Conference 7.286::digital

Seems quite typical in Digital nowadays. Generally speaking the manager
was wrong to make you a VERBAL OFFER. It has made you get your hopes
up high with little to hold on to.

Generally speaking YOU theoretically could claim that YOU were in the
assumption that the person making the offer to you was also eligible
to make that offer. From your note there is no indication that you
doubted this persons authority.

Again theoretically the extended verbal offer is BINDING. 

That is however all THEORY.

       In reality you do not have any thing to GRAB onto. It's your
       word against theirs. Obviously they have made a mistake. Probably
       the manager will twist the conversation saying something like

       " I did not say that, he must have misunderstood me ...". What can
       you do about it? Not much.

       Even if you could bully them into making the contract BINDING, you
       would be starting off on a BAD FOOT. What boss would like someone
       in his group who MADE him DO something (for which he inevitably would
       get chewed out for)?

You are right that head-count and slots should be available before interviews.
People tend to jump the gun though.

It appears that the department has given you a very open and honest insight
into their disorganisation and back-biting environement (an insight NO-ONE
ever wants to portray).

Unless the job is really FANTASTIC and you can do what ever you want, I would
learn from the experience and tell them to take a leap. After all you have
experienced, WOULD you want to WORK WITH THEM 9 hours a day?

I'm sure there are plenty of other JOB openings that would meet your 
requirements.

Good luck.

	To help me understand this issue, I looked up the word
	"verbal" in my dictionary.  It means ...

	    verbal (adjective)
		Describing something that does not have or make sense.
		stuff, bilge, trash, idiocy, balderdash, blather, bunkum,
		claptrap, drivel, eyewash, piffle, poppycock, rigmarole,
		tomfoolery, twaddle.
	    verbal (adjective)
		Unintelligible or foolish.
		double-talk, gabble, babble, blather, blatherskite, gibberish,
		jabber, prattle, twaddle.

	Regards, Robert.

    
    From my memory of Business Law, an offer is not binding. It becomes
    a contract when there has been an offer and an ACCEPTANCE.  If there
    was an acceptance, then there was a contract. If there was not,
    than an offer can be retracted at any time prior to acceptance.
    If you accepted, I'm not sure what position you would be in if the
    person was not authorized to make you the offer. Good luck and let
    us know what happens.
    
    Caroline

    Re: .1 and .3
    
    Mistakes are made every day...even in the best organizations.  I
    know of one very good personnel department for instance, that
    was told to make an offer to a potential employee for a Software
    Specialist II position.  Somewhere, the communications got jumbled
    around, and the person was offered a Specialist III position instead.
    
    Many of those specialists in that local office were really ticked about
    this because of the persons obviously lower capability/experience
    level, until they found out it was a non-retractable mistake.

    Doug

    I was taught that a verbal offer is "worth the paper it's printed
    on!"
    
    Get ALL offers IN WRITING before resigning from anything current.
    Assume a verbal offer to be advance notice that you are a contender,
    but not a concrete deal.  You can get your work in order, think
    about the transition, but don't burn your bridges.
    
    I once worked in a planning agency in Michigan.  There were two
    divisions, Planning and Administration.  I had a job with the
    Administration Department which was government funded and due to
    run out in a couple of months.  The head of the Planning division
    asked me into his office and told me he wanted to offer me a job
    in his group which would be "permanent" and which would pay lots
    more -- I was thrilled, accepted, and (fool-that-I-am!) wrote letters
    of resignation and acceptance with copies to my boss and the Agency
    Director.  So I had formally resigned. The problem was that the
    Agency Director hadn't been told about this plan and he was p****d
    as hell about the other guy (who, by the way, is NOW Director!)
    going "behind his back".  He had nothing against me, but he prohibited
    the change anyhow.  So, technically, I was out of a job!  My own
    fault for not getting it in writing. (Fortunately my boss kindly
    refused my resignation and we let it go at that...except for a lesson
    well-learned!)
    
    GET IT IN WRITING!!!
    
    Sherry

    
    Words of wisdom from 20 years ago in sales.
    
    "You have not closed the deal until you cash the check."
    
    Thus, regarding new positions, it's not real until the day you start
    work in the new job.
    

    			... and successfully cash the first paycheck!

    RE .6
    If I had waited for a letter from Personnel when I joined DEC, I
    would not have had a job here.  The letter arrived three weeks after
    I had started.  I do not know how far you have to go to get a valid
    offer (who has the authority to make an offer), but the paper work
    is so slow that you sometimes have to accept a verbal offer.
    
    FWIW,
    Lee G.

    This in no  way  is  to  justify  the mistake made by making a verbal
    offer while the position wasn't open, but things are tight.
    
    I  found  myself in a somewhat similar situation, but in the opposite
    side,  when  I  changed  jobs last spring.  I had been with the  same
    group, in different responsabilities,  for about five years, and when
    a reorganization happened and I  was  not considered for the position
    that my previous manager and I  had  discussed, I thought it was time
    for a change at which I told  my new manager my intentions on looking
    for a job elsewhere.  As you are  aware, it's been a year now that it
    is  very  difficult  to  increase  headcount in non-revenue producing
    groups, so finding the right group with an opening is not a matter of
    a few days.
    
    The  next  thing  my  manager did  was  to  talk  to  personnel,  and
    immediately posted my postion in the  jobs  book.    It  took  me six
    months  to  find  the  job  that I  have  now  (which  I  found  very
    refreshing).  During that time my manager interviewed many people for
    my  position,  but  I  think  he always let them  know  that  it  was
    contingent to me finding a job.  I found myself  even talking to some
    of the candidates that knew me.
    
    Again, my manager did the right thing of explaining that the slot was
    not  open, but my job was offered long before I left, and  he  didn't
    extend an offer until after I left.
    
    As side information, on the final interview round for my current job,
    when I was  interviewed  by the personnel manager, he told me that he
    still  had to square  out  some  headcount  details,  giving  me  the
    impression  that the position was  not  100%  solid,  but  they  came
    through.  That tells me that hiring is still looked very closely, and
    with our profits going down, I don't see that changing.
    
    So, the fact that someone made a mistake is reprobable, but  the fact
    that they are very interested in you as their eagerness to extend you
    the offer may show,  may  compensate for that mistake if the group is
    worthy.
    
    OD/

    
    I while back I was extended a "VERBAL" offer for a position, digital
    internal. I stated that I could not act on a verbal and that I needed
    it documanted.  Verbal offerings are NOT binding.  YOU have the
    responsibility to obtain a HARD copy.  You are a busines unto yourself
    it should not be embarrising to request a "contract".  Even then
    DEC has a way for all its good hype to screw it up.  I have yet
    to meet ONE good personel person.  The job I started this reply
    with is my shinning example.  I recieved an offer in the mail (US)
    and accepted the position.  The Thursday bofor I was to start, (the
    following Monday) I was told that there was a mistake in the offer
    and that there was to be a decress in the $$ amount.  I won't go
    into the details, but needless to say if Digital can renig on a
    formal document offer from the responsible manager then a VERBAL
    offer is  usless.
                                   
    There are FAR too many manager who don't see what it is this company
    SAYS it stands for and are out just to cover up there acts.
    
    Hope you get the position anyway.
    
    Good luck
    
    
    Hope you still get the position
    

My last round of interviews with DEC was on a Friday.  The following 
Monday, I was supposed to be out of state at a training class for my
then current employer.   At the end of the interview, we had come to
an understanding, and an offer was going to be extended.

My then current company did not have a very big training budget, and I 
didn't want them to waste it on me if I was about to resign, so I asked
the District Manager to have Personnel in Maynard(?) Fed Ex the offer
to me so that I would have it in my hand on Saturday, and could give my
two week notice on Monday.  

Saturday morning there was a knock on the door.  It's one of the few times
I didn't mind being woken up at 7am on a Saturday!  8-)

Bob

    I feel obliged to recall how well I was treated by personnel.
    In 1976 my wife and I returned to the US.  The only job in
    sight was an offer from DEC.  An I got a written offer in September
    of 1976.  Unfortunately, a medical condition arose unexpectedly
    and although I wanted to accept the offer I was going to have to
    delay starting the job for three months.  I wrote back explaining
    the situation and DEC held the offer open for me through December.
    In December I had my physical done at DEC (still not yet officially
    employed) and that revealed another potential problem.  At any rate,
    DEC would not allow me to start without first conferring with some
    medical consultant.  I got the news of this possible problem a few
    days before Christmas, when we were living with my dad.  Needless
    to say we were depressed.
    
    On Christmas Eve personnel called late in the afternoon to say
    I could start work.  That care and thoughtfulness made for some
    very happy people.
    
    I bitch and bitch about DEC, but this is just one example of why
    DEC is better than most other places.
    
    Rich

    RE: .4
    
    Having absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand, but a contract
    consists of an offer, acceptance and CONSIDERATION. Three elements,
    not two.  Consideration is something of tangible benefit to the
    "offerer".
    
    Al
    

    So this is still going on!   (invalid verbal offers) I have heard
    of this happening to both internal AND external canidates.  I talked
    a very good IC Test Engineer, who used to work for me at another
    company, into applying for a position in Phoenix (this was several
    years ago).  He received a verbal offer at the end of the day with
    a promise of a written followup.  He never received it.  He called
    about a week later & was informed that they had changed their mind.
    
    This applicant swears that he will NEVER apply for a job again at
    DEC.  This occurred several years ago, and he still relates/talks
    about his bad experience with DEC.  I wonder how many other qualified
    canidates have been turned off by his experience?  
    
    BTW, I also received a verbal offer when I interviewed with DEC
    back in 1975.  After several weeks & no written offer, I received
    a telegram to call "personnel @ DEC'.  When I called in, they asked
    me when I was going to reply to their offer.  I said "what offer".
    Seems like they forgot to send it out!!!!!!!!!!!  Anyway, things
    got straightened out, I got my offer & joined DEC almost 13 years
    ago.  Its a darn good thing that I didn't need a job right away,
    or other companies were bidding for my services....Between the lost 
    offer, a physical that needed special approval by the DEC doctor,
    etc., the whole thing took over two months to finalize!
    
    dr
    
    

    hmmm, interesting. I always thought that unless you had a written
    offer, there was no guarantee that you actually HAD the job. I have
    been told that if you had an offer letter, then there were some
    legal implications. 
    
    I dunno...maybe I'm just a skeptic. I wouldn't believe a verbal
    offer.
    
    jg
    

An oral contract is just as binding as a written one (both are "verbal,"
by the way), but the problem has always been establishing that it was 
properly framed and that it actually existed.  
If your discussions were witnessed, then you could press for compliance 
or an alternative.  (Legally, "sue for specific performance" or 
"sue for damages.")
But as has been noted, who could work comfortably with a boss when you
had to hold a gun to his head to get the job?

    re: .14
    
>    Having absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand, but a contract
>    consists of an offer, acceptance and CONSIDERATION. Three elements,
>    not two.  Consideration is something of tangible benefit to the
>    "offerer".
    
    The future services of the offeree should be sufficient consideration.
    
    
    If a donative promise (a promise to make a gift without consideration)
    is relied upon by the promisee in a manner that should reasonably
    have been expected by the promisor, the promise may be legally
    enforceable to the extent of the reliance.
    
    

    The enforcability of such offers may be moot in any case.  Since
    most states in the U.S. operate under a doctrine of employment at
    will, you can be fired at any time for any reason (except those
    specifically invalidated by statute).  You could, perhaps, force
    someone to hire you, but you can't force them to keep you on.
    
    -dave

    
    When in doubt, (when someone mentions headcount "administration"
    needs to be worked) ask to see a signed personnel requisition.
    In the field particularly, where reqs. are in many cases gated on
    some new contract for revenue, the managers will try to line you
    up before the req is signed.
    
    If you get a verbal, do not accept until you get the follow up written
    offer.  Your manager might extend a verbal to replace you, (binding)
    and then not be able to keep you.  Your on the street at that point.
    
    fun huh??

    Re .19
    
    Just for the record, I believe Massachusetts has a Wrongful Termination
    statute now (at least it did a couple years ago -- don't know if
    it's been retracted).  It means that a company CAN'T just fire you
    without proper justification.  It used to be that they couldn't
    fire you only if you were protected under EEO statutes, but now
    they have to show cause.  Of course, there's a more legal way to
    say all that, but, you catch my drift.
    

    "A verbal offer isn't worth the paper it's printed on."
    
    
    KBS
    

    	... unless there is a disinterested witness.

    re: .22
    
    A verbal contract is worth no less than those entering into it.
    
    My sympathies they [the contracts and the people] have no value in 
    your world.
    
    
    Don

    Re: .24
    
    Please note that .22 used quotation marks to quote a very old and
    well-known legal maxim concerning the difficulties of enforcing oral
    contracts. The way I read .22, he was not expressing his own sense of
    ethics, but rather was quoting the legal practicality. I am not willing
    to turn the quotation into a personal implication, however lugubriously
    expressed.