Conference 7.286::digital

    First off, have you tried asking your boss for help? That is part
    of what they are there for.
    
    In the area of other places to ask. How about:
    
Sales Support			CAADC::SALES_SUPPORT			  668
Marketing issues		ASIMOV::MARKETING			  820

    A look through ANCHOR::NET$LIBRARY:EASYNOTES.LIS may show up some
    more.
    			Alfred
    

    re .1
    
    My boss is one of many people I plan to ask for advice, and one
    of many I will ask to review my recommendations.  The customer's
    Sales Rep is obviously also an important player.
    
    However, this job is MY responsibility to handle, not my boss's,
    not the Sales Rep's, not KO's - MINE.  I'm asking for input and
    advice, which I will use appropriately in my recommendations.  This
    situation might apply to other efforts out here in the field - that's
    why I entered it in DIGITAL.

    - Greg Scott

Re: .0:

I think you should give your honest recommendation. Just be factual in
your approach; and as long as you don't exaggerate or distort, there
shouldn't be a problem. (At least that's my $.02 worth.)

In case you're not aware of it, the BISTRO::RDB_VMS_COMPETITION conference
(press SELECT or KP7) contains many entries mentioning INGRESS. Of special
interest might be note 91 by Hal Berenson, a guru in the Rdb/VMS development
group. (If you use info from that note, written 3/13/88, make sure it still 
applies to the latest versions of INGRESS and Rdb/VMS.)

- Chuck Murray  (Rdb/VMS documentation group)

Follow-up to .3: Also of interest in RDB_VMS_COMPETITION is
note 159, a pointer to a report comparing Rdb/VMS V3.0 and
INGRES V5.0. 

    1. OK, the decision is YOURS! But that doesn't stop you from
    putting together a package consisting of YOUR decision and its
    rationale, and then go talk to your manager about the package
    and how it's likely to be received by the customer. Two heads
    are frequently better than one.
    
    2. If INGRES is worse for this application, why not discuss the
    technical aspects with the person who is recommending INGRES? Perhaps
    he will tell you something you don't know, or vice versa. Perhaps the
    two of you could agree on a way you could resolve the conflict. A
    benchmark does seem reasonable.

    Greg, you also mentioned something about your credibility with the
    customer.  If you allow INGRES in there, feeling the way you do
    about the product, and it lives up to your expectations, what would
    *that* situation do to your credibility with the customer?  Even
    if the customer won't go for a benchmark, I think you should tactfully
    and politically make it known that you don't like the INGRES solution
    and why.
    
    I don't necessarily believe in being able to say "I told you so"
    to a customer, but that is certainly a better position to be in
    than having to answer "Why didn't you give me your opinion?"
    
    Good luck
    Jon

        It's always the "right thing" to recommend DEC's products when
        they are the right solution to the customer's problem.
        
        While I can sympathize with your reasons for posting this in this
        conference, some of the others mentioned really might be more
        appropriate.  The MARKETING conference would be very appropriate
        to the general concerns of presenting the right message to the
        customer and dealing with the customer in the long run, even if
        the message is ignored at first.  Since this conference (DIGITAL)
        is going to be unavailable for several days this week, and you are
        under some time pressure, you might want to continue this in
        MARKETING.  (Just because a topic may be of interest to other
        people later on is not, in and of itself, a reason to post it in
        this conference.) 
        
        Tom

    I would first check with the consultant. Many of these DB consultants
    recommend a particular product because it is all that they know.
    The guy may not have looked at Rdb since version 1.
    
    As for the customer, the bottom line is BE HONEST. You can do that
    without getting into a political hornets' nest.
    
    The worst thing that we as a company can do is to say "Oh, it's
    political...let's not discuss it." Then both sides of the political
    spectrum get mad because neither is supported, and the problem itself
    remains unaddressed. In addition, the internal dispute may make
    systems acceptance much more difficult.
    
    You don't have to throw mud at a competitor when you tell the truth.
    Saying that Rdb is better suited to the VMS environment is hardly
    throwing mud. The VMS environment is Digital's lifeblood. Ingres
    also runs on VM and PC systems. They are not as dedicated to VMS
    as we are. That is not throwing mud. We have more user and development
    tools. That is not mud. That is fact.
    
    We handle TP better, because $1 billion of our business is done
    in the sphere of TP. Ingres has never been a player in the OLTP
    market.
    
    Ingres market share in the Digital world has been declining for
    the last 4 years as Rdb market share has been climbing. That is
    not mud.
    
    In short, you are not throwing mud IF everything you say is provable.
    
    ---- Michael Booth
    
    

    
    	I agree with .8.7 etc.
    
    	You are not "bad mouthing" a product if you state the
    	facts, "toot your horn" and tell the customer why he/she
    	will be better off with DEC than co. A.
    
    
    my .02
    DH

    Take a good look at the 12 July Competitive Update (Special edition).
    
    It describes DECtp and page 51 through 54 compare Rdb with INGRES.
    
    Good Luck,
    
    Doug

    The "right thing to do" is to be agressive about getting this account
    off of third party databases.  We will never own this account as
    long as they have a third party database, it will leave the account
    open to other vendors hardware and software.  
    
    The worst thing to do is to be timid about comparing our products
    to those of Ingress.  We can legitimately and agressively demonstrate
    our database strengths against the competition. To fail to go on
    the offensive will loose the sale and ultimately the account itself.
    
    Get off of your high horse and fight for this one!!
    
    
                                                
    

    "Get off your high horse and fight for this one"  (from .11)
     OK!  Go ahead, kick me - it feels good...
    
    Here's what happened...
    
    I put in the original note, replied to the first entry, then went
    out of town for a couple days.  I figured I would come back and
    find a whole bunch of good advise I could then use on my final report
    back to the customer.  Well.... I didn't know that HUMAN:: would
    be gone for the next 3 weeks.  (I learned today the node number
    changed, but we didn't update it in NANUCK::.)
    
    So I gave my report to the customer, and here's what I did with
    the INGRES problem.  (BTW, I don't think I ever was on a high horse.)
    
    We presented to their VP of MIS. This guy had to report back to the
    president and board of directors to get permission to buy big stuff.
    Towards the end of our presentation, I said I appreciated the chance to
    present, and as an intelligent comsumer, it was good they are
    evaluating DEC as a vendor. This kind of evaluation keeps vendors
    honest.  Then, I recommended they test INGRES as thoroughly as possible
    in a live, multi user environment.  The VP-MIS asked me why I said
    that. 
    
    He said, "you must have had some reason to suggest that, and I want 
    to know why."
    
    I told him that his whole business depends on their database (it
    really does).  The choice of database products could literally make or 
    break his company.  Before he makes a bet like that on a product, he should
    thoroughly test it before commiting the entire business to it.
    
    He thought this was a good idea.
    
    Then I said that DEC has some products in this area that we think
    are better than what anyone else has to offer, and we would like
    a chance to compete.
    
    We shook hands and I think everyone was happy.  As near as I can
    tell, DEC is still part of the good guys with this customer.  We'll see
    if they follow our recommendations.
    
    - Greg Scott

        Greg, I think you handled that really well.  I especially like
        the way you acknowledged that competition is healthy, and that
        we believe we have the products that should win in a competition
        for the customers' business.
        
        Tom