Conference turris::womannotes-v3

    
    Go placidly among the line noise and baudrates, and remember what
    boredom there was before noting.  As far as possible, do not covet your
    neighbor's faster link.  Answer your vaxmail clearly and without typos,
    even to the weenies that pester you, for they have something to say
    even if you can't figure out what it is.  *****  Avoid female
    impersonators in notes, for they are dangerous to your ego.  If you
    compare yourself with others, you may consider suicide; for there is
    always someone who is a better writer than yourself.  Sign your notes.  
    *****   Keep interested in your own career, however humble; go in to
    work even after staying up all night trying to reduce your unseen
    count.  Exercise caution in your business affairs; because you need the
    job if you want to find out about the parties.  But let this not blind
    you to what enjoyment there is in the usenet; many persons strive to
    have the last word, but few succeed.  *****  Be yourself.  Especially
    do not lie about your sex membership when writing your introduction. 
    Do not post notes written in all caps.  Neither be cynical about the
    power of the mods, for if you keep pushing it they will eventually fry
    your a*s. Therefore be at peace with them even when they rule against
    you.  Read the policy string  *****  Take kindly the counsel of others
    and do not call them pond scum, even when they are.  Nurture strength
    of spirit because even you can lose a 450-line reply when your node
    goes down.  But do not distress yourself with needless worry, for many
    fears are born of fatigue, even if others aren't.  Introduce yourself.  
    *****   You are a child of the universe; you have the right to write
    basenotes when you want to.  And whether or not it is clear to you,
    other people have the right to ignore you.  *****  Be cheerful.  With
    all the aggro, huge number of new notes, and slow lines, it is still
    better than trying to do it all by mail. 
                                             

        After today, I was ready for a grin. Thanks Maggie!
        
        Andy
        

    Thank you Maggie.  An official rathole topic is nice. The mods can
    transfer all the silliness here. We are to serious sometimes in this
    community are we not? We need the silliness and this is a great place
    for it. 

    I don't think that silliness belongs here.  I think it should be
    found throughout this conference.
    
    							Ann B.
    
    P.S.  Is that a good way to hide a smiley face?

re: 34.41, Dorian Kottler
    
>    I didn't say pornography = erotica. 

The difference between pornography and erotica is who is reading it.

>    If I said those who enjoy erotica are perverts, I meant that those who
>    enjoy pornography are. Perhaps perverts is the wrong word. They are
>    victims; they are more than likely addicts. 

Zat right?  *Addicts*?  "More than likely?"  Just where are you getting
this information?  I like a lot of what I am sure you would refer to as
"pornography". I am not addicted.  And I am *not* an exception to the
rule. I believe that based on a lot of people I know who like pornography.

How many people do you know who like porno?  Are they all addicts?  Given
your obviously hostile attitude, do you think the people who do like it 
would *tell you*?

I am interested in your definition of "addict".  My definition includes 
words like "compulsion", "lack of control" and "dysfunctional".  My 
definition does *not* include most of the pornography readers/watchers I
know.

I am not a "victim" - either by the existence of pornography, or by the
fact that I, in particular, like it.

And I may be a pervert (this isn't the first time I have been called one)
but you are also referring to my best friend; all of the boyfriends I have
ever had; my mother; *her* last boyfriend (at least); my father; my brother;
and according to studies I have read, some 80% of the males in the country.
You are stepping on *toes* here, and not all of them are mine!

>    I myself enjoy erotica, but have a devil of a time finding it. 

No, *I* enjoy erotica, *you* enjoy pornography.  That is the difference between
erotica and pornography.

D!

    I read erotica
    You read pornography
    He is a pervert
    She is finally expressing her natural, long supressed sexuality
    
    	-- Charles (that's perVECT to you!)

    Chas, that's bazaar.

>                       -< Re: .5 "Obviously hostile" ? >-

You betcha!  I don't take well to myself, and all of my friends and family
being referred to as "perverts", "victims" or "addicts", thank you very much.

D! (frankly, I wouldn't want to be a perVECT either! Their cuisine is
    lacking.)

    RE 149.27 by Lorna > the photographer (who took the great picture
    of Julia Roberts) was a woman
    
    Question - is it easier to see beauty in members of the same sex?
    Or the opposite ?
    
    (rathole on this rathole - I'm talking about *beauty* as opposed to,
    or more than, strictly physical attraction, another distinction
    that needs exploration)

What does perVECT mean?  I haven't heard of this before.

Re: .9

Diane, I didn't know you had taken offense. I read the note to which
you had referred for tone and what I saw was an opinion (however offensive
one took it) and little or no hostility.  I am guilty of reading only the
note to which you referred and did not read them all to perceive a tone
that you may have received from the author.

Mark

    I know what a Pervect is. I don't think that people who don't know
    really want to. You might become ill at the thought of their eating
    habits. Basically a Pervect is from the dimension of Perv. This is as
    opposed to someone from the dimension of Klahd. The Klahds look
    suspiciously like Humans and the Pervects look like demons. In fact a
    demon is just someone who travels between dimensions. Don't ask about
    Deveels. 
    
    In reality these are all creations of the marvelously "ill" mind (:-))
    of Robert Aspirin in his series of books Known as the MYTH series. The
    are hilariously funny and I recommend them to anyone who enjoys fantasy
    and comedy. Among the titles are Another Fine Myth, Mything persons,
    Mythnomers and imPERVections. There are at least 7 books in the series,
    each one sillier than the one before it.
    
    Phil

    Almost but not quite.
    
    Klahds are from Klah. Deveels? Deveels are just natives of Deva and the
    multiverses' sharpest traders. They run the bazaar that Maggie alluded to.
    Perv(ert/ect)s are short, green, muscular, toothy, and as mentioned
    have disgusting taste in food (unlike *me*). So disgusting that their
    restaurants at the bazaar are required by law to keep moving...
    
    That's Robert Asprin, not Aspirin. One GIVES you a headache, the other...
    The books in the Myth Adventures series include: Another Fine Myth
    (first and still the best), Myth Conceptions, Myth Directions, Hit or
    Myth, Myth-ing Persons (another great one), Little Myth Marker,
    M.Y.T.H. Inc. Link and maybe others. Found in fine fantasy sections
    everywhere.
    
    Go read them! They're great! Buy the Starblaze editions with the Phil
    Foglio illustrations!
    
    	"Next month we talk about sex in D&D!"
    
    	-- Charles

    so sad, no one ever noticed where my personal names come from, ;-(
    In mail, its "mything person in your mythst. 
    I too, in case you haven't figured it out, am a fan...
    :-}
    
    vivian
    another fine myth I've gotten myself into
    

    *I* noticed, Vivian!

    Asprin's Myth series is probably the only time I have laughed *out
    loud* at puns.  They are marvelous.
    
    Alison

    I guess you never read _The_Flying_Sorcerers_ by Larry Niven and
    David Gerrold.
    
    							Ann B.

    I have laughed out loud at Spider Robinson's Callahan series. The puns
    there are great. In fact there are whole evenings devoted to puns and
    the more painful the better.
    
    Phil

Um, needless to say at this point, but don't bother with the Asprin MYTH series
if you dislike puns; what's been mentioned so far is just the start of them! :-)

And now for another tanget: someone mentioned eiswein... you mean it's available
somewhere over here in the states?!?
		Helen

>What does perVECT mean?  I haven't heard of this before.

Sorry, private joke sort of.  A Pervect is an inhabitant of the planet
Perv.  Pervects get very upset if you mistakenly call them Perverts.  And
you do *not* want to upset a Pervect.  (From the Myth series, by Robert
Aspirin.)

>Diane

(Diana)

>I didn't know you had taken offense. I read the note to which
>you had referred for tone and what I saw was an opinion (however offensive
>one took it) and little or no hostility.  

You mean Dorian's note?  No, I didn't sense any hostility (except perhaps
toward producers of pornography) in her note.  Absence of hostility does
not mean that I don't find her words (ie: "addict", "pervert" and "victim")
offensive.  As I said, my note was *angry* (and still is) not *hostile*.

>I am guilty of reading only the
>note to which you referred and did not read them all to perceive a tone
>that you may have received from the author.

I don't know what you mean by "all".  That was the only note written on
that topic in that string, and that was the note I was responding to, and
none other.  ?????

D!

Re: .20  Diana (sorry for getting your name wrong)

"All" meant 34.*; I didn't read all of these to see if there was a running
dialog.  I only read the one you indicated.  So, that was my rathole, but
then this is the rathole topic!  :-)

Mark

    Yes Helen one can get Eiswein...I am lagering 2 half-bottles of
    Wehlener Sonnenuhr '83

    re .20 -
    
    About victims and addicts there appears to be no room for dicsussion
    (except that I didn't say all people who enjoy porn were addicts).
    
    About perverts, I didn't say people who enjoy porn were the pervets. I
    said the way sex is shown in porn is perverted. I realize not everyone,
    in fact probably hardly anyone 8-) , agrees with me. But to me porn
    seems like the antithesis of sex. Does "perverted" cover that? Maybe
    so, maybe not.
    
    I'm sorry if I offended you. Clash of pornts of view I guess,
    
    Dorian 
    

re: Justine's comment elsewhere:

4's are available again for performance reviews.
	Mez

    Re: 160.28 by Mark TOKNOW::METCALFE
    
    > it might be an interesting rathole to define the committed non-monogamous
    > person.
    
    Yes? What would you like to know. Personally, I'm an expert.
    
    > I'll have to think it over....
    
    You do that. Are you cute? :-)
    
    	-- Charles
    
    P.S. True confession - I would never had said that last part to a
    woman. I'd be worried that I would seem sexist. But the fact that I would
    say it to a man and NOT a woman is sexist too! What's a sensitive '90's
    type guy to do? I could either give up making suggestive remarks
    entirely (who me? I'd die first.) or I could go back to making them to
    both men AND women. But then how would women know that I wasn't just
    another hulking neanderthal with my brains in my gonads? Ah, life is so
    complicated. (Hmm... maybe my brains ARE in my... naw.)

    ...and sillies at 3 a.m. at that! :^)
    
    grins,
    Marge

    re.25
    
    good grief, Charles ... give it up.  There's no way a sensitive '90s
    sort can win the 'are you cute?' scenario.
    
    you ask a woman, you're 'sexist'... you ask a man you're 'reinforcing
    the stereotype' that men are overly preoccupied with looks ...
    
    and you're absolutely right, a life without innuendo would be no life
    at all [besides you'd probably role-play a 'hulking neanderthal' with
    gusto and style ...]
    
      Annie

Re: .25

Yes, I am cute - but committed. ;-)  It was flattering that you asked.

And I don't shave my legs or upper lip among other things.  :-) 

Mark TOKNOW::METCALFE

>Yes, I am cute - but committed. ;-)

Yes, but is that an *open* commitment or a *closed* commitment.  ;-) ;-)

D! who thinks this could get outta hand oh well it's hump day

    Mike,   I _THINK_ D! means that it's Wednesday.
    (D!, if I read that wrong, wanna have lunch??  ;^)
    
    Mark, darn -- fuzzy in all the right places and committed/monogamous!
    There ain't no justice.
    
    Charles, everyone should be free to be silly.
    I love risque repartee.
    
    Margaret who's feelin' wicked  ;^)
    
    

.29 et al

cute - closed - committed - cut - clarity -- a regular diamond!

Well... things being relative: Joy thinks I'm cute, would have me committed
and cut if I weren't closed; clear?  and does fuzzy include being fuzzy on
details?  ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) 

Mark

Re: 22.201

You mean Republicans are not the "Saviors of Western Civilization?"
Shatter my delusions of grandeur!  ;-)

In the public speaking forum at the elementary school, several characters were
portrayed.  The Mayor of Nashua, a Democrat, and the president of Aldermen (?)
were the judges.

My daughter protrayed Susan B. Anthony.  There were two
speeches about Eleanor Roosevelt, and one each about Alex G. Bell, the
Wright Brothers, Jetta (somebody) who runs a soup kitchen in Nashua,
and Barbara Bush.

When the BB portrayal came on, I leaned over to my wife and said, this girl
has no chance; the Mayor's a Democrat.  :-)  tee-hee

She didn't place but I do *not* think politics had anything to do with it.

*** This whole note is done in humor - not to be taken seriously, folks.

    RE -.1 My favorite T-shirt in the Northern Sun catalog.

    Lobotomies for Republicans - It's the law! :*) liesl

    Seen on a button:
    
    "Intelligence is the best aphrodisiac"
    
    
    
    -Jody

.34  I liked it in a stinging sort of way.

.35  I liked it. period.

    Seen on a T-shirt at DECUS in New Orleans:

	"Friends don't let friends buy IBM"

Heard while camping from DECcies:

"Friends don't let friends wear dayglo."

or

"Just say no to dayglo"

	Mez

171.3>>  the Future Homemaker's (I know, it's a sexist sounding name.) 



  When I was in high school (15 years ago), FHA was the most active club
in school.  It was at least 50% male -- and we elected the captain of the 
football team as secretary.

   The only projects I remember are planting 700 trees on the riverbank and 
pouring a cement sidewalk  --  apparently our interpretation of home-making
included home-building.

   Future Homemaker's sounds corny to me now -- I didn't think about it at the
time.  I don't think it was exactly sexist and maybe not outdated -- families
of the 90's need homes too!


Barbi

    
    re: -.1
    
    hmmm...future homemakers including boys??? I can't imagine!!
    in my high school it was all girls...the boys were in future
    farmers of America.  And neither group was terribly active.
    
    course this was years ago...early 70';s...in the south...in a
    school where I couldn't take shop---that was for the guys...
    home ec was for the gals.  hmmm...what else.  Oh yes, I couldn't
    run for class president, had to be a boy, but I could run for
    class secretary.  oh well, times have changed some at least!!
    
    deb
    

    Last few. I guess it's all a matter of when and where you went to high
    school. I went to Alvirne High School in Hudson, N.H. and a boy would
    never dare join FHA. Not if he wanted to stay healthy. This was
    1966-70. I suppose it's my own conditioning and attitudes(I'm trying to
    shed them) coming through. My daughter says that their are no boys in
    the group. they boys do take Home-Ec though. I think they get the
    cooking-sewing stuff. When I went to school we weren't allowed to take
    it. Girls were beginnig to infiltrate shop and vocational-agriculture
    so that was a plus. You have to understand that at this school, if you
    wore bluejeans you were considered a "rowdy" person. It was explained
    to me that the jeans caused a change in one's personal attitude that
    led toward "rowdiness" and general delinquent behavior. Go figure.
    
    Phil

    To continue building a history of sexual characteristics of FHA in
    America's Heartlands, in a small rural town in Missouri in 1976-1977,
    there were two male members of FHA (I'm afraid that their sexual
    orientation was taken into account) and, as far as I remember, no
    female member of FFA. 
    
    I believe one or two girls took shop (with no reflections made on their
    sexual orientation (: >,).  No boys took home ec, but that year they
    began a very successful course called "Bachelor Living" which was
    basically home ec for boys.  I remember us getting a lot of mileage out
    of there being instruction on basic child care (e.g., feeding, changing
    diapers) in a class called "BACHELOR Living".
    
    Ray

    Michelle Shocked has a wonderful sense of humor.  Her latest CD,
    "Captain Swing", is coated in a bright, "shock"ing pink, and includes
    songs with titles like "God is a Real Estate Developer", "Must Be
    Luff", and "Looks Like Mona Lisa (Smells Like Tuna Fish)".  "Looks Like
    Mona Lisa" also has wonderfully cheeky lyrics, and is my favorite song
    on the CD.  I highly recommend the album.

    -- Mike

    I would like to nominate note 58.44, by Mike Valenza, to the Womannotes
    Hall of Fame.
    
    -- Mike

    Are you Designated Silly Person for the day??  
    
    Carry on!  :-)
    

    And good day, this is Robin Screech for 
    "Lifestyles of the Poor and Righteous"
    
    Today we visit budding pauper Pauline Jones, and follow her as she
    drags herself out of bed, recycles coffee grounds she cleverly saved
    from the day before, and relaxes luxuriantly on the water-stained couch
    in her beautiful burlap bathrobe!  But there's no time to rest she's
    got *exciting* things to do today!  She's got to
    ...
    Walk the dog! 
    
    Yes Fido needs a run around and she's always willing to please!  After
    a lovely waltz about the neighborhood with her trusty mutt, she's then
    ready to
    ...
    Go to work!
    
    And a whirlwind day of backbreaking labor it is - all gussied up in her
    beautiful bright-green cotton dress from the Salvation Army, picked out
    specifically by her mother, she merilly moves about the workplace
    taking care of business in a way nobody else can, and when she's done
    she turns around and it's time to
    ...
    Clean the house!
    
    
    (etcetera)
    

    re: .46 (Jody)
    
    Dunno if you've seen it, but there's a TV spot for the homeless 
    in which Robin (or an imitator who's got his sound down perfectly) 
    does a "Lifestyles" description for a homeless man.  The openning
    shot is of a homeless man waking up on the streets of New York
    and Leach is saying something to the effect of, "Here's Ralph
    Jones who wakes up every morning to a spectacular view of Manhattan."
    And so on.
    
    Steve

    The string about the June issue of Esquire has begun to discuss the
    feminization of poverty and how:

    *  Single mothers make less than single men who have no dependents
    *  Single men have more disposable income
    *  Single men then use this surplus to invest thereby creating more
       income for themselves.

    I'm reminded of a book called something like "Men and Marriage" by
    conservative kvetch George Gilder.  Published about 1987, I think.

    Gilder's thesis is precisely that society is skewed to create a
    class of men (primarily young men in the age group that in former times
    were young fathers) with surplus income.  This class is not only well
    off but also useful in that they buy a large share of expensive
    consumer goods, generally live alone (thus buying many redundant
    goods they would not need if in a family or group), and available to
    move geographically as labor trends change.

    Gilder says that it is NOT the women's movement that created this class
    but rather economics.  He says that America is all but incapable of
    recovering its ideal of family as long as economics favors this class.
    He suggests quite a few controls.  Gilder is a staunch if very old
    fashioned family man.

    IMO, I see women slowly and in small numbers entering this class as we
    achieve the education necessary to hold the economically privileged
    jobs.  This may make us more economically stable single Moms but the
    disparity still exists.    

re: 13.108

�  I wonder - can brown nosing improve one's social life?

Stop wondering.

Intelligent, interesting, witty women are not so easily manipulated.

/bruce
    

    Oh.. well... But hey, ya gave it your best anyhow right???
    
    

This entry posted here at moderator suggestion.


   Referencing 22.269:

   Does this mean that your personal attacks on me will cease (or at least be 
reduced drastically)???

   If so, then thank you very much! That is, to be frank, all I've wanted 
from you.

   Again, thank you! Now I, too, shall walk on a few eggs whenever I note 
here (to try to ensure that I do not unintentionally attack you).

   My conflict with you ends.

                                            -Robert Brown III

    	RE: .51  Robert

    	> Does this mean that your personal attacks on me will cease (or at 
    	> least be reduced drastically)???

    	No, it means that the next time I see you attacking women and/or
    	making belittling or condescending remarks to or about women in
    	this conference, I will contact my lawyer before responding to you.

    	> If so, then thank you very much! That is, to be frank, all I've 
    	> wanted from you.

    	I will contact my lawyer before commenting on this.

    	> Again, thank you! Now I, too, shall walk on a few eggs whenever I 
    	> note here (to try to ensure that I do not unintentionally attack you).

    	Try listening when people explain to you that you are being insulting
    	again, even if you don't want to believe you're capable of such a thing.

    	> My conflict with you ends.

    	Thank you.  My child will be glad to hear that I'll be able to keep
    	a roof over his head and food in his mouth after all.

    	I'll keep the retainer on the lawyer, though.  Just in case.

Referencing: 58.52 (Suzanne)

   Excellent! While I find it difficult to believe that any action I would 
take can get anyone fired (and I wouldn't take any if I discovered that it 
could), I am confident that your policy will, by its very nature, 
drastically reduce the number of personal attacks that you make on me for a 
variety of reasons.

   Thank you for your suggestions, though they already describe my current 
policies. I am already aware that I can be insulting, though I endeaver to 
avoid being so unless I am insulted first. Hopefully, if others feel 
personally attacked by me in the future, they will let me know (though 
hopefully NOT through personal attacks).

   You have my best wishes.

                                                        Peace
                                                       -Robert Brown III

    	
    	RE: .53  Robert
    
    	Well, I will certainly look forward to reading notes from you that
    	contain fewer attacks and belittling/condescending remarks about
    	women, if this is your intent.
    
    	It was never pleasant for me to deal with these sorts of assaults
    	against women and the file, even though we see so much of this sort
    	of thing here.  
    
    	Take care.
    

    	RE: .55  Mike Z.

    	> You never made it to the point where she tells you that you're
    	> assaulting and/or raping the conference with your replies.

    	As you well know, I didn't name anyone specifically when I described
    	the conference as being raped some months back.  (You know this,
    	because I've already corrected you on this point, once before.)

    	However, if you felt the shoe fit, then I suppose there's no getting
    	it off your foot, is there?  ;^)

    	
    	Why is it that someone would suggest taking a dispute to mail when 
    	an opposing noter has already admitted to having forwarded all the
    	*previous* mail exchanges to "authorities" within Digital?
    
    	A person would have to be INSANE to be willing to discuss anything
    	in mail with someone who would make such an announcement public at
    	one's place of employment (no matter how many times someone else
    	*sighs* for being inconvenienced by keeping it public.)
    
    	Of all people, I would expect an attorney-hopeful to understand.
    
    

    Feeling guilty are we???
    
    I heard no mention of you SPACIFICALLY Suzanne.....
    
    Hmmmmmmm, was it you that spoke of a shoe or some such????
    

    
    	Stuff it in a sock, Al.
    
    	I never claimed it was about me, either!  
    
    	I merely said "someone" would have to be INSANE to take such a 
    	dispute to mail - I never said a word about myself.
    
    	Did I??????  
    
    	NO, I did not!
    

    Socks full, thank you......

    
    
    re 126.81 (and some others before, I think).
    
    There have been some passing references to Gerry Studds' involvement
    with  a congressional page.  Some replies have suggested that the
    page was 15 or younger.  The page was, in fact, 17 -- which is, I
    believe, old enough to give "consent" for sexual relations.  I don't
    think Studds actually broke any laws (unless he gave the young man 
    alcohol).  There are certainly ethical issues to consider in this, and
    it was for ethical reasons that Studds was censured by the house.
    Another congressman was censured in the same "scandal" for his
    involvement with a 17-yr old female page.
    
    I have my own concerns about a powerful, adult being sexually involved
    with 17 year old man or woman, but I wanted to address the implications
    of child molestation that I thought were being unfairly tossed at
    Studds.
    
    Justine
    

    I can't think of any other place to put this.
    
    			Massage Therapy
    
    1. Massage therapy and massage parlors.
    
    	*Why* the Sex Business had to take the perfectly good name of 
    	"massage", I dunno. [Well, I *do* - unfortunately, our society
        seems to have trouble handling sex, if you call it "sex".] Anyway,
    	the damage is done.
    
    	If you are looking for Therapeutic Massage - non-sexual massage-
    	you can do the following: 1. Look in the yellow pages under AMTA
    	(American Massage Therapy Association). IF your town is large
    	enough, there will be a listing of therapists under that heading.
    	2. Be sure the therapist is licensed (if the town/state has
    	licensing (Mass. doesn't; some towns do. N.H. does)). 3. Ask what
    	type of massage they do (Swedish, Shiatsu, Polarity, deep-muscle
    	are some words to look for) 4. Come right out and say you aren't
    	looking for a sexual massage.
    
    
    Massage Therapy as Luxury
    
    	Massage therapy is not only a great stress-reliever. It moves
    	toxins out of the cells, and nourisment *to* the cells. It 
    	greatly speeds recovery from muscle injury, sprains, and broken
    	bones. Increased blood flow to the areas moves out toxins and
    	"old" blood from bruising, and brings in fresh blood and all the
    	nutrients in it [the blood stream is how nutrients get through the
    	body]. Massage keeps surrounding muscles in good tone as sprains
    	or breaks heal, and shortens the recovery period.
    
    	Research has shown that massage increases the number of T-cells
    	[the immune system cells] - this is why massage is so good for
    	AIDS patients and others with auto-immune diseases (arthritis,
    	lupus, etc.)
    
    	Massage also helps prevent stress reactions, by helping the
    	individual learn what a non-stressed  state feels like. More
    	and more, what is "normal" becomes the UN-stressed state, not
    	the stressed state. Most disease (dis-ease) that we experience
    	is stress-related. It is by no means a luxury to reduce our
    	levels of stress and resulting disease. The consistent movement of
    	toxins from our cells combined with the reduction of stress and
    	the effects of stress reactions are real health benefits. 
    
    	Research in the field backs this up every day. If you don't think
    	going to a chiropractor, acupuncturist, or nutritionist is a
    	luxury, please don't look on massage therapy as a luxury. Taking
    	good care of yourself is NOT a luxury.
    
    

>    	Research in the field backs this up every day. If you don't think
>    	going to a chiropractor, acupuncturist, or nutritionist is a
>    	luxury, please don't look on massage therapy as a luxury. Taking
>    	good care of yourself is NOT a luxury.
    
Ah, but going to a chiropracter *hurts*, and going to a nutritionist is
sure to make your life miserable (I know!) - massage feels *good*, and isn't
it a known truth that if it feels good, it must be illegal or bad for you? :-)

Anyway, we should get John Hancok to cover massage!!  yeah!

D!

    D, may I differ with you regarding the nutrtionist? I've been seeing one for
    7 weeks now and have enjoyed it immensly. I've lost 20lbs. in 5 weeks and 
    feel great. Only 60 more to go. I've been jokingly telling everyone that 
    it is the thing for the 90's, to have your own personal nutritionist.
    
    I can't say the same for massages as I've never had one and don't know if
    I would want to. Just my personal preference. Now a back rub by a lover 
    as long as I could reciprocate would be different. :-)
    
    Phil

    RE: .63
    
    Uhm....going to *my* chiropractor doesn't hurt. Maybe you need a new
    chiro...
    
    John Hancock would probably cover massage therapy if it were prescribed
    by a chirpractor or M.D. - you'd need the scrip from them, and a
    receipt from the massage therapist. It would also probably be a good 
    idea to ask the therapist to document the visit in case the ins. co.
    wants more detail. At this point, it would probably only be prescribed
    in case of limb or back injury. With luck, in the future, preventive
    modalities like massage will be better recognized by ins. co.'s.
    
    --DE
     

    re: massage
    
    the way to my heart is through my back....
    
    -Jody
    

    
    	John Hancock pays for my message therapy.
    	I go to Merrimack Valley Integral Health Center
    	run by Robert Berube, DCS, DC.  I saw him once
    	and since then have regular appointments with
    	my message therapist.

    Sometime, a couple months ago, I decided that next time I feel like
    treating myself I'm gonna call Dawn and get a massage. I still haven't
    found an excuse to do it. Life has been fairly easy. Haven't had a 
    chance to say - "You poor thing, you need a treat. Be good to yourself"
    or something on those lines. Neither have I done anything wonderful,
    so I can pat my own back. And I do need an excuse to spend that money.
    Not necessarily a reason, an excuse will suffice.
    
    Maybe the next time I feel homesick...
    Manisha

    
    	Well, Nancy, I tell you what.  If someone ever threatens
    	you publicly by telling you that they've already contacted
    	Digital authorities about you, I hope people are a lot more 
    	patient with you (while you keep the threat public for your 
    	own protection) than others have shown yesterday and today.
    
    	Meanwhile, I quit!  It isn't worth it to belong to this community
    	if people are going to take cheap shots at someone who is clearly
    	trying to protect her livelihood.
    

    
    re:.112
    i, personally, would miss you terribly suzanne and believe your
    notes have been prefectly reasonable.
    

    
    
    .112 by Conlon> Meanwhile I quit
    
    I hope this is a promise!...
    
    

    
    shame
    

    I liked =maggie's comment to Herb in the G/L/B Pride note that I
    borrowed it for my Notes p_n.  I hope you don't mind =maggie...
    
    					--D

    RE: .119
    
    Oooooh....now *that's* something to get p*ssed off about! ;-) [sorry]
    
    And while I have your attention: if you meant you're considering
    leaving the file: please don't. I don't always agree with your noting
    style, but a) I don't have to and b) this is WOMANnotes. [not that it's
    always easy to tell.] That makes it *your* space. Women leaving
    Womannotes is not an/the answer. [although it's understandable from
    the stress-level point of view]. 
    
    Take care of that infection...
    
    --DE
    

    
    	RE: .120  Dawn
    
    	>Oooooh....now *that's* something to get p*ssed off about! ;-) [sorry]
    
    	Yes, literally and figuratively...  :)
    
    	Thanks - just promise to save a massage for me the next time I'm
    	out east, ok?  
    
    	Looking forward to it!
    
    						    Suzanne

Referencing: 13.111

   Good idea!

                                                          -Robert Brown III

Referencing: 13.117

   Agreed!

   But when people "jab" at me, I deal with them in stages:

   Stage 1: I try to ignore the "jab", and continue to address them 
            reasonably. If that doesn't work, I go to

   Stage 2: I address the "jabbing", and ask that it be stopped. If it 
            continues, I go to 

   Stage 3: I get mean and nasty until it stops or someone gets hurt,
            whichever comes first.

   I don't like to see people hurt each other either. I like hurting others
even less. But if someone continually tries to hurt me for hir own reasons,
then I have to deal with that person.

   What I truly regret is when innocent observers get caught in the crossfire.
For this I express my deepest apologies, and promise that it won't happen
again. The next time I find myself in a similar conflict (assuming it ever
happens again) my reaction will be much more surgical.

                                                          -Robert Brown III


 

    Re: .78
    
    > Re: .116
    
    Mike, if you insist on changing strings, please put in the original 
    basenote number so I can follow this intriguing discussion. :-)
    
      Alan

    Moved from another note... an unforgettable joke.
    
    
    Q: What's the difference between a Brown-nose and a Sh*t-head?



    A: Depth perception.

   Policy changes described in 58.51 are specific to the person who I
was in conflict with.

   They have nothing to do with anyone else in this file. My general
policies will not change, since I will not allow anyone to dictate
to me what I can or cannot say in this file.

   Just wanted to make this clear.

                                                    -Robert Brown III

�Note 202.7                Censorship in Movies and TV                    7 of 8
�PROXY::SCHMIDT "Thinking globally, acting locally!"  10 lines 14-JUN-1990 12:46
�                      -< Enquiring minds want to know... >-
    
� > ...the first time my mother heard the song "louie louie" and she
� > got so mad she broke the record.
�    
�  What *WERE* the lyrics?  I've never heard two people agree!
    
    The lyrics on the original "Louie Louie" (by Richard Berry, I think)
    were a perfectly clear ripoff of "Havana Moon" by Chuck Berry (no
    relation) - they're about an island man longing for a woman who's
    sailed off. 
    
    The gradual change from a pop song with a light beat to the clunk
    grunge we all know and love (and play as the first song our bands learn
    (: >,) can be followed most easily in Rhino Record's "The Best of
    Louie, Louie, Vol. 1".  Basically, we should give credit to the
    ineptitude and poor articulation of the Kingsmen.  Long may they wave!
    
    As mentioned in JOYOFLEX somewhere, my own favorite version is the one
    done by Iggy and the Stooges on "Metallic K.O.", in which Iggy makes up
    TRULY offensive filthy lyrics which sound almost exactly like the
    innocuous mumblings of the Kingsmen.  Such ingenuity...
    
    Ray

    re: 189.53 (Charles)
    
    	� My two favorite painters are Renoir and Rubens. �
    
    Well, I like them too, but not because I think their female subjects
    are beautiful.
    
    --- jerry

    re .84, me too.  Renoir is my favorite painter *except* for his
    chubby naked women.  I like the faces on the clothed women in his
    paintings a lot, plus the lighting and the scenery.
    
    Lorna
    

    A while back, somebody (Mez, maybe?) was searching for the word
    combinations that represent foreground and background, in artsy
    dialect ;-).  While I watched some friends playing Go at lunch
    today, the words "figure" and "ground" came to me, looking at
    the patterns of black stones and then switching my attention to
    the patterns of white stones.
    
    Are those the words you were looking for?
    
    DougO

Yes. In fact, they were supplied off-line to me by Maggie (she's so humble).
Thanx Doug.
	Mez

    Sorta.  The Gestalt movement (not to be confused with Fritz Perls's
    Gestalt Therapy movement) dealt with the way we "go beyond the
    information given" to organise things in our heads.  For example, 
    something such as
                          .
                           .
                            .
                             .
    
    
    is typically perceived by us as a line, although if we analyse it, all
    we are really seeing is four dots in a regular relationship to each
    other.  It takes the name Gestalt because the major figures associated
    with its development were german, and because there is no good word in
    english to mean "something which is greater than the sum of its parts".
    
    The concept of figure/ground relationships is due to Levine, however.
    
        					=maggie

    Re 157.142, "mouseburgers" ?  What in the world are "mouseburgers"?
    
    aq
    

exact definitions vary, but the standard 'mouseburger' is generally an
ordinary woman with ordinary looks -- in a word, beautiful. HOWEVER,  the 
implication is that she must view herself as completely gag-ous because her 
looks are not consistent with the current Female Media Icon.

copious quantities of filthy lucre can be gained by promising her the tools and
techniques for conversion.  and the beauty is that the Icon evolves so she, the
mouseburger, is always aiming at a moving target.

  Ann

			Mysterious Macho Males at midlife

				  From
			The Dallas Morning News
				May 20, 1990
				   By
			       Dave Barry

	The past 20 years have seen tremendous advances in our 
understanding of these mysterious creatures called men - what motivates 
them; what kinds of complex and subtle emotions they're really 
experiencing underneath their brusque "macho" exteriors; and why they are 
all basically slime-sucking toads.  Most of this understanding has 
been supplied by popular psychologist who despite the very real risk 
that they will appear on Oprah Winfrey - are churning out insightful, 
groundbreaking books with titles like:

	- "Men Who Hate Women"
	- "Men Who Claim Not To Hate Women But Trust Me They Are 
	   Lying"
	- "Men Who, OK, Maybe They Don't Hate ALL Women, But They 
	   Definitely Cannot Stand YOU"
	
	And so on.  Reading between the lines, we can see men do not 
have a terrific reputation for being dependable, lifelong partners in 
a relationship.  In this chapter, we will put on our pith helmets and 
begin to explore a major reason for this:the midlife crisis.  This is a 
phase all men are required, by federal law, to go through, as part of 
the official Popular-Psychology Schedule of:

				Male Lifestyle
			       Age-Phase Interest


		0 - 2   	Infancy      - 	Pooping
		3 - 9   	Innocence    - 	Guns
		10 - 13 	Awareness    - 	Sex
		14 - 20 	Emancipation -  Sex
		21 - 29		Empowerment  -	Sex
		30 - 39		Attainment   -	Sex
		40 - 65		*MIDLIFE CRISIS OCCUR HERE*
		66 - Death 	Contemplation- Pooping


		What Is A Male Midlife Crisis?

	Basically, it's when a man, reaching his middle years, takes 
stock of his life and decides that *it isn't enough* - that although 
he has a loving wife, nice kids, a decent job and caring friends, he 
feels trapped - that there is still *something more he must do*, 
something that we will call for want of a better term "Making a fool of 
himself."
	There is no end to humiliating activities a man will engage in 
while in the throes of a midlife crisis.  He will destroy a successful 
practice as a certified public accountant to pursue a career in Roller 
Derby.  He will start wearing enormous pleated pants and designer 
fragrances ("Ralph Lauren's Musque de Stud Hombre: For the Man Who 
Want a Woman Who Wants a Man Who Smells Vaguely Like a Horse").
	He will encase his pale, porky body in tank tops and a "pouch" 
style swimsuit the size of a gum wrapper.  He will abandon his 
attractive and intelligent wife to live with a 19-year old aerobics 
instructor who once spent an *entire summer* reading a single 
"Glamour" magazine article titled "Ten Tips for Terrific Toenails".


		What triggers The Midlife Crisis

	Generally the midlife crisis is triggered when a male realizes 
one day at about 2:30 p.m. that he has apparently, for some reason, 
devoted his entire life to doing something he hates.  Let's say he's a 
lawyer.  He did not just become a lawyer overnight.  He worked hard to 
become a lawyer.  He made enormous sacrifices, such as drinking 
domestic beer, so he could afford to go to law school.  He studied, 
sweated out the law boards, groveled to get into a firm, licked a lot 
of shoes to make partner, and now has made it.
	And then one afternoon, while writing yet another letter 
filled with prefabricated phrases such as "please be advised" and 
"with reference to the aforementioned subject matter," he rereads what 
he has written, and it says: "please be advised to stick the 
aforementioned subject matter where it hurts."  And so he starts to 
think.
	And the more he thinks, the more he realizes he hates 
everything about being a lawyer.  He hates his clients. He (needless 
to say) hates other lawyers.  He hates the way every time he tells 
people what he does for a living, they react as if he said "Nazi 
medical researcher."  He hates his office.  He hates Latin phrases.  He 
hates it all and finally decides he really wants to have a completely 
different job, something fun, something carefree, something 
like...hang-gliding instructor.
	Meanwhile, somewhere out there a middle-aged hang-gliding 
instructor has just discovered he hates *his* life.  He hates not 
making enough money to own a nice car.  He hates sudden downdrafts.  He 
hates having to be nice to vacationing lawyers.  What he really wants 
is a better paying job that enables hims to so something truly useful 
with his life.  Yes, the more he thinks about it, the more he wishes 
that he had become....a doctor.
	Of course, if he did a little research, he'd find that most 
doctors hate the medical profession.  They hate getting sued.  They 
hate the way everybody assumes that they're rich (they are rich, of 
course).  They hate their beepers.  They hate peering into other 
people's personal orifices.  They wish they had a career with less 
responsibility and fewer restrictions, a fun career that permitted them 
to drink heavily on the job and squander entire afternoons seeing how 
loud they could burp.  In other words, they wish they were....humor 
writers.


			Common Myths About Sex And Aging

	The biggest myth, as measured by square footage, is that as 
you grow older, you gradually lose you interest in sex.  This myth 
probably got started because younger people want to have sex at every 
available opportunity including traffic lights, whereas older people 
are more likely to reserve their sexually activities for special 
occasions such as the installation of a new pope.
	But there's no reason for us to feel that getting older should 
stop us from having sex.  Our role model in this area should be such 
biblical stud muffins as Job, who, if I remember my Sunday school 
lessons correctly, remained sexually active for several hundred years.
	Physiologically, there is absolutely nothing to prevent us from 
remaining sexually active into our 60s and 70s and even  80s, except, 
of course, the possibility that Doing It will cause sudden death.  In 
the interest of common decency I am not going to name any names, but 
this is apparently what happened to a billionaire who was vice 
president of the United States under Gerald Ford whose name rhymes 
with "Pelson Pockefeller."  He was allegedly working late one night on 
a book with a "research assistant," and all of a sudden, probably 
right in the middle of an important footnote, bang, so to speak, old 
Pelson was *gone*.
	But this is unlikely to happen to you.  For one thing, you 
don't even have a research assistant.


	From "Dave Barry Turns 40"

    re:  .92
    
    Dave Barry at his best!  I'm still laughing....Thnx for sharing this
    with us....
    
    -Dotti.

220.3>    No, I do not play basketball.  Do you play miniature golf?
    
    Oooh, that's good, Margaret.  Consider it pilfered.

	Sharon (6' 1/4" in thick socks ;-) )

>             <<< Note 13.136 by WAHOO::LEVESQUE "Crispy Critter" >>>
>                   -< maybe he can just sense "special"... >-

�>   He was doubtless
�>   so smitten with my beauty and sexiness that he just completely forgot
�>   what the hell he was doing there!                       
    
>     I can see it. :-)
    
>     The Doctah
    

    But, the *real* reason Sharon doesn't play basketball is because they
    can't make sneakers big enough to fit her feet ... something about
    canvas trees not being big enough...

       re 220.5 ([NOVA::FISHER]):
       
       >  Years ago folks used to ask me "How's Liz?"      
       
       > ed
       
       So, how's Debbie?

    Actually, she slipped into Russian (with a Scots accent) and he was 
    lost in fantasies of the exotic.

yeah, it's been a challenge ever since blue oxen became an endangered species...

    resp. 220.21...
    
    OUCH!  you don't do things by halves, do you Paul!
    
    							=m

    (actually, it's 220.22)

    RE doing things by halves - I dunno - it was a pretty half-witted way
    to ride a bicycle... I've half a mind to get a mountain bike, now that
    I'm half-way healed.

    the very best, Gale, both on the new job/location and on having your
    daughter back with you... it seems you and Barb are running neck 'n
    neck on your upheaval quotas.
    
    grins 'n hugs,
    Marge

    RE:.47
    
    Rita,
    
    How about a petition that people could sign? It could be sent to
    Parker Brothers and to newspapers, too.
    
    The Stone Center brought some women entrepreneurs here recently,
    and one of them had previously worked at Parker Brothers. She
    said they were neanderthal beyond words. 
    
    (On another subject, 
    several of those women had Dept. of Labor (I think) statistics
    that indicated that women were 100 percent more successful
    when running their own businesses than in corporations. I
    thought that very interesting. Women can get ahead, when no
    one is holding them back?)
    
    Eileen
    

    I believe that organizing for this type of petition is against DEC's
    rules on boycotts, etc. Parker Brothers is apt to be a customer or
    should be one. This type of activity can't be done on DEC property
    (i.e., computers). Saying you personally are going to write a letter is
    one thing, but urging others to is against the rules on solicitation.
    
    Mods, could we have a decision on this?

    See note 228.*

    As I said in mail, Tamzen is correct about the anti-solicitation
    policy.  We can legitimately state what we ourselves plan to do, and we
    can offer to support the efforts of others should they choose to act,
    but we cannot urge them to act (or refrain from acting).
    
    						=maggie

    
    	I suppose I shouldn't be shocked at that but I am.
    	What a disgusting statement.
    
    	JJ
    

Re: 220.46 (What a cute little girl! *His* name is Jesse!!!)

Gee REK, I don't get it. :-) When *I* get that, the dialog is something like:

	Them:	Oh, what a darling little girl, what is her name?
	Me:	(smiling) "Kai" K - A - I.

Of course half the time Kai is wearing a pink diaperwrap, and the sex of a baby
is only obvious to the people who change its diapers... :-)

Semi-seriously:

It seems to bother you a lot that your son gets mistaken for a girl. *Why* does
that bother you? What is it about being mistaken for a girl that is so bad?

Hmmm...

	-- Charles

P.S. I'm also pulling your chain so don't take this TOO seriously or personally.

    Charles, for some reason, most people think that Jesse is a girl?!?!?
    And then I have to tell them that HE IS A BOY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    REK

	
	re: REK

	So???????  I do not understand the issue?????


	_peggy

    Peggy, its seems that whenever people hear Jesse they think of
    the child being a girl.... People all asume that Jesse is a girls name
    and not a boys name....
    
    REK
    
    Seems I stretching this a bit here in the rathole note... but people
    always fall into the same rut.....

Maybe they should make little shirts for kids like "I've got a penis" or some
such.
	Mez

	I understand that people can be confused by anything -
	BUT again - (this time I am serious) what is the issue
	you have with the confusion?????  What difference does
	it make whether or not people know your child is male
	or female????  This may be just a retorical question.

	_peggy

    re .112  Jesse Winchester and Jesse Colin Young come to mind. 
    Both male. Also Jesse Jackson. *Who* is assuming 'Jesse' is
    female ? Unless people use it as a nickname for Jessica.
    (My sister calls her daughter 'Jess' not 'Jesse')
            

    re .112 and .114:
    
    Yes, "Jessie" is a nickname for Jessica and is pronounced
    the same as "Jesse".  And it's a very popular girls' name
    right now.
    

    Unreal.....
    
    I mean, is it so damn hard to see what Rick is talking about?
    
    Picture if you will.....
    
    I, a male, am sitting in my undies at Dr Levines office waiting. I have a
    special problem, a hernia..... I called, and made an appointment with a
    Doctor that I have never seen.  Ah well, Dr Levine is the best, so I 
    am told.
    
    anyhow, I am sitting there, awaiting the probe session.....
    a woman walks in, asks "soooo, what seems to be the problem?".
    
    "well, I think i have a hernia or a pulled groin or somthing...."
    "I am waiting for Dr Levine to see me....could you go an find him for
    me nurse?"
    
    "I AM Dr Levine......."
    
    Oh.... er....um....... OK...well.......
    
    
    help a little folks?  hmm?
    
    we're talking about gender specifying here...... the name or maybe the
    hair, or clothes, whatever, automatically tips people off.... that is,
    they ASSUME without fact.  No Misogyny here.. he is not ashamed, nor
    does he hate women... gesh people..... don't read so dang hard......
    
    Its like when something, or someone, keeps happening over and over
    again....it gets to ya......
    
    Rick, if its ano consolation, it used to happen to me with AJ also....
    when he was but a few months old, he was always called a girl.....
    
    Personnally, I ignored it and very nicely corrected them, but hey, I
    can see what you re talking about.....
    

    "Jessie" and "Jesse" don't *have* to be a nickname for "Jessica".
    It's a woman's name all by itself. I had an aunt (past tense
    because she's deceased) named Jesse, and it wasn't short for
    anything. It just happens to be one of those androgynous names.
    
    --- jerry

    And one of the authors in S&S VI is a man who spells his name "Jessie",
    much to the chagrined amusement of The Editor.

<from one of the et alia>

Re: .120

Yep. That's what I was trying to get at, but it wasn't supposed to be a deep
analysis, just something to get a small ironic smile. You see I actually
think I understand what REK is annoyed about, it would be the same if I had,
say, a burmese cat and everyone kept saying "Oh, what a pretty siamese!"
Eventually (and not too long) I might start replying in a snarl

	"IT'S A BURMESE DAMMIT!!!"

Which doesn't say anything about what I feel about siamese, I might actually
LOVE siamese. So let's not read TOO much into all this, I WAS trying to pull
REK's chain.

However, the other point I was trying to make that Peggy picked up immediately
is that this one thing seems to be something that no one can "let ride".
Again if I'm the hypothetical Burmese cat owner above, every once in a while,
or even pretty often I might just smile (at their ignorance or whatever) and say
sweetly "Why thank you!" With the sex of a baby (or even more an older child)
that is the ONE "mistake" that people will always correct. *Always*. Why?

	WHY IS THE SEX OF THE BABY SO DAMN IMPORTANT!?!?

	WHAT *POSSIBLE* DIFFERENCE CAN IT MAKE?!?!?

There, perhaps I should try moving this discussion yet again this time to hot
buttons!

	-- Charles


P.S. I've been wondering what it is that Kai will decide to do that will drive
me up the wall. You know, all kids find something that drives their parents
crazy. I think I've figured at least one of them out. He's going to be SO sick
of us using him in a crusade against sexism that he's going to react and act
like a stereotypical macho a**hole. sigh. And it will be our own fault. :-)

Well maybe not "a crusade against sexism" but "raised non-sexist". I can see it
now - 

	"Daaaad. Only giirruls do *that*."

	"What did you say!? You go to your room right now!"

	:-)

P.P.S Maybe we should move all this to the "raising non-sexist kids" topic.

...now that's udder nonsense!     (didn't we already do all the bovine jokes?)

the sex of a baby is not important.  it makes absolutely no difference to the
baby.

however, _most_ babies are male or female.

lord knows my mother was grotequely ashamed that I was female; but was never 
_proud_ to have me mistaken for male and always corrected people who made this
mistake.  I don't think it was _important_ that I was female, merely correct.

she also corrected/s people when they got/get my name wrong -- except Dad, he 
has parent-privs I gather so the fact that I am not now and have never been
'Anne Richardson' despite his persistence in introducing me as such is of no
moment so long as he understands that we're related ... or something ... he
calls me 'Gus' anyway ...

   Annie

    
    In light of the hernia issue.
    
    I, and most people I know who care do also, always ask the sex of my
    physician. When you assume that Dr. Levine is male, and then blame HER
    for being female and not telling you, you're doing her quite an
    injustice; its YOUR hang-up. Admit it, change it, or work with it, but
    don't have a fit at the doctor's office because YOU forgot to check
    about something that matters to you.

    re .67
    
    > ...now that's udder nonsense!     
    
    No bull.
    
    - M

    re: 13.141

    I'm absolutely amazed you didn't like that picture, Kath... I thought
    it was one of the best on the roll!

	Sharon

    RE: Last. well then you obviously missed my whole meaning.....
    
    to make it very clear.... first off, I could care less, BUT!
    what I was trying to show was that I (not really, but for the analogy
    to work, I had to use someone)automatically assumed the gender of the
    doctor was male..... and was shocked that he was indeed a she.....for
    everyone knows that all good paying jobs like doctors are male right?
    
    as for stating that I was "blaming her".. well, yes, in the model, I
    was indeed blaming her...... it was mainly to show the unconcious
    ignorance that we all hold and sometimes show.....
    
    
    Oh, and one last thing... if you honestly believe that all Ob/Gyn's are
    male, then you are truely blind.....  take a look through this file...
    you will find many women here requesting a FEMALE, and not a male...
    sort of an example of the "preference".....
    
    clearer?
    

    Al,
    
    You yourself should read more carefully.  Maz referred to "all the
    male ob/gyns" not to "all the ob/gyns are male".  She knows that
    many are women.  Trust me :-}.
    
    And if you were referring to "I" as a generic (which I could somewhat
    detect as I was reading), then you should be obliging enough to read
    the resultant references to "you" as generic, as well.  That's only
    fair, isn't it?
    
    							Ann B.

    Have we milked this topic for all it's worth, or what?

re. We've herd it all before

yeah, but cud we hear it once again?

...because I can't stomach(s) much more of this!

-Hamp

    I don't think we've herd the hoof of it!
    
    -daniel

re .74

You're probably right but don't steak your life on it.

-Hamp

    
    when writing titles, I have to use a few short words.
    
    'cuz of all the male ob/gyns = there are a lot of 'em in the field.
    
    And since I don't like going to them, I ALWAYS ask first. I got the
    feeling that men aren't used to a lot of women urologists or
    proctologists, and so they aren't in the habit of asking what sex the
    doctor is, even though they DO have a gender preference. They just
    assume that the doctor will be male, and then when the assumption THEY
    MADE is wrong, they don't see that it was their error in not asking.
    
    Clearer???
    
    'ren

    AAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!
    
    
    
    
    I think I'll go hide.
    
    BJ

    I don't remember, but if it doesn't stop soon, I'll have to cower in
    the corner of my cube.

    A quote from Ogden Nash is appropriate here:
    
    "Ah, yes, I wrote the Purple Cow,
     I'm sorry that I wrote it,
     But I can tell you one thing now,
     I'll kill you if you quote it."
    
    Gee, all those silly (and some inspired) puns from one dumb joke.
    

    Cripes!  all this for one insignificant, somewhat loosely writen
    analogy.......
    
    ferget it......for crying out loud.....

    These are the wurst puns I have ever herd. Every moone flanks
    humoor. I tried to give them a fair steak, but have found them
    milkty.  I'm so discowt!  Let's cut this in claf before we reveal
    any moore.

re. Purple Cow poem

But that's a cow of a different color.

    
    
    	as Bart would say...
    
    
    
    	"Don't have a COW, man!"
    

    As a Callahan's fan, I'm enjoying the puns. What's your beef.
    
    Phil

    We may not have stopped, but at least we've slowed down...
    
    isn't heifer loaf better than none?
    
    and all these puns jer-seeying can't be doing any harm, can they?
    
    Is it really causing that much angu(i)s(h)?
    
    -Jody
    

    This *is* the rathole note, after all!
    
    Just wipe those tears away and lighten up.
    
    							Ann B.
    
    Snicker, snicker.  typetype  Giggle.  typetypetype  Snigger ;-)

    Frankly, this brand of humor stinks like a cowpie.  I think you all
    should be hog-tied.  Can't anybody lead us into greener pastures?
    
    ;-)  ;-)
    
    Nanci

re must be a full moon

Is that the one the cow jumped over?

-Hamp

    I was not the one whining/crying ann.  Furthermore, I was not the one
    looking for some underlying misogynistic reason for REK's not liking
    his son being called a girl.......
    
    I sure hope those giggles were an indication of your intended humor....
    because "lightening up" isn't the word for it.....
    
    it appears (to me anyhow for what thats worth) that no matter what a
    male says here, it is misconstrued as some sort of hatred of/for/at
    women....  Yes, lighten up indeed.......
    

    re .101 don't be so bossy.
    
    ;-)
    
    Phil

    We're really milking this one.  Anybody got a shovel??  
    
    I must say this topic has been quite re-veal-ing.
    
    Nanci

    
    Oh dear, the utterances have hit the bottom.  I fear the discussion
    may have stalled with all this mucking around.  I will however point
    out that this is =WN= and some of the puns have steered us to the
    issue of gender in speech.  Shall we forget the cow is the female
    of the bovine species, really!  Now it would only be proper to have
    a FCO (for cows only) and FBD (for bovine discussion) note.  Of course
    no bullsh!t would be permitted in the FCO note of course.
    
    a-
    
    ps: I fear I've done it now, nah. ;*)
    

        It does not behoove us to carry on in this fashion.  Let's take
        the discussion to the calfeteria.
        
        "But these 'cojones' are much smaller than the ones we had last
        time!"
        
        "Se�or, sometimes the bull wins!"

    As Wendy's would say....
    
    Where's the BEEF?!?!?!?
    
    
    
    
    Between ...... Never mind...
    
    REK

    Some many cow jokes. I've hardly had time to even skim them.
    
    Eileen
    

    I'll bite...
    Between the puns?
    
    
    Help me--I'm getting hysteerical.

    
    Al,
       I have seen a lot of your notes which certainly did not seem to fit
    in with the general aim of the conference, i.e. a forum for topics of
    interest to women, women's ideas, women's concerns, women's voices.
    Frequently, you seem to want to remind us of the male side of things,
    as though we don't see it enough.
    
    Just because I don't think that much of what you write has much bearing on
    women's voices, women's ideas, or women's issues and concerns doesn't
    mean that I think that you have HATRED for women. That's a pretty big jump.
    In fact, in many cases I've seen men write in the file who just sounded
    like they wanted to put their ideas in writing, despite the fact that
    these ideas were NOT specifically geared to a women's forum. It doesn't
    indicate hatred. Maybe just an inability to accept the idea of a
    conference set up for women.
    
    We won't even discuss specific cases of people trying to THWART the
    concept.

	Oh but my dear 'ren, you must realize that anytime a woman is
	not interested in what a man has to say, no matter what the
	topic, then she is showing hatred for all men, especially for
	the one speaking.  If she did not hate all men then she would
	sit idly by waiting for the man to finish speaking and then
	thank him for imparting his sage advice.

	We must observer decorum in all interactions with men, since
	we are but mere women who would be nothing without them to
	keep us.  And of course they can not abid with instruction.

	Now wasn't that nice.

		_peggy
			(-)
			 |
				And when they don't listen...
				well you know what to do...

				Remind him that he has a Mother too.

    
    
    
    
    
    
    
                            C O W a b u n g a!

    
    
    Peggy, why let such good sarcasm go to waste on such a d***ed futile
    subject?

    I give.....
    
    Ya know, page 380 of the American Heritage has a perfect discription of
    the way you two are acting......
    
    

    OK, it's the rathole -- p. 380 of my American Heritage (DEC issue):
    	keelhaul
    	keen (2)
    	keep
    	keepsake
    	keg
    	kelp
    	Kelt
    	Keltic
    	Kelvin
    	ken
    	kennel
    	kepi
    	kept
    	keratin
    	kerb
    	kerchief
    	kerf
    	kernel
    	kerosene
    	ketch
    	ketchup
    	kettle
    	kettledrum
    	key (2)
    	keyboard
        key club
    	keyhole
    	keynote
    	keynote address
    	key punch
    	key signature
    	keystone
    
    I give up; which do you mean?
    
    Karen	
    

    Well Al, I'm not sure what you're giving, nor what's on pg 380 of your
    dictionary. But I did not resort to sarcasm, I simply addressed some of
    your statements. If you can't deal with a woman addressing your
    comments from her own perspective, what the f*** are you doing in a
    women's conference?
    
    I think the fact that you lump me and Peggy together with a sweeping
    statement, one that involves some implied name-calling, when our noting
    styles were completely different, is very childish, as if you can reduce
    the merit of our input just because YOU don't value it.
    
    But if "I give" means that you're not planning to try to get the last
    word here, then that's fine too. I think its a good think when men
    "give" around here. It sounds to me like you're saying you're going to
    take your marbles and go home. Well, I'm not going to try to stop you.

    >Note 58.136
    >ASHBY::FOSTER
    
    
     >Well Al, I'm not sure what you're giving, nor what's on pg 380 of your
    >dictionary. 
    
    Must be the wrong dictionary....
    
    >But I did not resort to sarcasm, I simply addressed some of
    >your statements. 
    
    Oh, is that so?  could have fooled me.
    
    >If you can't deal with a woman addressing your
    >comments from her own perspective, what the f*** are you doing in a
    >women's conference?
    
    there it is again...... acusing me of not "respecting womens
    perspectives"....  so much for dealing with "my statements" eh?
    
    >I think the fact that you lump me and Peggy together with a sweeping
    >statement, one that involves some implied name-calling, when our noting
    >styles were completely different, is very childish, as if you can reduce
    >the merit of our input just because YOU don't value it.
    
    Again, now I dont "value your noting styles".... and childish too
    boot...  thank you ever so much for telling me about myself.
    
    Never uttered a name.  just referenced a couple few words that could
    possibly fit the attitudes at hand.
    
    >But if "I give" means that you're not planning to try to get the last
    >word here, then that's fine too. I think its a good think when men
    >"give" around here. 
    
    That is correct.   after this reply, unless there are other tidbits of
    my personaliity that you would like to tell me about, I shall not write
    again.
    
    Yes, it is indeed a good thing when a male "gives" in to the typical
    bombardment of sarcasm and false acusations.
    
    >It sounds to me like you're saying you're going to
    >take your marbles and go home. Well, I'm not going to try to stop you.
    
    
    Again, reference to my childish personality, thank you.  
    Oh, and I aint leavin until I find my catseye and whopper!
    
    
    RE: Doc
    
    thanks pal.  Sure appreciate your extraordinary yet fact filled reply.
    
    
    

Well, 'ren, I enjoyed Peggy's sarcasm....
	Mez

    Stop it!  Trade the back-and-forth zingers offline please, as further
    ones in the file here will be deleted as trashnotes....
    
    -Jody
    

Thanx Jody.

So Karen, what does "kerb" mean?
	Mez

    re .136
    
    Al, your statements are interesting.
    
    > >Well Al, I'm not sure what you're giving, nor what's on pg 380 of your
    >>dictionary. 
    
    >Must be the wrong dictionary....
    
    I have an American Heritage. What word were you refering to?
    
    >>But I did not resort to sarcasm, I simply addressed some of
    >>your statements. 
    
    >Oh, is that so?  could have fooled me.
    
    I wrote notes .126, .131 and .133. I can understand you misinterpreting 
    .133, Mez didn't. Please tell me WHERE is the sarcasm? I was
    straightforward and quite serious.
    
    >     there it is again...... acusing me of not "respecting womens
    >perspectives"....  so much for dealing with "my statements" eh?
    
>>    Ya know, page 380 of the American Heritage has a perfect discription of
>>   the way you two are acting......
 
    Al, this is YOUR statement. It implied that you had a word that you
    wanted to use to fit a situation. It did NOT come across as the least
    bit "respecting" of perspective. If you think it was a respectful
    statement to make, show me how I could have interpreted it that way.
    I'm curious. I don't see how it could have, but I am POLITELY asking
    you to show me. With NO sarcasm.   
    
    >>Never uttered a name.  just referenced a couple few words that could
    >>possibly fit the attitudes at hand.
    
    Okay, be honest, Al. If it was NOT Peggy and me, who were you refering
    to? If you won't say who it was, then you're just playing games. I'm
    not going to call it "childish" again, but I do want to know WHY IS IT
    NECESSARY???
    
    >That is correct.   after this reply, unless there are other tidbits of
    >my personaliity that you would like to tell me about, I shall not write
    >again.
    
    Al, your "personality" strikes me as defensive. Moreover, rather than
    address directly ANY of my statements, you resorted to pulling words
    out of a dictionary. Why not just debate openly about my statements.
    I started this entire thing because your analogy hit a button with me.
    Men don't usually run into female proctologists, so its
    "understandable" that they would be indignant. Women run into male
    ob/gyns so frequently that lots of us are just used to it, and those of
    us who aren't have to ask. We don't have the luxury of being indignant,
    we're not supposed to be embarrassed. This bothers me a great deal. And
    because you brought it up, I said what bothered me. From there, you
    took this as a personal affront to you for making the statement. 
    This bothered me even more. Because I did NOT do that. But instead of
    trying to discuss it with me, your notes indicate that you felt MAYBE:
    challenged, indignant, defensive.
    
    That is why I said that you have problems dealing with my perspective.
    Can you understand how I got to that point? Can you see how early on
    you reacted unnecessarily (in my opinion) to my reaction to a disparity
    in the medical profession? And now it escalates to pulling words out of
    the dictionary!
    
    Now maybe, just maybe, you're reacting more to Peggy's comment than
    mine. But you said "you two". You included a second person, and your
    next note indicated that I was accurate in thinking it was myself.
    
    Why is my "perspective" that you are more interested in showing a male
    point of view (as witnessed from your note on the proctologist), and
    that you don't respect some women's perspective, (referencing your note
    about the dictionary, which followed my and Peggy's notes) so
    erroneous?
    
    If you're really supportive of the women here, trying to create a
    conference where women's viewpoints are respected and given additional
    space/weight to counter-balance the status-quo, why am I having such
    difficult time reading this from your notes?
    
    There is NO sarcasm in any of my above statements. I am angry at
    several of your statements, but I am making an honest effort toward
    civil dialogue. Please be "white enough" to do the same. Or "man
    enough". Or barring those, just try it anyway. 
    

    >Note 58.146
    >ASHBY::FOSTER    
    
    
    >Al, your statements are interesting.
    
    Why thank you, I think.
    
    >I have an American Heritage. What word were you refering to?
    
    We all know that "labeling" or name calling is a no no in notes. 
    Referencing a particular word, to my knowledge is not.
    
    
    >I wrote notes .126, .131 and .133. I can understand you misinterpreting 
    >.133, Mez didn't. Please tell me WHERE is the sarcasm? I was
    >straightforward and quite serious.
    
    Then I misread them, my apologies.
    
    
    >Al, this is YOUR statement. It implied that you had a word that you
    >wanted to use to fit a situation. 
    
    that is correct.  I also felt that I would get deleted for "calling
    names", for which I was not doing.  I was merely telling you that I had
    found an appropriate word that best suited your attitudes (from my
    perspective that is) toward me.
    
    >It did NOT come across as the least
    >bit "respecting" of perspective. 
    
    Your note appeard to be telling me that NONE of my entries are
    "respecting", not that that particular one was..... again, a misreading
    on my part.
    
    >If you think it was a respectful
    >statement to make, show me how I could have interpreted it that way.
    >I'm curious. 
    
    See above.  Actually, by NOT using the word, I was showing respect.
    
    >I don't see how it could have, but I am POLITELY asking
    >you to show me. With NO sarcasm.   
    
    done.  and with none.
    
    >>>Never uttered a name.  just referenced a couple few words that could
    >>>possibly fit the attitudes at hand.
    
    >Okay, be honest, Al. If it was NOT Peggy and me, who were you refering
    >to? If you won't say who it was, then you're just playing games. 
    
    Now you misread MY entry.  I was not stating that I did not address
    anyone in particular.  I was stating that I did not call anyone a name.
    
    >I'm
    >not going to call it "childish" again, but I do want to know WHY IS IT
    >NECESSARY???
    
    what?  Sarcasm?  I give what I get.  simple as that.
    
    
    >Al, your "personality" strikes me as defensive. 
    
    That is a correct assumption.
    
    >Moreover, rather than
    >address directly ANY of my statements, you resorted to pulling words
    >out of a dictionary. 
    
    Reason:  I was trying to show a simple model.  it was a poor one, but
    it was still an attempt.  You, instead of trying to see what the model
    was saying, chose to disect it and dispute a spacific part.  Am I safe
    to say that you, this time, misread me?
    
    >Why not just debate openly about my statements.
    
    Because I was not being debated, I was being treated as an ignorant ass
    without cause... Noone better say "if the shoe fits" either.....
    constantly having my words torn apart in search for some underlying
    meaning or some such.... there was no hidden agenda, I was trying to
    show how people act without realizing it.  that was it!
    
    >I started this entire thing because your analogy hit a button with me.
    
    and I followed, because your entries "hit a button with me" also.
    
    >Men don't usually run into female proctologists, so its
    >"understandable" that they would be indignant. Women run into male
    ob/gyns so frequently that lots of us are just used to it, and those of
    us who aren't have to ask. 
    
    But my entry wasnt based upon who women and men "run" to.  it was to
    show how people subconciously act SOMETIMES.
    
    >We don't have the luxury of being indignant,
    >we're not supposed to be embarrassed. 
    
    yea, and men arent allow to show emotions.... so what.  that is not the
    discussion.
    
    >This bothers me a great deal. 
    
    It does me also.
    
    >And
    >because you brought it up, I said what bothered me. From there, you
    >took this as a personal affront to you for making the statement. 
    
    That's exactly how I read it.  
    
    
    >This bothered me even more. Because I did NOT do that. But instead of
    >trying to discuss it with me, your notes indicate that you felt MAYBE:
    >challenged, indignant, defensive.
    
    as it did me also.  Try and discuss?  what?  you entry came across as a
    disection, an endless search for the real feelings I have, a hatred
    for/or/in/out/side/side/over women. 
    
    Challenged?  nope.  Indignant?  nope.  
    
    Defnesive?  now we are getting somewhere.... Yes, sort of.  I felt as
    though my entry wasnt looked at as the analogy it was ment for.  it was
    looked at because it was by a male (it DOES HAPPEN), or that maybe
    because it was a woman man thing, or whatever.... but it WASN'T looked
    at the way that I intended it to be......  
    
    then, the feelings of "defending my meaning" came on..... WHY?  why did
    I have to defend my meaning?  because this is womannotes?  I hope not.
    
    because I have an extra apendage?  gee, I hope not also... then why?
    
    or was it because someone took it upon themself to assume what I ment
    and start what appears to be an attack......
    
    
    >That is why I said that you have problems dealing with my perspective.
    >Can you understand how I got to that point? 
    
    yes.  can you also see mine?
    
    >Can you see how early on
    >you reacted unnecessarily (in my opinion) to my reaction to a disparity
    >in the medical profession? 
    
    again, yes.
    
    >And now it escalates to pulling words out of
    >the dictionary!
    
    
    I explained that above.
    
    >Now maybe, just maybe, you're reacting more to Peggy's comment than
    >mine. 
    
    no, it was prety much a joint effort.... with a little zinger here and
    there for effect from others.....
    
    >But you said "you two". You included a second person, and your
    >next note indicated that I was accurate in thinking it was myself.
    
    again, yes, you are indeed correct.
    
    >Why is my "perspective" that you are more interested in showing a male
    >point of view (as witnessed from your note on the proctologist), and
    >that you don't respect some women's perspective, (referencing your note
    >about the dictionary, which followed my and Peggy's notes) so
    >erroneous?
    
    
    it is not.  It is a combination of irritation at not being understood
    and feeling as though I am a child being scolded.  I resent that
    feeling.  I dont have to take it, and I shant.
    
    >If you're really supportive of the women here, trying to create a
    >conference where women's viewpoints are respected and given additional
    >space/weight to counter-balance the status-quo, why am I having such
    >difficult time reading this from your notes?
    
    
    that is because it isnt there.  I do NOT support preferential treatment
    for women (IE., "additional space/weight to counter-balance the status
    bull")  because that is nothing but the ole "hows it feel" shit that
    gets people into these sort of arguments/discussuions in the first
    place.
    
    >There is NO sarcasm in any of my above statements. 
    
    And I too, ment none.  if ANY comes across as such, please disreguard,
    it was NOT ment.
    
    >I am angry at
    >several of your statements, but I am making an honest effort toward
    >civil dialogue. 
    
    As I am too.  So far, you have and I respect that, but below I see it
    again....
    
    Case in point;
    
    >Please be "white enough" to do the same. Or "man
    >enough". 
    
    and what in sams heck is this supposed to mean?  is this some sort of
    racial or gender thing because I am a white male?  this is hopw I see
    it.
    
    >Or barring those, just try it anyway. 
    
    again, this comes across as if I am just too dense too see.... is that
    your meaning?  I dont think so, but hey, being "white enough" or "man
    enough" is such a difficult challenge, I am not sure if I am up to it.
    
    I hate challenges....
    

    Al,
    
    Ahah!  I think I grasp the underlying problem.  (And it is one that
    I think I have grasped before.)
    
    You (generic person expressing male viewpoint) explain why (some)
    men do <x>.  A woman explains that (IHHO) the reason behind the
                                                  ^^^^^^ ^^^^^^
    explanation of why men to <x> is <mumble>.  The you-person sees
    this as an attack/dissection of your why, yet TO THE WOMAN it
    is a discussion of something entirely *beyond* the why, and not an
    attack at all.
    
    (I apologize for all those emphases; it looks really ugly.)
    
    So, before you-generic (in any discussion) assume that you are
    being attacked, check and make sure that your attacker has not
    just lunged right past you to deal with something else.
    
    							Ann B.

    >that is correct.  I also felt that I would get deleted for "calling
    >names", for which I was not doing.  I was merely telling you that I had
    >found an appropriate word that best suited your attitudes (from my
    >perspective that is) toward me.
    
    First of all, for me and everyone else who has to read along, cannot
    figure it out, and is as curious as I am, WHAT'S THE WORD?
                                                              
    
    >Your note appeard to be telling me that NONE of my entries are
    >"respecting", not that that particular one was..... again, a misreading
    >on my part.
    

    Okay, here goes honesty Al.
                                                              
    Actually, you didn't misread my note at all. My statement about your
    notes, which was the SECOND statement, and was not sarcastic, came
    after having read several entries in which you reacted to other women's
    comments about what you were saying the same way you reacted to my
    first note, i.e. the "hot button" about all the ob/gyns.
    
    I think you react this way a lot. Not all the time, but often enough
    for it to be a noticeable pattern that I and other noters are aware of.
    You frequently take offense, or go on the defensive because someone was
    dealing with the subject matter of your note, when in fact, they
    weren't talking about you, they weren't upset about you being male,
    they weren't criticizing your character. It was JUST the content that
    they reacted to.
    
    I really think you take this too personally. And then you come back on
    the defensive, and THEN the "male" stuff comes up.
    
    This is what I've been reading, my analysis could be wrong.
    
   >>See above.  Actually, by NOT using the word, I was showing respect.
    
    Al, with this statement, I *really* think you're just toying with me.
    
    "Respect" becomes relative. "I'm thinking of calling you a name, and I
    don't mind telling you. I'll even tell you what page its on in the
    dictionary, 'cause I want you to know what the name is... but out of
    "respect" (but really 'cuz I don't want my note deleted) I won't put it
    in womannotes."
    
    This has nothing to do with being a white male. That kind of statement
    hits me as completely uncalled for. From ANY HUMAN BEING. And if you
    don't think my paraphrasing is accurate, I can go through and get all
    of *your* statements that lead me to make that sentence.
    
   � what?  Sarcasm?  I give what I get.  simple as that.
    
    Al, I went out of my way to be straight-up with you. I let you know how
    I felt, and why, with no sarcasm. So, WHY IS THE SARCASM LEVELED AT
    ME???
    
    You've got to be able to tell how you're coming across, just by
    re-reading your own notes. "I was not stating that I did not address
    anyone in particular.  I was stating that I did not call anyone a
    name." Your statement. basically saying that I gave you too much
    credit, that you were talking about me, you just don't want me to know
    what words you used. Sounds straight out of Calvin and Hobbes.
    And if you hadn't said so, you'd probably think the same thing if
    someone else had written it, especially in any other file.
    
>>Am I safe to say that you, this time, misread me?                      
  
    in regard to your note, NO, I did not "misread" your note. I reacted to
    a hot button. And you took it personally. This file is supposed to be a
    place where women can react to the gender discrepencies without someone
    getting defensive. And the one point that we will NEVER agree on is the
    purpose of this file, since you do NOT see it as being "women's space".
    
    >constantly having my words torn apart in search for some underlying
    >meaning or some such.... there was no hidden agenda, I was trying to
    >show how people act without realizing it.  that was it!
    
    Al, EVERYONE gets their words dissected in notes files. Its not "just"
    in Womannotes, either. And its not an attack on you. Its a discussion
    of words/concepts which you "just happened" to put forth.
                     
    >your entry came across as a disection, an endless search for the real
    >feelings I have, a hatred for/or/in/out/side/side/over women.
                           
    Maybe you got that from my second statement. Even though I did not in
    ANY way use the word hate. (you may have gotten this from other women
    reacting to your notes. Maybe THEY used the word hate. I did not.)I
    said you don't respect a lot of women's perspectives here. And I still
    think its true. My perspective on your note about proctologists is that
    its a very good example of a double standard that I abhor. And you have
    a problem with the fact that I made that statement, because that wasn't
    the point you were trying to make by saying it.
    
    Al, a lot of notes that you write in which you point out things that
    happen, just happen to be examples of things that frequently rub women
    wrong. And a lot of times, women have written that the situation you
    described, without even meaning to, is one of the things they can't
    stand.
    
    There's GOT to be room for that here. If women can't admit, in this
    file, that some situations that seem perfectly normal to you are
    situations that bug them like crazy, then this file is NOT fulfilling
    its purpose. And when you get defensive about their reaction, you're
    NOT giving them room to express themselves. That, is what I mean by
    not respecting our perspective.
    
    And I'm not the only person who gets very annoyed when you do this.
    
    Al, the majority of women here are reasonably tolerant of the presence
    of men in this file. Maybe not as tolerant as you'd like them to be,
    but you don't have any first hand experience with being a woman, to my
    knowledge, and that's a lot of what this file is about. Being a woman.
    Looking at things from the perspective of being a WOMAN. 
    
    Now, when you make statements that seem very normal, but from a male
    perspective, e.g. your doctor example, try to remember, that's NOT a 
    woman's perspective. Most women who are uptight about male ob/gyns
    would not react the way your model did. And so your MODEL stands out!
    NOT YOU!
    
    Can't you just stop and think about whether the majority of women have
    similar FIRST HAND experiences to your model? To me, that's "respecting
    a woman's perspective"? And permitting women to look at your model if
    it does NOT reflect our experience and to note that this fact is a
    disparity is another part of "respecting our perspective".
    
>>why did I have to defend my meaning?  because this is womannotes?  I hope not.
  
    I think we both agree that you chose to defend your meaning because you
    took it as an attack. But your meaning wasn't being questioned. It was
    reality that was attacked. A reality  I do not like. Regardless of who
    describes it. It has nothing to do with your appendage. It just
    doesn't.
    
    
    As far as "preferential treatment for women" which you don't support,
    please note the analyses that have been made. Women speak out less, 
    communicate differently, are more apt to be silenced in mixed company.
    If preferential treatment is NOT given, then women, in mixed company,
    will not easily be heard, until they feel safe to change their
    behavior.  And that can't happen without encouragement.
    
    So, we have this cycle. Women aren't heard. How do you get the women to
    speak up? You specifically encourage them. But that's preferential
    treatment! Yeah, but until things change, its the only way that works.
    
    Al, a disparity exists in the voices of men and women. Generations of
    men have been taught to assert themselves, generations of women have
    been taught passivity. Now, all of a sudden, we're all here in the
    workplace together, but having been taught different roles, women have
    to fight pretty hard not to become subordinate. Many males have gotten
    encouragement ALL THEIR LIVES. And their female counterparts have been
    silenced. You've got to encourage the disadvantaged group if you want
    ***as many of them as possible*** to be heard. Otherwise, you only get
    the few who would have made in anyway. THAT'S NOT THE POINT HERE.
    
    This is Womannotes. By its very title, a notes file for women to speak
    out, voice their opinions, develop themselves to interact as peers with
    men and women in a world where that skill may not have been taught
    before.
    
    Every time you say that you don't want to give women "preferential
    treatment", treatment to help correct a very big problem, without
    offering another solution to the problem, then you are part of the
    problem.
    
    And it has nothing to do with race or gender. Or "appendages".
    
    BTW, you're right. The phrase about being "white enough" or "man
    enough" was unnecessary. I tossed them out as a reminder that our
    language is so biased that being white and male is though of as a
    standard against which people should be measured. Al, you meet the 
    standard automatically, all you have to do is stand up and be counted.
    And until phrases like that are STRICKEN from our language, disparities
    about what's normal/acceptable/standard, will keep many non-whites and 
    women from being able to feel equal.
    
    But I do apologize for using those words. I was being sarcastic and
    it was uncalled for. I'm sorry.
    
    Was that white of me or what?   ;-)

	Hay, these puns are getting veally bad.

	(although, I must admit, I'm beef-side myself w/ calf-ter)




	>>AL<<

    
    
    Gee, what does it mean when a note called "The Rathole" stays on
    on track on a particular topic?  :-)  
                                          
    Justine

    please.....
    
    nomore
    
    thankyou

    ALl these puns on bovines. Try to walk in a cows moccasins for a day or
    so.
    
    In other words........
    
          Hiefer shoe fits, wear it.
    
    Oh no! DId I actually write that?
    
    Kate

    re: .149
    har har.. I laughed... OK?
    
    Per Mod, I give.  I shall be white.......
    
    You win, I loose, I disagree, you disagree, to hell with it......
    
    

re: 246.16

Oh Lorna, don't you know that Mark is not only a _guuuuuy_ but often does not
toe the feminist line! And we _aaaallllll_ know that this is really
feminist-notes; we just pretend it's for all women so we can fool the ones who
aren't feminist into sticking around long enough for brain-washing.

I mean, he even has a _moustache_! eeewwwwww.
	Mez

    re .208, yes, actually I had noticed that Mark's a guy. :-)
    
    Lorna
    

Gooosh or gooolllly geeeee whizzzz Heeeerb. Liiiten' up (if you were referin'
ta me). I mean, toootallly...........
	Mez

    Ophiucha
    
    Oomphale  -- as in, "snake's belly button"  <grin>
    
    Lucrezia
    
    Euronyme -- check your Greek myths
    
    Hug -- she is a constrictor!!
    
    Morgana 
    
    Delphi  -- the Delphic oracle was a pythoness
    
    Appollonia -- see above
    
    Too bad it's not a boy pyton, you could name him "Zipper"  :^)

    re:.37.6
    
    	� The man was arrested on four different charges:
    	[...] and Annoying a Person of the Opposite Sex. �
    
    Is there *really* such a criminal charge???!!!
    
    --- jerry

 >    re:.37.6
    
  >>  	� The man was arrested on four different charges:
  >>  	[...] and Annoying a Person of the Opposite Sex. �
    
  >>  Is there *really* such a criminal charge???!!!
    
  >>  --- jerry
    
    
      Gees, my husband should get the death penalty.
             
                ZZZZZZZZZZAAAAAAAAAAAAPPPPPP!!!!!!!!!!
    
    Kate

    But is there also "Annoying a Person of the Same Sex"? And does it
    carry the same penalty? (Or are the same-sex annoyers and annoyees
    expected to just duke it out?)
    
    I do get a kick out of the lists of charges levied against some
    criminals, by the way - when the list starts with "armed robbery"
    or some such thing and ends with "littering", I just have to giggle...
    
    -b

re: 251.52 (Lorna)

Yes, they're still starving in Ethiopia. I saw a newscast a month or so ago
that said that the gov't had decided to let foreign food come in through some
rebel-held port.
	Mez

In the processing topic, Lorna says:

>    new.  Afterall, it seems only fair that if I'm expected to spend a few
>    days in the woods killing animals, that you also put in a little effort
>    and learn to enjoy a day of clothes shopping in Boston with me!!

Gasp!  I would be hard pressed to come up with two worse choices for how
to spend a day!  hunting or shopping?  Why don't you just throw me in a 
pit of fire.  Or flay me alive.  Boy, if one is a "woman thing" and the
other is a "man thing" I sure am glad I'm androgynous! 

;-)

D!

    D!, you can always hunt for bargains.

    re .219, yes, but D!, it doesn't matter whether you like shopping or
    not, I was simply making an attempt to explain the concept of fairplay
    in male/female relationships to Eagle.  :-)
    
    (1st shopping, 2nd boiled in acid, 3rd hunting) <-- My choices
    
    Lorna
    

>    D!, you can always hunt for bargains.

Oh good, the worst of both worlds!

D!

>    re .219, yes, but D!, it doesn't matter...

Yes, I know, which is why I put it in the rathole note!

I just saw those two things in one sentance and thought, Oh geez, my worst
nightmare come true!  :-)

D!

    Given the options presented in the past few replies (hunting in the
    woods, clothes shopping in Boston, being flayed, being boiled in 
    acid, or some combination of the above), I would definitely choose to
    hunt bargains in the woods.  Any bargain I find I will shoot, and 
    it is welcome to defend itself by flaying me or boiling me in acid
    in return.

    I guess that roughly translates into hiking with a weapon.

	Sharon

    geez...I usually just takea machete to help keep the trails clear,
    but i *guess* it could be used...
    
    naw.
    
    

    Oh I dunno; I just can't picture hunting as the great american
    family affair.  I can see it now; 'hey son bring me the knife
    so I can gut this rabbit ...'  sorry...
    
    but then, i love being outdoors and spend lots of time with my
    daughter; one time we had Chinese Food at Quincy Market outside
    in the courtyard in January and the people from "Real People"
    came and filmed/interviewd us.  Another time, she and I spent
    Thanksgiving at Plimouth Plantation so that we could know what
    it was like then; then there was Salem for Halloween where
    we got to meet a real witch and her kids.  And then there's
    always the Mohawk trail where we can swim nude in the Deerfield
    River or hop rocks; or then there's Jacob's Pillow where we
    can go watch Mark Morris give a dance class outside on the
    inside/out stage; and then of course there's the beach.
    Oh yes,and the day we spent on the whale watch and lightening
    began.
    Hmm, yes I think now and then we watch TV too; that is after coming
    in out of the storm...
    
    maia
    

    re .226, so, it seems like you're saying that if women want
    relationships with men, we would stand a better chance of getting one
    if we enjoyed hunting, because that's something a lot of men like to
    do.  Let's see, which would I rather have...a relationship with a man I 
    had to go hunting with, or a relationship with a woman who
    didn't go hunting?  Gee, that's a good question?  I'll have to think
    about it.  (I really would hate to go hunting, tho.)
    
    Lorna
    

    
    
>    THEN these sports would become another area to enjoy together as 
>    a family.  In fact ... thinking about it ... the only times modern
>    families seem to get together is hunting/shooting/hiking/fishing
>    in the great out-of-doors ... or in front of the cable TV set ...
    
    Couples don't have to do *everything* together, you know, eagle.
    
    There's several activties my husband does that I don't and vice
    versa.  But I guess I could make the same case to him that you're
    making here - "c'mon Steve, you should *really* come out on a bicycle
    ride with me today so you can understand me better."  That's silly.
    

    My father was not a hunter, hunting was not a "family" activity.
    The "family" activity that brought everyone together was playing card
    games. I think your model of the "modern family" is kinda limited.
    
    What about: museums, Yellowstone Park, the Grand Canyon, Disney?
    
    Lots of families sightsee without killing anything but a mosquito here
    and there! And that's NOT just families with no boys.

    it doesn't make much sense to me why women should have to go and
    do "man stuff" in order to get along better as a family...what's
    this "man stuff" jazz anyway?
    
    why can't people do "people stuff"?
    
    daniel

    Hey Eagle, try shooting amimals with a camera and not a gun..... You
    might even like it!
    
    REK
    

    re .234, oh, I know!  I know!
    
    re .235, when you suggest that people who don't believe in hunting *go
    hunting* in order to appreciate it, it suggests to me that *you* have
    no appreciation of how much some people detest hunting.  You might as
    well suggest to me that I join a child molester, rapist or a murderer, 
    because to me there's no difference.  Mark, I hate hunting so much that
    I would rather be celibate for the rest of my life than have to
    hunting!  If hunting was the only way I could have a relationship with
    a man, then I wouldn't want a relationship with a man!  My integrity
    means more to me.  I don't want to *know* *why* some people enjoy
    killing animals - I don't want to feel the supposed thrill of it.  Do
    you want to know why some adults enjoy molesting children or why some
    men enjoy raping women?  I find hunting just as objectionable as most
    people find child molesting or rape.
    
    F*** hunting.
    
    Lorna
      

    re .235, I know you're going to accuse me of being "close-minded" and
    my answer to that is that everybody is close-minded about something,
    especially things they find really objectionable or boring.  I bet
    you're close-minded in regarding to discovering what I find so
    thrilling about spending hours in antique jewelry stores or looking at
    antique jewelry in shows.  
    
    I'm sick of the whole discussion.  I can't stop anybody who wants to
    from going hunting and nobody can make me like or understand it.
    
    Lorna
    

    
    
    I agree that sharing some activities that are important to your sweetie
    can be a bonding thing.  But there are some things that some folks
    find so distasteful that I don't think more closeness would happen
    even if you did manage to drag your partner along with you.  For
    example, it never even occurred to me to try to get my partner
    to go to the David Bowie concert with me tomorrow night (brag, brag,
    yes, I'm going to see him!!).  I mean if we were doing something that
    she hated or that I hated, we'd probably both have a lousy time.
    
    Justine

    Hopefully, you will understand these analogies, I think they make the
    point.
    
    I would not want to watch an undertaker.
    I would not want to watch a surgeon.
    I would not want to watch a taxidermist.
    
    I would not accompany a hunter.
    
    Mark, for some of us, watching a deer get killed would make us
    physically ill. I remember getting nauseous just seeing on tied to a
    car roof. Get a clue!

    I think the point of Mark's and Steve's comments are, you don't have to
    understand, or like someone who enjoys hunting.  But Value their right
    to enjoy it.  It may make you sick to watch or accompany a hunter, but
    it does not make a hunter a murderer because of how you feel.  so the
    whole point is, value the difference even if you don't like the
    difference...
    
    vivian

    
    probably an accessory to the crime. all the more reason to avoid
    adding additional sins to the list.
    

Whether it's a one of a kind necklace for that special occasion or the
quintessential Finnish credenza ...

 ... Annie is here to help yoy find it!

no fees, no commissions ... client/friend-satisfaction is her compensation.

In her company you will never suffer the _slightest_ twinge of guilt for your
self-indulgence for she knows that YOU ARE WORTH IT!! and is the kind of warm
and loving human being who makes sure _you_ know it too.

She is eminently qualified, having shopped the world over, and there's nothing
she enjoys more than taking a whole day to help others spend money on 
themselves.

Side trips to galleries, bistros, and museums available upon request.

No expiration dat on thi offer!!

    re. 251.114 >I tend to wonder why one person would need fifty guns.
    
    Collectors. Why would anybody need 50 pairs of earrings? Or ten
				  ----
    antique cars? Or five hundred comic books ? Need is irrelevant.
    
    "...and the pursuit of happiness." means that need is not the sole
    
    criteria for justifying our actions. When you start putting limits
    
    on *rights* based on need you're walking on dangerous grounds. 
    
    Imagine limiting the right of free speech by limiting the number
   
    of newspapers any one publisher could print. Scary.
    
    Dana
    
    PS. If one hunted all legal game, one would need two shotguns, three
    rifles, maybe a muzzle-loader, a pair of handguns, if so inclined.
    Then there's target shooting - 4 guns for skeet, a few more for
    trap, a rifle for conventional target, two more for silhouettes,
    pistols for the handgun variants of those, call it five more.
    If one decides to participate in other forms of shooting, ie. 'action
    shooting, plan on three more, oops, five more. I could easily prove
    'need' for fifty guns if I were willing to soak up that much recoil
    :-)

    re.248
    
    Thank you Dana, ;^).  I believe that I went to state that my friend
    also wondered why I 'needed' more than one set of dishes, thereby
    indicating that in matters of taste and hobbies there is no definitive
    answer.  I would not dream of taking her guns away from her; neither
    would I dream of asking her not to use those of her collection that are
    in good working order.
    
    I'm not angry or anything, but I am experiencing some frustration.  It
    seems that I cannot _buy_ a way to state that I don't have an affinity
    for firearms, yet am happy for those who enjoy them ...
    
    <sigh>
    
       Annie
    

    re .249 >cannot buy a way to state...
    
    That was actually an excellent statement by itself.
    
    Implicit in any right to do and enjoy X is the right to *not* 
    do or enjoy X. The freedom to worship a 'god' implies the
    freedom not to. The freedom to have an abortion implies the
    freedom not to. Etc. (Or, "'zero' is included in the set of
    possible answers" for you math buffs.) Freedom means being
    able to choose from *all* the alternatives.

    Still not sure about the connection between "enjoying the outdoors"
    and killing animals. 
    maia
    

    re .252, I'm not sure about that connection either.  I've enjoyed the
    outdoors for years without killing animals.
    
    Lorna
    

    re .252 Nobody said that they had to kill to enjoy the outdoors.
    Killing an animal is merely the focus of one variety of outdoor
    recreation. It is neither the whole of the experience, nor a
    prerequisite. I've had good times when hiking, camping,
    and learning map and compass. I've had good times when hunting, 
    though I killed nothing but time. 
    
    Equating hunting with 'killing animals' is as false as equating
    love-making with orgasm. You simply miss so much.

    
    I wonder how many of us "feminist" women and men who don't want to
    go hunting (and/or who don't understand why other folks enjoy hunting)
    would actually take action (as in lobby or vote for a law) to limit anyone's
    ability to enjoy hunting.
    
    Justine

    re: .251 eagles
    
    Eagles, please remember that it has been pointed out **several times**
    that you are polarizing views incorrectly.  I have said it and Lorna
    has said it and so have others.  It is NOT "hunters vs. feminists".
    
    Some men enjoy hunting.  
       -- some of them consider themselves feminists, some don't.
    Some men deplore hunting.
       -- some of them consider themselves feminists, some don't.
    Some women enjoy hunting.
       -- some of them consider themselves feminists, some don't.
    Some women deplore hunting.
       -- some of them consider themselves feminists, some don't.
    
    To say:
    
    "From your side Hunters/NRA are The Evil Ones ... while we-who-shoot
    find Feminists/Urban_Women the ones who want to vote away our heritage
    and life-style."
    
    is to be inaccurate.  It is HUNTERS/NRA vs. NONHUNTERS/anti-NRA. 
    FEMINIST:  Believing women are equal to men has nothing to do with
    believing people should not kill animals for sport OR with believing
    that is a fine way to spend a weekend.  URBAN:  Lorna grew up in a
    rural environment, not an urban one.  I grew up in upstate New York and
    New Hampshire.  I have eaten venison shot by our next-door neighbor in
    New York.  WOMEN:  some men have stated their dislike of hunting in
    this string.  Why do YOU, PERSONALLY, continue to polarize it wrongly?
    
    Since this IS the Rathole note, I'll add that being anti-hunting is not
    the same thing as being anti-NRA.  Although I dislike the idea of
    hunting, I personally am not against the NRA itself -- education is a
    wonderful thing, and if there are guns, there should be education about
    them -- but I am against some of the NRA's stands and I disapprove of
    the lobbying stranglehold they have.
    
    Pam

    
    Re .258 (Eagle)
    
    >>How many of you (meaning women and especially strongly feminist thinkers)
    >>know a few people who choose not to "Note" or who choose not to "Note"
    >>in the =womannotes= conference or who choose not to attend "Noter"
    >>parties because they believe they would not find "kindred spirits" and
    >>would be rejected as not Politically Correct ???  
    
    
    Except for the "Politically Correct" part, I personally know
    women whom I would call feminist, who feel what you've described
    in that passage.  In fact, I sometimes feel that way myself, but
    I did decide to go to the party on Friday.  Maybe I'll see you there?
    It would be fun trying to find a neutral topic to chat about, don't you 
    think?
    	- How 'bout those Red Sox?
        - Don't *talk* to me about the Red Sox.
        - Nice weather we're having...
        - What do you mean, it's been raining for three weeks.
        - Oh, right, well, I was just trying to make conversation...
        - Been to any good protests lately?  Read any good books?  Seen
          any good movies?
        - About those Red Sox....  :-)
    
    Justine
    

    
    re:.258 et al.
    is it the altitude?
    

    re .258

    You may suggest that the majority of veterans find gun-ownership to be
    a "masculine" characteristic, but I hope you're not extending that to
    the majority of "men" generally, because I don't believe it. I
    certainly don't see any connection between gun-ownership and maleness
    beyond certain statistical tendencies.  Anybody who would actually
    believe that "an anti-gun male is ... mildly deformed ... because it's
    considered a masculine thing to enjoy" is not someone whose opinions I
    would find enriching. (I assume you're not among them.) I'm not
    anti-gun in the sense that I propose confiscation of all weaponry, but
    I wouldn't own a gun and see no reason to connect my masculinity with
    my ability to shoot holes in things.

    re:.261
    
    But...but... guns and shooting are so *phallic*. Of *course* there's
    a link between guns and masculinity. :-)
    
    --- jerry

Ha! I'm going to theRed Sox game Friday. Rumor has it the tickets are special
(something about having to go through the service entrance; which sounds rather
suspicious....). They play the White Sox. Either team doing particularly well
this season?
	Mez

re >They play the White Sox. Either team doing particularly well
   >this season?

I think that the RED SOX are tied with the Blue Jays for first place.

-Hamp

    Since this is the rathole topic I would like to point out one thing
    that I think ratholes a discussion.  That is when those involved
    in the discussion are talking about two different things.  Some of 
    us have said we enjoy hunting.  And others keep saying "I don't see 
    how you can enjoy killing animals."  As eagle pointed out, hunting is 
    not equal to killing animals.  Killing is a necessary part of hunting.  I
    don't think it is an enjoyable part of hunting.  Do you think people
    who work on farms enjoy killing animals?  It is just seen as a fact
    of life that in order for humans to eat meat, animals have to be
    killed.  When you say that we "enjoy killing" it sounds like you
    think we would get our jollies by pulling the wings off of flies
    or something.  The reason that hunters spend so many hours practicing
    target shooting is so that they can make a quick kill.  With a well
    placed shot, death is instantaneous.
    
    The other thing is I _am_ interested in why rapists rape and why
    child abusers abuse children.  I think it is very ineffective to
    try to change someone without understanding why they do what they
    do.  
    	Linda

    re .265:
    
    > Killing is a necessary part of hunting.  
    
    No it's not.  Just ask my dad.  He's been deer hunting every year for
    as long as I can recall.  Hasn't gotten anything in over 25 years. 
    Still likes it though.
    
    - M

    Coincidentally, I'm taking a course this summer in the Vietnam
    experience and this week we watched the movie, "The Deer Hunter."
    
    It is an extremely complex movie, less to do with Vietnam and more
    to do with the Great Male Myth (John Wayne) western-type mentality
    that many people seem to grow up with.
    
    There's a lot of emphasis on the "one shot" kill; actually used
    as a metaphor for "better to die by one's hand than be killed by
    others" or some such rot. :-)
    
    I hated the movie.  The first kill -- one shot -- is of a deer,
    on top of a misty mountain top, with an 'angelic chorus' all around.
    
    Maia
    

    For Mez -
    
    The Red Sox are in first place, as of this morning, but haven't been
    playing tremendously well this month.  The White Sox are doing better
    than *anyone* expected they would at the beginning of the season. 
    They're a young club and really hustling.  Should be a good game.
    
    Alison

    re .265, Killing is not a necessary part of hunting.  You could do all
    the preparations and hike through the woods and then take a picture of
    the deer.  If you enjoy guns, you can shoot targets.  You don't have to
    kill animals to enjoy either nature or guns.
    
    It seems to me as though you're saying something like, "I can't stand
    the fact that some people think that I'm mean because of this hobby I
    enjoy."  The only answer I can think of is, "Hey, those are the
    breaks."  Sorry, but I don't have to approve of everything other people
    enjoy doing.  What do you care whether I think you enjoy killing
    animals?  I can't stop you from doing it no matter what I think.
    
    Lorna
    

    Lorna,
      It isn't what you think that bothers me but what you say and keep
    saying, especially when it isn't true.  If we were engaged in a
    discussion I would care what you think, since understanding and
    making oneself understood is the whole point of discussion (imho), 
    but since you don't want to understand I'll just say it for the
    benefit of anyone else who is listening.  :-)
    	Linda

    Linda,
    
    I do understand what you are trying to say but I think you're wrong. 
    :-)
    
    Lorna
    

    
    re:.267
    i happen to list 'the deer hunter' as one of my all-time favorites.
    it is, indeed, a difficult movie because of the violence and cruelty.
    however, as you say, it is a film of great complexity and deep
    emotional power. i would suggest it has alot less to do with the
    'great male myth' than friendship, family and community and how they
    are near destroyed, as was this country, by the debacle in vietnam.
    
    and since this *is* the rathole, has anyone ever played 'beer hunter'?
    

    GAle,
    
    I have Over a dozen snakes in my garden and I leave them there,
    even making places for them to hide.
    
    Why because snakes eat all those icky bugs!
    
    Bonnie

Are PCs PC?
	Mez

yes, ... that's probably why I don't own one.

after all the truly pc know that pc is a myth from start to finish anyway ...

    Guns == masculinity??? No way.

    Everyone knows fast loud cars == masculinty.

    I know whenever I see/hear a guy peel rubber down the street that I
    think "wow, he must have a big c*ck". I mean , it's even a better
    indicator than noses. liesl 

    Or feet, liesl  ;-)

    .262
    
    "This is my rifle
    This is my gun
    One is for killing
    One is for fun"

    
    re Note 259.1 HEFTY::CHARBONND 
    
    >>That faulty headlight, that you thought you had fixed, will
    >>fail while you're having your car's annual safety inspection.
    >>
    >>Anybody lookin' for a good used pickup ?
    
    
    I don't know, Dana.  I mean, I'm no car wiz, but selling a
    pickup because of a faulty headlight does seem a little extreme to 
    me :-)

    It's a timing thing, see. I just know that the next time the
    light goes out I'll be on a dirt road with no streetlights.
    Or trying to find a house where some extra-nice female is waiting
    for our first date. Or I'm late. Or...
    
    Ringer's law: The timing is _always_ wrong.

    You know, I hate reading a note while people are deleting things.
    
    This is the second time that I've had this note pop up as unread in the
    last thirty seconds, but I've already read these replies three times,
    and some of them keep disappearing!!!
    
    I am becoming confused.
    
    Lisa

    No, I would just like to read a note and have it stay seen.
    
    Lisa

    re: 251.150
    
    	� Do people of Native American descent now consider it
    	offensive to be called Indians? That was the impression
    	I had received so I was unsure whether I should use the
    	word Indian. �
    
    I don't know, but I'm rather offended by the use of the term
    "Native American" in that context. First of all, *I* am a
    native American. I was born here, after all, not in Armenia,
    not in Germany, not in England, not anywhere else. I'm miffed
    at the idea that because my ancestors came from somewhere else,
    it makes me less "native". Second of all, even the so-called
    "Native Americans" ancestrally came from elsewhere if you go
    back far enough.
    
    Me, I like the term "Amerind". It's short, direct, and to the
    point. And it doesn't invite confusion with natives of India.
    
    --- jerry

    Marge,
    
    The last time that I had my eyes checked I was told I'd need bifocals
    within a year or two. But he reassured me that every year over 40
    that you *don't* need them is a bonus. So at that rate I've had 6 bonus
    years. ;-)
    
    Bonnie

    oh well, i guess that cranks out three (almost four) bonus years for
    me. my 40-year old brother brightened my day by telling me he's already
    using reading glasses.  
    
    Grins ;^)

>    hmm, what are "true women?"
    
Women who are faithful to being women? :-) Women not made of plastic? women
"having a basis in fact"? (not _that's_ scary...) authentic women? (I like that
one.) "being such in the best or most desirable sense"?...
	Mez    

So, these tickets my friend got are "Personal Suite Admission" tickets (her mom
is a valued employee of Tamposi, who owns part of the Red Sox). Any idea what
this means? What I should expect?
	Mez

    who killed mr. moonlight?
    

    
    re 261.26 on Male Bonding

    >>Hearing women talking about male bonding is, to me, incomprehensible.
    >>Why? Well: imagine, if you will, a group of men sitting around, trying
    >>to describe what women do and say when *they* get together. 
    >>Impossible, right?
      
    Actually, it's not at all difficult for me to imagine what it would be
    like for a group of men trying to describe women's experience.  But
    just as I wish men would be more respectful of women who want to talk
    about their experience, I hope women (we women :-) will be respectful
    of men's discussion of their experience -- not sure I would have
    started or proposed such a discussion in Womannotes, but here it is, so
    I'd like to see us (women) be careful not to judge what men say about
    their experience of male bonding since we did ask them to tell us about
    it (in the basenote).
    
    Justine
                                               

    re 263.5, Bonnie, I recently bought and read three books of the "Dykes
    to Watch Out For" cartoon strip.  I think they are hysterically funny
    and enjoyable to read.  As my daughter said, it's sort of like Cathy
    only all of the main characters are lesbians.  The other two books are
    called, "More Dykes to Watch Out For" and "New and Improved Dykes to
    Watch Out For."  I can't remember who writes them....Alison something. 
    I discovered them at the Womanscraft store in Provincetown.
    
    Lorna
    

    Justine, the point I was trying to make was this:  if a group of men
    tried to describe what women say and do when they (women) get together,
    the men's description would almost certainly be wrong -- because we don't
    know.  It's not disrespect, it's ignorance.
    
    If you sensed disrespect, or sarcasm, then I apologize for not being
    sufficiently clear in my statements.
    
    					andrew

    Sometimes when I read notes about the right to bear arms and weapons I
    get the feeling that the folks that are so vocal on these subjects feel
    that the world is going to hell in a handbasket if their viewpoint is
    not acknowledged.  I do not share their opinion and have no reason to
    join their bandwagon.  I respect the work that the NRA is doing to
    protect the rights of citizens who wish to bear arms, I just don't feel
    that the issue is a major priority in todays world and I sometimes feel
    annoyed when someone tries to badger me into submission.
    
    I have started a note "What is your cause?"  I have mine and I am
    convinced if we don't start looking at what we discard the world will
    be in a lot of trouble.
    
    I guess I should have the same intensity about my cause!
                                                           

	Re: 83.191 (Doctah)

>are getting hosed. Ever wonder why the NRA is one of the two institutions to
>be cited for giving consistently factual information to congress? It wasn't


	Ok, I'll bite.  What's the other one?



	>>AL<<

    
    re 276.3   FWO Events: Are They Sexist?  WRKSYS::STHILAIRE "
    
    >>There is no law saying that people can't hold one sex only functions 
    >>in their own homes is there?
    
    God, I hope not ;-)
    
    Justine
    

re: Justine:

GROAN!
	Mez

       <<< Note 58.297 by N2ITIV::LEE "The stupid is always possible" >>>

>>>are getting hosed. Ever wonder why the NRA is one of the two institutions to
>>>be cited for giving consistently factual information to congress? It wasn't

>>	Ok, I'll bite.  What's the other one?

If memory serves, it the Americal Library Association.  The NRA knows it would
be hung out to dry if it lied.  Therefore it is very, very, very careful about
what it says.

It is still nevertheless always being accused of lying...

                               Roak

    From 13.193 -
    >> Clinton may be the 'burbs ...
    
    Clinton is "the sticks".
    
    Ann X. Clintonian

I occasionally have a terror struck moment when I issue the command SHOW MARK,
that I will see all of Mark Levesque's notes flash before my eyes...
	Mez

    
    horrors!
    

    It occurred to me as I plowed through all the notes about guns and
    politics and the Bill of Rights that our Forefathers were extremely
    negative to think that we must have something written that insures that
    we are able to bear arms. 
    
    I personally believe that it is possible to live in an environment free
    from danger.  A good government, with good laws and educated people are
    a combination that will work someday.
    
    

    The Framers, who had just been through a revolution, were
    understandably concerned about what could happen if government
    took the potential exercise of military force away from the populace.

    re Pam Smart, etc.
    
    Publicising this story in the public media and here in Womannotes just
    serves to prove that men and women are equally violent.  That it's just
    as dangerous to be a man in this country as it is to be a woman.
    I mean, if the possibility of women doing violence to men weren't
    equal to the possibility of men doing violence to women, the two
    wouldn't get equal coverage, would they?  Let's not talk about
    the problem of violence against women, 'cause I knew a man once who
    told me that his male cousin used to be terrified of his wife and
    that's why he did all the cooking while she was off having affairs
    with various members of the local police force.  If there were really
    1,000,000 women getting beaten by their husbands or live-in lovers
    each year, it'd be headline news everyday, wouldn't it?  

    Gee, if I were just a little more attractive, maybe I could quit this
    job at DEC and make my living extorting money from men whom I threaten
    to accuse as rapists.  We women just seem to have the ability to convince
    a little ole policeman, judge and jury of just about anything.  That's
    why the police come running when we tell them our boyfriends have
    threatened to blow our heads off and why there are so many poor
    innocent men in jail for rapes and murders they never committed. 
    Excuse me, the king just stopped by with the head of another falsely
    accused rapist, and I have to make room for it in my cube.  Gee, you'd
    think the severed heads and limbs would discourage other men from
    entering my web, but....  they just can't resist my spider-like
    woman-charm.  I guess that's why they can't give me equal rights --
    imagine if I were allowed to run around loose...

    Justine                                               

    Sarcastic or not Justine, I cannot help but think that it was prompted
    by you missreading what I was trying to say......  thanks for asking...
    

    re .310, it's just that you give the impression you're ready to lynch
    her without a trial.
    
    And, you give the impression of being delighted that a woman may have
    committed violence, just so you can point it out in this conference.
    
    Lorna
    

    
    
    Gee, maybe we need a responses-to-the-Rathole topic...
    
    Al, I don't think I misread what you wrote -- my note was not intended
    to reply to yours, but I do think that you and I have a genuine
    difference in how we understand or believe maybe that men are
    treated by our "legal" system.
    
    It is probably true that because of what I know about how humiliating,
    terrifying, and spritually and psychologically damaging it is to
    survive a rape and then deal with the "legal" system as a witness for
    the prosecution against the rape suspect...  I may be predisposed to
    believe that a man who is on trial for rape is actually guilty of it.
    Now if I'm wrong, and he finds out that I believe this about him, it
    will probably hurt his feelings.  But he's not going to go to jail
    because I happen to believe that he's guilty.  I really doubt that
    I will ever serve on a jury for a rape trial.  Our culture so worships
    the law and the concept of "justice," which as I see it means the
    ability to interpret THE LAW "blindly" that I really doubt very many
    white men get falsely imprisoned over crimes against women.  I think
    non-white men are much more likely to be falsely accused and maybe
    falsely imprisoned --mainly because they don't get "blind" justice, and
    they are often unable to afford to "use" the system the way so
    many white men seem able to.  I don't think the patriarchy will fall
    if I find myself identifying with the women survivors of rape instead
    of with the suspects.  I am glad that we have a system that values the
    concept of a fair trial for all, and I hope I live to see the day when
    more of us can actually expect it to happen.
    
    Justine
                                                              

    RE: Lorna
    
    False impression.  Sorry.  I am not delighted, nor shall I ever be
    delighted when violence is committed....TOWARDS ANYONE.
    
    RE: Justine.
    
    Understood.

Note 242.59                    Obscene Phone Calls                      59 of 59
RTOEU::TVANDIJCK                                     11 lines  14-AUG-1990 04:25
                         -< That's amazing F''' !!!!! >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
>    that's terrific, never thought of becoming an opera singer,
>    this high f is used in the first aria of Queen of the night
>    in the MAGIC FLUTE from Mozart, also Zerbinetta in ARIADNE AUF NAXOS
>    from Richard Strauss has to sing a D'''.
	
	Uh-uh.  I sang the Queen of the Night aria when I was in college.
It was the most fun recital I've ever done.  One of the music professors had 
passed me over for something in favor of a music major who didn't sing nearly 
as well as I did.  (I was a Comp Sci major.)  I wouldn't have minded this if
he had been honest.  I can deal with music majors getting preference if it 
is acknowledged.  But he lied and said it was cause she was better.  (This is
not just my conceit saying that I was better, in a rare break from the usual 
unity, I had two other music professors tell me I was robbed. :-) )  So my voice 
teacher and I set about to knock his socks off.  (The professor is question
was on my jury panel for that semester.)  At the same recital I also sang 
Shubert's "Der Tod und Das Madchen"  (Forgive the spelling.  I'm pretty sure 
that last word is spelled wrong but I can't find any spelling I like better.:-) )  
Death and the Maiden takes you down to a D below middle C.

>    How can you manage this very
>    high note without feeling bad afterwords, 

	Very carefully!  :-)   Actually, in something like the QotN aria, it's
fairly easy to hit becuase it is not a sustained note.  You just give a punch 
with your diaphragm, bop the note and move on.  For an obscene phone call the 
adrenaline rush overcomes your lack of a warm-up and helps you use your 
diaphragm to support a sustained tone.

	
>    even people with singing 
>    lessons don't manage this because it's very, very high. But to sing
>    it whenever you want to sing it, it's really amazing !!!
 
	Well, I wouldn't go so far as to say I could sing it NOW.  My voice is 
really out of shape.  I've lost over half an octave off the top of my range 
since I quit singing "professionally" 5 or 6 years ago.

  
>    Carina-who-once-wanted-to-become an opera singer-and always admires
>    singers with perfect technique-(see Edita Gruberova or Lucia Popp)


Tracey

    I have been acting and sounding as PC as possible in the hopes that it
    would help me get laid.  Well, it hasn't worked.  My sex life is, in
    fact, as tragically nonexistent as ever, and I can see that all that
    effort has gone for nil.

    I have therefore decided to try a new ploy.  Seeing as how this is the
    season for the United Way campaign, it has occurred to me, as a stroke
    of genius, that I might just be able to work on the charity angle. After
    all, if there is anyone who was ever deserving of a charity lay, it has
    to be me.  I am therefore offering myself to the women of this notes
    conference as an alternative to the United Way.

    I can see certain advantages to sleeping with me over giving money to
    the United Way.  First, it wouldn't cost you anything (except for your
    self esteem, but then after all, self esteem doesn't make house
    payments.)  Second, with just one disgusting experience you can satisfy
    your altruistic needs for an entire year.

    In order to allay any fears about unintended consequences, and in light
    of the fact that many of you find the thought of sex with me utterly
    revolting, I will sweeten the pot by bringing both a condom and a barf
    bag for your personal use.  In exchange, though, I only ask that you
    show me which is which.
    
    If we do it at my place, I promise to put sheets on my bed.  They can
    even be clean sheets if you wish.  Hey, I'm easy!  My goal is to make
    this act of charity as painless as possible for you.  That's just the
    kind of guy I am, I guess.  And if you have any other preconditions that
    you would like to place on this before you'll do it, let me know!  I'm
    sure that we can work out a deal.

    I am kicking off the official campaign today. The campaign, which I call
    Mike's Annual Charity Hump Ordeal (or MACHO), will last for two weeks,
    so please respond within that time frame.  If, at the end of that time,
    no one decides to participate in the campaign, I will have to come up
    with some new plan.  I hope that doesn't happen, because I would very
    much like to make this an annual event.

    So come on!  Give it a shot!  You have nothing to lose but your dignity!

    -- Mike

    
    the barf bag is (usually) the bigger one.
    

    �and, Joe,
    
    isn't it made of thinner material? :-)

    
    do they make ribbed barf-bags?
    

    RE:315
    
    Mike,
    
    Your on! Sounds like the most romantic experience I've had in years.
    Should I post our replies in the "What's Your Cause Note?
    
    Kate

    
     RE .315
    
     Mike,
    
     Is "MACHO" a non-profit organization?  If it qualifies for Digital's
     matching funds policy, you might be able to work a 2-for-1 deal
     :^) ....
    
     Allison

    re .315, if you really like it you may want to do it more than once a
    year.
    
    I think your real problem is that you're not located in N.E. where most
    of the women are!  :-)  As John H. said, if this business of saying PC
    things in order to get laid were really true then he would be carrying an
    unfair share of the burden, since most of the women are in N.E. and
    he was the only man mentioned who doesn't live on the West Coast! :-)
    (The poor guy probably doesn't have time for anything else!)
    
    Lorna
      

>                            -< for *her* pleasure >-
>do they make ribbed barf-bags?                      
    
    Genuinely curious.......
	
    	Do ribs *really* do anything "for *her* pleasure"?
    
    Not according to any wmn I know....
    And that goes for those funny tentacled/studded items too....
    C'mon - does *anyone* rate them?
    
    'gail
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    

>                         -< More "Bang" for the buck >-

Hey!!!  I'm worth more than a buck! ;-)

re: ribbed condoms:

According to some of my more, uh, durable friends, yes, some of those
textured condoms do provide additional stimulation.  As for French
Ticklers (knobs, etc.) those also cause interesting sensations.  :-)

Mike, come on up here to the Great Northeast and we'll see what we can
work out.

D!

This is more of a "Processing" question, but... 

 Is M.A.C.H.O. defined as an FWO event????  If so, you'd better watch out for 
a couple of our more prominent male noters who feel the urge to crash any and 
every FWO event/string/discussion that they see...  (-:

					Nigel

Mike, maybe you should discuss this with employee activities, since I'm
sure others might also be interested.  In fact, consider the following
news article:


From: "Liz A. Highleyman" <[email protected]>
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 90 17:12:07 EDT
Subject: Stress relief
 
FINNS URGE SEX DAYS FOR THE STRESSED-OUT
 
(Reuter)
 
HELSINKI, Finland -- Finland's health officials are calling for
government-organized sex holidays as a cure for citizens worn down by
the stress of modern life
   ``People suffering from stress should be given the oppoportunity
of having sex holidays when they would be able to forget their worries
and concentrate on recuperating in an erotic atmosphere,'' according
to a discussion paper produced by a Health Ministry working party.
   The idea will be considered next month by heads of Finalnd's
state-financed national health service, a ministry spokesman said
Wednesday.
   ``Lack of free time and various social obligations are the main
impediments to a satisfying sex life,'' the paper said.

    Since this *is* the rathole topic...
    
    My 19 year old daughter tells me that the latest slang for condom
    is "body bag."  You heard it here first;)
    
    Barb

>    Genuinely curious.......
>    	Do ribs *really* do anything "for *her* pleasure"?


	What I want to know is, if you put it on inside out, would that
	make it "ribbed -- for *his* pleasure" ???  ( :*] )



	>>AL<<

    Um, Mike, I gave at the office....
    
    
    
    (Also, condoms are known as "party hats."  No hat, no party.)
    
        :^)    Margaret

    re: .315
    
    Mike, now you have me quaking!
    
    E Grace
    
    BTW.  Did I miss something?  What is PC?
    

    
    re 287.40
    
    
    Lorna,
    
    I for one have read every word of every note you've ever written in
    this file!!!  And quite happily so.  I appreciate how open you are
    to experiences that are different from your own, and I admire the
    way in which you call 'em like you see 'em.
    
    Justine

    Did you really Margaret??? ANyone I know?
    

I'm happy.

I live in the same area as Joe White, who clicks his heels and kisses
my hand upon occasion, and next week I get to visit Charles and DougO.

The west is the best!

Carla

    RE: .331
    
    Tamzen!  I didn't specify WHICH office, did I???  <blush>
    
        Margaret (hoist on a petard, if ever there was one  :-)

    
    but my dear carla, you live on the *east* side of the lake!
    

    re .note 39.25 >I don't remember the Bible saying "Thou shalt
    >not kill...unless"
    
    I've heard that scholars believe the correct translation to be,
    "Thou shalt not murder." In view of the code of Moses, eye for
    an eye, etc., its possible the Bible *supports* the death penalty.

actually 'an eye for an eye, ...' is from the Code of Hammurabi.

I don't believe that Moses and Hammurabi are related ...

    In the  talmudic  period  the  phrase  "An  eye  for  an  eye" was
    interpreted  as  a  maximum  punishment,  as  earlier cultures had
    allowed  punishments  that  exceeded the damage done by the crime.
    The  rabbis  spent  a  lot  of that period finding reasons to have
    punishments that were substantially less damaging. While the death
    penalty  did  exist,  it  was  rare  for it to be used, and it was
    probably used less than once per hundred years.

--David

RE. punishment not to exceed the crime ...

indeed, yes, I had heard this

which has always left me wondering why a woman who committed adultery was to be 
stoned?  and a woman who fornicated, stoned on her father's doorstep?

sex a higher crime than killing???  was this really the thinking?

  Annie

    re. .340  I too have always wondered why sex crimes are considered
    worse than murder.  What can be worse that completely destroying
    (killing) someone?  Only a sex crime AND murder. Other opinions?
    
    Jeff
    

    I've always wondered why 'adultery' was considered a crime.
    
    Were the stoning penalties applied equally to males and 
    females? Or was 'adultery' a euphemism for 'she got laid
    without {daddy's - brother's - hubby's} permission ?
    

    I don't know where the heavy penalties for adultery came from, but
    the  talmudic  rabbis made it almost impossible to convict someone
    of  adultery. The people had to be warned and then commit adultery
    with  two  credible  witnesses,  who had to witness the actual sex
    act,  and  not merely infer that it took place. With that standard
    of  proof,  there  were  almost  no convictions. 

--David

	Re: Joyce and statistics course

13.224>    My logic is I don't have to take that course there is software that
13.224>    does that work.
    
    	Precisely what my professor believed in the Stats course I just
    finished!  Which he why he emphasized how to *use* the knowledge
    and apply it to real business decisions, rather than muck with the
    calculations.  We hardly did any card problems, black and white
    and orange ball problems, etc.  We had software to crunch out all
    the numbers and formulas for us and concentrated on interpreting
    the meanings of the numbers.

    	amy

    re: 322.
    
    I hit <next unseen>, so I couldn't join the club.
    
    Nancy

    
    
    re 324.8 (DECSIM::HALL)
    
    Dale, I had no idea that you knew all the lyrics from "Kiss me Kate"
    
    J

    re why the heavy penalties for the crimes of rape and/or fornication,
    these weren't considered crimes against the woman.  these were
    considered property crimes against the men who 'owned' the women;
    those men now had the problem of 'damaged goods'.  Brownmiller's
    book  _Against Our Will: Men, Women, and Rape_ discusses this
    within the context of penalties.  Warning: its not a fun book
    to read.  Disclaimer: 'owned' is in quotes because the concept
    is barbaric to me.  But the question posed was of barbaric times.
    
    DougO

    
    
    re my fantasy coffee house... sometimes I think I would like to be
    a women's club, but usually I think of it as a very woman-centered
    space like New_Words or Modern Times (for you East Coast folks)
    where men are welcome (but only if they wear birkenstocks :-)
    It would probably be open to all most of the time with some woman-only
    events, but as I imagine it, it would mostly be frequented by women
    just because that's the kind of space it would be....  sigh.
    
    hmmmm maybe I should start thinking about this more seriously...
    
    J

  re: fantasy coffee house (does it have to be a fantasy??)

  J (Justine? is my memory correct? If not, my apologies...)

	could it also be a book store?  I recall spending LOTS of
time in a similar establishment in Palo Alto about 10 years ago.
It was a coffee house/ bookstore, where people would pick out a 
good book, good cup of coffee, and some great danish, and then
sit at the tables & browse thro the book.  I ended up buying
lots of books I would never have otherwise, 'cause I leafed
thro them long enough to get hooked.  Also, people would stop
by & chat about whether & why they had liked/ disliked any specific
book.  It was open to both sexes, but definitely had a "woman-space"
feel to it.  I loved it, I've been waiting to find a similar spot 
since I moved back to the east coast.

	Even without books, I'd go there often.  Are you sure
you don't want a second career?  'Till it becomes a huge success,
and you leave DEC behind, of course... :-)

    Friday brain-fade:  I don't even know if the topic for which I have
    been diligently searching is in WN3; it's entirely possible that it's
    in some other notesfile, nor would I argue strongly against the
    possibility of some other dimension.  
    
    Possibly the one that contains Defardadebeta (spelling?), a small burg,
    pretty far out in the Styx.  (I just read Harry Turtledove for the first 
    time, a book of his short stories, titled - if I'm lucky -
    _Kaleidoscope_ and including one story featuring Condom, the 
    Trojan - yow!)
    
    Anyway, the rat hole will have to suffice since I'm giving up on
    finding the string of notes re hunting and animal rights...  This is
    what I would have inserted there:
    
    	Robotman cartoon, one day this or last week:
    
    	He (to waitron):  I guess I'll get the cheeseburger.
    	She:  Murderer!  Must a cow die for your lunch?!
    
    	He:   Then I'll get the house salad...
    	She:  What?!  And murder the blessed fruits and plants!?
    
    	He:   OK.  How about a bowl of Cap'n Crunch with crunchberries?
    	She (to waitron): Make that two with a side order of Necco wafers.
    
    Ah me.  Considering the media reports on artificial fats, perhaps we may 
    all someday ingest without violence.  Also without flavor, I fear.
   
    aq
     

    Harry Turtledove's small burg pretty far out in the Styx is actually:
    
    	Darfurdadarbeda
    
    Don't mind me, it's just a twitch.
    
    aq
    

319.2 (Dorian Kottler)
    
>    As a result of reading books like this one, I'm thinking seriously of
>    sending my daughter to an all-women's college.

I'm curious about this - you are "sending" your daughter to college?
Isn't she "going" to college?

When I went to college I *went* to college.  i decided what I wanted to
major in.  I read the Baron's book and college literature.  I visited
various campus and thought about the pro's and con's of various schools
and what thing were important to me.  I studied for the SAT's and
achievements.  I chose the schools to apply to and wrote the essays
myself.  I chose which school to go to. Once I was there, I chose which
classes to take, what professors to study with, and when the time came,
what major I *really* wanted.

I asked advice from my mother, which she provided.  She encouraged me
one way or another about which schools to apply to/accept/etc.  And she
helped me pay for school.  for these things I am eternally grateful
but in no way did I consider her as "sending" me to college.  I was,
with her help and blessing, *going* to college.  The choices were 
entirely mine.

I had assumed it was this way for most college students.  (I met the
occasionaly ones who's lives were dictated by their parents.  Inevitably
by the end of college they rebelled.)

Is it really up to you to *send* her to a woman's college?  It seems to
me it is up to her to *go* to a woman's college, if she so-chooses, or
a co-ed school, if she so chooses.  You, as her mother, should encourage
her to do what you think is best but, ultimately, the decision is (or 
should be) hers.

D!

    When someone quotes the Bible I feel compelled to enter disclaimers.
    
    There are fundamentalists who believe and intrepret the Bible
    literally.
    
    There are other Christians who hold with the believe that the Bible was
    written many years ago and translated several times before it came to
    us.
    
    I like to tell the story about a sermon I heard at the Arch Street
    Chapel some years ago.  It was the feast of the Holy Family and one of
    the readings was a letter from Paul to the Corinthians (I think).  In
    it Paul tells the Corinthian women to 'obey their husbands'.  He goes
    on to tell the husbands to provide for their wives or some such
    nonsense.
    
    The people who attend the Arch Street Chapel are professional people
    and the community contains many successful women.  The priest left the 
    alter and walked up and down the center aisle commenting on how quiet
    the women were.  He asked if there was anything wrong...finally a
    faithful parishioner got up and said that she felt Paul's advice to the
    Corinthian women was a crock.
    
    He then said....indeed it is a crock for those of us that live in
    Boston.  Had Paul come to Arch Street Chapel he might have said
    'husbands you should do your share of the housework'.  For he was writing a
    letter, acknowleging the customs of the times.  
    
    I prefer to read these passages as an acknowledgement of the inequality
    of women...
    
    I cringe a little when this piece of literature and/or Christian
    document is quoted...I think there are very few of us that can really
    determine what a person meant when they wrote something two thousand
    years ago.

    thanks Joyce,
    
    Priests like that are a major reason why I'm still a Christian.
    
    Bonnie

    .352 -
    
    You're right, of course. I spoke in shorthand. I'll encourage her to
    consider going to a women's college.
    
    Dorian

    I think another difference between "being sent to college" and "going
    to college" is who pays in many cases.
    
    Parents who afford the expenses SEND their children to college (or so
    they put it in many cases).
    
    But students who pay a good deal of their own tuition GO to college.
    
    People who work at companies who pay for courses a few at a time "TAKE
    courses" or "GO for their masters degree".
    
    Ain't language fun?
    
    -Jody
    

	My favorite Biblical paraphrase is one I use (apply to) myself any
time I feel inclined to quote from the Bible:

	"The devil himself can quote Scripture for his own purposes."


							--D

    re 311.16
    
    Bonnie, I'd love to, but I've only electronic means to do so since she
    should be well on her way to Edinburgh right now. But we met last
    Wednesday evening, and it was real fun. She brought piccies from a
    couple of =wn= parties so now I know what y'all look like! :-)
    Then again she did catch me with her camera so she can restore the
    balance. Just hope the pics show me not too horrible (there's only
    three pics ever made of me that I like, and one of them is taken 28
    years ago ;-))! But who knows, maybe I'll ever be able to attend a =wn=
    party some day. It was great meeting her! :-)
    
    Ad
    

    >> (whatever it is that comes out of
    >> grenades when they explode -- please tell me in the rathole :-).

    
    and to think that I've seen every MASH episode at least 3 times.

    
    
    re .361
    
    But Eagle -- when you walk in the door, and all those women turn
    and look at you...
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    they won't be holding rifles :-)
    
    
    Justine
    
    ps (probably)

But, er, um, in this combination bath house/book store, won't the books get
awfully soggy??????

				Nigel

    
    re:.364 (Nigel Conliffe)
    
    > But, er, um, in this combination bath house/book store, won't the
    > books get awfully soggy??????
    
    Justine and D!, this _is_ something to consider, and I have a 
    soggy HP-16C manual to prove it!  (it was a bday present from
    my mom and dad during high school, and I was reading the manual
    in a bubble bath :-)  
    
    And Justine, I wouldn't be holding a _rifle_, that's so gauche...
    An H&K P7 M8 would be much more appropriate for the purpose of
    defending all the naked women in the hot tubs :-).
    
    Next time I see ya, I'll have to explain how you can judge the
    character of a police office by what they carry :-).
    
    							nancy b.
    

Soggy books are not a problem - the bookstore/reading room is in a seperate
part of the house, and you have to dry off (one of the the big fluffy white
turkish cotton towels provided) before you go in.

The logical extension of this whole coffee-house/bath-house idea is a sort
of *resort* or *spa* for women.  A bit of woman-space with all sorts of
woman-oriented things under one (or a couple nearby) roofs.  Sounds wonderful
to me!

D!

[PS: The Management (me) reserves the right to refuse service to anyone.]

    
    Maybe we should buy a small house with lots of rooms and start laying
    the tile for the spa and installing the speakers for the music room,
    and the bookshelves for the reading room.....
    
    Justine
    

	re: -< now all we need are investors >-


    I'd be willing to invest.....  maybe we should sell shares or
    start it as a collective or something.....  it can't be a worse
    investment than dec stock, now can it...   ;-)

    should we start up another list???

    m    

    
    i'll invest (what meagre sums i have) as long as i can visit.
    

    And a room with a hardwood floor (and roll-up mats) and a wall of
    mirrors so anyone who is involved with any form of dance or physical
    fitness/aerobics thing or martial art can practice at their leisure....
    also performances or classes could be given there!
    
    -Jody
    
    p.s.  there is a cool bookstore/coffeehouse on the West side of
    Worcester (in Tatnuck Square?  I forget) which I always enjoy going to
    - and they keep "browse books" on shelves over the small tables in the
    coffeehouse section too - and comment cards elasticked to the front so
    you can read what people thought of the book when they read it (either
    browsing or if they actually bought it).....neat stuff!
    

    Oh yes, the Tatnuck Bookseller....I visit it weekly.  I've spent
    hours at a time there, writing papers for school.
    
    It also has a good collection of books :-).
    
    Maia
    

Note 303.48                  Signing up for THE LIST                    48 of 48
CAESAR::GASSAWAY "Insert clever personal name here"   7 lines  27-AUG-1990 14:39
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    If jonathan's going to be on the list, then i want to be on it too.
    
	hmmmm......gonna have to re-consider being on the list now.....
    	(personal safety related reasons)
        
    and you just wait, jonathan, i'll get you back.  you and your stupid
    card games...........
    
    	me and MY stupid card games?  it is eric's game!  now, if we had
    	used MY game, things might have been a little bit different, as
    	mine has not been used yet, so it would have been more difficult
    	to guess who had 25 million population cards.....but that wasn't
    	really much of a factor, seeing as YOU started out the game with
    	most of them!  heck, if you had even bothered to hit the other
    	two ONCE!  just ONCE! i would have stopped attacking you, and you
    	would have been able to use your missiles, and you probably would
    	have survived.
    
    	don't blame personal vendettas & poor strategy on a stupid game...
    
    	by the way, next time you want to have a nuclear war, give me
    	a call....... (so i can slip the Civil Defense card up my sleeve)
    
    lisa/too lazy for capitals today
    
    	jonathan/too lazy for capitals.

    Hey jonathan......know where you can stick your game........
    
    

	re: lisa and jonathan

	now, now, you too.  i was the first one out in both games.

	and here i was thinking that two 25ks was good.  next time
	i cheat like jonathan does.

	kath_following_suit

    jonathan always cheats.
    
    cheater.
    
    Lisa

    HEY!
    
    I did *NOT* cheat!  if anything, i think the two females participating
    in the game did what was closest to cheating in basically not hitting
    each other, ganging up and trying to knock the males out of the game
    first.  the spirit of the game is everyone for hirself, no holds
    barred, winner take all, and if you are going down, take a few million
    of the enemy with you!
    
    so basically, a couple of worthless slugs started out the game with
    under 50 million in population, took on two women (each with over
    50 mil), and knocked the big countries out first?  maybe next time
    you will believe me when i say that spreading out your damage is
    better than trying to kill just one opponent.......
    
    (or maybe women should simply not be in charge of nuclear arsenals?)
    
    jonathan (who fears he is now a primary target, no matter who else
    plays with us in the future)
    
    (who also sticks his game in his car, ready for a war at a moments
    notice)
    

    uuummmm.....errrrrr....did I miss something? (Wouldn't be the first 
    time (*:)  What game?
    
    E

    a card game that teaches the futility of nuclear war....some people
    might consider it sick, but then there are people like me who already
    know that nuke war is futile, but find a sort of sick humor in the
    game.
    
    players start out with a number of population cards (1, 2, 5, 10, and
    25 million people....1 is most common, only 6 25's in the game),
    and some nuclear war cards (mixture of secrets, spies, propaganda,
    bombs, delivery systems, and a few defense systems).
    
    after war is declared (by dropping a bomb on someone) propaganda is
    useless, so one cannot pump up their population by stealing from
    others.  peace can be restarted if EVERY player agrees to it, making
    propaganda useful again, but it doesn't last long.  when a player
    is knocked out of the game, that player is permitted to launch
    everything held in hand (final strike)....unless the player loses
    all population during peacetime, in which case the soldiers desert
    the missile silos.  usually everybody gets worn down until one is
    knocked out, followed by a final strike, which knocks another out,
    another final strike, and so on, until everybody is dead.  basically
    patterned after what is expected in a real nuke war.  sometimes a
    person gets lucky, and has a couple million in population left at
    the end of the final strikes, in which case that individual is now
    the Supreme Ruler of the Rubble....uh....Planet!
    
    you can find Nuclear War and the sequel Nuclear Escalation in most
    hobby shops.
    
    

>    you can find Nuclear War and the sequel Nuclear Escalation in most
>    hobby shops.


	...and it's the most fun when you combine the two :*]



	>>AL<<

    
    In light of current events in the middle east, talk of War Games
    for fun frightens me.
    
    Justine

>    In light of current events in the middle east, talk of War Games
>    for fun frightens me.
    
    Justine, that's what is interesting about the game.  Very very rarely
    does anyone win.  Eric won the game that jonathan, lisa and i are talking
    about.....but he only had one million people left....the LOWEST
    population card there was....so, basically, he really didn't "win"
    either.


	Most definitely makes you think about the futility of nuke war.

	kath

    That's what makes that game such fun; it is basically a satire on
    nuclear warfare, and is not meant to be taken seriously.

    -- Mike

    One person's 'fun' is another person's 'distasteful'.
    

    re: .384
    
    i totally agree.  even in the best of times, some people
    will not enjoy the negative humor implied by the game.
    
    although i personally don't consider it a "low sense of fun"
    
    jonathan (who also keeps bubbles in his office)
    

    It was just this game, which I will probably not play again.....I have
    better things to do than be humiliated.  =)
    
    And is it any worse than Risk, or some other type of "conquer the
    world" game?
    
    Lisa

    The point of the game, as I see it, is that there are no winners in a
    nuclear war--only losers.  The rules of the game are designed to
    illustrate this.  The 'distastefulness' of the game perfectly reflects
    the distastefulness of nuclear war itself, which, in this age, is a
    point that needs to be made as often as possible.

    -- Mike

    
    If it teaches about the futility of war, then I'm all for it.  I was
    just getting nervous hearing folks joke about how they were gonna
    "nuke 'em" or whatever (I hate those NUKE the Duke bumper stickers,
    for example, and not just because I'm a democrat).  I just have
    a hard time joking about war.  But it sounds like I missed the context
    of it, and I pictured a grownup version of little boys pretending to
    shoot people with their cap guns....
    
    Justine

    re .387, but if the point of the game is the distastefulness of nuclear
    war then how come when people play the game they appear to be having a
    lot of fun?  And, there *is* always a winner in the *game* isn't there? 
    Which, seems to me, might make people think there could be a winner in a
    nuclear war!  (Maybe some people just don't find the thought of a
    limited nuclear war "distasteful" as long as they think they won't get
    killed?)
    
    I tried to strangle my brother-in-law once over a Risk game, when he
    took my country! :-)
    
    Lorna
    

    Well, I can't speak for why other people might enjoy the game, but I
    enjoy it because the game strikes me as intentional silliness, while at
    the same time reflecting a more serious undertone.  The silliness of
    the game, to me, simply reflects the absurdity of nuclear war.

    Then again, maybe I'm the only person who sees it that way.  I haven't
    played the game in at least five years, but at the time the satire on
    the futility of nuclear war seemed apparent.  Perhaps that was only
    because I was superimposing my own interpretation, though.  I was
    involved in the nuclear freeze movement at the time, and as a result my
    perceptions of the game may have been colored by my own anti-nuclear
    outlook.  

    -- Mike

    re .390, well, that's an interesting explanation.  I don't have
    anything against intentional silliness.
    
    Lorna
    

    
    hmmm.........to repeat what mike v said, the game itself is silly,
    and tries to show the absurdity of nuclear war.  lorna asked if there
    is a "winner", seeing as it is a game.  sometimes there is, but those
    times are usually flukes, and an unwritten rule is that in case there
    IS a winner, the next game s/he is the very first person to be bombed
    out of existance (because the person is considered too dangerous to
    be left on the planet)
    
    of all the times that i have played the game, i would estimate that
    a person had survivors less than 25% of the time.  and even then, i
    personally feel that the percentage should be dropped, considering
    that Skippy the Supervirus was out, and the survivor did NOT have the
    SuperSerum to protect the population.  therefore, in my mind, even
    the survivors would have died from diseases left after the war.
    
    by the way, lorna, this game is aimed at global thermonuclear warfare.
    it has nothing to do with a limited nuke war (which is an imaginary
    beast, anyways.)
    
    oh, and lisa, you going to stand on your record of not being
    able to kill me once?  [sound of evil laughter....HAHAHAHAHA.......]
    
    jonathan (who loves to tease)
    

    re .-1:  Just because you were a cheerleader doesn't guarantee that
    you're attractive.  I've seen some pretty ugly cheerleaders in my
    time...
    
    It's all in the eye of the beholder.

    Uh, excuse me, but who cares what a person looks like.  Your note
    sounds VERY shallow!  I mean, not trusting someone just because they're
    ugly or pretty?!  PULEASE!!  the only reason I would distrust someone
    is if they gave me a reason to distrust them!!!
    
    Oh, and I agree with Kristy.  Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. 
    Besides, it's what's inside that counts.  An "ugly" person to your
    standards could very easily be a BEAUTIFUL person on the inside.  As
    well as a "pretty" person by your standards could be ugly as sin on the
    inside!
    
    Come on!!  Quit being so nieve!!
    
    Holly
    

    
    	RE: .93  Holly
    
    	The reference to not trusting ugly people wasn't serious - it
    	was a response to some comments people made elsewhere here that
    	they didn't trust attractive people.
    
    	It was her "Hot Button" - it was the way she was expressing her
    	frustration at the other statement.
    

    Excuse the **** out of me.  
    
    I just spent a few minutes in this file and saw *several* noters
    discussing how "they don't trust attractive people".  Give me a break. 
    The whole point of my note was to say that the tables can turn all
    ways.  Publically stating that you don't trust attractive folks is
    okay, I guess.  Saying you don't trust ugly people isn't.
    
    Attractive is in the eye of the beholder, and so is ugly.
    
    This is my hot button and I am entitled to it.

    and you can have it. :)

    Thanks, Susan
    
    That is what I meant.  But I guess I have heard so much garbage lately
    I am not coming across clearly.  
    
    

    Sue, I didn't see any smiley face.  You're obviously upset.  I was just
    kidding around with Mez when I replied to her about not trusting
    attractive people, and I did include a smiley face.  Also, I didn't say
    I didn't trust *attractive* people - I said I didn't trust *extremely*
    attractive people until I got to know them.   And, I was really
    kidding.  I recognize it as an initial reaction in myself but I try not
    to abide by it.   Also, by extremely attractive I was talking about on
    the level of a Kim Basinger, Mel Gibson, Robert Redford variety,and I
    hardly ever see anybody that cute in real life.  Besides, some of my
    best friends are very attractive.  And, some of them aren't very
    attractive at all but I like them anyway. :-)
    
    I do think that people can be considered attractive without falling
    into the category of being such extreme beauties that people would
    distrust them for it.  
    
    Another thought is that physical beauty has meant so much in our
    society and many doors have opened just because of it, and some of 
    these people have not had to learn other skills.  Other people have had
    to deal with these people,and that's where the prejudice comes from.
    
    Lorna
    

    re .91:
    
    It must be tough to be so attractive.
    
    

    Well, I guess i internalized some of that and read right over the
    smiley face.  This does hit some issues for me, and I had a knee-jerk
    response.  
    
    I have spent half my life responding to "What's a pretty girl like you
    doing [insert whatever here]".  And I have had my intellegence,
    competence, and skill challenged more times than I care to remember.  I
    have been called a Dumb Blonde (I'm not a blonde anymore, so I don't
    hear this that often), ABNB (AllBoobsNoBrains), and lots of other
    things that attach my worth squarely on how I look.   My guidance
    counselor in high school told me I could go to any school I wanted to;
    not because I had good SAT's and a well rounded acedemic record, no, he
    told me I could "husband hunt" anywhere.  Since as of late I have been
    rather sensitive about everything, I reacted to the comments that
    weren't intended in seriousness.  
    
    
    

    re: 338.50s and 60s......
    
    what is this about black leather?  the only black leather that
    i have is a jacket, and that is for winter wear.  (i know that
    i might talk about it a lot, but i don't have anything else 
    beyond that.....YET)  
    
    also, about me having light brown hair.....i must confess that that
    was not me present at the innervisions party.  my innervision
    has bleach blonde hair, to reflect my appearance while a child.
    
    the brown that people see in my hair is actually from mushrooms.
    i need more sunlight.  
    
    jonathan
    

    How about white paint?
    
    Lisa

    re .405, .406, that's right.  White paint.  He can paint the
    classically handsome features onto his face!
    
    Lorna
    

    
    mushrooms grow in the dark.....okay, so a cleanroom is not really
    dark, and neither is an environmental lab, but most days i could
    not tell you the weather if asked.
    
    as for white paint.....no, i won't paint my hair white.....i prefer
    blue (to match my eyes), following that with black, orange, red,
    and green.  did silver once.  oh, and all those colors are NOT at
    the same time.
    
    about painting handsome features on my face......how does one
    paint high cheeckbones?  (not paint ones that are present, but
    create ones that do not exist?)
    
    jonathan (a/k/a blank_face)
    

�    about painting handsome features on my face......how does one
�    paint high cheeckbones?  (not paint ones that are present, but
    
    A little dark blush underneath can do wonders.  Or do like Very Young
    Bands do and suck in your cheeks.  Or become a heroin addict.
    
    Ray

    jonathan and ray
    
    you are both nice looking young men ....
    
    my biggest problem is that I feel like you are my sons' age.
    
    :-) X 100
    
    bonnie

    Waaall, we don't feel like you're our mothers' age...
    
    (*two roguishly leering tongue-in-cheek clucks*)
    
    (Hmm, hard to do sound effects in notes, but at least that last line
    wouldn't be a bad personal name...)
    
    (: >,)
    
    Ray

    in re Ray
    
    merci!
    
    BJ

    You charmer, Ray.......
    
    =)
    
    
    Lisa

    >> were the stoning penalties applied equally to males and ...
    	According to Mosaic Law: Yes.  The issue wasn't permission, it was
    inheritance.  

    Re: Bonnie, remember "it takes a younger man, to drive away those
    middle age blues" :*).

    According to a line from "The middle age blues boogie". "no more
    sweeping the floors, I've got a brand new vacuum cleaner. My younger
    man sucks it up sweeter". The proof is left to the student. liesl

    liesl
    
    :-) X 100 I hope you are speaking from direct and recent experience!
    100 X 100
    
    Bonnie

    re: .415, 416
    
    .................................................
    
    

    G'day,
     But remember too, old fiddles can still play a merry tune ;-)
    
    
    derek

    speaking as an up and coming Strad, I hope you're right ! ;)
    
    -Jody
    

    As they say,
    
    "You're only as old as who you're feeling."
    
    This doesn't have to be taken as a naughty comment, but it can be.
    
       :^)   Margaret

    Speaking of Calvin and Hobbes, there is one question that has been
    troubling me for the last five years or so.  Is Hobbes really a magical
    talking tiger who turns back into a stuffed animal whenever other
    people are around?  Or is it all just a figment of Calvin's
    imagination?  I really want to believe that Hobbes is real, but then
    again maybe that's just my INFP personality showing through.  :-)
    
    Come to think of it, maybe Calvin is just a figment of Hobbes's
    imagination.
    
    -- Mike

>Is Hobbes really a magical
>    talking tiger who turns back into a stuffed animal whenever other
>    people are around?  Or is it all just a figment of Calvin's
>    imagination?  

Some questions, Mike, are not meant to be answered.

It would spoil to magic to know.

D!

    re:.421
    
    	� Is Hobbes really a magical talking tiger who turns
    	back into a stuffed animal whenever other people are
    	around?  Or is it all just a figment of Calvin's
    	imagination? �
    
    Yes.
    
    --- jerry

    .422,
    
    Exactly, it doesn't really matter either way.
    
    Alf

    in re previous
    
    yes

    Of course Hobbes is.
    
    What I want to know is, how does Calvin remain a kid year after
    year?  I tried my darndest to stay seven years old and it didn't
    work at all. Maybe it's the super suger slugger cereal???    
    
       Margaret

    Margaret, those of us who have been reading comic books for over 5
    years, (since 1956 for me) know that fictional characters have their
    own secret way of avoiding aging and they ain't telling. Lois Lane and
    Superman have been 29 since 1938, for example.
    
    Mike, Hobbs is whatever you desire hime to be. I, personally, want to
    believe that he is alive and that Spaceman Spiff is real also.
    
    Phil (another INFP)

    re: .426
    
    damn!  i've been eating Sugar Frosted Chocolate Bombs since i
    saw that illustrious brand mentioned in the paper a few years
    ago.....looks like i grabbed the wrong brand?
    
    jonathan (xx going on 7)
    

    Jonathan,
    
    I think you've got the brand right. I was just faking it 'cause
    I couldn't remember.
    
    Let me know if it works.  :^)
    
      Margaret

Chocolate Frosted Sugar Bombs, I think.



Jim another Calvin & Hobbes fan

    re: 356.20 /[set hidden]
    
    well, my curiousity is piqued, but i'm afraid to ask.....
    
    jonathan (who is probably more innocent than his notes lead others to
    believe)
    
    p.s. thanks .430, i knew it was something like that.  but by the
    time i finish my fourth bowl, my eyes are usually crossed, and i
    cannot focus on anything closer than 5 feet....
    

    re: .431
    
    Don't bother getting even your curiosity up.  If I remember correctly
    it (356.20) was, as we say in my house, "rude, lude and socially 
    unacceptable".
    
    Nancy ;-)
    

    Thanks to those of you who have replied in this file and through mail
    to my "I hate..." comments about Laura's mono diagnosis.  Some of your 
    suggestions I'm going to pass on (apple slices with peanut butter, for
    instance).  Other's have inspired me to do a bit more checking into the
    topic.  Obviously not all doctors agree on the proper treatment or on
    how communicable mono is.  Sure hope the school and professors are
    understanding about this kind of thing.  I'd sure hate for her to lose
    her scholarships!!!!
    
    Karen

    	RE: .433
    
    	When I took my daughter in for the initial visit, I told
    	the doctor that she was in the middle of finals. He said,
    	"She shouldn't take any finals!" Period. And, we were
    	leaving at the end of the week for a visit with my parents.
    
    	I called Nashua High, talked to a secretary, who said my
    	daughter's principal (there are 5) would call me.
    
    	Some background: My daughter's principal and I had an
    	incident back in 1989 wherein we almost came to blows.
    	I assumed it was going to be another "scene," albeit on
    	the phone.
    
    	When he called, he was concerned. I said, "The doctor said
    	it's mono and that my daughter should not take her finals.
    	I'm going on vacation Saturday. Can we set up a time after
    	we return?"
    
    	Principal: This has happened before. She doesn't have to
    	take any more finals. We'll grade her on her work up to
    	the time of the finals."
    
    	Needless to say, I was very appreciative.
    
    	Scott 

    Bonnie, stop that!
    
    E Grace

    
    re .303, Sara:
    
    If you think Massachusetts is so good, why'd you move out to
    Vermont two months ago?!  :-)
    

    Ellen:
    
    Vermont is a longtime dream.  I'll let you know if it comes true or
    lets down! :-)
    
    and I didn't say Mass is so great, only that it's not so horrible!  I
    don't have to hate it to like somewhere else too...
    

    re: .100
    
    What's the CLT petition?  
    
    --bonnie

re .-1

CLT stands for Citizens for Limited Taxzation and they have a petition that
will be on the Nov. ballot.  If passed, taxes, fines and fees will be rolled
back to what they were in 1988(? I think that's the year.)  It is a sign that
Mass. citizens are fed up with the way the government has been run and are not
taking it anymore.  Some contend that it is a drastic move.  Others agree,
but say that it will send a message to the government that things must change.

-Hamp 

    As a Massachusetts-er? -an? born-and-bred, I admit to a soft spot
    in my heart for the state. And now I've discovered some concrete
    reasons why. For those of you who call that state "Taxachusetts",
    come on out to California. You ain't seen nothin.
    
    You think there's traffic in Mass? Ha.
    
    --DE
    

    
    With all these notes around regarding U.S. politics and elections and
    such.......would anyone be kind enough to enter a brief "Beginners
    Guide to U.S. Politics" for me?
    
    I'm just after a broad, impersonal outline of how the system works....
    
    Or please point me to a topic somewhere in this conference or
    another....
    
    'gail

    There used to be a 'Government' notesfile but I'm not sure
    it's still around. The US has governments at the Federal,
    State, County and Local levels. (Too much IMHO). The chief
    executive of the Federal is the President, STates have
    Governors, counties have (?) and cities and towns may have 
    Mayors, Boards, Councils or whatever. Each State is represented
    at the Federal level, in a two-house Congress, by two Senators 
    and a number of Representatives determined by population. 
    
    Most of the discussion here is around the position of Governor 
    of the Commonwealth (state) of Massachusetts. The current
    Governor, Michael Dukakis, is retiring. 
    

    addendum to .444 The current election (to take place on
    Tuesday, Sept. 18) is called a 'primary' wherein the two 
    principal parties select their candidates for office for 
    the general elections held in November.

    
    Something about Sara's 379 bothers me.  Lots of people say it,
    Sara - it's not just you :-)
    
    It's the phrase, "I'm not a joiner."  I cringe.  It sounds too PC
    to "not be a joiner", but I just can't say I'm not a joiner.  Just
    look at this list of organizations that I'm proud to belong to!
    I'm *sooooooo* non-PC to be a "joiner"!!
    
    
    Nature Conservancy (life member!)
    National Audubon Society
    Massachusetts Audubon Society
    Sierra Club
    Sierra Club Legal Defense Fund
    Wilderness Society
    Greenpeace
    World Wildlife Fund
    Environmental Defense Fund
    National Wildlife Federation
    Appalachian Mountain Club
    Environmental Lobby of Massachusetts
    Sudbury Valley Trustees
    Mohonk Preserve
    Rails-To-Trails Conservancy
    American Youth Hostels
    Boston Area Bicycle Coalition
    American Civil Liberties Union
    National Abortion Rights Action League
    Association for Computing Machinery
    Society of Women Engineers
    
    There's probably a couple of others than I've missed too.
    

    hmmm.  I guess I join some things too... the list:
    
    the Girl Scouts (Tracy)
    The Nature Conservancy ($)
    The Wilderness Society ($)
    Aids Action Committee ($)
    public tv/radio, but not since they started harrassing me for $
       something like 5x per year, each, and being self-righteous about it
       (Them:"you haven't given since Sept!" me:"of what year?" them:"1989"
        me:"it's Feb 1990!!!!!")
    
    I don't belong to: NOW, any organized religious organization, any
    chorus, amateur theatre, the 'Y', a health club, any political
    party,...
    
    I guess I wouldn't count groups, including those on my 'no' list, you
    (generic) join for furtherance of shared interest (not exactly a
    technical description, I'll admit), as having a PC-index.  But I tend
    to not join even groups I agree with...
    
    maybe girls join sororities to be their (or someone's ;'0) version of
    PC...
    
    
    

    "Taxachusetts" is a misnomer. In fact, Massachusetts has one of the
    LOWEST tax rates either in the eastern seaboard or the country.
    (I can't remember which it is.)
    
    Scapegoating is one of the more persistent and disgusting 
    instances of groupthink.
    
    Eileen

    and before people start yelling "no way" about .448, let me say that
    the property taxes in Vt are significantly higher than what I paid in
    Ma.  Like, an equiv house in roughly equiv towns, at least 1K higher,
    more in the ritzy towns, but not less in the less ritzy towns!
    
    I'm going by the taxes shown on MLS sheets describing property for sale

    
    re:.443
    my dear abigail, i thought we'd gone over this? or did the lipstick
    erase it from your mind? we have a president (read boss). we have a
    legislature (read committees). we have judges (read semi-impartial
    referees). we have fifty states, each of which has their own president
    (called governor), legislature, judges. each state has counties (except
    alaska and louisiana which have parishes) each of which has its own
    president, legislature, judges. we get to vote for just about all of
    these. with all of these choices, it is fortunate that we only have
    two political parties, neither of which is as liberal as mrs.
    thatcher's.
    

    RE: .448
    
    	I do believe that with the last round of tax increases it
    make Massachusetts the second highest taxed state in the union,
    if it wasn't for bad luck those of us that live in taxachusetts
    wouldn't have any luck at all. 

re: 13.339

	Duct Tape is *not* Gaffer's Tape.  Give me a roll of good Gaffer's
over Duct Tape any time.  Gaffer's is cloth-based, and usually black.

						--D

    Gaffer's tape can also be grey --
    
    Duct tape may hold the Universe together, but gaffer's tape really
    does hold the entertainment industry together!
    
    					andrew

    Yes, but have you been a grippee? 
    
    :-)
    
    Nanci

    On occasion -- but gentlefolk never "grip and tell."
    
    					andrew

	I've never used anything but black gaffer's, but I seem to remember
seeing it in colors in catalogs.  It's probably like refrigerators - colors
$10 extra ;-)

	I've also been a grip, stage manager, assistant TD, ... but unlike 
Andrew, I never made a living at it.


					--Doug
					  currently "Lighting Consultant"
					  to the Walpole Footlighters
					  fall show "Graceland" and now
					  I've doubled my rates...

    Two beers?  Two sets of acquaintances can ransack the wardrobe?
    
    						Ann B.

    RE:  13.349
    
    Rug burns, Mike?  We're not back to 
    
    
    
    5 is your limit, are we?
    
    E Grace

    Actually, E, as far as I can tell, rug burns are the reason why God
    invented beds.  :-)
    
    As a result, my limit is significantly less than five when a rug is
    involved.
    
    -- Mike

    Just in case anyone was wondering, anecdotus interruptus is the
    situation that occurs when someone alludes to a potentially interesting
    and intimate story about their personal life, and then says, "but I
    don't know you well enough to do into details."

    -- Mike

re: .458  (Ann)

	Yes.

    anyone want to pledge $$ to cover the plane fare so that E Grace
    and Mike can meet? I can manage $5.00.
    
    :-) X 100
    
    Bonnie

    
    i'll match bonnie's pledge ;^)
    

    ditto

    count me in too.

    Here's another $5.
    
    Karen

    Me too . . .
    
    --bonnie

    That's $30...
    
    how much do we need?
    
    :-)

    
    Me too.  :-)
    
    CQ

    count me in for $5
    
    okay, next question, do they get to fly, or do they take a train,
    or a bus?  also......are we covering for dinner and a motel as
    well?  (hey, the one doing the visiting has to sleep SOMEwhere....
    i'm not saying that BOTH will be staying in the motel......)
    
    one more question......what is the correct spelling for the word
    when you don't know what the name of an object is.........
    thingy, or thingie?
    

    I'll contribute $5.00, too, but it has nothing to do with E Grace
    :-)....I want to meet him myself!  (although I certainly don't mind if
    E Grace winds up benefiting from my $5. in a *different* way!)  :-)
    
    Lorna
    

Hey, if I gave 5 bucks, would it be tax deductible?

-Hamp

    Of course, my meeting him, too, depends on flying *him* out here!  If
    we fly her out there, I'll *still* contribute, but I did want to meet
    him, too!  
    
    Lorna
    

    RE: 472
    
    thingum
    
    RE: the rest of you
    
    I never saw a computer screen *blush*!
    
    \*8
    
    E Grace

    If he comes out here, I'll donate my living room . . . for a party
    so everyone can meet him.  Plenty of room for sleeping bags, too,
    if he needs a place to sleep
    
    --bonnie

    Where do I send my $5.00 to. There must be an E Grace/Mike meeting fund
    we can contribute to and is it tax deductable.
    
    Phil

    I already met him.  He'd be well worth the trip!
    
    -Jody
    

    I smell a rat - I think the women are only contributing because they
    hope that with #1 gone, 2-5 are still available. And the men contribute
    to get him out of the way.
    
    Am I glad that I am on the other side of the pond.
    
    Btw, I'll donate $5 towards it for educational purposes (mine)
    
    regs,Heinrich

    Heinrich,
    
    But Mike is in Colorado and all those pledging to date are on the 
    east coast!
    
    and since I brought it up, I guess I'll accept the pledges.
    
    Bonnie

    RE .472 thingamabob
     aka whatchamacallit, whoosis, allamagoosa

    re: .482
    
    are you with the People's Front of Berkshire?
    or the Berkshire People's Front?
    

Sure, make it $5 here.  $10 if I get to watch.  $15 if I get to videotape.
A whopping $30 if I get the rights to sell the videotapes.  :-)

D!

    
    I'll contribute $5 too.  Mr. Valenza is well worth meeting!
    
    Carla
    

    hey, when are we going to clear this rathole out of the
    rathole topic, and move it to the events topic?
    
    and when is this event going to happen?
    
    i am also willing to match D!'s pledge of $10 if i get to watch!
    
    jonathan, member of the "Let's Embarass E and MV" committee
    

    
    so carla, how can we get these fine people to pay for *us* to go
    back east?
    

    re .486 E might be embarassed but MV likely won't (unless 
    he can't answer the bell for round 5 :-) )

    
    Joe,
    
    Flirt shamelessly ... !  Now, to find some willing recipients.
    
    (We could always mention Twister night at the Wildrose.)
    
    Carla
    

    Well, SINCE THIS IS THE RATHOLE topic...
    
    I must have missed something - I'm willing to donate $5 for each party
    (E Grace/Mike V) however...  why is everyone wanting to see these two
    get together, and why do we need a referee?
    
    In_the_dark,
    Gale

    re .487, Why, Joe, I'd volunteer 10 bucks to get you back on the East
    Coast again! :-)  And, Carla, well, I've been dying to meet her for
    ages.....this could get expensive!  :-)
    
    Lorna
    

    Carla, are you suggesting that there has been some shameless flirting
    going on in this notes conference?
    
    -- Mike

    Gale
    
    They've been flirting with each other ;-)
    
    Both in this and other notes files..
    
    So we started teasing them...
    
    Bonnie

    Oh,...  I see now....
    
    I thought their was only ONE Mike flirting all over the net right now 
    (sorry, I couldn't resist Mike Z!)
    
    Gale

I thought it had something to do with rug burn therapy ...

    or.....
    
    to be more explicit.....
    
    mike v had his MACHO campaign dying, then E breathed new life
    to it........now we are calling her bluff....tee hee hee hee.....
    
    or maybe his bluff?  or both?
    
    does it really matter?  sounds like a great excuse to party to me!
    
    ;-)
    

  It is with respect that as one of Mike's team mates, I too must 
  contribute $5.00 to "the cause" for MV & E, however, he must have
  all of his calls closed prior to his departure.  Team rule.

  (BTW Mike, just HOW did you get the rug burns on the forehead?)

  Kenn

	Personally, I think Ann Broomhead is a spy ;-)

					--D

    RE: .480
    
    I match Heinrich's $5.00 for the M_V & E Grace fund. Humm, thats
    about $60 by now! 
    
    Heinrich, why don't you send over some Spungli truffles for the 
    couple?   Money is useful but chocolate is the food of love, or
    at least of flirtation.   
     
    Margaret
    (Heinrich, fillen danke for all those MANY pounds of chocolates
    your brought to me!!!)  
    

    
    my dear carla, if you'd *asked* me to play twister i most certainly
    would have complied...
    

    Me, Doug?!  In *this* lifetime?
    
    						Ann B.
    
    P.S.  Oh, that must be why I've been carrying around this extra
    five dollar bill.  Sure, Mike can use it.

    Flirting???!!!!
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!SHAMELESSLY?!?!?!?!?!?!
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    How *could* you?     sniff, weep, tear, tear.
    
    
    
    
    
    
    Oh.  And *I* didn't breathe new life into his MACHO campaign, Mike 
    was using a BELLOWS on it!
    
    
    {-:
    
    E Grace

    What's shameful about flirting?  The only way to do it correctly
    is shamelessly.
    
    --bonnie

    re .504, well, it *can* be dangerous to flirt shamelessly in public as
    some people sometimes find out.  :-)
    
    Lorna
    

    Well, there's danger and then there's danger . . . 
    
    And by the way, Steve, did I ever tell you I like that feather you
    had in your hat the night you came to the party?  <wink> <wink>
    
    --bonnie

	I see the issue of "Freedom of Speech" as the same issue as
	"Freedom of Choice" - they both are ways that one expresses
	ones beliefs through actions that one makes personally.

	Translation:  I express my self (my beliefs) from a soapbox
	on the corner of Elm and Main streets - no one else can do
	that for me and it still be my right to freedom of speech.

	I express my self (my beliefs) by choosing to birth a child
	or to not birth a child from my body - on one else can do
	that for me and it still be my right to choose. 

	_peggy

    
    I keep wondering what my therapist will say when I tell her that people
    in WOMANnotes are taking up a collection so that a man and a woman who
    have been electronically flirting about his sexual prowess can meet...
    
    
    sigh... some days I feel like the planet I'm on doesn't spin in the
    same direction as the one everyone else is on.
    
    Justine

    .508 I don't mind sending my money for a "worthy cause". Fun is the
    worthiest cause I can think of. This has been the most fun going in a
    long time. Bonnie, if this is all a put on, then please take my money,
    which I really did send you, and donate it to truly worthy cause you
    would like. Even if it's to feed your cats. (if you have cats) Cat's
    are pretty worthy too.
    
    Phil

    Re:509 your therapist would tell you to get a new job and get far, far,
    away from this notesfile....
    
    REK

    I'll contribute, too, Bonnie, but on another perhaps related topic,
    I just found out that Barbara Bazemore and Marty Jack are married
    to each other. (Why doesn't anyone ever tell me anything?) What a
    couple!  I hope you guys feel obligated to reproduce! What the
    world needs is more little Martys and Barbaras. And since you live
    in this area, I volunteer to babysit.
    
    Eileen
    

    re .370, I think the number is 0.
    
    Lorna
    

    
    	RE: last
    
    	Sorry, 13.369 was taken out of context. Perhaps to understand
    	the context and my anger better you may want to read MENNOTES 
    	note 511.15. 
    
	It is OK to question the number, but not in the context of "women
    	lie and innocent men get hurt" when discussing rape. The numbers
    	are just the opposite. 
    
    	-Erik 
    

    re .516 If it were one or five or ten, it would still be an
    extremely small fraction of all rape cases. Saying that this
    infinitesimal amount invalidates all rape convictions is 
    dirt-poor logic. 

	edp - it's all part of the "greater good" argument.

	If you agree that justice as applied by any human court is inherently
imperfect, then the job (and in my mind, the priority order) is to:

	1) excercise justice in a manner that is the least unfair to the 
		least number of people

	2) work towards making it as perfect as it can be, correcting mistakes
		in part 1 whenever possible.

	For years, we haven't (especially in the case of rape) been doing
very well on point 1 at all.  And for every male who's been screwed over
by a woman manipulating the system, there's probabaly 100 women who've been
screwed by the system trying to protect the men. (Please don't quibble with
the numbers - I think the odds of conviction that Nancy B cites often make
those figures more than reasonable.)

	The folks in here aren't forgetting the 1 male, they're just trying
to fight for the 100 females in the name of reducing the unfairness.

						--Doug

    I think that what edp is reacting to is Lorna's comment in .514:
    
    	� I think the number is 0. �
    
    which is demonstrably false (sorry, Lorna). There was a case from a
    few years back that an alleged rape victim confessed that she lied,
    after the convicted perp spent quite some time in prison.
    
    The number is statistically extremely small, no doubt, but it's also
    very definitely non-zero. I vehemently object to the argument that
    because it happens in some cases, *all* cases should be held suspect.
    But to claim that it never happens is as wrong as claiming that it
    always happens.
    
    --- jerry

    Jerry,
    
    When I was in college, back at the dawn of time, I was taught that
    the rate of false claims of rape was considered to be the same as
    the rate of false claims for other crimes, such as burglary, theft,
    and robbery.  This rate is about 2% of the reports.
    
    Let's see.  The U.S.A. population is a quarter of a billion, and
    growing.  Current law enforcement estimates are that one quarter
    of the women in this country will be raped at some time in their
    lives.  That's ... (won't fit on my calculator) over 30 MILLION
    women who will live -- and then repeatedly relieve -- a nightmare.
    Then, according to Nancy, only one of 605 of these women will get
    a conviction, so that's about 51,000 convictions -- over (let's
    say) seventy YEARS.  If we then assume that the conviction rate
    is the same for the falsely accused as it is for the accurately
    accused, (which is a very bad assumption) we get 1,033 false
    convictions over 70 years, which is about fifteen per year across
    the country.
    
    Yes, I know.  The cases of rape should be considered by everyone
    to be a much bigger problem, the low conviction rate should be
    considered by everyone to be a much bigger problem, (he**, the low
    arrest rate should be considered by everyone to be a much bigger
    problem,) but if someone wants to concentrate on a little problem
    that derives from the big problem, well, it's permissible.
    
    For myself, when I realize that, statistically, it was likely that
    two -- drat! three -- women were raped while I've been typing this
    note, while I am sure that no man was convicted of rape (falsely or
    otherwise) while I've been typing (since I'm on the East Coast, and
    courts don't start session until nine o'clock), I know where I feel
    more honorable putting my energies.
    
    						Ann B.

    and with the ratio of actual convictions to trials being 106 to 1...
    (I think that was what Nancyb said....)
    
    -Jody
    

    I'll contribute $5 to the Mike-E Grace fund too.  :-)
    
    (Since I was the one who picked up on the rug burn p_n I feel sorta
    responsible.)  :-)
    
    Nanci

re .521, edp, you really think I'm going to "trample others for" 
my "own purposes"?  I'm sorry, but the mere thought of that made me laugh.
I'd have to find some pretty short people wouldn't I? :-)

re .Jerry & edp, hey, I only made a guess at the number when I said
0.  I guess it was an exageration.  I guess there really probably
have been a very small minority of men convicted and imprisoned for
rapes they didn't commit.  (Probably mostly black men convicted of
raping white women, too.)

But, when I think of all the women who have been raped and who will
be raped, and when I realize that in most cases not a darn thing is
done about it, I guess I do consider that to be the more serious
problem.

Lorna

    Ann & Lorna,
    
    I don't disagree with you. The very structure of our legal system
    -- in which juries render guilty verdicts upon determination *within
    a REASONABLE doubt*, rather than no doubt at all -- would implicitly
    assume that there are going to be times when an innocent person
    goes to prison for a crime they didn't commit. And the very fact
    that we as a society allow that legal system to stay in force suggests
    that we as a society have decided that the benefits of the legal
    system are worth the risk of convicting an innocent person.
    
    (Ideally, we hope that every guilty person is punished, and no
    innocent person is, but we know that ideals =/= reality.)
    
    On the other hand, in plain English, a person convicted of a crime
    they didn't commit is a victim, as much a victim as the victim of
    the crime. And we should feel as much sympathy for the former as
    for the latter.
    
    --- jerry

    Hey Spengler, are you related to the ghosterbuster Egon?
    
    REK
    
    
    Been a long day...

    No....but I am related to Robert Spengler.......

�Note 394.53                   System abusing men???                     53 of 53
�CSC32::CONLON "Cosmic laughter, indeed..."           28 lines   2-OCT-1990 09:16
�
�    	Women's rights group work on correcting the way the system abuses
�    	women, yet people [not you or anyone in particular] sometimes
�    	come along to tell us that we should REALLY be working on ways
�    	to help keep the system from abusing men.

Perhaps one reason that so many interest groups have trouble gaining
popular support is that they (the groups) do not publicly recognize
that discrimination against any is discrimination against all, and that
the struggle is not for equality for me or you or her or him, but equality
for all.

/bruce
    

re 412.8 (by DECSIM::HALL "Dale")
                            -< nerd alert >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The Feynman Lectures on Physics (paperback is fine :-)




    .... what did you think I didn't get your hint the first time???

    I guess that Santa better come through, or next January someone will
    start a note called, "Things I wish I'd gotten for Christmas :-("
    
    :-)
    
    Justine 

re 412.8 (by DECSIM::HALL "Dale")
                            -< nerd alert >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The Feynman Lectures on Physics (paperback is fine :-)




    .... what did you think I didn't get your hint the first time???

    I guess that Santa better come through, or next January someone will
    start a note called, "Things I wish I'd gotten for Christmas :-("
    
    :-)
    
    Justine 

*****************************************************************************

    Hey Justine,

    I just dropped in the word that she can check with me as to where to
    borrow it unless she wants to own her own!!!   They *are* a tad bit
    expensive!

    justme....jacqui

    Was it about time or what, Bobbi?  :-)
    
    

    *Very* best congrats!  Hope Rosa is suitably puffed up with pride in
    her mum.

re: <<< Note 57.134 by MAJORS::KARVE "Let's call the whole thing off..." >>>

>    You mean 'cos HP calculators used Reverse Polish, rather than
>    algebraic, right ? Mmmm, not a lot of people remember RPN, and even
>    fewer would believe me if I said it was easier, more efficient etc..
    
    	I just bought a new HP...it's a business calculator, and I was
    so surprised to find an "=" key on it!  I mean, after years of
    using my old HP 41C (I think it is..it's practically an antique
    now! :^) ), I had a hard time using this thing.  I kept looking
    for the "enter" key! :^)

    	amy (who grew up on HP calculators and RPN!)

    What do you mean that your HP 41C is an antique. I still use my HP
    45.

    For more information, programs, and tips on using HP calculators
    (primarily 11-C and 15-C, but they also list others...  see:
    
    ANGORA::HP_CALCULATORS
    
    -Jody
    

    	Well, I've had a couple friends who have seen it, looked at it
    in amazement and said "Man, that's an old model!  Haven't seen one
    of those in ages!"  (I may be wrong on my model number though...I
    *think* it's the 41C...but it might be something else.  It's
    definitely been around a few years, it is a programmable one with
    rechargeable batteries....)

    	Still works for me though... (Had to get the new one for the
    business functions, or I'd still be using it!)

    	amy

    	I don't know why I had the 41C on the brain...I checked - I
    have an HP25!  Sorry 'bout that...

    	amy

            <<< MOMCAT::PIGGY:[NOTES$LIBRARY]WOMANNOTES-V3.NOTE;3 >>>
                        -< Topics of Interest to Women >-
================================================================================
Note 13.380                    I really hate.....                     380 of 406
GWYNED::YUKONSEC "Leave the poor nits in peace!"      5 lines   1-OCT-1990 11:20
                                    -< {*8 >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    ...having to have "head-shots" retaken.
    
    It took me *two hours* to look natural the last time!
    
    E Grace
    
    
    I take this back.  When I went back to have the photos re-done, I saw
    the most facinating thing!  The photographer has a new Kodak Printx (?)
    system.  The whole thing is computerized, and as he takes a photo,
    besides getting onto the film, it also goes to the computer.  He can 
    either save it to the disk or not, but as each photo is taken, he can 
    look at the computer screen and see the photo!  That way he knows how
    the photo came out without having to develop the film!  So, I got to
    see the "picture" before I even left the studio.
    
    Gosh! I like technology!  (Sometimes)
    
    E Grace
    
    

    So E, are you going to send any copies of these prints out west?  :-)
    
    -- Mike

    What, and spoil the mystery?

    
    re 58.536
    
    Jody,  I think you know absolutely everything!  I bet even a 5 year
    old's questions couldn't stump you.  In fact, think I could get you
    to come over to our house next time Dale's 5 yr old niece comes to
    visit?  :-)
    
    Justine 

    why.....
    
    *blink*
    
    thank you!
    
    I'm not perfect, but parts of me are excellent!
    
    -Jody_the_vast_wealth_of_mostly_useless_but_sometimes_useful_knowledge
    

    No, Mike,  You'll  have  to come East. Luckily lots of people were
    willing to help, all you have to do is demur less strongly. :-)

    
    has anyone timed these cycles? phase of the moon? business downturns?
    hormones?
    

    RE: .547
    
    flutterflutter!

    
    never mind ;^)
    

    
    re .549
    
    /flutterflutter!
    
    there she goes again!
    

    >re .549
    
    >/flutterflutter!
    
    >there she goes again!
    
    errr........I had something in my eye?

    Be careful, E.  Remember what happens when you flutter and blush at the
    same time.  :-)
    
    -- Mike

    re:.383.14
    
    	� As I was reading Lee's description, I thought "how
    	many times have I [arbitrarily] decided that an older
    	person would not be interesting to talk to or get to
    	know just because s/he was much older than me. �
    
    A good question, and not easily answered. Back in my pre-DEC days,
    I worked the morning shift at a Friendly Ice Cream shop, and every
    morning, there would be a regular group of retired folks who would
    come in for coffee and muffins. I often took my break when they
    were in, and loved hearing them talk about their life experiences.
    I missed them a lot when I stopped working there and started with
    DEC. A couple of years later, when I moved from First Shift to
    Third Shift, I made a point of stopping in at that Friendly's on
    my way home to sit and chat with them.
    
    It's been years since I've seen most of them, and in that time,
    I've heard that one had moved to Florida, and at least two have
    died.
    
    In the seven years total that I'd worked for Friendly's, the morning
    conversations with Charlie, John, Margaret, and George are among
    my most pleasant memories.
    
    --- jerry

    
    Mike V,
    
    Your current p_n reminds me of a well-known Alaskan artist who 
    is into northwest humor, including inside jokes about salmon.  
    One of his buttons sports a "spawn 'til you die" suggestion.  
    My button proclaims "humpies from hell".  (A humpie is a type 
    of salmon.)
    
    Carla
    

re: 13.420

	So Ann, who holds the trademark on "baidaid"?


						--D ;-)

    Doug,
    
    That gave me a giggle too!
    
    :-)

    >>  who holds the trademark on "baidaid"?
    
    Johisoi & Johisoi, of course.

    
    
    
RE:
    
================================================================================
Note 12.332                 I really love............                 332 of 332
FORBDN::BLAZEK "down river down stream"               5 lines  10-OCT-1990 13:50
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    ... getting flowers from two special friends.  i am loved.
    
    carla
    
    =======================================================================
    
    Gee, I wish I'd thought of sending you flowers (anonymously, of course
    :-).  Happy birthday, Carla!!!  
    
    Justine

    re: 39.44 (quotable men)
    
    "Did you talk to him"
    
    just a little bit.  after the show, i still had an unfinished beer,
    so i let the club clear out.  seemed like everybody vanished, except
    for a few by the stand selling t-shirts.  after a bit, he came out
    and wandered over there.  i had just finished my beer, so i decided
    to go over there also.....no, didn't hear about the lost madonna
    of the wasps, didn't get to hear very much at all, in fact.  
    
    i had written "Something Witty" on a piece of paper, and asked him
    for an autograph...he said he wasn't going to write something witty,
    so i told him i already did, and showed him.  he signed it.
    
    

    re .285.56, Herb-
    
    > hostile'). And then someone (i think Justine) REALLY surprised my
    > chiming in with some very supportive and obviously (to me) upbeat
    > comments something in the general spirit of folks can remain friends in
    > spite of REAL heat. Perhaps something about general civility? I thought
    > it was cataclysmic when all of sudden the women were 'buddies' again. 
    > 
    > I can't switch my feelings on and off like that, don't think most men
    > can, and wonder whether this is another difference that needs be
    > valued.
    
    Can I chase your rathole, Herb?
    
    I didn't read it as 'switching feelings on and off'.  I read it as
    perhaps losing sight, in the heat of the moment, of what one was really
    trying to do, ie, share a point of view.  Yet the edge of civility was
    maintained, and the sharing communicative spirit eventually evidenced
    itself, as Justine observed.  I always try to remember, even when
    reading others' angry word, or when angered by what I've read myself,
    that I'm not getting a full picture; that someone's anger, mine or the
    writer's, is probably obscuring the real human being behind the words.
    
    If there is a difference here to be valued, it is not inherently one of 
    gender, I think.  It is of maintaining respect for one's peers even in 
    the face of differences of opinion.  I think this community usually does 
    that fairly well.
    
    DougO

    re: getting rid of persistent Jehovah's Witnesses...
    
    A friend told me about *her* method last night.  Couple of them came to 
    her door early on a Saturday morning (why do they pick the worst
    possible times?) and her roommate answered.  The roommate wasn't able
    to get rid of them while remaining polite, so my friend saved her by
    walking up behind her (the roommate), wrapping her arms around her, and
    saying "Sweetheart, you better come inside, your breakfast is getting
    cold."
    
    They left pronto.
    
    D!

    A guy I used to work with used this approach once.
    
    They arrive, pamphlets in hand, after checking the name on the
    mailbox. "Good morning, Mr. Y! Tell me: what ills in society would
    you eliminate, if you could?"
    
    He looks at them. Thinks. Replies:
    
    "I'd ban door-to-door soliciting!" <*SLAM*>
    
    
    

    
    	When people call my home phone and ask for "the lady of the house,"
    	I say, "She's not here."
    
    	Sometimes, I say, "My Mother isn't here."  ;^)
    
    	(Well, she isn't!!!)  ;^)
    

    My mother would get rid of JW's by telling them that she was an
    atheist. Worked every time.
    
    --- jerry

    
    re: 285.63 justine
    
                     �  -< so many women, so little time >-    
         
    your title made me think of the button i have with a slight text
    modification:
    
                   so many women, so little nerve
    
    
    (-;
    ~robin

	Re: getting rid of JW door-to-doors.  

	I've told them I was an atheist. That just made them more determined.

	re: buttons 

	When writing my reply on how to get a bandaid off without pulling hair,
I was reminded of a button I got at a Worldcon that said: "If we get peanut oil
from peanuts and vegatable oil from vegatables, where to we get Baby oil from?"
I wore this while carrying around my (then) 4 month  old daughter.  Got lots of 
strange looks.  Had a few people look like they wanted to snatch Katie out of 
my arms and give to a Good Parent, one who wasn't *twisted*. Nyah-ha-ha!

Tracey

    try telling a JW that you aren't a Christian at all!  They backed away!
    

    Some years ago, one came to the door.  I opened the wooden door,
    but left the screen door closed.  She opened it.  Whisk!  Toby
    was out the door and into the woods in a flash.
    
    "Oh!  Should the cat be out?"
    
    "No."
    
    "<JW talk here.>  I'll get him back.  What does he look like?"
    
    "He's easy to spot.  He has this large, white plastic cone around
    his head, and a cloth wick coming out of this wound on his forehead."
    
    "Oh."
    
    She left.
    
    							Ann B.

    I've told JW's about my Buddhism, and then gone to work prostelytizing
    them. Most people who know me know that I *rarely* prostelytize, but
    for a good cause, I can really get into it.
    
    Saving JW's strikes me as a great cause! :-)

    Far from trying to get rid of the door-to-door salvation pedlars, I
    find them to be one of the greatest entertainment values currently
    available.
    
    Little do they know that inside my modest grey home lurks one of the
    more infamous missionary taunters on this continent -- drawing upon her
    liberal Anglo-/Roman- Catholic education and a tradition of family
    discourse on comparative religions and the evolution of theologies,
    doctrines, and schisms.
    
    If the day is pleasant, I just haul out my more favoured Translations,
    the lawn chairs, and a glass of wine and roll up my sleeves
    [figuratively] for an engaging dialog.
    
    Usually they stick around until they turn green or their eyes glaze
    over, put an "X" on my door so to speak, and no one calls again for at
    least 14 months.
    
       Annie

    
    	A friend of mine was very tempted once to tell some JW's
    	that she worshipped the devil.  But the people had brought
    	their two daughters with them and she didn't want to scare
    	them.  But next time they not be so lucky...... =)
    

    
    re: robin and justine
    
    reminds me of my own modified saying:
    
    		so many women, so many _girlfriends_!
    
    carla
    

    
    re .576
    
    
    Show off!
    
    Justine

    
    re: Robin, Justin, Carla: I love it - I nearly choked on my lunch :-)
    
    My favorite button (also from a WorldCon, Tracey): Ladies Sewing Circle
    and Terrorist Society 
    
    (Now where did I put my knitting?)
    
    						/Rita
    

    I have had a charming time, when people try to convert me, interestedly
    discussing their religion with them for the sole purpose of seeing
    whether anything they believe could compleement what I believe, so I
    could "add" it on to my religion (UUism, and in my case, flexible
    UUism...subject to addition without notice...)
    
    .  I tell them this, of course, and they bug out a bit and are
    surprised to find me supporting their religion, yet not wanting to
    convert....
    
    hee hee
    
    -Jody
    

    re: .574
    
    My mother used to use this technique quite effectively.  She'd invite
    the missionaries in for coffee and spend the afternoon talking to them. 
    One pair of JW's came back every week for a few months and one of them
    developed quite a tick in his eye which seemed to get worse as the
    weeks went by.  They finally stopped coming.  ;-)
    
    Nanci 

    Two JW's came to my door one day. They were an elderly couple. I had
    just finished watching one of those TV bible thumpers and came up with
    this idea. I politely listened to their spiel and the said; " You know,
    God must really have a terrific sense of humor." Oh He does, He does."
    was the earnest reply. "Why do you say that?"  
    
    I repled; "Because I've been crying and praying for a miracle in my
    life to take the unhappiness out and turn it around to know the True
    Joy. So, what happens? She sends me a Jehovah's Witness. Only an amused
    Supreme Being would do that."
    
    They left, muttering to themselves.
    
    Phil

    
    
    I don't have any amusing, how-I-got_rid-of unwanted solicitors stories,
    but in my own (real) life, I've been working on getting better at
    saying "no" when that's what I really want to say.  So I look at 
    travelling sales people,  religious folks, phone solicitors,
    etc. as my chance to practice saying, "I don't want to talk to you!"
    
    Try it sometime.  It feels wonderful.  
    
    Justine

As many of you know I used to own a six foot boa named "George" (Boa George...)
I also like to wander around the house wearing my black robe. One day I was
wearing my robe, and had George around my neck when the doorbell rang. It was
two roofing salesmen. I listened politely as they went into their spiel,
meanwhile George was slowly crawling up the back of my neck and down over
my forehead.

These guys' eyes got REAL big, and one of them exclaimed "That's a REAL snake!"
I looked puzzled and said "Of course it is." They backed down the walk watching
me the whole way, then *ran* back to their truck.

	I almost split a gut.
	-- Charles

    
    Justine, I have begun doing the same thing.  somehow lying,
    while perhaps secretly amusing to me, isn't the right way
    for me to interact with anyone.  if someone intrudes on my
    privacy, I embrace my right to tell them "no, I don't want
    this and that is final."
    
    I always feel good afterwards that I expressed the truth.
    solicitors are the most annoying species I can think of.
    
    Carla
    

    in re .583
    
    I almost fell off my chair laughing :-)

     re 13.426 (I really hate.....)  AERIE::THOMPSON 
    
    >>80% of people who note are just releasing pent up hostility or
    >>passing time waiting for something-or-other ...
    >>
    >>and the other 20% are fanatics about some cause-or-other ...
    
    
    When I read this, I was dying to think of a reply in which I could
    exhibit hostility, boredom, and some kind of fanaticism, but..
    I couldn't be bothered spending time on such a stupid task (ok, 
    so I got everything but fanaticism :-)
    
    Justine

    well having read and even participated in some of the chortling about
    Jehovah's Witnesses, I have to recant.  (Tho it's true about the
    reaction to 'but I'm not a Christian at all'.)
    
    I think telephone solicitors are despicable.  But I try a polite 'no
    thankyou' even with them.  Give'em the benefit of the doubt; maybe the
    actual caller, assuming a human not a computer-driven spiel, is
    ignorant and/or that-desperately in need of a job.  I can't believe
    that the job is too rewarding, in $ or any other way!
    
    And as for JW and others seeking to spread their word, well I can only
    say that I can respect their beliefs, without subscribing to them, at
    least as much as I can respect the Catholicism of my in-laws, who lived
    with the burden of mortal sin for some 35 years.  _I_ cannot see how
    they can have done it, to embrace the faith that rejected them and
    denied them the main comfort Catholics have (they could not receive
    Communion all that time - that's serious, no?).  But if their faith
    rejected them, they did not reject their faith.
    
    I can be gentle with their belief, since it seems to give them
    something they need.

    My daughter had a 5' rat snake which she would occasionally "wear" to
    the door to deter unwanted solicitors, it worked wonderfully well.

    Once when I was married to my ex, and living in an apartment building,
    we kept being bothered by a guy selling magazines.  One afternoon I
    heard a knock at the door and looked out the peek-hole to see the
    magazine salesman back again.  I turned to my husband and said, "It's
    that same guy selling magazines again."  He said, "Don't answer the
    door."  But, the guy kept on knocking and knocking.  Suddenly, my
    husband leaped out of his chair, ran over to the door, burst it open,
    and yelled at the top of his lungs, "Get the f**k out of here or I'll
    kill ya!"  
    
    I don't know who was more surprised, me, or the guy selling magazines. 
    The guy dropped the magazines, scrambled to pick them up, turned around
    and ran down the hall, and never came back.
    
    Lorna
    

    
    re .590:
    
    That reminds me of when I get calls to subscribe to newspapers,
    I use the line, "I can't read".
    
    Or how about the call my husband got from Chemlawn while he was
    taking a break from mowing the lawn.  Chemlawn, they promised,
    "would make your grass grow better" to which he answered if they had
    something that would make it grow less well, he might consider it.
    
    Also, I remember when I was living with my grandfather during college
    and got a phone call for "Mrs. Bauer".  I answered, "She's been dead
    for 20 years."  And that was the truth!
    

I was just struck by the possibility of marketting operfume for bisexual women
or lesbians.  The name of the perfume would be, of course, Sapphodisiac.

					(-:  Nigel

    re 323.34
    
    so, um.......have i mentioned when my birthday is?
    
    and that i will be turning.....uh.....how old am i?  50?
    
    

RE 432.8 (and earlier replies on the term "Native American" and to whom it 
applies) ...

I've also got no trouble with the term "Native American" as a substitute for 
"American Indian", but can't resist noting that they aren't any more "native" 
in an *absolute* sense than European settlers (having emigrated across the 
Bering Strait around 30,000 B.C.) - it's just a question of "how long". 

Is there some fixed number of generations that defines a threshhold for the term
"Native"? Similarly, my forebears can't lay claim to being "native" to Europe, 
since if you go far enough back, we all originated in Africa anyway.

We (or most of us, anyway; there are a few I might wonder about) can lay claim 
to being "native" to the planet. Beyond that, it's all semantics.

"American Indian"?! You mean "American" - as in the continent named for that
Italian upstart Amerigo Vespucci? You mean "Indian" as being mistaken for
a native of India by another Italian/Sardinian/Catalan upstart Christopher
Columbus? Why should they be happy to be called American Indian? For that
matter lumping Iroquois with Cherokee with Seminole with Sioux with Hopi with
Creek with Blackfoot with Havasu with Miwok with all the other independent
native people under one name? Feel free to call them "American Indian", just
don't be surprised if they get offended.

	-- Charles

    
    .592 -
    
    makes scents!
    

    
    The official way to get JWs to stop talking to you is to tell them
    that you *used* to be a JW yourself, but got dis-fellowed and was
    kicked out of the Kingdom Hall by the elders. JWs are not allowed to
    speak to dis-fellowed former JWs.
    
    I have a friend that was dis-fellowed.
    
    Guy
    

58.595 - By the same token, "Native American" is equally offensive, because 
(1) it lumps the disparate tribes together, and (2) it applies the tag of
Italian origin (though where did the Italians come from?) to ... whomever we
seem to be talking about.

I think I'll rely on "Hey, you!". It's direct and (usually) unambiguous.

You may, of course, use any label you like. You may, for example, choose to
label people with things they find offensive. Just don't be surprised or act
"hurt" when they object.

	"If we have to have a label for n*gg*rs let's use "n*gg*r" - it's been
	around a long time and it's unambiguous."

Ok, but don't come crying to me when one of those n*gg*rs punches your lights
out.

I personally think that there is no good answer to the problem of what to call
groups of people. You can use the tried-and-true names that "everyone"
understands, but that offend (some of) the group being named. You can use the
name that (some of) the group uses for itself. You can try to avoid generalizing
about groups at all. But the rules keep changing. I think the real objection
is that after a time the name used by the percieved opressors for an out
group becomes offensive simply by being commonly used. Thus ANY new name will
eventually come to symbolize oppression and some people will want to change it.
Names take on emotional baggage simply by their use, and that even the most
neutral, most inoffensive term will eventually become hated. Look at

	colored - negro - black - african american - ...

That's language in evolution, and you might as well just go with it. You can
fight it, I know people who do. You can gleefully jump on each au courant term
as it comes along, you can resign yourself to being corrected. You can even
rail about the silliness of the changes, but you might as well get used to it.

You can also try to understand WHY out groups feel a need to have a name of and
for themslves, and you can decide FOR YOURSELF if you will use their term for
themselves or the term they dislike but that you are comfortable with. You can
also pick on people who decide differently or not, again as you choose.

Lest anyone get the wrong idea, I'm neither offended by American Indian, nor am
I particularly inclinded to encourage people to use Native American instead.
However I think I understand WHY "American Indian" might be offensive, and why
these people would prefer to be called something else.

	-- Charles

    Re: .597
    
    I like your way of getting rid of JWs.  I sure beats getting caught
    with your pants down, which, by the way, did not work for me.
    
    Mary

    
    I think my upstairs neighbor is a JW.  I think this because I noticed
    she gets the WatchTower mailed to her (in a plain brown wrapper).
    
    CQ

    neither of which dubious corrections changes the feeling that Charles
    describes in objections to the label "American Indian", Michael.
    
    DougO 

    The most efficient way I ever got rid of dor-to-door solicitors was
    some years ago.  I was dying my hair, and while I was waiting I had 
    a blue mask painted on my face drying, and was in a funky old bathrobe.
    So when I came to the door, they saw a real strange apparition with
    red goopy hair and a blue face - they ran!  Never did find out what
    they were selling...
    
    Linda

    G'day,
    
    paraphrasing something from the local computer press.....
    
    
    What is black and brown and looks good on (fill in your own pet person
    hate)[such as door-to-door salesmen]?
    
    
     A pack of dobermans
    
    
     
    
    djw

    How about earthling for referring to other persons and be done with it?  

Well, I saw my head-shot last night.  It looked...human, so I guess I will
let them hang it in the lobby.  \^;

E Grace

    
    re .607
    
    i prefer to use the term Dirtling.

                <<< MOMCAT::PIGGY:[NOTES$LIBRARY]WOMANNOTES-V3.NOTE;3 >>>
                        -< Topics of Interest to Women >-
================================================================================
Note 337.109                     Musical Quotes                       109 of 110
SA1794::CHARBONND "scorn to trade my place"          12 lines  12-OCT-1990 12:24
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    "Sometimes in the dark of night
    you see the crossroad sign
    one way is the morning light
    you've got to make up your mind"
    
    "Seven Turns" The Allman Brothers Band
    
    Dedicated to my friend Sheila who, one night a year ago, took the 
    wrong turn. She was 26, found herself attracted to another woman,
    was turned down. Couldn't handle being gay in a straight world.
    Comitted suicide. If you ever lose sight of the supportiveness of
    this file remember what the real world drives people to.

            <<< MOMCAT::PIGGY:[NOTES$LIBRARY]WOMANNOTES-V3.NOTE;3 >>>
                        -< Topics of Interest to Women >-
================================================================================
Note 337.110                     Musical Quotes                       110 of 110
GLITER::STHILAIRE "Food, Shelter & Diamonds"          6 lines  12-OCT-1990 14:42
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    re .109, maybe she just couldn't handle being turned down.
    
    And, another thought, notesfiles aren't with us all the time.
    
    Lorna
    
===================================================================

    Maybe so, but I think there was more. This was in a small town,
    a lot of very narrow-minded types. 'Coming out' would have got her
    put down and cold-shouldered by many, if not most of, her 'friends'.
    
    A lot of the world is still in the dark ages, IMO.
    
    Dana

    
    
Re 438.1                           Sarcasm                              1 of 1
DECWET::JWHITE "waldo the bird is dead"               4 lines  12-OCT-1990 16:24
                                    -< ;^) >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    i know in my case, i am sarcastic and/or cynical so much of the
    time people can't believe it when i'm actually being sincere.
    
    ==========================================================================
    
    Yeah, right, Joe.
    
    Justine
    

    
    justine, whatever can you mean?
    

    
     re 12.348                 I really love
    
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    ...having a face to match to a =wn=ers name!
    
    E G.
    
    
    
    
    
    Me, too, though I must say I might have a hard time recognizing you
    next time I see you since your costume and makeup really changed your
    appearance.  That photo of you in the hall is wonderful!
    
    Justine
    
    and it was nice meeting your parents, too!  

    The son of a co-worker is selling magazines.  I was looking 
    through the little catalog and came upon these special interest 
    mags that struck me as being on the bizarre side:

    "CARtoons"
       America's only humor automotive magazine.

    "Firehouse"
       Up-to-the-minute reports of America's largest fires.

    "Lefthander"
       Experiences, enjoyments and products of, and for, lefthanders.

    "Teddy Bear Review"
       A must for teddy bear lovers.

    "Twins"
       The only international magazine for parents of multiples.

    "Walleye"
       Tells how, when and where to catch walleyes.

    My son knicked me for 51 dollars worth of these magazines last Thurs.
    Same drive. I. too, noticed all the specialty mags. I got Teddy Bear
    Review for my daughter. Reader's Digest for mother. For myself, I got
    something called Aboriginal Science Fiction Magazine. With that title,
    I had to know.
    
    I've heard of CARtoons. I thought it was curious that most of the books
    were specialty. Including Hunting and Fishing mags for regions and
    states. I considered getting the Baltimore or San Diego city pubs., but
    having only been to Baltimore once and never to the West Coast, I said
    NAH. :-)
    
    Whatever happened to mainstream magazines at these sales. Prices were a
    bit high for my tastes too.
    
    Phil

>    "Lefthander"
>       Experiences, enjoyments and products of, and for, lefthanders.



	You have no idea how this world is biased toward righties until
	you've lived your life in the shoes of a leftie.

	Many everyday use household items are oriented toward righties.

		Ladles
		Potato-peelers
		scissors
		sewing machines
		computer keyboards
		telephones
		three ring binders/spiral notebooks
		some knives


		etc etc etc.

	Talk about discrimination!!!!! 8-)

	kath_leftie

    
    hear, hear, kathy!!
    
    i hated those desks at school that only a righthanded person could use
    comfortably.  i end up turning all my spiral notebooks and three-ring
    binders "backwards".  makes it tougher for my co-workers to thumb
    through my notes about a project. (-;
    
    ~robin

    Equal lefts for lefties!
    
    I hated being in first and second grade and having to SIT on my
    left hand for two years and only use my right hand.  I still have
    trouble with left and right and still do all the stuff I learned
    before I was six with my left hand.                           
    
    The weirdest thing was when I was about 14 I took guitar lessons.
    I simply could not do it.  Then I switched and found I could play
    lefty with no problem.  I'm still a terrible guitar player but at
    least I'm a left-handed terrible guitar player.
    
    (And for those curious souls, yes, the process of switching made
    me stutter terribly.  I stutter occasionally now, and cure it by
    holding my own hand!)
    
       Margaret 
            still trying to figure out if I'm left- or right-brained
                        :^)
     

	I own an omni-handed potato peeler even though I am right handed...

						--D

Is this the right place to confess that I was "Next Unseening"
through this conf and read 58.618 (below)

>	Many everyday use household items are oriented toward righties.

>		Ladles
		etc


but read it as..


>	Many everyday use household items are oriented toward righties.

>		Ladies
		etc


(I had Next Unseened passed this note untill what I thought
I had read sunk in (Mental voice went "Huh?") and I backed
up to check)

    You omitted can openers.  (I was going to say "left out", but that
    would have been wrong.)
    
    Two slogans I heard in the early seventies:
    
    	"Left on!"
    
    	"Get Rightie!"
    
    					Ann B.
    					righthander, but sympathetic

	Here in Greenville there is a store full of things for the Left-hander.
(Robin, it's in Lewis Plaza On Augusta Rd. behind the Post office.)

	Some tee-shirts/buttons I saw there were:

	A picture of a guy writing in a contorted position with the caption 
"Hire the left-handed, it's fun to watch them write."
	
	"Only lefthanded people are in their right minds."

	"Everyone is born righthanded; Only a few of us overcome it."

	"Everyone is born lefthanded; you turn righthanded when you commit your 
first sin."


	Wish I could remember some of the others...		

Tracey

    re: .606
    
>    What is black and brown and looks good on (fill in your own pet person
>    hate)[such as door-to-door salesmen]?
>    
>     A pack of dobermans
    
    Is there any way to get the dobermans into your telephone so they
    can look good on telephone salespeople, too?
    
    --bonnie

    re .625, there's a store like that in Boston, too, at Quincy Mkt.
    
    Lorna
    

    re 39.52 by PROXY::SCHMIDT. I stated that it was my own oppinion. This
    is also my oppinion. No, they shouldn't be arrested, tried, or
    sentenced. No their product shouldn't be destroyed. Definitely no, they
    shouldn't be shot or harmed in anyway other then financially. This may
    be accomplished by just refusing to buy their material. Also, people
    should be allowed to voice their oppinions on the subject matter in any
    of this controversial music. They already do. It's just that when it's
    taken to extremes that it is wrong. We don't have to listen. We don't
    have to purchase their products. We do have a responsibility to insure
    that some values are diseminated to our children. Your values and my
    values may differ. That's OK. As long as you don't  try to force
    yopur's on my kids. Obviously children are going to get some of their
    values from sources other then their parents. That's OK also. Just as
    long as it isn't force fed to them. 
    
    As to why kids are attracted to such things, we are all to some extent
    attracted by lurid, forbidden, and yes, sometimes even disgusting
    things. It's just human nature.
    
    I can only hope that such people that write and perform such forms of
    entertainment are only doing it for the money and don't really think
    like that. Maybe if that's all and somehow people stop buying such
    things they'll go on to something not as revolting as some of the
    topics.
    
    Once again, the above is IMHO. Your perfectly entitled to your's and
    such entertainers are entitled to try and make a buck from such
    garbage.
    
    Phil

    
    I couldn't locate the note which discussed the various aspects 
    of the package, so I will be safe and ask here.
    
    does anyone know if you can request to be offered the package?
    or whether it will eventually extend to sales support?
    
    Carla
    

    
>    does anyone know if you can request to be offered the package?
>    or whether it will eventually extend to sales support?


	Depends on the group, where you work and whether that group
	is going to be cut back.

	We're being cut, people are volunteering, but if they are not in
	the positions that NEED to be cut, they are out of luck.


	So, basically, if your group needs your skills, you can't get
	the package.  And since Sales is where they need people, it's
	highly doubtful that Sales Support would get offered the package.

	kathy

    With all the birthday talk in here, (see notes 430 and 459) I would
    just like to say that I always celebrate my conception day. After all,
    without a conception day, I wouldn't have a birthday.
    
    Phil whose c-day was last Monday.

    Phil,
    
    Birthdays are easier to pinpoint.
    
    Most people's c-days could be one of several days. Or even one of
    several times the same day.
    
    ("Let's see -- do I celebrate c-time at 7:14 AM or 9:44 PM?")
    
    BRUCE

    
    	Was this topic where people talked about how to deal with
    	people confronting you at your doorstep pushing their
    	views?  (this was the Jehovah Witness string?)
    
    	Anyway, I've had this problem with people from Greenpeace.
    
    	Once I was outside in the garage looking for an air pump 
    	attachment, when I hear a man standing within 3 feet behind
    	me say something about donating to Greenpeace.  It was dark
    	out, and I nearly jumped through the roof.  I repeatedly told
    	him I did not accept solicitations via phone or in person,
    	and to send mail.  He was incredibly persistent.
    
    	Another time I answered the door (and I hate answering the
    	door to someone I don't recognize), and it was another guy
    	from Greenpeace, and he was just as annoying.
    
    	I told him I would not donate to Greenpeace again because of
    	how harrassing their volunteers were, and I have not.
    
    					   nancy b.
    	

    I am having a hard time digesting some of the stuff I read last night.
    
    It reminds me of some other situations that I have experienced.
    
    And it just goes to prove that being persistent can make a minority
    opinion law or create change.
    
    For me proving a point would never jeopardize someone else's job or
    well being.  
    
    I had hoped that were some unwritten codes within the notes community,
    one of which was before extracting someone's note and doing something
    with it the writer would be notified and given an opportunity to
    resolve the issue off line.
    
    I would not be surprised if the backlash from edp's quest for
    whatever...is it equality, it feels like a law that prevents women from
    getting angry at men, or a law that will not allow us to gather and
    express our feelings in a supportive community is more than he
    bargained for.  I certainly hope he can justify the amount of time he
    has spent on this endeavor and that he has earned his pay each week.
    
    But it may be that the corporation will decide that noting is
    nonproductive and we will all suffer for the actions of the few.
    
    sigh....
    

    re .632. Sorry it takes a bit for me to reply. I only get to write in
    here during  lunch, breaks, and after work hours. I realize c-days are
    somewhat difficult to pinpoint. I had tongue in cheek for the note. I
    just backed up 9 months from my b-day and came up with Oct. 15, 1951.
    B-day is July 15, 1952. I don't seriously go around talking about my
    c-day. My mother would be terribly embarassed for one thing.
    
    As for c-times, forget it. I don't even know my b-time. Sometime
    between 5:00 - 7:00 PM. I only know that it was 9 months and 6 days
    past my parents wedding day. 
    
    Phil(who should add smiley faces to his silliness.
    

    
    I think that it was in here somewhere that someone asked whether the
    Statue of Justice on top of the Old Bailey in London was wearing a
    blindfold or not.....can't remember where it was asked.....
    
    Anyway, I had a look for you today.
    
    
    She is.
    
    'gail

    Re: c-time
    
    The ancient Chinese (I don't know what the modern Chinese do) figured
    that a baby was a year old when it was born. That's 3 months more
    accurate than our way of reckoning.
    
    (And puleeze, let's not get rat-holed into the when_life_begins_
    _abortion flap.)
    
    Re:  -.1 --  that's how the saying "Justice is blind" originated.
    
    Bruce
    
    

    
    seems to me it's 12 months less accurate.