Conference turris::womannotes-v3

    Paul -
    
    My immediate (and therefor probably intemperate) reaction is to
    ask what part of the country she lives in.  Then find a woman's
    shelter that she can get to.  Offer to take her and the kids there
    yourself if you can.  That should get her to the resources she needs
    to start putting her life back together.
    
    The other source of immediate help might be a call to a Suicide
    Prevention Hotline, and ask what they would recommend for someone
    in your friend's position.  EAP may be able to give you referrals
    to appropriate community resources as well.
    
    Good luck to all of you - 
    
    Alison

    She lives in the Manchester, NH area.
    
    She won't call a suicide hotline.  She thinks suicide is an option.
    
    I didn't think of a women's shelter.  I'm going to try and locate one
    this afternoon.

    Paul, Allison has hit it. Try to get her to seek professional help. Do
    offer to take her there.  Call community centers, check with EAP, check
    with the local YMCA/YWCA. They often can tell you what programs are
    available in your area. The United Way can be helpful hear. Use other
    agencies that might not handle her types of problems,. They can refer
    you somewhere for help.
    
    Let her know that you care and are willing to help her to get out of
    the situation, but be careful that she doesn't misinterpret your
    statements. That happened to a friend of mine that who wanted to help a
    depressed classmate and after the person became very emotionally
    attached to my friend and he wanted know more than friendship. I never
    did find out how it was resolved.
    
    Lastly, and I know it might not be much help because it is detached,
    but let her know that I care and will pray and think positively for
    her. I'm sure others here will also.
    
    Phil

    I completely agree with Alison.  Get her out of that house while her
    husband is at work or out at night.  Get her to the nearest battered
    women's shelter.  He won't be able to find her because they won't
    release any information to anyone.
    
    You mention that a lawyer says that it's not possible to get him out
    before she gets hit again because she let him back in, that's bullsh*t. 
    She can get him out, it may be tough, but it can be done.  Tell her not
    to worry about him not paying any expenses, doesn't her health and well
    being come first?
    
    She doesn't need insurance to go for counseling.  I'm sure there are
    places listed in the yellow pages that she can turn to that are state
    or locally funded.
    
    I understand that she's not looking for help, but I feel that because
    you are a friend and know her well, you can get around that and talk
    her into going to a shelter.  Explain to her that suicide is not her
    only escape and that there are people out there that will help her and
    that she can give up the fight without having to end her life.
    
    Lori B.

    
    There are always alternatives to consider:
    
    How about telling her she's a co-dependent to an insane dysfunctional
    situation that may indeed have no solution.  Buy a bus ticket good for
    anywhere in the United States and give it to her with $200 and tell her
    that that's another alternative -- i.e., just walk away from all of it
    and start a new life, under a new name, in a new city.  And never look
    back.
    

    Another place you may want to try are the Samaritans of South-Central
    New Hampshire Inc.  Their office is at 2013 Elm Street, Manchester.
    Their 24 hour hotline is 424-8070.  You may want to give them a
    call yourself and seek other alternatives for your friend.
    
    The Samaritans are a non-profit, non-religious organization.  They
    do not ask you your name and will simply talk to you. They are trained
    volunteers and are WONDERFUL! 
    
    Your friend really needs help. I'm very concerned with her
    rationalizing. It is not a good sign.  On the other hand, she is
    VERY fortunate to have such a good friend as yourself, who noticed
    the change in her behavior pattern.
    
    Best of luck and please let us know how all this turns out.
    
    You and your friend have my prayers as well!
    
    

    re .5, seems to me she'd need a lot more than $200. to do that these
    days.  (besides she has 3 kids - might be difficult to walk out on
    them)
    Lorna
    

    RE: base note
    
                   While in High School, I worked for HOTLINE in El Paso
    Texas.  We were trained to talk to and help refer potential suicides.
    *THE* most important thing is *NOT* to try and talk her out of it.
    If she is serious, and I don't think she is...at this point, You cannot
    stop it.  I doubt, if she was serious, you would even know of her
    intentions.  My suggestion is a very tough one.  You are going to have
    to *get* involved.  Take her to a safe place, and talk.....thats right
    *JUST* talk.  Most suicides stem from repressed anger, hurt and pain.
    Most of the "cure" so to speak, is to allow her to "dump" these
    feelings.  Be careful...it can turn into a very dangerous situation
    very quickly.  I would reccomend *above* all that you do NOT allow her
    to drink while you are talking to her.  
    
                The best thing of course is to get her to a pro, but it
    doesn't seem that she will go for it.  I do wish you luck.  If you
    believe in God, try praying, it (if nothing else) will help your
    attitude.
    
    
    Dave

    The Women's Crisis Service at the Manchester, NH YWCA handles battering 
    and rape cases.  They will offer emotional support, help get her into
    a shelter, go to court with her, etc.  They might also be able to help
    her deal with some of the trauma left by her rape. 
    
    There is a branch of the Samaritans in Manchester also.  I believe part
    of their philosophy is that it is not their right to tell a potential
    suicide not to kill themselves.  They will listen to her but they won't
    try to stop her in anyway.
    
    I believe NH allows restraining orders based on a fear of violence as
    well as actual violence.  It would probably be worth it to talk to the
    Crises Service about this.  As far as I know, a lawyer isn't required
    so there wouldn't be any expense.  She may, however, have a more 
    difficult time getting a restraining order if she has already had one
    and then allowed him back in.  (And the lawyer may have said she
    couldn't obtain an order for more than one reason - it might have
    other ramifications than just getting him out of the house and  
    protecting her.)
    
    If the husband has harmed the children in anyway, the State Welfare
    office could/should be notified also.
    
    Even if she is not interested in calling the Crisis Service or the
    Samaritans, you might find them of help to you in helping her.
    
    One of the first things I thought of when I read this was to question 
    what whould happen to the children if she committed suicide.  It seems
    probable that the husband would raise them.  Is this what she wants
    for her children?  
    
    Meredith
    

    re .8
                    In my last (.8) I don't think I stressed enough to not
    try and talk her out of any action that she might feel.  Many times our
    first inclination is to remind her how much she has to live for...ie
    kids, family,home....  All this does is to heap more and more guilt on
    her.  Exactly the wrong thing to do!  We were taught to express in a
    way that maybe if we were in her position we *might* do the same thing.
    Tell her that under these cirmcumstances these feelings are normal....
    and for your information they are. 
    
                    Best of luck...keep us informed on how both you and her
    are doing.
    
    
    Dave

    RE .11
                  The painful thing in all this is that sometimes people
    *are* serious and there is nothing on the face of this earth that will
    stop them.  It hurts, I know very well.
    
    
    
    Dave

  Another resource, a little farther from home (which may be an advantage).
  They run a safe house as well as offering other services.

              Rape and Assault Support Services of Nashua

                 (603) 883-3044  -- 24 Hour Crisis Line


                                   Atlant

    oh my.. how awful....i feel terrible for her...
    
    if she wants to get out of the house with the kids, go to a shelter.
    	they will help her.
    
    if she wants to stay in the house, go to court and get a restraining
    order and she should state to the judge that she is fearful of her
    life (she is!!) ... the police will kindly escort the *^&%^%*& man
    out of the house and this also serves as a restraining order.
    also state to the judge that he needs to pay for x items.
      i am not saying this is foolproof, but it does work and does 
      bide some time, whether a week or a couple days
    
    be her friend (which you obviously are).. get her some type of
    counseling.... 
    
    good luck.. i hope all turns out for the best.. there is a light at
    the end of this long dark tunnel...
    
	toni

    She seems to be feeling pressured by everyone (family, husband, lawyer,
    kids) to go down a particular, narrow, very dangerous path (stay and
    wait to be beaten).  The only way out she's able to see right now is to
    *blast* her way out and end the pain.
    
    I agree with most of what people have said here, particularly the ones
    suggesting she HAS THE OPTION TO WALK AWAY from this situation.  I
    think the lawyer's advice (stay or you lose) DOES NOT APPLY to how
    she's feeling right now, and it's a dangerous rationization to think
    that it does...
    
    She should look at exactly what she will lose by just WALKING AWAY, and
    weigh that against losing her life.  Either way she loses the kids and
    the house...she gains NOTHING by staying, waiting to be hit, and going
    slowly crazy with emotional pain.  
    
    Perhaps what she could do is put things in motion to MENTALLY end this
    particular life situation; begin again somewhere else as a new person
    with a new life.  You could get her excited about something else,
    something new, something AWAY!  She is probably too emotionally
    exhausted to get the energy to do this herself ... you'll have to be
    *very* careful about how you feed energy to her.  Concrete offers of
    support ("I'll help you find an apartment, I'll help you find a job")
    would probably help her see that it *is* possible.
    
    I'm glad you saw and intervened ... you *may* not be able to fix this
    for her, but she's got *more* of a lifeline with you on her side than
    alone.  Good luck.  Keep her talking...
    
    Pam

    Two things.  The first one is *very* manipulative, but the information
    behind it is valid.
    
    She says she believes that suicide is a valid option for herself.
    Ask her if she thinks that it is a valid option for each of her
    children to take.  When she looks bewildered, explain (very gently)
    that she is in an abusive situation, and the situation will not
    go away just because she does.  With her gone, her husband will start
    to abuse one or more of the children.  This is the pattern.
    
    As I said, this is very manipulative, and you may not want to bring
    it up, or at least not in just this way.
    
    The other thing is to try to get a new restraining order.  I think
    this should be possible because of the nature of the term "assault".
    Most people think that it means hitting someone, as in "assault and
    battery".  It doesn't.  "Battery" is the hitting part.  As it says
    in the dictionary, assault is "a violent physical or VERBAL attack"
    or "an unlawful attempt or THREAT to injure another physically".
    (Emphasis mine, of course.)
    
    So, although you didn't say so, I would guess that since his return
    her husband has indeed assaulted her, and that perhaps she can get
    a new restraining order.
    
    Even without one, she should pack up her children and go.
    
    							Ann B.

    From the Manchester (NH) phone book:
    
    Women In Search of Hope
    148 Laurel 
    Manchester
    603/668-8410
    
    Women's Aid Home
    180 Pearl
    Manchester
    Admin office 603/669-6991
    2nd floor	 603/669-9323
    3rd floor	 603/669-9613
    
    Women's Crisis Line for Rape Victims & Battered Women (also in previous
    72 Concord								reply)
    Manchester	
    Hotline:	 603/668-2299
    Office:	 603/625-5785
    
    thanks for caring,
    Marge
    

    Paul,
    
    Suicide might be a solution for your friend, but remind her of the
    children.  
    
    She has three sons.  They will go to her in-laws.  We
    have seen how they raised their son.  They will raise her sons the
    way they raised their's.  They in turn will marry women they'll
    abuse, father children to grow up just to be like them...   and on 
    and on and on.  
    
    Please point out to her that her in-laws are taking her husband's 
    side because they are reluctant to admit he might be at fault.
    
    They, and he, are minipulating her.  If she can get angry by thinking
    of her boys lives being ruined, maybe that will help give her strength.
    
    I'll pray for her.  If it helps at all, she's not alone.  A lot
    of us have been through it and came out stronger.
    

    PLEEEEEASE be careful about how you present her responsibility for 
    her children to her.  If she's seriously contemplating suicide, 
    it's because she doesn't believe she can bear the burdens she has now. 
    Reminding her of one of those burdens, her responsibility for her
    children, COULD serve to push her closer to the edge.  
    
    I'm no trained expert on handling situations such as this, but I'd 
    think encouraging her to think about the JOYS surrounding her children, 
    both past and future, might be more helpful to her at this point in her 
    life.  Remind her of their accomplishments she has to look forward to,
    their daily victories over the challenges of life, their graduations
    and weddings, etc.  If she's not one to worry too much about growing
    old, she might even find joy and anticipation in thinking about the
    grandchildren they will give her.  
    
    Help her to find the promise of happiness in her future so she will 
    find the strength to fight the ugliness in her present.
    
    Positive thoughts of strength and hope to all of you involved in this
    crisis.
    
    Karen
    

    I think that all the previous suggestions are good. You might
    print out the replies and let her read them. It might help
    her believe that people care. However, I think you also have
    to consider having her committed. She sounds serious to me,
    and I would do it if she were my friend. Nothing you say may
    help her at this point. Clinical depression is very hard to
    penetrate without medication, especially when the reality
    of her life tends to corroborate her feelings.
    
    Best of luck, and let us know what happens.
    
    Eileen
    

As someone who has come back from the brink, I'd like to offer a few 
suggestions:

  1.  Do not say the R word _ever_.  Responsibility to/for others is a very
      valid reason to bail out of life when one can't cope.

  2.  Never urge her to count her blessings.  Even if she has many blessings
      to count, they are immaterial.  She may not want to see them, she may not
      be able to see them, they probably do not exist for her.

  3.  Keep her talking.  To you, to counsellors, to anyone with the willingness
      to listen.

  4.  Say nice things to her; but not in a way that would cause her to feel
      beholden or burdened.  ie.  say, 'I'd miss you a lot' but not 'Think 
      about how awful I'd feel if you were gone.'

**5.  [this one may sound weird]  tell her that you support her decision, even
      if that decision would cause you grief.  this acknowledges that it is her
      life and that, while do _not_ agree, you love and accept.  The importance
      of this is the fact that most suicidals that I have known [certainly me]
      have very serious doubts over whose life it is they're really living and
      have a growing feeling of certainty that the only control they will ever
      have over it is in its ending.  Outside acknowledgement of this right to
      one's own life is _very_ crucial when one hits this point.

And, for yourself, _never_ feel that you have failed in your attempt to help
her. It is _her_ life and you have been a good and loving friend.  You are _not_
responsible for her actions.

I wish you both well.

  Ann

    re. 21  
    
    Bravo.  Very well put--esepcially the Count Your Blessings part.
    
    Blessing (even if they are there) do not exists when you are on
    the brink.  Even if acknowledged, it is only in a "So What" way.
    Like Ann said, they are immaterial. 
    
    I also wouldn't suggest pressuring her using the children.  The
    woman is the one who's life is at stake.  Guilt trips are a great
    pushing mechanism to shove one right over the edge.
    
    (I do speak from some experience)
    
    ----kim

    Re: all
               .21 has exactly the "right" idea.  No preasure...just the
    offer of a "kind" ear, may be all she needs.
    
               For all of you, and me also, if you had this kind of
    problem, how would you want to be handled?  I would wager that very few
    in this conference has *never* looked into this option.  Its a *normal*
    reaction to a situation that is NOT normal.  Striding in and blundering
    about with someones feelings is dangerious.  My answer here would be,
    help but dont hinder or be part of the solution and not part of the
    problem.  Stay *off* her case, she has enough of that in her life.
    
    Dave

    
    
    re:  .20
    Would YOU want to be committed? Think about it.
    
    re:  .23
    DITTO
    
    

    RE: 24
    
    Yes, I would want to be committed. That's precisely why I suggested
    it. Commitment does not have to be to a state hospital. It is not grim
    unless you commit someone to a grim place. There are excellent
    psychiatric facilities available now, and if I were ever suicidal,
    that's where I would want to be. It takes medication and/or 
    professional help to treat someone who is suicidal. Having lost
    a brother to suicide, I wish someone had committed him.
    
    Eileen
    

    Update, please!?
    
    
    Where is she?  Is she o.k.?  Did she get the help she needs?
    
    KJM