Conference 7.286::digital

        We got a memo from personnel which said that the new rate for
        the first half of 1987 would be 8.9% and that the rate would
        be reviewed every 6 months thereafter.
        
       _Mike
        

Wasn't the deadline for switching funds 12/15?  Anyone know when (how)
they initially made this information public? 

(PS - there is a detailed discussion of the SAVE plan in 
NY1MM::INVESTING)

    	I have a question, and this seemed as good a place as any to post
    it. I had always heard that most companies provide matching
    contributions to their 401k/SAVE plans, but Digital never has. I'd also
    heard that $1B companies all provided matching contributions.
    	In yesterday's Sunday Boston Globe, a recent survey found that 84%
    of ALL companies providing matching contributions, and employees were
    much more likely to participate in the plan when this was the case
    (which makes sense).
    	I've always wondered WHY Digital doesn't do this. Not that I want
    to drive the company into the ground or anything. I've just heard that
    our SAVE plan is mismanaged and inefficient, making it difficult to
    even manage it without matching contributions. Does anyone know the
    truth or real reasons why the company doesn't provide matching
    contributions?

    
    				-<COST>-
    

    Having come from Lockheed where there was a "matching" contribution,
    I'd like to point out that many employers that do this have soem fine
    print that's not obvious. Lockheed's plan for example had their
    contribution in an escrow of sorts that did not belong to the employee
    until it was there 5 years. For example, you contribute $1/yr for 5
    yrs, employer contributes $.50, after 5yrs + 1 day, you have access to
    $5.50 (6 yrs: $7.50). If you withdraw at 5 yrs - 1 day, you get ONLY
    what you put in. Of course, I've left out interest, etc.

    Re:*.5
    
    The 401K plan for Storage Technology Corporation included a matching
    contribution (100%) for every dollar the employee invested in the plan.
    They also included a unilateral profit-sharing contribution to the plan
    that ran between 1% and 2% of your annual salary - if they had any
    profits.  In many years they did not.  Storage Technology did not offer
    a pension plan.
    
    As with the Lockheed plan in the previous note, the company contributions
    were fully vested after five years of service.  I believe this is
    required by Federal laws and is the same for all employers.

re: .5

I believe that the rules concerning 401-K plans vesting were changed when
pension plans vesting rules were changed.  I think they are both subject to the
'must be  fully vested after no more than 5 years of service' rule.  The
company my wife works for matches employee contributions.  The vesting schedule
for the company matching funds is something like

	Years of Service		% Vested

	0 - 2				  0
	3				 30
	4				 60
	5 or more			100

It does make sense since it is a long-term savings vehicle and thus the vesting
schedule encourages employees to stay around.

Bob

    re: the past few regarding the cost of c0-funding the 401k.  I read
    somewhere recently that DEC has not been funding the pension plan for
    the past few years due to past overfunding.  Perhaps that money could
    have gone into a SAVE co-funding program.
    
    (If anyone has facts that show my understanding of the pension fund is
    wrong, please let know..thanx)
    
    Mark
    

    re: .8
    
    Even if your understanding of the pension funding is correct, it
    would seem like a bad idea to use temporarily-available funds (I'm
    assuming the pension plan will be funded again 8-)) to initiate a
    permanent 401K co-funding program.  Sort of like buying a car with a
    48-month loan, knowing that money would only be available to pay for
    the first 14 months.
    
    A 401K co-funding program should be a long-term committment to an
    employee benefit, not a temporary stop-gap measure.

    RE: .8
    
    I'm not aware that the pension fund was ever co-funded by DEC.
    What happened a few years back was that the IRS declared these
    type pension funds "leveraged funds" and, as a result, many people
    no longer put money into them because any tax advantage was lost.
    
    If someone else has other knowledge then, I stand corrected.
    
    Ron

    I'm confused! As far as I know,NO money is taken from our checks
    labeled "pension fund". This pension fund is supposed to have money in
    it put there by our employer. So,if DEC isn't funding the pension
    plan,who *is*?
    
    Ken

    I didn't mean to imply that we pay into the pension fund.  DEC pays
    into the fund for our future retirement without any individual
    participation.
    Mark
    

    Clarify a point for me, the title of the note is "SAVE Information"
    which is NOT the DEC paid retirement plan.  The portion of the SAVE
    plan, which sort of resembles a 401k, is called "The 401(k) Tax
    Break",( aka: "Vanguard Funds") and are 100 per cent employee funded.
    Which retirement plan is under discussion?
             

    	I originally asked the question about co-funding the 401(k)/SAVE
    plan. The pension discussion arose when someone thought that because
    DEC provided a pension plan, this might be the reason why they didn't
    contribute to the SAVE plan....And I did ask *why* the company is in
    the small minority of companies that don't contribute.

    OK Ron,I'll clarify. (at least I think I will)
    A few notes back,you specifically refered to the "pension plan". There
    is only *one* pension plan at DEC. This "pension plan" is also called
    the "retirement plan". This "pension aka retirement plan" has
    absolutely and positively nothing to do with our 401(k) plan known as
    the SAVE plan. The big difference between the two plans is that we
    don't pay one cent into the retirement plan (totally funded by DEC)
    while the SAVE plan is totally optional for us. (we put money in with
    the expectation of making a profit on that money)
    Any clearer,or have I muddied the waters more?
    
    Ken

    Another question regarding the SAVE plan.
    
    Does anyone know why Digital caps the percentage of salary that can be
    invested in the SAVE plan at only 8%?  I know that this is not a
    federal law, as my wife at Pacific Bell is able to participate at
    higher percentages.
    
    - Dave

    8% is the max you can invest Taxfree according to IRS regulations. Some
    companies allow a larger SAVE deduction but only 8% is a "before Tax"
    deduction, the rest is an "after Tax" deduction.

I don't think that's true.  From reading financial mags, tax code, and talking to
my mother (who used to do tax for a living), the actual federal limits are 
higher, and generally run more towards a maximum dollar amount per year, all
of which is ultimately limited by how much is invested by the lower income
employees.

I believe DEC's 8% was just chosen as an easy to explain way to get closest to
the federal limitations.

    	The reason I asked about this in the first place was because I had
    heard (rumor mill) that if the SAVE program was managed properly, the
    company could not only provide matching contributions but also wouldn't
    need to stop deductions in the middle of the year for people making
    >$50k/year. I don't know enough about 401(k) plans to understand what
    sorts of tax benefits the company could receive through matching
    contributions and whether a better-managed program could provide
    additional employee benefits at little or no net cost to the company.

    I have a question...
    
    I have had an IRA the last 10 years and contribute the maximum
    $2,000 per year.  I know that the $2,000 is not tax deductible,
    (although the interest is deferred) since we have a retirement
    plan provided by Digital.  
    
    My question is: 
    I have just started the SAVE plan this year and want to know if 
    I can have both IRA and SAVE.  My husband thinks he read in the 
    original SAVE booklet that you *can* have both but is now being 
    questioned by fellow workers as to the legality of having both.  
    
    Anyone know?
    
    Thanks,
    Jodi-

Yes, you can have both.  If you had to choose one, SAVE would probably be the
better bet, as you're probably allowed to make a larger yearly contribution to
it, and the contribution is tax defered (not tax free - just defered, as IRAs
used to be).  But, if you're at the limit on your SAVE contributions, then an
IRA could be another place to put your money.  Although the contributions to 
an IRA (for a DEC employee) are not tax defered, the interest earned on the
account is.

    I have a question about SAVE.
    
    If I should take this elsewhere, pls let me know.
    
    I have a SAVE loan, and I believe that the intrest payments I make go
    into my SAVE account.  However, on my SAVE statement, it shows "Loan
    repayments (Principal)", but does not show where the interest I pay is
    credited to my account.
    
    Am I missing something??
    
    another question - this is really more of a gripe - i made a SAVE loan
    against my SAVE balance - this means that I borrowed money, and put my
    SAVE shares (Windsor Fund) up a collateral for the loan.  Well it looks
    like the Windsor shaes i put up for collateral were sold to obtain the
    funds that were loaned me.  when I repay the loan, I will not get all
    my collateral back - the shares have gone up in price and i will get
    fewer shares, as I understand it.  If i pawned these shares at a
    pawnshop, i would expect the same number back whenm I repaid the loan
    and interest.
    
    I feel the justification for this may relate to the idea that the
    interest is supposed to go into my account, so it really is not a loan
    at all, but I cant see where the intrest goes, as noted above.

    i believe the shares necessary to cover the loan ARE sold (the money
    has to come from SOMEWHERE!)   Later the money is re-invested as the
    loan is paid off.  I never thought about it, but it makes sense that if
    the fund had gone up dramatically while you had your money out, you
    wouldn't be taking advantage of that gain.
    
    Selling the shares is one reason why it takes so long to get a check out of
    SAVE.  Your shares have to be sold first with many others.  I was
    talking with the administrator last month and I happen to ask how many
    loans they were processing in December against SAVE accounts.  She said
    *500*!  What a paperwork nightmare...!

re: .19   	

  <<  The reason I asked about this in the first place was because I had
  <<  heard (rumor mill) that if the SAVE program was managed properly, the
  <<  company could not only provide matching contributions but also wouldn't
  <<  need to stop deductions in the middle of the year for people making
  <<  >$50k/year.

I'm only guessing, but it doesn't seem to me that management of the fund is in
any way related to mid-year halting of $50/year deductions.  I'm under the
impression that the halts are mandated by a govt. regulation that stipulates
that 401K plans such as SAVE are not to be discrimitory to lower salaried
employees, and that DEC must ensure there's a proper balance in the amounts
contributed by various ranges of salaries. As one could easily imagine, lower
paid employees just don't have the option of lower take-home and probably
don't contribute corresponding percentages. So DEC has to meet the requirements
by limiting the total amount contributed by the >$50Kers.  And that's 
independent of how the plan is managed.

I suppose if someone really cared, they could call the SAVE folks and ask for
an explaination of why deductions are stopped.

	/Marvin

    Like IRA's programs such as 401k are funds limitating as to government
    regulations concerning deposits. In IRA's it's caps related to marital
    and family status. In 401k's it's depositors income in relation to
    others particapating in the plan. Neither plan is perfect and both
    penalize those who with hard work make enough to deposit income for the
    future but who are restricted by unnecessary government regulations
    from doing so. God forbid one could become prosperous and be restricted
    from planning for the future.
    
    Regards
    Al Root
    

    I have tried repeatedly this week to find a number where I can talk to
    a human being regarding save plan loans.  I want to take a loan, and
    all I get is a blasted computerized processing system.  I have basic
    queations like.... how much can I borrow?  How long is the approval
    process?  Do I have to provide credit information?  How do I calculate
    the payment?  Some of these items are answered by the computerized
    system, but I want to speak with someone before I make a decision.
    
    The number in the phone directory is 223-6000 (computerized system
    picks up).  No other number is listed, anyone got one?
    
    Thanks.
                                   

    Try 223-4020.  I had the same problem...hard to believe there are no
    #'s listed in the phone book to talk to a human in the entire Investor
    Services (?) dept!
    
    My question was about paying off a SAVE loan early and was told I had
    to get the payoff amount from them (figure on the balance from computer
    was not right for payoff) and someone would call me.  That was 10 days
    ago and no call (I have voicemail).
    
    Good luck!

    The 223-6000 menu will lead to to a choice where you can talk to a
    human.  Be prepared to wait on-hold ("until a rep. becomes available")
    for � hour.
    
    L.

    Re .26 - a few answers (I recently applied for/received a loan):
    
    You can borrow up to 50% of the value of your total SAVE account.
    You can obtain this total value via a recent SAVE statement or via
    a call to the Touch Tone system.  There is a maximum number of
    concurrent SAVE loans which you can have at one time (I believe it
    is two).  I suspect, but am not sure, the total value of all loans
    must be less than the 50% value of your SAVE account.  They show
    the "total if all loans were repaid" figure on your SAVE statement.
    
    When you apply (via the Touch Tone system), they send you a promissory
    note form and a payment schedule.  The form must be notarized and
    returned to the Investor Services folks (pre-addressed envelope
    enclosed!).  You must return the form by the 15th of month "n" to
    receive a check by the last day of month "n+1" (i.e., 15th of February
    for a check by the 31st of March).
    
    I don't know if they actually do any credit checks.
    
    You can use any of the "standard" mortgage loan calculation tables
    or programs to calculate the payments.  Many of the programs won't
    accept 52 payments/year, so you may have to use 12/year and then
    divide the monthly amount by 4.33 (close enough for estimates).

    re: .29
    
    Approximately how long does it take to receive the promissory note
    after one applies via TOUCH-TONE?  I've heard that this can take a long
    time (?).
    
    Thanks.

    Re .30:
    
    I believe mine came within two weeks.

    
    
    re .earlier 
    
    >Do they do a credit check
    
      No.  (Probably because it's your own money that you're borrowing. )
    
    
    							-al
    

I concur with .-1.

No credit checks are done.  When you apply for the loan, you specify to the
computer system how many weeks you want the loan for, up to 208 (4 years).

The money is deducted weekly from your account.

The one question I have that is not answered anywhere, is this:  who gets the
interest?  Is it credited back to your account? (In other words, are you
paying yourself back with interest?) Or does the money go elsewhere?

John

    The interest goes into your 401(K) account.  A really neat way to pad
    the account if your have lots of slack in your income.  And taxes on
    the interest income(!) is deferred.

    Of course, you pay taxes on that interest portion twice...
    Once when you earned the money to pay off the loan/interest.
    Once when you retire and pull the money out of the account.
    
    Dave

    Besides, what does it matter to you whether you pay the interest to the
    SAVE account or whether a bank does? 
    
                                          August G. Reinig

    
    Yes the interest goes into your account, BUT unless you absolutely
    need the loan from that source think twice.  I currently have 
    a SAVE loan I just started paying on (I had no other option) and the
    rate is 10%.  If my account, for example, is earning 12% or 13%,
    then all the money still part of the outstanding balance of the loan
    is not in there earning me that higher rate.  I lose 2 or 3% in this
    example.  In general the SAVE plan has been returning at a higher rate
    than the loan rate you pay if you borrow.  Be aware of that.
    
    Steve
    

    	Yes, but at 10% interest it is better than almost any other
    	loan (unsecured) you can get anywhere else.  If you can get
    	a better rate somewhere else, leave your money in SAVE and
    	borrow from the other source!
    
    	Joe Oppelt

         <<< SUBWAY::DISK$D1:[NOTES$LIBRARY]DIGITAL_INVESTING.NOTE;1 >>>
                                Digital Investing
Created: 23-JAN-1992 14:20          16 topics         Updated: 24-JAN-1992 17:14

================================================================================
Note 1.0                Introduction to Digital Investing             No replies
SUBWAY::SYSTEM                                       10 lines  23-JAN-1992 14:25
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    This is the spinoff conference of INVESTING.
    
    This conference discusses all aspects of investing in Digital and the
    corporation's employee investment programs including ESPP and SAVE.
    
    This conference is not sponsored by Investor Services or any group
    related to them and is not a channel of official communication for
    Digital.  This is an employee discussion conference.
    
    Patrick Sweeney

    
    Re: .38
    
    Your SAVE loan is not an unsecured loan.  It is secured by the
    funds you already have on deposit.  An additional risk is if you
    get into financial difficulty and can't afford to make the payment.
    I don't know what happens, but if what they do is suspend the
    payments and declare the unpaid balance a distribution then you
    become liable for the IRS penalty of 10% of that amount plus liable
    for income tax on the entire amount of the balance.
    
    fwiw,
    Steve
     

    Re: .40
    
    The money you borrow from SAVE is your money and the shares you have 
    are sold to finance the loan.  If you do not repay the loan for
    whatever reason you are subject to the penalties of early withdrawal.
    
    So it is unsecured.

    
    Re: .41
    
    I suppose it is semantics.  The point is that you are borrowing
    money that you have already set aside so in that sense it is
    secured.  You are right, however, if you can't repay you become
    subject to the penalty. I suppose the difference is that if you
    borrow from a bank, they can go after you for the entire amount
    if you default.  If you default on a SAVE loan, the worst that
    happens is that you pay regular income tax on the unpaid balance
    and a penalty equal to 10% of the unpaid balance to the IRS.
    
    Steve
    

From:	NAME: U S Benefits                  
	FUNC: U.S. Personnel                  
	TEL:                                  <USBENFITS AT A1 at SALES at MRO>
To:	See Below


  New SAVE Plan Fund A Quarterly Interest Rate to Decrease Slightly in Q1
  
  The new quarterly blended interest rate for the SAVE Plan's Fixed 
  Interest Fund (Fund A) is estimated to be 6.4% annually for the period 
  July 1, 1994 through September 30, 1994.  This represents a slight 
  decrease from the current quarter's estimated rate of 6.56%.
  
  Fund A is made up of several fixed, individual insurance and bank 
  contracts that mature over different time periods as well as 
  short-term, variable Money Market investments.  The Fund A Investment 
  Manager can predict fairly accurately what the contracts will earn in 
  any one quarter, but the actual rate is not known until the contracts 
  mature.  Each contract and Money Market instrument yields a different 
  rate, and these rates are blended together to determine actual 
  quarterly Fund A earnings.  The average maturity of the entire fund is 
  three years.   
  
  The decrease in the blended rate for the next quarter is primarily 
  attributable to the re-investment of proceeds from maturing contracts 
  into short-term Money Market investment vehicles.  This strategy is 
  being pursued as the Company prepares for increased fund transfer 
  activity in 1995 when new investment options will become available to 
  plan participants.  Information about these new options will be 
  provided during Q1.    
  
  If you wish to make changes or review historical fund performance....
  
  If you wish to make changes to your current SAVE contribution or fund 
  allocation, you can do so at any time, but you must make the change by 
  June 15 in order for it to take effect on July 1.  Call DTN 223-6000 
  for Investor Services' Touch-Tone telephone system.
  
  To review the SAVE Plan Funds' historical performance, type VTX SAVE at 
  the $ prompt.
  
  
  
                      DIGITAL INTERNAL USE ONLY Document
  
Distribution:
This message was delivered to you utilizing the Readers Choice delivery 
services.  You received this message because you are a U.S. Employee.  If 
you have questions regarding this message, please contact the author of the 
memo.

UNIX Users:
- to send VAXmail:    [email protected]
- to send ALL-IN-1:   [email protected]

	The reason I posted the previous note was not because of the new
	rate. Rather, it was because of this little tidbit that I noticed
	in the middle of the message:

>  The decrease in the blended rate for the next quarter is primarily 
>  attributable to the re-investment of proceeds from maturing contracts 
>  into short-term Money Market investment vehicles.  This strategy is 
>  being pursued as the Company prepares for increased fund transfer 
>  activity in 1995 when new investment options will become available to 
>  plan participants.

	New investment options? I smell big changes coming...

	Roy    

 rep -1 ... care to speculate ?

    I took part in a focus group on the SAVE program aboput 2 weeks ago. 
    Purpose was to find out what questions we had about SAVE and what we
    were doing personally to plan for retirement.
    
    What came out of this meeting is that the in-house Digital staff that
    handles the paperwork for SAVE (8 people) will be outsourced to a
    company that specializes in managing 401K programs.  No decision was
    made on who that company would be but Fidelity is one being considered.
    
    Two complaints that came out of this meeting were that we were not
    offered enough choices for investments and that quertly changes were
    not sufficient.
    
    We were told by the consultant from Towers Perrin (the industry leader
    in this stuff) that most other companies offer more choices than
    Digital and that this may change in the near future withthe new
    management company.
    
    

Here are the notes thatI took at the Focus meeting I was at.

	-mark

    Feel free to share these notes with anyone you wish...  The following
    is a rough rambling of notes.

    I recently went to a pension/retirement focus meeting sponsored by an
    outside firm Digital hired.  It was my impression that this company
    will replace our internal group who is currently doing this job.  Their
    goal was to listen to a small group and share some ideas and see how we
    reacted.

    GENERAL
    -------

    There was a wide array of people involved.  Some had not planned for
    retirement while some were well planned.  It was evident that people
    were not sure of their options and training would be VERY helpful for
    people interested in planning.  The outside company seemed interested
    in trying to provide training/information for people so we could do the
    best planning for the future.

    They were interested in how many people did planning for retirement and
    what type of planning.  How much retirement money we felt would come
    from social security, pension, 401k, and personal investments.

    We were asked how employees would feel about a new program for
    retirement would go over, if it was presented now (under current
    conditions).  The common feeling was, if it costs the same as before
    and it allows us more flexibility and better return on investments,
    then we should implement the program.  If it cost more, then wait.

    It was mentioned that people should expect to need 30% of their OWN
    money (money saved outside of pension, SAVE, and Social Security) for
    retirement and how should this be presented or maybe we should wait to
    present it to employees sometime in the future because of current
    conditions in the company.  The general feeling was tell people up
    front so they can plan, as best they can.

    SAVE
    ----

     1) They were interested in our perception of its ease of access to
        current programs (SAVE, etc.)
     2) People felt they should be allowed to change funds and xfer money
        between funds more than 4 times a year.  Monthly was OK, but weekly
        seemed to be best.
     3) The current funds are not well chosen and we should get better
        choices.  Multiple people expressed that there are by FAR better
        funds available and why were we not using them.
     4) More funds should be added.  It would be nice to have the FULL
        Fidelity line available.

    I mentioned how poor our current choices were and would like to see a
    company like Fidelity, Putnum, or the like, to service our 401k plan. 
    At best our current choices are mediocre.

    It was mentioned that the reason some people invested in SAVE was
    because of the TAX advantages, not because of the selection of funds. 
    The fund selection needs overhauling.

    They seemed to be interested in presenting a 'self directed' (you
    choose the fund, possibly from multiple vendors) or a 'blend' choice.

    Blend meant you were given choices A through F, with A being the least
    risky investment and F being most risky.  A person could then choose
    their risk...  A would give a return of 4-5% and F would be 20-25%
    (these were not actual numbers, but more ideas than anything).

    The blending idea seemed to be good for someone who did not want time
    to spend looking in Morningstar seeing what funds they should invest
    in, but still get a good return based upon what they chose for
    exposure.  The blend would NEVER give the best return.

    It was mentioned having BOTH would be best.  People who wanted easy
    choices could use the blend, but people who wanted the best return
    and/or control would choose from funds available from a mutual fund
    company (Scutter, Fidility,etc.).

    An interesting point that I heard was that it seemed like too many
    people were in fixed income which gives a VERY low return and they
    should be looking at a little more risk for a better return.  Problem is
    that there is not a fund (five star, low-medium risk, reasonable return)
    currently available as part of SAVE.

    PENSION
    -------

    The Digital pension plan is funded by Digital based upon the number of
    years worked.  The more years, the more money the employee gets a
    retirement.

    The question on how safe is it was brought up.  It was mentioned that
    it is funded according to some law and we are in very good shape and
    have nothing to worry about.

    It was mentioned that there were those who would like to invest their
    pension plan the way they choose.  Digital does not give the money to
    the employees (like many universities do) so they can invest it
    themselves.

    It was asked why Digital does not do matching funds for 401K.  The
    person responded by saying that would mean for an employee to get any
    money from Digital would require them to SAVE, even though may not be
    able to afford to.  By 'giving' it to the employee through a pension
    plan, no action is required by the employee.

    The down side is:
     1) The employee cannot 'grow' the money by investing it themselves...
     2) The employee most likely can get better returns by investing it
        themselves.

    SUMMARY
    -------

    In June/July a summary of the information will be mailed to people
    using EMAIL.  I am not sure if this is just the people in this study
    group or all employees at this time.

    I felt the corporation and the company that was hired are doing the
    right thing for the corporation.  It is a positive step in the right
    direction and shows us that Digital is trying to wisely use its money
    by giving its employees the best choices possible.

    In my opinion, it is about time.  They are finally fixing SAVE by out
    sourcing it...

    	- mark buda

RE: .28

I've been trying to enroll in SAVE for days. I dial dtn 223-6000, punch 3,
then listen to it ring... and ring...

Today I decided to tough it out. After five minutes of ringing it
suddenly went "Busy."

Is there another avenue?

Art

By pressing 2# and then 0# you can speak to an actual, honest to goodness
human.  I did this and was told that the SAVE system crashed yesterday and
it looks as if a hardware problem will keep it down for a few days.  I was
told that if you want to enroll, you can get a form from Personnel and mail
it in, or follow the above procedure to talk to a human who will help you.

					Steve

  They should be back up soon.  My group processed an order for (some of)
 the hardware required yesterday and they picked it up about 4:30PM yesterday
 (Wednesday).




 Jim

    SAVE touch tone is up and running now.
    
    We took a power hit at MSO1 which somehow damaged the hardware.

    Is the SAVE plan a "qualified ERISA" plan?
    
    Bob

    yes - as per thr Benifits Book.
    

    Got my Save Information package in the mail today.  It included a video 
    but no PC software as I had seen mentioned somewhere in here.  I'll sit 
    down with it tonight.  There were prospectus' for the funds included in 
    the package.

    re:-1
    
    The Future$aver s/w will arrive with your annual pension statement
    which will be mailed in early March. This was on the timeline on
    pg.7 of the 2nd Save communication.

    What about us folks that don't own PCs?  I have a Macintosh since I
    wanted a tool, not a puzzle.
    
    				-John

My 'package' showed up yesterday.  I haven't had time to look at it, but the
seal on the end had been broken and there was a note written on it that it
had arrived at the P.O. that way.  I'm not surprised considering how poorly
made the 'box' is.  I wonder how many people will get damaged video tapes or
have missing pieces due to someone's misguided attempt at saving money.

Bob

    Question - are these 'packages' being sent to all U.S. employees, or
    just current SAVE participants?
    
    I've never participated in SAVE, but I'd be interesed in seeing
    additional information on it.
    
    Kevin

    Well I have never participated in "save" and I got the information
    packet.  haven;t had a chance to look into it though.
    
    meg

    what meg said goes for me too. Mine was sealed. I'll check it out
    tonight. My VCR is broken, could someone post the video details.
    
    Bright Blessings,
    
    PJ

    gosh John, I'd guess that you have some free media for your Mac.  My
    poor ol' 286 doesn't have Windows, so I'll be takin my floppy to work.
    
    Mark

>    What about us folks that don't own PCs?  I have a Macintosh since I
>    wanted a tool, not a puzzle.

What about me?  I have a Mac and no VCR!

   ><<< Note 240.57 by TLE::REAGAN "All of this chaos makes perfect sense" >>>

   > What about us folks that don't own PCs?  I have a Macintosh since I
   > wanted a tool, not a puzzle.
      
     A puzzle the Intel boxes may be but I feel comfortable with the Idea
    that I can get spare parts at Sears if it breaks;-)      
       
   > 				-John

    
    Digital doesn't sell or manufactures Macintoshes and I see no reason
    to provide applications on systems we don't make or directly sell.
    
    Now with that said, the crunchie better work on WNTAS 3.5 on Alpha...
    I hope they fixed the DECdirect CDrom to work on NT too;-)
    
    Alpha -- When you care enough to evaluate your investments on 
             the very best;-)
    
    JMHO
    
    John W.
    
    
    
    
    

>    Digital doesn't sell or manufactures Macintoshes and I see no reason
>    to provide applications on systems we don't make or directly sell.
    
    Gee, aren't there a lot of companies doing precisely this and making
    lots of money.  What systems does Microsoft make or directly sell?
    
                                            August

RE: .66

	But we are not a software company.

							mike

    So, did anyone notice the digital logo in the SAVE video is the old
    logo, but in the burgundy color?  oops.
    
    	Steve

    I rec'd my package last night (not sealed and battered), did not
    have a chance to review it, and did not see any evidence of a floppy.
    
    Does anyone have anymore of information on this or who to call for
    missing pieces.
    
    
    Thanks,

re .69:

See .56.

    Re: .69
    
    	Ditto! The packaging of these materials is a problem.

I'm incensed that Digital doesn't also provide the video in Beta format. 
Everyone knows that Beta is technologically superior to VHS.  When I bought
my VCR, I bought Beta because I didn't want videos to appear as if they were
made in a dust storm.

The software should also come in Commodore PET and TRS-80 format... 

(Ok, now how many chains can I yank?  And yes, I *DO* have a Beta VCR.  (And
a VHS, though it's the Beta which gets the most use.))

					Steve

    Re: -1
    
      See .56

    Re: .70
    
      Notes collision..

    oh gosh, am I in the VIDEO conference?  or are the bits beginning to
    merge...
    
    Mark :-)

    I wonder why they did mail it to those of us who do not participate
    (and never have) in the SAVE plan.  Seems like a big waste of time/
    money to me.
    
    My package wasn't too mangled, but I noticed it had been taped in a
    few places.  I just tossed it, I'll check tonight to see if there is
    a floppy included :-)
    
    

>        <<< Note 240.66 by DECC::CXXC::REINIG "This too shall change" >>>
>          -< We don't make the CD player, so we shouldn't make CDs? >-
    
>>    Digital doesn't sell or manufactures Macintoshes and I see no reason
>>    to provide applications on systems we don't make or directly sell.
    
>    Gee, aren't there a lot of companies doing precisely this and making
>    lots of money.  What systems does Microsoft make or directly sell?
 
    Ah but Microsoft is a software company.  Is that one of our core
    competencies this week;-)
       
>                                            August
    
    JMHO
    
    John W.

I haven't received my packet yet...

		Steve

    
    	Just a quick note for those of you who are NOT in the SAVE plan.
    
    	Fifteen years ago when 401 (k) plan first became available, I
    joined right away at a former employer. My brother did not. I have
    remained in at the maximum each year. My brother finally started
    putting away monies five years ago. We make about the same in income
    (funny how that works).
    	Today I have over six figures in retirement funds, growing at
    9-15% a year. He has less than $30,000. At retirement (approximately
    15 years for me, 17 for him) I will have over $700,000; he will have
    about what I have now.
    	This isn't about money, it's about security in your later years.
    It's about freedom after you've stopped working. It's the difference
    between worry and who cares?
    	Our SAVE program, as lame as we complain about it here, is probably
    the best single thing you can do for yourself, your loved ones, and
    your peace of mind when you are much older, and much more in need of
    it.
    	Don't sell yourself short - SAVE.
    
    		the Greyhawk

    They appear to be sending this to everyone. I have never participated 
    or been interested in participating. Yet I have been inundated with
    hard mail at home and e-mail at work about it. I wish they would not 
    waste my time or the Corp's money

    
    I for one have never enrolled in $ave AND DO WANT TO this time around
    so I'm glad I'll be getting (haven't yet) the enrollment package. Maybe
    those that think it's a waste are using other means of investment. Fine
    for you, not for me.
    
    Maybe a more cost effective way of distributing enrollment kits would
    have been to have CURRENT participants on an auto-mail and have NON-
    MEMBERS register to receive the enrollment package. Lord, with all the
    mail blasts we've been getting on this you would have thought it to be
    easy.... Ya right!  8-)
    
    George

    I'm at a bit of a loss as to why anyone would NOT want to invest in
    SAVE or any other 401K plan. Sure, you can you can save or invest your
    money on your own. But, you're investing AFTER TAX dollars, meaning
    that you've already lost 28% or more before you even begin. 
    
    I'm personally delighted to get the tax break. It's basically like
    investing $1000, but only 'spending' $720. I see an immediate return of
    $280. I don't know of anyplace else that I can get a deal like that!
    (Now if Digital would provide some matching funds it would be even
    better!)
    
    Then there's the fact that income into the account isn't taxed. So the
    account grows even faster than if I invested my after tax dollars in a
    taxable stock or fund. Investing outside the 401K means that Uncle Sam
    gets at least 28% of everything I earn with the investments. That
    income is protected inside the 401K, at least until I retire and have
    to start taking distributions. :-(
    
    I'm not too excited about the new selection of funds, but hopefully my
    CFP will be able to help me make the right decision there. I'll be
    letting him do the research on the various options. :-)
    
    Harry
    

I wonder what the "real" reason is behind the big push to get more of us
signed up in the SAVE plan.  Maybe they skimped on the packaging, but other
than that, someone is going to a lot of trouble to produce the video, and
all the materials, and the retirement planning software, and send it to all
of us.  I feel like there is something else behind this other than just the
fact that Digital cares so much about our welfare.  Maybe this is just
Step 1 in the plan to reduce/eliminate pension benefits?  Any other ideas?

Even though I'm skeptical of the motive behind this, I'm going to sign up
with SAVE for the first time anyway.

    I think the simple answer is money.  The fund manager is going to make a
    great deal in management costs - I'm sure they had no problem in
    justifying the material costs.  In fact, they are probably getting off
    cheap.                                   

    People investing in SAVE plans are making two gambles.
    
        1. They won't need the money soon.  If they do, they have
           to pay a 10% penalty to take the money out of SAVE.  It takes
           about 5 years of tax free compounding to make up for the 10%
           penalty.
    
        2. Tax laws in the future won't be complete confiscatory.  If
           you pay your taxes now on money you will be paying at today's
           rate.  If you pay taxes in the future on money you earn in the
           now, the tax rate may be higher.  Then again, it may be lower.
           It takes a LOT of years of tax free investing to offset a
           tax rate differential between, say 28% and 90%.  
    
    People investing in SAVE are also more limited in their investment
    choices.
    
    -----
    
    Personally, the two gambles seem worth it to me and I'm not overly
    concerned about the limited choices of SAVE investments.  
    
                                    August G. Reinig

Which braindead organization do we have to thank for the SAVE
program package which is being mailed to employees' homes,
complete with video cassette and accompanying literature.
I'll be willing to bet the production/design costs, not to
mention manufacturing and distribution, cost well in excess
of $10/head.

For what? The paper is going directly into the stove and
the videocassette will be used to transcribe a rerun of Cheers
before it even gets watched.

Do these people (and I use the term loosely) realize that we're
doing our damndest to make a profit around here while they're
squandering money that could be better spent elsewehere to
tell us about silly programs that we can't afford to "invest"
in anyway?

I haven't had any familiarity with the term "disposable income"
for quite some time. How nice that they've got plenty in their
budget.

<FLAME_STILL_ON_AND_FUMING>

    I'm in 100% agreement. Already threw mine away! Digital should leave
    the investment/mutual fund business to those who know how.

  If you read the timelines in the packet, you'll find that the floppy is 
being sent at the beginning of March.  As far as I can tell, all the material
that was supposed to be included in the Feb 1 mailing arrived intact even 
though the box was open.

  Re. the Macintosh rathole - maybe we don't sell them (it seems to me we 
were/are resellers by mail, but that could have been bogus info); on the 
other hand, we sure do sell Pathworks for Mac.  Those of us in DC who 
support Pathworks usually lay out the money for a Mac and end up LOVING them.
Our customers also love them and use them for "real" work; it's too bad 
software is often developed late for them.  Yeah, I know the realities of
business (huge installed base of PCs v. small installed base of Mac's) but 
Mac's are easy to install and easy to use.  They shouldn't be ignored.

		Susan S.

    Got my package today - box was sealed - seemed well-enough designed 
    with the cardboard insert.
    
    				Steve

    re: .66, .78, .87 and others
>>    Digital doesn't sell or manufactures Macintoshes and I see no reason
>>    to provide applications on systems we don't make or directly sell.
    
    	Just to correct a detail, DEC does manufacture and sell
    Macintoshes. Talk to DEC India. There was an announcement a couple of
    years ago. It seems that doing business in India is so complex that
    Apple decided to licence the whole lot to DEC. I don't know if any DEC
    Macintoshes are exported from India.

    
    	Holysmokes - chill out folks!
    
    	First, Digital did NOT produce the "slick" package. It comes from
    Hewitt Associates, LLC - a division of a company here in the northern
    Chicago suburbs in which I have many friends. Hewitt is the "manager"
    of our SAVE program (look at SAVE as being outsourced) and is paid
    by us to administer the changeover. After that Hewitt makes its money
    (which it must do since it has to staff up the Benefits Express phone
    support and fund switching mechanisms as well as the monthly reporting
    to us all) by getting a small slice of the funds' management (or in
    some cases 12-b) fee based on assets under management which Hewitt
    "brought" to the party.
    
    	In prospectus talk, it's called "incentives to dealers" and is
    based on the dollar volume each quarter under management and "new"
    monies gathered for the fund. Each fund family has its own payment
    schedule and the are all articulated in their prospectus'. It is NOT
    a bid deal for us. It is a cost of doing business for the funds.
    
    	Your individual concern should be your retirement. Not who is
    making these packages up. The fact of the matter is this you only
    get paid once for your labors, and the only one who can insure that
    you keep getting paid in retirement is you. And SAVE is Digital's
    vehicle for that.
    
    	I, for one, cannot believe the mass hysteria at this. Is it a
    Salem thing? Relax, throw the conspiracies out. We still have a
    pension plan, and SAVE - it is YOUR life - Protect It in Retirement.
    
    		the Greyhawk

    
    Rep .93
    
    Well put.
    
    I suspect that some confusion could have been saved (no pun intended)
    if the package included information that it was produced by
    Hewitt and cost Digital nothing.
    
    As for those who don't want to enroll in SAVE...I just hope your
    not counting on Social Security for your retirement plans!!
    
    					Ed
    
    

    
    You are also risking that you won't die before 59.
    
    I believe that you should invest in yourself (Education) and your home 
    long before you save for your retirement.  I once met a person in her
    20s at DEC who was spending 700 Dollars a month on an Apartment, and wanted 
    to max out her retirement.  I believe she would have been better off
    saving for a Home then retirement.
    
    Dan

    I'm glad they sent it to everybody.. I haven't been in SAVE up to now,
    but I'm likely to start this spring. Up to now, getting info on the
    funds, rules, etc etc has been somewhat hit-or-miss, but now it's all
    there in one place. The level of info isn't much different than what
    you'd get from someplace like Fidelity if you let them know you were
    interested in sending them ten grand a year..
    
    I could live without the video, though..
    
    ...tom

    > You are also risking that you won't die before 59.
    
    Ah, but then your heirs will be so pleased with your thoughtfulness and
    foresightedness.
    
                                        August

    
    You are also risking that the rules will not be changed by the time it
    is your turn to start collecting on this benefit.  
    
    Allan

    gee, nobody mentioned the free "calculator".  :-)
    
    mark

    
     re:.98 >>You are also risking that the rules will not be changed by the
            >> time it is your turn to start collecting on this benefit.
    
    
         True, but this is a risk I am willing to take, others might not.
       However, the reverse may also be true. Folks not contributing to
       SAVE today are risking that the rules will not be changed (if and)
       when they decide to start contributing... Just another perspective. ;^)
    
    
       /Charlie

    re .96
    
      I could live without the video, though..
    
    The video is great information to share with your young adult offspring
    who don't even want to think about anything beyond tomorrow's party. 
    They can at least hear it from another source!

    
    	re:-1
    
    	Precisely what I used mine for. Big eye-opener for the 20 and 23
    year olds.
    
    		the Greyhawk

I got mine on Friday.  The "mailing label-type" seals on each end of the box 
had broken.  Some kind soul at the post office had thought to put two fat
rubber bands on the box.

I'm surprised that there was no cover letter.  Or did that slip out between the 
rupture and the repair?

Bruce

    No cover letter - plenty of explanation inside.
    
    			Steve

	Can anyone help Dave out with this?

	thanks,

							mike


From:	US2RMC::"[email protected]" "David A. Cantor"  3-FEB-1995 23:15:05.36
To:	Mike Foley <axel::foley>
CC:	
Subj:	Need an electronic address

Mike,

Can you find out what electronic address I should use to write to the
people that administer DEC's S.A.V.E. program, please?  I need to get
my money out, and I don't have any reference info handy.

Tnx,
Dave C.

p.s. Wings Tuesday 14-Feb?
--
David A. Cantor            +1 203.444.7268 (444-RANT)
453 Bayonet St., #16
New London, CT  06320

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% From: "David A. Cantor" <[email protected]>
% To: Mike Foley <axel::foley>
% Date:          Fri, 3 Feb 1995 20:57:21 EST
% Subject:       Need an electronic address
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 Don't know of their Internet address, but he can call IS's Touchtone line at
 (508)-493-6000. 

    Choose 2# for General Infomation

    and then "O" for Customer Service.

    Or Invester Services 800 number:
    
    	1-800-235-5069.
    
    Also, since this is an open enrollment all employees are eligible and
    should receive information needed to deceide if this is a plan they
    would like to use.  
    
    As far as the video and the many memos we receive...You would probably
    be surprised how many people will say they didn't see anything AFTER
    the Enrollment period is up.   
    
    I've also heard that the video option to all ee's was less costly then
    having teams of individuals go to all our major sites like they did
    during the Life insurance open enrollment a few years back.  This way
    also reaches everyone (save a few mailing  mishaps).
    
    If you are not interested throw it away.  Many people may not have know
    it was even an option to them and this will open their eyes. 
    
    

FWIW (and I realize this sounds like I'm chiming in)...

Whomever -did- put the package together did an awful job of calculating
just how sturdy a box would be required to ship through the USPS.  As
has been mentioned several times in this topic, many of these packages
have arrived in less-than-perfect shape.  Mine could be included in this
list.

The box itself was fairly mangled.  The USPS acknowleged this damage on 
the box and did their best to repair it, but that in itself is of no real
concern to me.  The contents, however, while probably not damaged them-
selves may not be complete (there was no packing slip to cross-reference), 
so I cannot say with 100% certainty that I received a complete package.

I am not terribly worried about this -- I know I can/will get the infor-
mation I need regarding SAVE.  However, I believe it is perfectly valid
to raise the packaging issue as it is obvious (to me, anyway) that mine
was not an isolated instance.

RE: 240.93 by POBOX::CORSON (aka. "the Greyhawk")

Do you know if anyone at Hewitt Associates, LLC is aware of this issue?

-Andy

    
    	re: -1
    
    	No, but I'll pass it along. Probably too late now anyway. And
    remember this is all going through Chicago, which has become somewhat
    infamous for its lack of quality service in both postal and UPS
    circles.
    
    
    		the Greyhawk

    .108:
    
    The comments about damaged packages arriving brings to mind a story
    about some university people who ran themselves a little test of the
    Post Awful (back 20 years or so ago).
    
    They got a bunch of accelerometers, which could be used to measure the
    deacceleration of being dropped on a desk, or floor, or whatever.  From
    the amount of deacceleration they could measure the distance the device
    fell under gravity.  I suppose that a slam-dunk would yield a serious
    misreading, but that shouldn't have been a problem...
    
    ... because the packages were, for the most part, labelled with
    Official Post Awful Fragility codes, which the employees would
    recognize and provide the level of care appropriate to the code.
    
    And the results were (drum roll please):
    
    - Packages labelled [approximately] "Extremely Fragile, Do Not Drop"
    were supposed to not be dropped at all.  I think most registered drops
    of 2 to 4 feet.
    
    - Packages labelled [approximately] "Fragile, Handle with Care" were
    permitted to be dropped up to something like 3 feet.  Most registered
    drops between 4 and 8 feet, if memory serves.
    
    - Oh, and there were some that weren't labelled.  The researchers
    couldn't tell how far some of them were dropped:  several arrived
    *smashed flat*.
    
    
    If bills and checks had moving parts, mail service would be
    considerably changed from what we see now.
    
    Dick

    I need to change the address for my Save Plan statements.  Is there
    a way of "talking" to someone to get this accomplished.  I don't have
    my "pin" number so can't use the phone keys.
    
    Thank you
    f

Just call the number and stay on the line - a rep will pick up eventually.

			Steve

    But if memory serves, even if you're talking to a human you can't do
    anything without the PIN (or maybe that was for Cigna?). Regardless, it
    certainly wouldn't hurt you to pick the option to have your PIN mailed
    to you. You'll probably need it eventually.
    
    	BD�

    press 0 (zero) instead of your pin