Conference turris::womannotes-v2

    If I see anyone struggling to put his or her coat on, I try to assist. 
    I don't even need to know the person.  I'm always appreciative when the
    favor is returned...from either sex.
    
    What do I *expect*?  Nothing.
    
    Gale, the problem I find with the "mothers teaching their sons" theory
    is that I believe it should be "parents teaching their children".
    
    Marge

    I was  taught  (early  70's  in a high school for young gentlemen)
    that  a  gentleman  always  helps  a  lady with her coat. Recently
    ladies  and gentlemen have become endangered species, and I help a
    woman  I'm escorting with her coat if it seems heavy or awkward. I
    would  help somebody of either sex if they are struggling with the
    coat.

--David

    Re: .1
    
    Sorry Marge.. I've been a single parent too long..  you are right..
    parent it should have read...
    
    Consider .0 to be amended to "parent should teach"  (thanks for 
    pointing THAT out!)
    
    Gale

    I consider it good manners to help a companion with their coat, be
    they male or female, if it looks as if they would have difficulty.
    I'd also do this if I had "checked" the coats and was retrieving them.
    
    The only way I could consider such a gesture "chauvinistic" is if
    the woman was already putting on her coat, with no apparent trouble,
    and the man rushed over and insisted that he help.  This parallels
    the earlier discussions on (do I dare mention it?) holding/opening
    doors.  If it's done in a graceful manner, few would take offense.
    
    				Steve

    
    A few random comments: (slightly tongue in cheek, but not un-meant)
    
    1) whether it is or is not chauvinistic (though what overly patriotic
    Frenchmen have to with this I don't know) to try to help without
    being asked I do not know, but it is clearly gauche in the extreme
    to stand around whilst somebody struggles...
    
    2) Children should be trained to help. It is also worth pointing
    out that the recipient also needs to have been trained if they are
    not to get a disloccated shoulder as a result of a false move...
            
    3) It is easier to help another person with their coat if you are
    taller than them. Hence the most l;ikely scenario is for a male
    to help a female, since on avarage males are taller than females
    of the human species.
    
    4) If you resent the offer, preclude its possibility by wearing
    an opera cloak: you can whirl it round your shoulders with consumate
    ease so quickly that not even a chauvinist can try to help...
                         
    /. Ian .\

    >...(though what overly  patriotic Frenchmen have to do with this
    > I don't know)...
    
    Baaaad pun.  But I think it was "Chauvelin", not "Chauvin" (you
    ARE referring to the agent from the Scarlet Pimpernel?)
    
    Keith

    Nope, Keith, he's referring to Nicholas Chauvin, a french soldier
    passionately devoted to Napoleon and the primacy of France.  (The guy
    may actually have been a literary creation rather than a real person,
    I'm not sure)
    
    						=maggie

    If you're going to a business function, you don't wear clothes that
    are "difficult".  It puts everyone in an awkward position - the
    scenario in the basenote.
    
    Since the woman in question had an escort, it is obvious to me 
    that either of them should attempt to help the other out of any kind of 
    awkwardness.  The same rule would apply if two same sex friends
    attended a function together.  Mutual support.
    
    I don't see any question of chauvinism in this scenario at all.  I'd
    be tempted to blame the woman who wore something she couldn't deal with
    by herself thereby creating the awkwardness for the men in her party.
    Whatever a man chose to do in that situation, I'd have to sympathize.
    I'm sure he'd suffer some angst before deciding whether to rescue a
    damsel who had put herself in distress.

Sorry folks!
I was raised(way back in the dark ages ;-}) to open and hold doors for ladies,
help a lady with her coat, to walk around to the passenger-side of the car to 
open the door for the lady(ladies were taught to wait in the car after
it stopped for the gentleman to open the door). I was taught to walk on the
"outside" on the sidewalks, to let a lady be seated first at dinner,
to give up my seat on a bus or trolley for a lady.

All things that today are looked down on by many. I still do a lot
of them, probably always will.
Amos (hate-mail will be ignored, save the effort :-} :-} :-} :-} )

    
    Thanks Maggie: yes Chauvin was a real person (though perhaps the
    character in the Scarlet Pimpernel is loosely based on him). In
    my slightly gauche tongue-in-cheek style I was trying to say I saw
    no chauvinism (modern definition) here.
    
    Incidentally the rule I try to live by is to consider the reverse
    situation: what would be the impression if the escort didn't help
    with the coat?
    
    For example if I hold a door open for somebody who clearly doesn't
    need it then I may be seen to be patronising them. If I allow the
    door to swing shut in the face of a woman trying to cope with an
    arm full of packages and a baby-carriage then I am being un-mannerly.
    
    If I offer to help a colleague with her coat when she doesn't need
    the help, then I am being chauvinistic. If I do not offer to help
    when she clearly can use the help, then I am being un-mannerly.
    In the scenario of the base note I believe the help to be reasonable,
    and hence mannerly rather than chauvinistic...
    
    /. Ian .\

 When I see a woman struggling to put on her coat, I take the most 
straightforward approach I know: "May I help you with that?" If she says yes,
I do, if no, I let her get on with it. I used to always help, but since 
reading this file, I have begun to ask so as to make my intentions perfectly
clear (no power brokering or whatever).

 The Doctah

    Am I practising Woman's Lib??
    
      I go out with my boyfriend... I help HIM find the arm of the coat
    that he can't seem to find.
      I offer to pay since he payed last time.
      Generally the rule is whoever pays the other leaves the tip.
       I offer to take him out to eat for whatever reason and sometimmees
    no reason.
    
    Am I practising Woman's Lib?? No I don't think so I am just treating
    others like I like to be treated/ or I want to do something nice.
    
    If a gentleman open my door I feel extra special, since I don't
    see that done too often in today's society. If he helps me with
    my coat, then I start to feel like I am very special to this person.
    and If he offers to pick up dinner and the tip then either I done
    something wrong or I done something right/he done something wrong
    and he hasn't told me or he appreciates what a good time we have
    together. What ever!
    
      Basically, I feel why not help! 
    
    Lise

aw Marge, you beat me to it!

Maybe the women of the file can take coat-helping lessons? I realize I don't
really know how to help Joe on with his coat efficiently.
	Mez

    Well, I realize I didn't put how I felt...
    
    I believe that the man should have helped the lady on with her coat,
    (including, but not part of this evening - having it checked/unchecked
    for her).
    
    I also think that the lady should offer to help the man with his
    coat...
    
    But I also believe that a man should open the car door for a lady,
    walk on the outside of the sidewalk, and help her with her coat on,
    and offer to place the key in the lock of her door when he has escorted
    her to her doorway, and I believe a man should ALWAYS escort her
    to her doorway....

    But this is a business situation and most people are responding with
    what they would do in a social one.  Yes, many men have been taught
    to help a "lady" on with her coat.  But in a business situation, a
    man calling attention to a woman's sex, (by *automatically* assuming
    he should help her on with her coat), is definintely in danger of
    being sexist.  She drew the attention to the sex difference by
    appearing helpless, but you can be sure the man will probably be the
    one chastized for responding to a traditional woman as a traditional
    man.
    
    It puts a man in a quandry if he was raised to see women only
    in a social context and is now faced with one in quite a different
    context.  I say a woman should try to *never*  be a traditional "lady", 
    (helpless with the coat, can't open a door, doesn't carry money, etc), 
    in a business situation to avoid the awkwardness during these years of
    transition.  Since we as women are the ones who most want to see this
    transition made, (from women as helpless "ladies" to competent business
    associates), we should do everything we can to clearly define what is 
    business and what is social.  Struggling helplessly with a coat in a 
    business situation undermines a woman's image as an equal.  I would
    wonder why the woman in question didn't understand this when selecting
    her clothes for the event and further, why in heaven she would look
    for any kind of nastiness in a traditional male response to her
    traditional female behavior.  As ye sow...
    
    And this has nothing to do with the usual snafus that everyone, even
    men, occasionally encounter when juggling briefcase, umbrella, etc and
    trying to put on a coat.  Anyone nearby would assist such a man and
    should assist such a woman with no fear of hostile retribution. 

    Question.  *What* is wrong with the woman simply turning around,
    handing her coat to the closest male, and asking nicely "would
    you help me with my coat, please".   I have done that when I had
    on a bulky suit jacket and to struggle alone with the coat made me look
    like a whale in heat.
    
    Sometimes I think that men just plain don't know what to do.  For
    many of them, they have been at least once in a "damned if you
    do, damned if you don't situation" and typical of most males, when
    in doubt, they find standing still or stepping backwards their 
    only safe response.

    M

    re: .16
    
    Marilyn, I seem to agree with what you said.  I see nothing wrong with
    asking for assistance.  I also agree with Marge - I would most
    definitely help anyone - man, woman, or child - that was struggling
    with their outerwear.  It's just common courtesy.  Nothing sexist, just
    courteous.
    
    -Dotti.

    I think the key thing is "struggling."  If a person is obviously
    "struggling" with their coat stuck half on and half off or something,
    it seems more polite to try to help them than to stand by and watch,
    regardless of the sex of either.  On the other hand, if the party
    is standing up and preparing to leave, and one attractive woman reaches
    for her coat, and several men leap to her assistance, that would
    be embarrassing, chauvinistic, and not suitable behavior for a business
    function.
    
    I don't think that I, personally, have ever helped assist anyone
    over the age of 5 with a coat.   I grew up, female, in the 50's
    and 60's and it was never brought to my attention that I should
    help anyone else with their coats.  However, if I noticed someone
    near me struggling ("God, help me! My coat's stuck!") I would probably
    either try to help them or suggest that someone else should.  One
    of the things I've noticed about being small is that nobody ever
    expects me to help out with physical things, and frankly I'm glad.
     Most people are bigger than me anyway.  I figure let them do it.
     I'd probably be the one with my coat stuck half on and half off
    anyway.
    
    Lorna
    

RE .5  ASHAM::PHILPOTT_I "Col. Philpott is back in action" 
    
>    2) Children should be trained to help. It is also worth pointing
>    out that the recipient also needs to have been trained if they are
>    not to get a disloccated shoulder as a result of a false move...

I certainly need to be trained in how to wear a coat when someone (usually
a man) is helping me. I haven't dislocated my shoulder yet ;-) but somehow
my hand never goes out to the place where the sleeve is. It takes at
least twice as long to find that hole to put my hand through when
someone else is holding the coat. As a result, I hate to be helped
with my coat. Not because I think its chauvinistic but because I'm
so uncomfortable with it. Of course, I blame it on my upbringing -
I grew up in a place (bombay,India) where noone ever wears coats.

On similar lines, sometimes a man pulls out a chair for me and I,
thinking that he's going to sit there, go and pull another one
for myself. Slightly embarrassing, this lack of manners.  

Manisha

    ps : I do think it's good manners to help someone who is
    struggling with a coat or hold the door for someone who's
    carrying stuff. Whether it is chauvinist or not depends
    on how it is done. 
            

    It is plain good manners to help anyone in that situation, be a man,
    woman or child and it is even better to be helped by someone you don't
    even know...it is nice to feel human and not just an articulate thing
    forgotten while in need...
    YES, manners should be taught and should be appreciated by all. One of
    the things that made Japan unforgettable to us was just that, those 
    exquisite manners that all levels of Japanese showed to us... (You could 
    except some kids who acted a bit rough...more out of nervousness than 
    lack of manners).  Give me manners anytime! I couldn't care if it came 
    from man woman, child or elderly... God bless them all! I never felt
    out of place, humilliated, ofended or anythging like that by helping
    and being helped.  I am a woman who things human being are nice
    regardless sex...BEHAVIOR is what makes them less loving...not their
    SEX.

    Being a terminal klutz, I often need help negotiating complex
    things like coats.  I often ask Jan for help (especially if she
    hasn't yet noticed that I'm busy thrashing about in a corner) and
    I've asked for help from female colleagues ("Aack! It's got me!
    Help!").  
    
    A lot of social ease in these situations comes about
    from simple communication.  How long does it take to say, "May
    I help?" when you're unsure if someone wants or needs help.
    If you're close enough to grab a coat, open a door, or take a
    package, you're close enough to verbally make the offer.  Then,
    rather than performing an assumptive act, you in essence put the
    other person in control of their destiny and avoid any unwanted
    dependence on their part.  Both parties wind up feeling good.
    
    And I think this is equally applicable to business or social
    situations.  (Example:  On my first day in my first job, I
    came towards my new office to find someone holding a stack of
    printouts and wrestling with a door.  My first impression was that
    they were trying to open it.  I asked, "May I help?" and was
    answered with, "Yes, thanks, I can't get the door closed."  I was
    glad I asked.  I latched the door and walked down the hall next
    to the woman who turned out to be my new boss.)
    
    (Something I've been thinking about in the last few weeks is how
    people seem to save their energy and communications skills for the
    "big" discussions or crises that come along, when they could head
    problems off by a lot more attention to the basics...)
    
    Ron

>>< Note 744.2 by ULTRA::WITTENBERG "Secure Systems for Insecure People" >
>>
>>
*>>>>    I was  taught  (early  70's  in a high school for young gentlemen)
>>    that  a  gentleman  always  helps  a  lady with her coat. Recently
>>    ladies  and gentlemen have become endangered species, and I help a
>>    woman  I'm escorting with her coat if it seems heavy or awkward. I
>>    would  help somebody of either sex if they are struggling with the
>>    coat.

--David


except for *>> ( I am a *tad* older than that)   ditto