which Digital employees are being offered "New
	Hire Relocation" NOT "Internal Digital Relocation". Is that Yes or No?
	How can Yes or No differentiate between New Hire and Internal?

Overall, I'm pleased that someone in Personnel is monitoring Notes and taking 
the time to attempt to perform needed public relations work with the employee
population. However, beware of incorrectly reading between the lines and 
assuming as fact the "conclusions" derived in this manner. 


Regards,

Bob

	Another aspect of the problem is that the personnel groups do not
    (usually?) work together.  This means that anyone (both internal and 
    external) interested in a job at DEC has to send resumes to many 
    different locations and (sometimes) to many different recruiters at the
    same location.  There is also little evidence that old resumes are searched
    when new openings come along.  This means that you may have to send your
    resume to the same recruiter several times.

    
    Someone mentioned about to find opening information from the
    JOBS notefile.  Well, the JOBS listing are entered voluntarily by
    hiring manager.  May be only 10% or less of opening are listed there.
    
    The problem with the VTX listing is it's terribly slow.
    The fact that they are listed in VTX is to discourage you to find any
    good information.
    
    Why don't they put into a database?  DEC is a computer company. 
    I read from previous note that there is some kind of central listing exist
    somewhere for personnel people use.   Why can'n let anyone to look through
    it?
    
    I worked at WANG before.  They have a listing database available.
    You can do search for hiring manager, department, job level, date...
    It is great.
    

    RE:.20
    
    I think it is VERY unfair to always post e-mail that is sent to
    you in a public notes file with NO permission given by the author. 
    If you want, I could point you to the note in this notes file that
    deals with notes file/mail forwarding/posting etiquette.  You are
    not making it easy for the anyone to help ease your frustration.
     
    RE:.22 
    
    I worked at Wang also before coming to DEC.  I was the MIS project
    leader responsible for all personnel software.  When I was there,
    (1981-1984) there was no such system.  (Wang didn't even have electronic
    mail or a network that we could use!!!)  What did this system do?
    How did you access it?  What fields did it show?  How recent was
    this?  Was it on their IBM or Wang gear?  When I was there, the
    databases for reqs were on separate Wang machines and couldn't 
    interface with each other.  
                                                       
    Patti
    
    

re:.23

As of 1986-1987 when I worked for Wang, they had one of the best corporate
wide electronic mail systems on the market.  (The product is called WANG
Office.)    When I joined the company, an entry was made for me in the 
local database, and within 24 hours, I was registered in every Wang
system on the network.  Their automatic directory synchronization features
are years ahead of anything MAILbus has to offer...  Its a shame that they
can only run it on Wang systems.

                                          Bob

    RE:.24
    
    When I worked there, the MIS department nor its managers had access
    to electronic mail unless they had had use of Wang Machines which
    had Wang Office on it.  These machines typically were used for 
    Wang Office only.  The development and production machines did
    not/were no allowed to have Wang Office on them. I am NOT saying
    anything about electronic mail at Wang.  I am saying that it was
    NOT available from 1981-1984 for me or my management.
    
    I was asking .22 for information about the Wang Jobs Database. 
    As you know, we have a Jobs database.  It's in VTX.  Your connection
    time to VTX will vary depending on how your machine is connected
    to the network and servers.  I would like to know what the Wang
    Jobs Database has to offer and how does it offer it?  Is it updated
    daily or weekly?  How did you access it?  What fields did it have? 
                                                                
    
    Patti
    

        Re: .24
        
> As of 1986-1987 when I worked for Wang, they had one of the best corporate
> wide electronic mail systems on the market.  (The product is called WANG
> Office.)
        
        My wife currently works for Wang in QA, but can't use WANG
        Office to communicate with the Wang employees who are developing
        the software that she is testing.  The people who control the
        network won't connect engineering to everyone else because `the
        engineers would use experimental software and break the system'. 
        
        Either WANG Office is incredibly fragile, the Wang engineers are
        incredibly malicious, or there is some other reason for not
        connecting engineering; but in any case it seems silly to use
        floppies to exchange software between developers and QA. 
        
        					B.J.

Thats not knocking WANG Office, thats knocking WANG Management... and
I agree 100%, which is why I now work for DIgital.

Bob

    let's get back to the topic: recruiters.....
    

       
       
       	And I'll get back to my original point, who's collecting all the
       info and showing it to Personnel so they can be helped in doing
       their job better? All this complaining in here is only allowing
       us to vent our feelings..
       
       						mike

    re: 20
    
    I wish I could say that AKO is not part of the problem.  However,
    while they may be no worse than anyone else, as far as I am concerned,
    they are no better.  There was a position there that I recently
    applied for.  I sent my resume and even got an acknowledgement in
    return.  That was the last I heard from them.  The hiring manager
    didn't want his name given out and I was unable to find it out through
    other sources.  All I know is a month or so later, I noticed that
    the job was no longer posted in the JOBS list.  I called the recruiters
    office to find out the status.  As usual the recruiter wasn't available
    so I left a message.  I was also informed that the job had probably
    been filled.  When I asked why I wasn't notified in any way, not
    even a " Dear John" letter, I was given a "Gee, we must have missed
    this time."  A month after that phone call, I am still waiting for
    that recruiter to return my call.  If this were an isolated incident,
    I wouldn't worry about it too much.  After my nine years at DEC,
    I find that this experience is more the norm, than the unusual,
    however.
   
    Personally, I don't think that our recruiters are arrogant.  When
    I do have occasion to speak with them, they are generally quite
    pleasant and easy to get along with.  I think the problem is they
    have too many things to do that don't relate to recruiting.  It
    seems that most of the time, when I try to contact a recruiter, their
    secretary says they are at such and such meeting.  I have reported
    this experience to my local Personnel manager.  He was properly
    sympathetic and recommended, in the future, to find out the name
    of the hiring manager, no matter what it takes.  Which I already
    knew.
                                                   
    Mike

    re .31
    
    >There was a position there that I recently
    >applied for.  I sent my resume and even got an acknowledgement in
    >return.  That was the last I heard from them.  The hiring manager
    >didn't want his name given out and I was unable to find it out through
    >other sources.  All I know is a month or so later, I noticed that
    >the job was no longer posted in the JOBS list.  I called the recruiters
    >office to find out the status.  As usual the recruiter wasn't available
    >so I left a message.  I was also informed that the job had probably
    >been filled.  When I asked why I wasn't notified in any way, not
    >even a " Dear John" letter, I was given a "Gee, we must have missed
    >this time."  A month after that phone call, I am still waiting for
    
    You should have received a note of acknowledgement that your resume
    had been received for the opening you were applying for. I think
    it unreasonable for you to want notification that the position was
    filled. We carry an average of 50 openings. Some openings will attract
    30+ responses. There is no way to both acknowlege receipt of the
    rsume and then follow up with those candidates after the req is
    filled. 
    
    I acknowledge resumes here at VRO. We are one employment
    office that  I hope people don't mind doing business with. All internal
    resumes are acknowledged within 3 days, hopefully less. I send E-mail
    responses, but it's amazing how many resumes we receive from internal 
    people with no contact information (phone or node) on them.

    We do send letters to people that have interviewed for a position
    and are not hired. Unfortunately not all sites have the staffing
    to do such acknowledgements.
    
    It is not employments role to find you a new position. It is up
    to you to network and find out about the kinds of work you want
    to do. A recruiter can best help you after you've determined what
    job it is you are looking for. Many recruiters will give informational
    interviews, where you can find information about the groups they
    support, the structure of the job family your interestd in and possibly
    leeds to where to find other sites that might have jobs such as
    the one you want. 
    
    Try not to group all employment and/or personnel people into on
    bunch. Don't approach the job search in a defensive manner, employment
    can be value added if you're willing to help.
    
    Gail Koski
    VRO Employment
        

    I agree, not all are arrogant.  Some are just plain uncaring.  After
    my experience with them, I will always attempt to go around them
    in the future.

    Re: .31
    
    >You should have received a note of acknowledgement that your resume
    >had been received for the opening you were applying for. I think
    >it unreasonable for you to want notification that the position was
    >filled. We carry an average of 50 openings. Some openings will attract
    >30+ responses. There is no way to both acknowlege receipt of the
    >rsume and then follow up with those candidates after the req is
    >filled. 
     
    As I indicated, I did receive acknowledgment that my resume had
    been received.  
    
    Every time I have been involved in trying to find a job in other
    companies, if a determination was made that I was not suitable for
    the opening in question, that fact was always made known to me,
    either by a letter or a phone call.  Somehow, it seems to me that
    it is at least discourteous to leave people hanging with no idea
    as to what has been decided relative to their application.
                                  
    Please do not take this as an indictment of you personally, but rather
    one of the system as it is practiced within DEC.  I don't doubt
    that you, and probably all DEC recruiters, are overwhelmed with work,
    but in todays age of modern computer technology, it hardly seems
    like an onerous task to send a form letter to people who are not
    under consideration for a job opening.  Especially for internal    
    people.  After all, a response would only be a few keystrokes away.
    Since this is strictly a clerical job, surely the recruiter doesn't
    have to do it personally. 
        
    I don't think I said it was employment's role to find me a job, I said
    it was their job to handle my request for consideration for a
    particular job for which I applied.  Indeed, all my transfers with DEC
    have been through my own efforts.  Employment people were brought in
    only to formalize the paper work.  If only recruiters would give me the
    name of the hiring manager, I would be more than willing to set up my
    own interviews and generally conduct my own search.  So far, they
    haven't been willing to do so. 
    
    Again, I don't intend to attack you or any other recruiter personally.
    If it seems that way, then I apologize. I realize that you have to
    live within the system just as much as the rest of us do.  I do wish
    the system could be changed, though.   
    
    Mike

    On the matter of internal candidates that are not suitable for the
    positions that they apply for: Rejecting candidates is a difficult
    job. We do not send no interest letters to internal applicants,
    because there is no such thing as having no interest in a DEC employee.
    Therefor all internal applicants, that in reality we have no further
    interest in, are treated as possible or future interest applicants.
    
    This is the reason the letters I send say that we will contact you
    if we have further interest. Rather than sending what an external
    candidate would receive which states "no further interest".

  
    Gail

    Re: .35
    
    I'm sure the people who receive your letters greatly appreciate the
    distinction. 

    re: .35
    
    Horse hockey!  What is so difficult about telling someone who applies
    for a job that he/she is no longer under consideration for that
    specific job?  I agree that rejecting candidates isn't easy.  However,
    one of the jobs that someone who aspires to being a recruiter does, is
    telling people that they aren't suitable for a job.  If you can't
    handle that, then maybe you ought not to be in the recruitment
    business. 
    
    >Therefor all internal applicants, that in reality we have no further
    >interest in, are treated as possible or future interest applicants. 
     
    Why don't you treat us internal job applicants with a good
    healthy dose of reality when it is appropriate?  What possible reason
    can you give for doing otherwise? 
    
    Mike

    Mike,
    
    The reason I contribute to this note is because I am trying to broaden
    other employees views of what goes on inside employment. Don't
    get on my case, I'm just reporting the news, I don't make the rules, 
       
    I take pride in how I do my work, and I try to do the right thing.
    I think the response level that comes from my office is above average
    from other sites. 
    
    I happen to agree that the no interest in internal candidates is
    BS at time, but those are my personal feelings. We all have a job to 
    do and we try to make a difference, I'm just following the rules.
    
    Gail