Conference 7.286::digital

    
    	Something doesn't make sense here.  Besides being "against"
    	 credit cards for whatever reason, what if you *can't* get
    	 one?  I know of some people who have gone bankrupt in other
    	 (pre-DEC) endeavors, and can't get credit.  Or those who
    	 have loused up their credit ratings in the past.
    
    	If the company insists on someone having a credit card, the
    	 burden should *not* be on the employee.  I can't see how
    	 an employees credit rating is any of DEC's business.
    
    	BTW - This interests me greatly, as I have just accepted a
    		F/S position here in Atlanta.  Out of the Support
    	 	Center and into the fire, as it were.  I wonder if
    		I'll get the same thing??
    
    
    				-Rich
    

    I'm with IN-DEC or Internal Field Service for the old timers. So
    far we have not heard about the credit card application shake down.
    Of course we are in the CXO plant and have petty cash, Guide Travel
    does all of the ticketing, and cash advances. It might just be your
    branch. Now if you want rumors, I heard travel letters where going
    away. Maybe company credit cards are step one.
    	Greg

    We were given Diner's Club applications also.  However, Digital
    guarantees the account, which means no one will be turned down.
    It was made clear that the employee was responsible for paying the
    account and keeping it current.
    
    I got one, simply because I was asked to.  Digital paid the yearly fee,
    so there was no reason not to.  Then I started receiving written
    information on the accounts of all my direct reports:  when they paid
    their bill, itemized lists of their charges, whether they were
    delinquent, etc.  I immediately realized that "Big Brother" was sending
    the same kind of information to *my* management on *my* own account.
    While I paid my bills on time and really had nothing to hide, I have a
    very serious problem with that sort of information being sent to my
    manager, especially without my being notified in any way. 
    
    I also learned very quickly that if you aren't renting a car or
    buying a plane ticket, you can just about forget Diner's Club. 
    Very few restaurants and hotels accept it.
    
    So I cut up my Diner's Club card and sent it in with that month's
    bill.  I now charge business travel on my own plastic, and Digital
    gets no reports at all on my payment history or on what I charge.
    
    If Digital is being billed directly and paying Diner's Club directly,
    then I believe they have the right to insist that you use one for
    business travel.  But if *you* are held responsible for the card, then
    I don't believe for a minute that the company can force you to apply
    for and use that or any other credit card. 
    
    						Pat

    In an other life a manager complained about my requesting a 
    travel advance every time I made a big trip. He asked me to
    get an AmEx card. Well, I had one for a while but the company
    was taking so long to reimburse me that I had trouble making
    the payments on time to I gave it up. When this big shot complained
    to me I went right to my boss. I told him why I no longer felt
    I could use my plastic and that if he wanted me to take business
    trips he could either supply an advance or a bill direct credit
    card. I got my advances.
    
    Let's face it, DEC or any company sends people for training or
    business meetings for the companies benefit. It hardly seems
    fair to make employees lend the company money (that they pay interest
    on) at no interest to the company for things that are done for
    the benefit of the company. I've got an AmEx now and I'd probably
    use it on a business trip now because I trust DEC more then I did
    that other place. Still, the first time DEC was late on a reimbursement
    I'd require an advance the next time.
    
    			Alfred 

I also have a corporate Diner's Club card, and I like having a distinct
piece of plastic, and a distinct account for dealing with company expenses.
(I don't like mixing personal expenses with company expenses.)
As .-1 points out, however, many establishments that will accept credit
cards like Visa/Mastercard, etc. will not accept Diner's Club cards.  Thus,
I often wind up using my cards anyway ...
    

re .4

Unfortunately, there are a lot of managers at DEC who don't see training as
being for the company's benefit; they are perfectly happy to let employees
keep doing the same old job and not advance, or do a new job and learn how
at the customers' expense.

------------------------------

I just got a new "No annual fee ever" Premier VISA with a $10,000 credit limit.
(Also, no interest charges if paid within 25 days of billing.)

A clause of the agreement says that the card is for personal use only, and may
not be used for business purposes!!  I'm trying to get this clarified at this
point in time.  I use my AMEX card for most things, but have a VISA card for
those many establishments that do not accept AMEX.

/john

    I used to have the corporate Diners card, but ripped it up and sent
    it back to Diners about 2 years ago.  Reason: at that time, I was
    working in the field, and reimbursements were taking longer than
    the Diners billing cycle, and I couldn't see paying interest on
    something which I had absolutely no control over.  And it was made
    *very* clear to us that we could *not* include interest charges
    on our expense reports.  I also didn't want the world to see my
    payment history (like Pat); nothing to hide, just don't like the
    principle.
    
    I do think, however, that plastic is almost a requirement for anybody
    who travels quite a bit.  I use my gold Amex for hotels, get a cash
    advance for meals, and use direct-Digital-billing for both airline
    tickets and car rentals.  And here in MKO, expense report turn around
    time is usually less than 3 days.
    
    Jon

I also have AMEX for business only. I knew about the Diner's reporting to
management, so I threw the application in the trash. I don't mind paying
for my own card, though. It's worth the money for the peace of mind.

As for .0, it is perfectly within your rights to "forget" to send the
application in, or throw it in the trash or whatever. If you want the card,
then fine. If you don't, then any sort of "threats" coming from your
management are GENERATED LOCALLY. In SWS, anyway, there are no consequences
for not having a DC. It might behoove you to sort out the seriousness and
origin of said threats, though, before making your decision.

FYI,

K.

�    < Note 413.7 by TIXEL::ARNOLD "Don't take NH for granite!" >
�                           -< use your OWN plastic! >-

�        tickets and car rentals.  And here in MKO, expense report turn around
�    time is usually less than 3 days.

    
    	Must be nice!  Here in IPO, the turn around time is *3 WEEKS*,
    	 and that's _if_ you're lucky!!  I turned in an expense report
    	 for a trip that ended Aug. 2, and just got my check Oct. 21!!!
    
    
    					-Rich
    

    Re: .7 and .9
    
    My experience here at ZKO has been about the same as reported for
    MKO.

    re .4
    don't understand, get the advance for the estimated cost of the
    trip, charge everything in sight on the trip, then put the the expense
    report when you come back.  With AMEX and delays in bills trickling
    up to them, you've got 30 -- 60 days for the report to clear before
    AMEX freaks out.
    
    re .6
    I've always interpreted the "non-business use" to mean that I shouldn't
    start a small machine shop business and charge the the lathe, et.
    al.
    
    Expenses like meals, hotels... that DEC is going to pay for (and
    for which I could easily have an advance) seem to me to be different.
    
    /s/ Jim Williams

Up until this fall I never had any plastic besides a dusty Sears card. On
the few business trips I've taken, I'd always get an advance for between
$700 and $1100, in traveler's checks.  (Boy is it "writer's cramp time"
when you check into the hotel - they want the room paid for up-front).

People had commented on how inconvenient the traveler's checks must have
been, but I've never had a manager take exception at getting the advances.
Anyone traveling with me who had plastic just dumped most of the advance
into their credit card accounts as soon as they got it, and used their
card for the big things like the hotel.

I always seemed to be traveling near the end of a fiscal year (Spring
DECUS, summer SIGPLANs, etc).  I was under threat of dismemberment if I did
not submit the travel expense report the day I got back, in order to get it
through the system before the end of the fiscal year.  However, I've always
had some excess money - I generally owe a few hundred dollars.  So I've
never been in the position of waiting weeks or months on end for an
additional reimbursement.
				/AHM

I got the explanation on the VISA clause which states "You agree to use your
account exclusively for personal, family, household, or charitable purposes
and not for business or commercial purposes of any kind."

First Signature Bank & Trust is a savings bank, and not chartered to issue
commercial loans.

As an employee of DEC expecting to be reimbursed, any business use is considered
to be personal use.

If I were a proprietor of my own business, I would not be able to charge any
major business trip (e.g. a $2000 trip to DECUS in California) to the account.
I could charge some small business expenses, such as meals in restaurants that
don't accept AMEX.

/john

The Company should provide the wherewithal for financing business trips.
I usually travel with an advance, and almostalways get company-paid
airline tickets and rental cars.  Hotels, however, often need a guarantee,
and credit card (by phone) is the easiest way to take care of this.
However, I don't like using up my personal credit line for this,
and I don't care for large business-related expenses showing up
on my financial history.  I recently applied for a mortgage,
and made it clear to the bank people that recent two and three week trips
to France and California were not my normal mode of personal life.
I inquired about getting a Diner's Club, but I declined when I found
out that if I had one, I wouldn't be able to get Company-paid airline
tickets anymore.  Since much of my travel is planned enough in advance
to qualify for discount rates, >I'd< have to pay for tickets
weeks or months before I took the trip.

Still and all, I got a separate credit card that I reserve for business use.
A compromise, but one I can afford.

On the matter of expense account turnaround.....
If your manager is on-site, then his or her approval ought to be immediate.
The ZK and MK examples (also ML, HL, etc) are based on local petty cash
offices.  Field offices who have to mail expense reports in lose time 
in the mail, and probably don't get the priority they deserve when they
arrive at the petty cash office.  With no one to shepherd them through,
they will likely get delayed.

- tom]

>< Note 413.7 by TIXEL::ARNOLD "Don't take NH for granite!" >
>reimbursements were taking longer than the Diners billing cycle, 
>and I couldn't see paying interest.... 
    
    "interest" on late Diner's Club payments ? Gee, when *I'm* late
    (for the same reason !) they threaten to CANCEL it !
    
    karl moeller sws TUO

re: < Note 413.14 by REGENT::POWERS >


> I inquired about getting a Diner's Club, but I declined when I found
> out that if I had one, I wouldn't be able to get Company-paid airline
> tickets anymore.

I have had a Diners Club Card (from my CSC days) and have NEVER had
to pay for a company-business ticket out of my pocket!  For that matter,
I've used the DC for get-home type flights when delays caused me to
need to go a different route than was scheduled.  The company can get
a better break using their travel agents and company charge accounts
than you can, so it doen't pay for the comany to make you buy your own
tickets.

BobW

another funny thing about first signature - they told me that,
instead of billing you on the Nth of the month, they bill you on the 
nth business day of the month - a 3 day window
weird.!.!?!?

    Our District Manager returned from a trip to the grumbling which prompted 
    to raise the credit card question.  He explained that we all had
    been (unknowingly) charging airline tickets to a single credit card
    belonging somewhere in the Region.  That card has, for reasons unknown
    to me, gone away, and the DM thought it might be helpful for each
    of us to have his/her own card for travel purposes.  While he was
    away, it was presented in a vein not intended by him.  So it's
    not mandatory after all.
    
    I greatly appreciate all of your comments on the subject.  And I
    am happy to work in an environment where we can question and discuss
    matters without getting chopped for it.     
    
    Thanks again.
    
    Fred           
    

    
    I have a company DC card. I like to keep my business related expenses
    separate from my personal expenses. I've never had problems with
    the billing cycle, since I use my Traveletters, get my expense vouchers
    done and signed and sent the first business day after my trip. I
    know people in the group who use their personal credit cards. They
    recently received a letter that all airline tickets must be charged
    to the DC card.
    
    In any case, for those who don't want "BIG BROTHER" to know about
    their expenses, what is the difference between using your personal
    card and itemizing expenses and turning in receipts with your expense
    voucher and using the company DC? 
    
    Also I have a company ATT card. I was told that the itemized bill
    goes to someone in Corporate, not even my manager gets to see this.
    Any comments on that one?

    RE .16 and others
    
    Concerning not being able to get Company-paid airline tickets
    if you have your own Diner's Club.  I have recently obtained a Diner's
    Club and when booking flight reservation for a recent trip, the
    travel agency (American Express) charged them to my personal card
    -not to the coporate card as they had done in the past.  When I
    called to find out why, I was told that it was "Corporate Policy"
    when the employee has a personal card.  I am contemplating tearing
    up my old card, using AM EX since it is a real pain in the
    youknowwhat's to get a bill for $750.00 or whatever for those tickets.
    
    

    re .20
    
    I'm interested to know how they (Amex) managed to charge anything
    to your personal card. Did you give them the number ? I can only
    assume the answer is yes. So surely the solution is not to give
    them your personal card number. I wouldn't give any of my credit
    card numbers to anyone - far too dangerous !
    
    Here in the UK, a TRF (travel requisition form) is all that is required
    to book any kind of ticket (rail, sea, air etc), hire car (Avis, Hertz
    etc) and hotel bookings. All you need is to fill in the form and get it
    authorised. The money gets paid centrally and allotted to the
    requestor's cost centre. Hotel bills have to be paid for by the emplyee
    on departure unless a prior arrangement has been made. Most people use
    their Amex or DC or VISA etc cards and then claim the expense in the
    usual way.
    
    I find the idea of booking company travel on personal credit cards
    a bit over the top ! (I bet it helps company cash flow quite a bit
    though !).
    
    Jon        

RE: .19
    
  > They recently received a letter that all airline tickets must be
  > charged to the DC card. 
    
    If the DC card is in Digital's name and the bills go to Digital and
    Digital pays them, then I have no problem with that at all -- it's like
    the Air Travel cards we used to have. If the letter meant that Digital
    is *requiring* an employee to have a particular credit card in that
    employee's own name, then I believe it is illegal and totally against
    policy. 

  
  > In any case, for those who don't want "BIG BROTHER" to know about their
  > expenses, what is the difference between using your personal card and
  > itemizing expenses and turning in receipts with your expense voucher
  > and using the company DC? 
    
    It's merely a matter of principle.  I have no objection to "Big
    Brother" knowing about my expenses; those expenses are "Big Brother's"
    business.  When and how I pay my personal credit card bills is
    absolutely no business of anyone in Digital's.  The "when" and "how"
    as well as the "what" are being reported to management.
    
    I think that the whole issue of privacy boils down to a matter of
    principle, and this is a clear-cut issue of my right to privacy.

    
  > Also I have a company ATT card. I was told that the itemized bill goes
  > to someone in Corporate, not even my manager gets to see this. 
    
    As far as the itemized bill going directly to Digital for payment,
    that's the way it should work.  If Digital elected to do this with DC,
    then I'd be the first in line to get one. 
    
    However, when I was a unit manager, I got an itemized list of
    employees' phone calls and the charges.  I see nothing wrong with that.
    If I had a Digital DC card, I'd expect my manager to get an itemized
    list of my expenses.  The difference is that the card itself would be
    in Digital's name, and Digital would pay the bill. 
    
    							Pat

    The last time I traveled (its been about a year) I got the tickets
    and the normal statement from our local agency (Guide Travel at
    CXO) and the tickets were charged to a Diners card. I thought it
    was mine (they have the Digital supported Diners card number on
    file) and I started to raise h**l. The secretary pointed out to
    me that the number it was charged to was not mine but a number issued
    to card holder Digital Equipment Corp. This was just a new method to
    direct bill the company using the normal path of billing the tickets
    to a credit card. I calmed down because it was not my card account.
    I don't know if anyone else does it this way (or even if CXO still
    does).

    			Dick

    re: a couple back:
    
    Last time I took a business trip (actually, am *still* taking it),
    I made the air reservations via American Express, as usual.  But
    as far as where to bill the tickets, I had only two choices: (1)
    bill Digital directly via their DC account, or (2) charge my personal
    DC.  Since I don't have a personal DC (my choice), I had only option
    #1.  Crimson used to let me put it on my own Amex/Visa/etc, but
    in checking into it, this is the new agreement reached with Amex;
    ie, only bill Digital's DC account or your own corporate DC account.
    Can't even charge it to your personal Amex, which seems like a
    kick in the teeth for Amex...
    
    fyi
    Jon

I guess I'm missing something, but whats the problem with the Diners Club card?
When I travel, the last thing I want to bother with is Travelers Cheques... All
that signing and countersigning, etc.  Plastic is much simpler, and gets you
through the lines faster.

As for the company card,  I use it on business, for business, and when I get 
back, I write a Traveletter Draft for the amount.   If I cash the draft right
away, I get 30-60 days of free interest on it, while it sits in my checking 
account waiting for my DC bill!  Not a problem as far as I'm concerned.

If you're afraid you'll spend the money before the bill arrives, just don't add
it to your balance, and you won't know its there (for the weak-willed).

I think its a great system... I don't have to tie up my personal funds to 
travel on company business, and I don't have the liability of toting around
a large cash advance.  If my company card is lost or stolen, I don't even have 
to worry about the usual $50 liability... Digital covers that!

I've worked for GE and for WANG, and believe me...this beats their system by
far!  I once had an expense account at WANG that was up to $1300, and it took
me 8 weeks(!) to get reimbursed!!!   Needless to say, I took cash advances 
after that.

BTW:  I left Wang in August... I had an expense check arrive at my mailbox 
      the other day...Date of expense 7/03/87  date of check 11/16/87 !!!

Hooray Digital!

Bob

    Just curious Bob (.25) what is your weekly Traveletter maximum?
    
    When I was in the field, I found that $125.00 just didn't cut it...
    
    Gil
    

    The major problem I'd have with a company Diners Club card is that
    almost nobody accepts DC, so I'd have to use my personal cards
    (Amex, MC, Visa) anyway.  Amex would have been a FAR better choice.
    
    					Steve

The reason I cancelled my corporate DC was the billing of airline 
tickets to it, rather than to a central account.  While normally this 
isn't a problem, it can be if you buy tickets in advance to save DEC 
money.  At the time, the policy was that if you have a corporate DC,
the airline tickets were billed to it, no choice. 

For Spring DECUS, I bought the tickets a little over a month in
advance to get super-saver rates to save DEC money.  I got the DC bill
and it was DUE before I left for DECUS.  I tore up by DC card when I
returned. 

I don't know if airline tickets are still being billed to your DC if 
you have one, but that was the only real problem I had with the program.

John,

Re: Airline Ticket Billing

	What's the issue?  You SPENT the money for a legitimate expense, write 
it off on the NEXT week's expense report.  Put it under MISC if you have to, 
noted as "ADVANCE AIRLINE TICKET - DECUS", or note that in the "FROM/TO" 
column on the regular side.

	Anyone tried that?  I wish I could say I have, but my travel usually 
is on such short notice I can't get the advantages!

    Re: Advance Airline Tickets
    
    It's been stated to me that tickets can only be expensed after use,
    to avoid problems with canceled/cashed-in tickets.  I ran into the
    same trap last year:  If you are going to go Super-Saver, and your
    going to charge it, try to do it close to the cut-off of the billing
    cycle, or DC is going to haunt you about it ...
    
    Re:  Corporate Card vs. Personal Card
    
    As mentioned before, the Diner's Club Card is *NOT* a corporate
    card per se:  it has your name on it, and it affects your credit
    record, and *you* are ultimately responsible for it.  The company
    merely insures that any balance put up for collection will be paid
    by the company.  This is different than the phone cards and the Air
    Travel cards, which the company is directly responsible for.
    
    I see no reason to grant anyone the right to invade my privacy over
    something that has my name on it and that I am responsible for.
    While it's hard to see how it causes any harm, where do you draw
    the line?
    
    Geoff
    

RE: .24
    
    Jon,
    
    Why use Crimson Travel / American Express?  When we moved here, we had
    all sorts of problems with the travel agency that Digital uses.  My
    husband also works for Digital, we have the same last name, and that
    agency was *forever* mixing us up when they made reservations! In
    addition, they always had trouble handling the fact that neither of us
    has Digital-issued DC cards, and charge all travel to our own personal
    Amex cards. 
    
    So...  We simply don't use them anymore.  We have been using a small
    local travel agency, and getting really good service.  They go out
    of their way to find reduced-rate airline fares for us.  Perhaps
    the nicest thing is that they send *us* a monthly statement.  Digital's
    travel agency sends *Digital* a monthly statement, but nothing to
    the individual employee!
    
    So, why not find a travel agency where YOU are the customer?
    
    							Pat

>    So, why not find a travel agency where YOU are the customer?

Well, there is this little thing in the Policies and Procedures manual that
says you have to use the Digital travel agency.

If you've found a way around the policy which guarantees that some finance
manager isn't someday going to say, "Sorry, can't reimburse you for this
airline ticket; it wasn't issued by American Express," I'd like to know
about it; I'd like to use my own travel agent.  (Happens to be Crimson,
but I don't *let* them screw up.)

/john

    Re .31
    
    Pat, if I could, I would.  However, the *best* travel agent around
    that I've found is now working for Amex travel here in Merrimack,
    a transferee from Crimson.  She goes above & beyond the call of
    duty to find the absolute guaranteed lowest fare, whether the flight
    is Manchester-Pittsburg or Boston-Singapore.  But for business travel,
    John is right in .32; which is also why I have only the choice of
    direct billing Digital for my tickets.  My only other choice is
    to use my own Diners Club card, which I tore up a long time ago.
    
    I just think it's kind of a shame that Digital uses American Express
    travel services, but won't allow employees to charge the tickets
    to the employee's American Express cards, and even worse, forcing
    American Express to charge it all to Diners Club.
    
    Kind of like drinking Stroh's in the Anheuser-Busch cafeteria...
    
    Jon

    By jove, you're right!  I looked in P&P and, sure enough, it says
    employees MUST use the travel agency contracted by Digital.  If I had
    the option of direct-billing plane tickets, I wouldn't mind that so
    much, but since I have no choice but to pay for them myself and then
    wait for reimbursement, I have a problem with being told that I MUST
    use a specific travel agency.  Particularly since that agency has given
    me really bad service.  Oh well, guess that's a risk I have to take.
    Digital will refuse to reimburse me only once... 
    
    I noticed another interesting tidbit in P&P while I was reading.
    I don't have it in front of me, but it specifically stated that
    "rewards" such as "free tickets" are the property of Digital and
    must be accounted for.  That seems pretty clear to me that free
    tickets gotten with frequent flyer miles must be turned over to
    Digital.  Yet I don't know of any employee who has ever done it.
    Anyone have any experience with that one?
    
    							Pat

RE: .34 (free tix, etc)

Ummm...Yes.

My grandboss (boss' boss) and I were on the same flight out of Logan
one day when the plane was overbooked. We got bumped and were given
free tickets. Since he is/was the cost center manager, I figured if
anyone was going to stick to the policy, it would be this guy.

He did not enforce the policy. As far as I know, it has never been
enforced. I understand why it is written down, though. Otherwise
folks might go nuts to get freebies...

FYI,

K.

    The topic of free tix/bennies is discussed at length in the
    DELNI::ON_THE_ROAD conference.
    
    Jon

    RE: .35
    
    Well, I remember when in the late 70's-early 80's when the free
    ticket thing first started, there was an article in DTW reminding
    people that those tickets belonged ot DEC, and a very dillegent
    effort was made to track down who got them and to get them back.
    I remember a lot of people had either sold them or planned to use
    them on vacation, and you saw a lot of ads in DTW from people desparate
    to pay a small ($50-$100) so they wouldn't loose their vacation
    deposits.
    
    Deb

       I've been 'off the road' for about a year, but still have an
    American Express card (in my name) that DEC Management requested
    me to get in 1985 after a trip to Texas!
    
    						regards,
    							Bob
    

    I started with DEC a few months ago.  I was told about the company
    Diners Club card, theTraveletter program, and the rest of the
    administrivia.  I don't mind the company snooping into my Diners
    Club transactions to any great extent, so I filled out the application.
    Now the plot thickens.  After getting my Diners Club card, I was
    told that in order to be eligible for the Traveletter program,
    I had to fill out and sign a statement saying that DEC was authorized
    to charge my Diners Club card for any Traveletter overcharges! 
    
    -- John

    re: 413.39
    
    If you get that in writing (ie "As a condition of accepting the
    Digital-sponsored Diners Club card and/or Travelletter, you must
    sign this authorization"), please post it here.  If you don't get
    it writing, then I'd regard it with extreme skepticism.

    By the way, I just read (in DTW, I think) that you can now choose
    between Diners Club and American Express for your company credit card.
    
    				Steve

    RE:-1 How can I change my DC for the Amex??  Is this possible?
    
    Regards,
    
    Keith R>

    Well, not having a corporate card myself, I wasn't too interested
    in the details, but as I understood it, when your DC is up for renewal,
    you can request an Amex instead.  Talk to whoever administers the
    things in your area for specifics.
    
    				Steve

    re .42:  If you have a DC corporate card you probably received by
    now the booklet answering such questions.  (I got mine recently.)
    
  --Simon