Conference turris::womannotes-v2

    Try to relax. This is clearly upsetting to you, and it's very easy
    to  imagine the worst when you're upset. Right now there's nothing
    to  do  but  wait  for  the  6  year-old's  mother  to talk to her
    children. 

    If she   doesn't   find   the  other  rings,  then  consider  your
    alternatives. But before you do that, think about what you want if
    the  rings  are lost. You talked about the insurance and who would
    pay for replacement. Is that the real issue? The things which have
    sentimental  value to me can't be replaced (except, perhaps by the
    person  who  gave  it  to  me originally), and if they were lost I
    would  be  upset,  but  I wouldn't try to buy replacements. If the
    issue really is one of money, you can file an insurance claim, and
    if  the girl's mother agrees that her daughter was responsible for
    losing all the rings she should cover the deductible. 

    If the  rings  are found, the mother will presumably tell the girl
    not  to  play  with things that aren't hers, and there's no reason
    why  you can't go on inviting them to dinner. There's no reason to
    let a 6 year-old's carelessness interfere with a frienship.

    But for now, try to relax. See if she finds the rings, and try not
    to imagine all possible horrible consequences.

--David

    I would try and discuss with the mother what the appropriate solution
    is for the child who took the jewelry.  The child needs to learn
    respect for other's property.  It won't be an easy conversation.
    Maybe try using the last few sentences of your note as a starting
    point - you want to continue to have these people as friends, you
    have learned something about the behavior of small children, etc.
    
    Contact your insurance company now about what your coverage is so
    that you have facts about how to handle the monetary portion of
    your loss.  Several times in the past I have had someone offer to
    pay the deductable when a damage or loss occurred for which there
    was coverage.  It seems reasonable to me that the financial loss
    accrue to them as much as practical.  You did nothing wrong. 

    Good luck.  I hope that all the rings are retrieved and returned,
    as nothing can compensate for the sentimental value of what may
    be lost.
    
    Alison

    First of all, sounds like the child needs to learn a thing or two
    about lying, but not via punishment.  Punishment will discourage
    the child from revealing (if they know) where the other ring(s)
    are.
    
    I *KNOW* rings are pretty to children (had trouble getting my class
    ring back from a certain little one a while ago....a little convincing
    from his parent helped a lot....gentle convincing, to be sure).
    But this little one has to learn not to take things that aren't
    theirs (they can get arrested for that, if they do it at a store).
    
    I think the scariest part is the loss of something sentimental.
    Insurance may well cover the financial part, but the sentiment with
    which the rings were given/received is difficult to replace....
    
    Perhaps the "exchange" idea would work....a ring (and a bracelet,
    and a necklace) for the ring, if no other way - but that does nothing
    towards teaching the child that stealing is wrong (and even if she
    said she was just borrowing it, the fact that she lied about the
    class ring shows that she KNEW it was wrong!).....
    
    Maybe the mother could make more clear the emotional value of the
    rings you....tell the child that it's as valuable to you as (make
    a proper analogy to something the child really treasures).  And
    maybe the mother can tell the child that if you don't get the rings
    back, you will cry, and be hurt, and maybe even get sick, because
    you'll miss them so much.  Perhaps the mother should make clear
    there will be no revenge/punishment this time....
    
    What a difficult position....my sympathies are with you...
    
    ever since my jewelry was stolen a few years ago, I wear basically
    every valuable/sentimental ring I have, all the time, that way if
    people want to take them, they'll have to deal with me first.... 
    
    -Jody
    

    Well, as of last night, the little girl is still saying she didn't
    take them.  She said she thought the class ring was her's (where
    would a 6 year old get a class ring??).  So, her mother is still
    looking for them and trying to convince her to tell us where they
    are.  As of 8:30 last night, the girl's father, whom the mother
    tells me can usually get anything out of the girl, just by talking,
    still had not talked to her.  I felt like it should have been the
    first thing he did when he got in from work.  It really perturbed
    me because when by 8:00 we still hadn't heard anything from them,
    we went to them to find out if they had found them.  The father
    was next door talking to a neighbor, the kids were out riding bikes,
    and the mother had gone to get beer from the grocery store.  I felt
    like they should have been dealing with it then.  Not at 9 or 10
    o'clock last night (I know, this is not my child, but let's be
    reasonable). Anyway, the mother told me she felt like the little
    girl had taken all the rings, but I kind of got the impression from
    the father that he wasn't all that sure about it.  Now, how can
    you convince someone to tell you something when you're not sure
    if you believe what you're trying to find out or not.  I will call
    my insurance company today and see what I can find out.  
    
    re .1,
    
    Marge,
    
    That may be a very good idea on the cheap jewelry part.  I don't
    want the child to think that she can steal something and every time
    she gives it back it, she will get a thank you gift in exchange,
    but if it's the only way to get my rings back (selfish me), I'd
    be willing to give it a shot.
    
    re .2,
    
    --David,
    
    Thanks for the encouragement.  I know I'll never be able to "replace"
    them per say, but sure enough, the mother told me to figure out
    how much they owed me for them and to let her know.
    
    re. 3,
    
    Alison,
    
    The mother agrees that her child is the likely candidate to have
    taken the rings, but she says she talked to her until she was blue
    in the face and told her that we or anybody else could have her
    put in jail for stealing.  Still to no avail.  I imagine the mother
    is as sick over this as I am.
    
    re. 4,
    
    I'm glad you got your class ring back.  I wish Chris' parents were
    more like the one's you described.  But, I feel like if the little
    girl tells her daddy that she didn't take the rings, that will be
    the end of discussion.  We'll just have to wait and see how things
    go over the weekend.
    
    
    
    I could go on and on about what I would do "if" this were my child,
    but I won't get into that.  (You know the old saying, "People with
    out kids always have advice to give on raising them".   :-)  )!!!
    
    Virginia

    	You may be able to get additional input by entering the base
    	note in TERZA::PARENTING.
      
    Mary Jo

    re .6
    
    Could someone please tell me how I can move my base note to the
    parents conference, or do I have to re-type it?  Good idea, thanks.
    
    re .7
    
    I don't know why she keeps insisting she thought it was her ring.
    To my knowledge, she doesn't even have any play jewelry, much less
    the real stuff.  I'm sorry you weren't able to get your stuff back,
    and it was a tough break that the kid got caught up in the stealing
    routine and ended up arrested.  It just breaks my heart to think
    of things like that.  
    
    
    BTW,  my insurance has a $250 deductible, but I will have to have
    a police report and I feel like they might want to talk to the little
    girl.  Do you think this might do her more harm than good or more
    good than harm??  I want her to think that the police are her friends
    if she ever gets lost, etc.  I don't want to scare her in that way,
    but I would like to scare her into (1) telling them where my rings
    are, and (2) keep her from doing to again.  Any input on this?
    
    Virginia

    
    to copy your note
    
    select note 690
    
    at the notes> prompt type EXTRACT NOTE.TXT
    
    open the parenting conference
    
    at the notes> prompt type WRITE NOTE.TXT
    
    I wish you luck, as I have no useful advice to offer...
    
    /. Ian .\

    Virgina,
    
    This is what I would do. Go to your basenote and type extract
    /noheader.  (The /noheader removes the =wn= conference header.)
    You will be prompted for a file name. Name your file anything
    that seems reasonable to you...my.txt is good. Then you will
    be prompted for a note number. Enter the number of the basenote
    690.0.
    
    This creats a file at your DCL ($) level. Go to the DCL level ($)
    and edit your text in anyway you find necessary (at the $ prompt
    type edit my.txt).

    Then go back into notes and open the conference you wish to enter
    the note into. 
    
    Since this is a new note type write my.txt (or whatever you named
    your file). This will enter the text you created at the $ as a new
    note. You will be able to edit and then be prompted for a title
    just like a note that you write directly into the conference.
    
    You can reply to an existing note with text created outside the
    file similarly - the only difference being that you have to be
    reading the note you want to enter the text into and you use
    reply my.text rather than write.
    
    You can use the same procedure to correct errors in a note that
    you entered (deleting the original after extracting it of course).
    
    There are other ways to do this - what I've described is what I
    generally use.
    
    Bonnie

    If her mum told her that "she could be put in jail for stealing", I'll
    bet anything you like that that's where the block is.  A kid that age
    is still foggy on a lot of concepts (such as "private property") but
    they're pretty good at understanding stuff such as anger and that if
    they admit that they did whatever mommy is mad about they might be sent
    away from home as punishment.  That'd scare us, too!
    
    
    To copy a note to another conference, do this while reading the note:
    
    	extract/buffer notes$edit
        open <conference name>
        <go to the place you want to put it>
        answer/last <or if you want to make it a basenote, "write/last">
    
    						=maggie
    

    
    
    Why don't the parents of the girl do a massive search in their
    house, car, girls room etc.  There are only so many places that
    a little girl could put something like this.  Have them check the
    clothes (pockets) she was wearing, the laundry hamper etc.  Re-tracing
    the crime just might help.
    
                           Donna

    Re .9, .10, and .11,
    
    Thanks!!  I didn't know there were so many ways to do this!!!
    
    Re .12
    
    Donna,
    
    Oh, her mother has already searched her closet, her drawers, her
    clothes she had on, the washer, the dryer, under the cushions, in
    the truck, etc.  I feel pretty certain either she has hid them,
    either in the house somewhere, outside, or at the babysitters,  or
    has given them to another child. 
    
    Virginia 

    
    
>    BTW,  my insurance has a $250 deductible, but I will have to have
>    a police report and I feel like they might want to talk to the little
>    girl.  Do you think this might do her more harm than good or more
>    good than harm??  I want her to think that the police are her friends
>    if she ever gets lost, etc.  I don't want to scare her in that way,
>    but I would like to scare her into (1) telling them where my rings
>    are, and (2) keep her from doing to again.  Any input on this?
 

How close of a friend are these people to you? If you do the above
there's a good chance that they won't be any more and it could scare
her into never telling where she put them. Perhaps a better way to 
explain it to her would be to ask her how she would feel if someone
took her "special toy". You may beable to get her to understand.   

dave

    re .14
    
    Dave,
    
    I've got to admit, these are semi-close friends.  They are a couple
    that my husband used to run around with in his younger and wilder
    days.  He outgrew that way of life, but I don't think they really
    have.  He ran into the guy about a year ago at a parts store and
    they recognized each other after not seeing one another after around
    12 or so years.  In the year that I have known them, we've been
    to their house 3 or 4 times and they've been to our house 3 or 4
    and we've been camping together once.  I'm not close to them at
    all, and I really feel like they would be offended and more than
    likely tell me no if I asked if I could talk to their daughter,
    alone.  To me, the fact that the father did not immediately talk
    to her about this when he got home from work shows me that either
    he is really not concerned with it, doesn't see the importance in
    it, or doesn't think the girl did it.  My husband's relationship
    with the couple consists mainly of talking about old times, (I don't
    think they were close friends in the past, just friends of mutual
    friends) or talking to the guy about working on cars, bikes, etc.
    Neither of us feels close enough to them to suggest that they try
    to discipline her in one way or another.  I'm trying to be as nice
    about this as I possibly can.  If an argument is provoked I may
    never get my rings or any compensation for them.  I really love
    kids, (yes, I eventually want some of my own) and I'd hate to do
    anything to traumatize this little girl.  
    
    Virginia

    Re .0, .5, I have to say that I think you are being too easy on
    the little girl and her parents.  At this point, why do you even
    care if these people stay your friends?  If the mother thinks her
    daughter took your rings, but she can't find out where they are,
    then I think she has a moral obligation to, at least partially,
    and in payments if necessary, reimburse you for your financial loss.
     If she isn't willing to do this, then if I was in your place, I
    wouldn't even want them in my home again.  I'd make it clear that
    they weren't welcome, in fact.  
    
    How well can you trust these people?  What's their financial situation?
     
    I hope you at least get your money back through your insurance.

    I feel strongly about this because I really love rings, but if I
    felt absolutely certain that a kid took any of my rings, I wouldn't
    care how much I scared the kid or what happened in her future, I'd
    threaten her life if she didn't tell me what she did with them.
     (If I could get away with it, I'd gladly murder anybody who ever
    took any of my favorite rings!)
    
    (My other feeling is thank god my daughter never did anything like
    this.  What do you do if your own kid does something you'd want
    to kill another kid for doing?!)
    
    Lorna
    

    Why doesn't your husband deal with them, if he's closer to them.
    
    Have him explain how IMPORTANT it is to you that you get the rings
    back.  And if they still won't cooperate, get the name of the
    babysitter, and the name of the teacher of the child's classes,
    and the name of the child's friends, and ask the teacher and the
    children's parents if they have any idea where the ring could be
    (explain the situation, suggest that there is no punishment or
    incrimination attached, and that ALL YOU WANT are the rings...NOTHING
    else)  - offer a reward to anyone who finds them.
    
    If THEY won't go after them, YOU should.  And make sure to find
    out who the babysitter is, too.....I'm sure she'll understand your
    brief and may  have overheard the girl talking about them, or seen
    her playing with them.
    
    -Jody
    

I think Jody's idea is best:

>    Why doesn't your husband deal with them, if he's closer to them.
    
You should *not* talk to the little girl. You are pretty 
upset about this -- naturally -- and the child will undoubtedly 
sense this and say nothing helpful.

About having a police officer talk to the child.  Don't.
If she won't tell mom or dad ... she is hardly going to discuss 
this rationally with a police officer.  (The kid is six; not an
adult.)

Where are the rings?  Judging from my own kidhood and my friends,
I put everything I loved dearly in some type of little box, everything 
from a cardboard jewelry store ring-box to a shoe box.  If you can
chat the mom up casually about this, ask/suggest she look in the
little boxes.  (Also, unless she came to your house with pockets or 
a toy purse, she may have dropped them in the car seat.)

Above all, keep the kid calm.  The more worried the child,
the smaller the likelyhood for recovery.  Good luck.

    From my teaching days, I found that kids were the most closed-mouth
    when they were afraid of the disapproval of peers.
    
    I wouldn't be at all surprised if she gave them to some of her friends,
    and is too ashamed to ask for them back.
    
    It wouldn't surprise me if this is a kid with self-esteem issues
    who thinks that "gifts" may buy her friends...?
    
    I think the mother might be able to make a list of friends the girl
    had seen since being at your house that day.  It might be good to
    let the mother talk to those friends directly and privately.
    
    I also would be angry about the father's laid-back attitude towards
    this incident.  Since the child had one ring, and the others are
    missing, I believe that the parents should be responsible for getting
    to the bottom of this.  As a parent, I would feel very responsible.  
                                                                
    Can you sketch pictures of the other rings to help identify them?
    
    Good luck.
    
    Holly
    
    

    There's an article on children and lying in the most recent "psychology
    today".  The most pertinent thing it said to this instance is that
    children around the age of 6-8 have a great fear of punishment for
    lying, so they will seldom admit to a lie (it said a lot of other
    things, too, of course).
    
    Embarassedly, I add a personal note.  When I was 11 or 12, I "borrowed"
    a piece of clothing from my sister, and when it was discovered missing
    I totally denied having any knowledge.  I stuck to my denial until it
    became obvious (as I believe it has become obvious in your case) who
    the culprit was.  My parents grounded me (except for school, of course)
    and took away TV privileges until I revealed where the taken item was.
    Believe me, once I knew I was not getting away with anything (it only
    took a few hours), and I knew they knew I had taken it without asking,
    I returned it.  They didn't punish me after that, but the shame
    for having upset my sister and my family, and being labeled a "liar"
    and ruined a good quantity of trust, did the job even better than
    they could have.
    
    The parents must take sterner measures with the child.  The more
    time passes, the farther the rings could have gone....
    
    -Jody
    

    Well, Folks, since the parents have not bothered to contact us at
    all regarding this matter (since the mother brought my class ring
    home), my husband went over to their house on Saturday to see what
    was going on.  Now, they're saying that they don't think their daughter
    stole my rings (yes, I guess my class ring walked over there and
    laid down in the kid's bedroom floor).  I really don't know what
    all was said, but they did call the little girl in the house and
    ask her in front of my husband why she got my class ring.  This
    time she didn't say she thought it was hers, she said she didn't
    get it, her little brother did.  My husband said the parents did
    not say a word to her, they did not ask her why she said one thing
    and then changed her story, they sent her back out to play.  So,
    he asked them what they planned to do about it.  The father said
    he didn't plan on doing anything about it, as far as he was concerned,
    the matter was closed.  So, my husband told them he would give them
    until today to either come up with my rings or some sort of
    compensation or he would call the police.  They told him to call
    the police, to go next door and call right then if he wanted to
    (they don't have a phone).  Then, they mother said, "That's not
    fair, I brought the class ring home".  I think these people are
    totally irresponsible; we tried to avoid subjecting their child
    to "having the police called on her", but when you get this "I just
    don't really give a shit" attitude, what do you do?  We called the
    police yesterday and made out a report, the detectives are suppose
    to go over there today.  What makes people act this way?  If you're
    going to have kids, you've got to be responsible for them.  I'll
    keep you posted as to what's next.
    
    Virginia

    I may sound cold and heartless, but a six year old thief will probably
    grow into an adult thief if she thinks that she can get away with it.
    I would still file a police report. You have proof of where one ring
    went, and that's something for the police to go on. And I probably
    wouldn't let the child in the house again unescorted, and would
    definitely keep jewelry out of plain sight.
    
    Eric

    re .23
    
    Eric, 
    
    We must have been writing at the same time!!  I did file a report
    (.22) and I do not plan on having either the child or the parents
    to my house again, considering the attitude the parents have taken.
    This has definately taught me a lesson; just because it's my house
    doesn't mean I can leave things any where I want to (althouth I
    should be able to) because you don't ever know who may come over.
    
    Virginia

    
    	It's strange how different parents respond to incidents like
    	this...
    
    	When we lived in Arizona, there was an incident where a group of
    	6 and 7 year olds broke into a YMCA that was right next door to
    	their apartment complex.  They didn't steal anything.  It was a
    	very hot day, and they wanted to use the soda pop machine, but
    	the Y was closed for a holiday (so the kids jimmied the lock
    	open, put their money into the machine, took their soda pop
    	and left.)
    
    	When the first parent discovered what happened, he called the
    	police himself to report it (and the police went to talk to the
    	parents and all the kids involved.)
    
    	The kids weren't charged with anything, but it was important for
    	them all to know that what they did was wrong (and why.)  The
    	parent who reported them (including his own 6 year old) did the
    	right thing.
    
    	It's too bad that the parents of the child mentioned in this
    	note don't have the same sense of what a huge message she is
    	getting from their response to this situation.
    
    	I hope the rings can be recovered!  Good luck!

    In the 11 years I was a police officer in NYS, I say this very attitude
    in parents all too often. I remember one incident where we brought home
    a drunk 14 year old girl at 2 AM, only to have the parents complain why
    the cops were harassing their daughter. Its a sad world out there to
    bring children into.
    
    Eric

    I'm so mad, I could scream.  I just spoke to the police detective
    that my police report was turned in to.  They're not even going
    to go over there and talk to the parents or the child.  He said
    the typical "we don't have enough man power to follow up on every
    larceny case we receive".  They will make a report that it was a
    theft, but not do anything about it, because since they returned
    the one ring, they felt that the parents were acting in good faith
    by returning it.  I mean, it would possibly be different if I told
    them we had 50 people at our house that day and I wanted them to
    question each and everyone of them; but I gave them the people's
    name and address!!  This just seems so unfair to me!!
    
    Virginia

    A good escalation is often a call to the mayor's office...or even a
    newspaper.  In both cases the subject should be the police and their
    inability (let unwillingness be inferred, otherwise you'll get them
    pissed at you too) to even act when facts are given and the case is
    straightforward.						
    
    						=maggie

    Another alternative to activate the police is a letter  to the 
    board of Selectmen and the Chief of Police.  They have evidence
    staring them straight in the face, I don't know if your police
    department has a juvenile division but they should be handling it
    if so.  Time is running though and swift action must be taken.
    
    These "friends" don't seem too concerned so I wouldn't be too concerned
    about their welfare.  My fiancee lost her diamond from the setting
    in a horse riding arena (dirt), she was devastated but we found
    it do to quick action and a lot of luck.
    
    Do what you must at their expense.

    Well, I have talked to my husband since I wrote my note this morning
    about the police not doing anything.  He seems to think that it
    may be best that they did not talk to them because if they had said
    the kid flushed them down or toilet or put them down the drain in
    the sink at OUR house, the insurance company may not have paid off
    because they only cover theft or fire for my jewelry.   True, even
    though they won't be "replaced" EVER, at least I am getting some
    compensation out of it this way.  HOPEFULLY the insurance won't
    screw me up now.  I want to just beat people that act this way and
    take their children away from them because they're not doing the
    children a bit of good raising them the way they are.  I've always
    been a firm believer in what goes around comes around, so they'll
    get their's someday.
    
    Virginia

    A recent family incident kind of brings this to a head. For my son's
    birthday, his grandparents (wife's family) were visiting with my niece.
    When it was time to leave, she removed some items from their hotel room
    and then asked my son why he didn't take some. My inlaws said that he
    can't because he would get in trouble with his father if he took
    something. So according to them, stealing is ok unless your parents say
    its wrong and you'll get in trouble. At least my son knows that
    stealing is wrong under ANY circumstances.
    
    Eric

    
    re .30: Theft is the act of depriving an owner of the possesion
    or use of their property.
    
    If a child or anybody else takes your property from your control
    and disposes of it, even by flushing it down the toilet in your
    home, they have still stolen it, and as such your insuyrance is
    liable to reimburse you for the loss.
    
    /. Ian .\

    re .33
    
    Thanks for that info, Ian.  We weren't aware that the insurance
    co. had to look at it that way.
    
    Virginia

    I would think that you would have a great case for small claims
    court.
    
    Jeff

    re .35
    
    Jeff,
    
    Even if my insurance pays off?
    
    Virginia

    If your insurance company pays off, they can recover against the person
    who stole the rings; you can't recover both the rings and their value.
    
    I would most definitely talk to a lawyer if you're thinking of suing.
    There are some areas in which you need to understand the law and the
    probability of winning before you start.  Trying to sue the parents for
    the child's action, for one thing, and there may be a problem with
    proof -- you have only circumstantial evidence.
    
    The above is not legal advice -- I am not an attorney.

      I would rather restituition from the parents through legal action
    verses then through insurance.  Insurance companys have a habit
    of increasing your deductable once you file a claim.  Our house
    was burglarized last year, we filed a claim and collected.  However
    two months later our deductable went up.
      I would imagine that you would have a good case against the family.
    They have already admitted taking one ring.  You stated all the
    rings were together before they were found to be missing.  The natural
    deduction would be that whomever took the one ring, took them all.
      Talking to a lawyer would be a good idea in order to find out what
    your chances are.
    
    Good luck
    
    Jeff                                                   
    

    re .38
    
    Jeff,
    
    I have spoken to an attorney and she said that since the police
    felt like the parents returned the one ring "in good faith" that
    the judge probably would, too.  I feel like the police, attorneys,
    and judges are all in together.
    
    Virginia

    Even though the ring returned "in good faith" was, in all likelyhood,
    the least expensive one?
    
    What a disgusting situation.  I say call another lawyer.
    
    Carol
    

    I believe that you can represent yourself in small claims court.
    Alot of attorneys would try to disuade you from persuing a case
    such as this because of the low monetary value.  If it were me,
    based on what you have said, I would file in small claims and represent
    myself.  It may cost you a days pay, but you have at least tried.
    
    Good luck
    
    Jeff  

    any update on this sad story?

    
    Bear in mind that I know considerably more about British law than
    US law, and though I studied law at University I am not qualified...
    
    'Theft' is a common law crime (as opposed to the various felony
    theft and larceny crimes that are criminal matters), and as such
    is essentially the same in Britain and America. In British law you
    have a curious situation that if the offender is prosecuted for
    the theft in criminal court you may not be able to recover the loss
    in civil court. Indeed that might in fact be true of an American
    court also. In any event you may be able to recover more in an action
    for negligence against the parent than suing the child for theft.
    
    However there is a peculiarity here. I posed this case as a curio
    to a relative of mine who practices at the British bar, and this
    is his reply (heavily paraphrased)...
    
    You cannot recover civil damages because of the theft itself, that
    is a matter for the insurance process. However it is apparent that the 
    theft was committed by a minor whose custodial guardian was present at 
    the time. That guardian has a duty of care to control their child at
    all times, and a probable realisation that the child is of an age and 
    inclination to take and keep things which do not belong to them (a 
    'magpie instinct'). You might not be able to sue the thief (a minor 
    child in any event), but you could sue the guardian for negligence in 
    that they didn't control and monitor the child and that as a result
    you suffered loss which was not unreasonable for the guardian to
    foresee. Hence you could sue in small claims court either for the
    total loss, [including medical damages for the emotional discomfort 
    suffered and even possibly (though unlikely) punitive damages], or 
    you could claim on your insurance and then sue in the small claims
    court for your deductible, plus increases in your premium and
    deductible in future (say for 5 years) that result from the claim.
                                                
    /. Ian .\
    
    

    Ian,
    
    Thanks for that bit of info.  We have seriously thought of going
    to court with this, but I don't know if I want to take the time
    off work to go to court (we've just recently gone through this process
    with my husband's former employer who wrote my husband a month's
    worth of bad checks).  My insurance did replace the rings (no, not
    the sentimental value) and I did get my class ring back (the one
    to me that could never be replaced).  We have not seen these people
    any more, although they only live two blocks away, and to me if
    I had not taken the rings or thought my kid had taken them, I would
    be trying to find out if the people they had belonged to had found
    them.  It just makes them look even more guilty to me.  The monetary
    value of the rings wasn't that great, just the sentimental value
    and there is no way to replace that.  I could go to court and try
    to get reimbursed for the deductible but I wouldn't get paid for
    being off work (I'm not full time) and I think it would be more
    of a hassle than it would be worth.  
    
    Thanks for all the notes of advice and all the support and caring
    I have received.
    
    Virginia  

    There is another advantage to writing to the mayor, writing to the
    police chief, threatening to sue, and actually suing.  To take the
    cynical view:  it is the nuisance value.  The parents will once
    again be reminded of this incident.  If you go to court, they too
    will have to go to court.  If nothing else, the thought of paying
    an attorney may cause them to fork over some compensation or better
    yet put more pressure on the child to 'fess up.  He will also lose
    a days work in going to court.  It sounds doubtful that he or she
    runs a business but if they do a letter in the local newspaper
    (ostensibly questioning the attitude of the police in this case)
    may raise the spectre of customers avoiding the store because of
    this controversy.  Obviously if he and/or she is a wage-earner than
    there is less leverage but even then if it is a local employer
    especially if his or her job causes them to deal with the public
    you may have some leverage.  Shake the tree, you may be surprised
    at what drops out.
    
    Additional thought:  this may not be the first time this has occurred.
    Other neighbors may have had a similar experience.  A little publicity
    could get some sort of community action rolling.  Happy thought:
    a friend of the child spills all the beans.

    I believe .43 eloquently points out how different the British and
    American legal systems have evolved to be.

	After reading through all of this topic, it occurs to me that the
	6-year-old is being accused of taking these rings on the word of 
	her mother.  I can see a potential alternate scenario.  I'm *NOT* 
	accusing anyone of anything; just pointing out that you don't really 
	*know* a lot about what happened:

	The mother sees a pile of rings.  Looks like a few bucks' worth.
	So, she picks them up.  Finding that the class ring was unsellable,
	she returns it with some lame story about the girl having picked it
	up.

	One thing I learned sitting on a grand jury is that most criminals 
	are stupid; they don't think things through.  Of course returning 
	your class ring would make you expect the rest to be found!  But
	you have no proof.  The 6-year-old may have taken the rings; on
	the other hand, maybe she was told to say her brother found them
	(since the parents didn't remember what happened in the first place).

	In short, I wouldn't necessarily blame the child; she may have had 
	nothing to do with it, and if she did, it's still her parents' 
	fault for not handling it better.  However, I don't think you have
	much of a chance in court...

	Beverly

    re .47
    
    Beverly,
    
    That's exactly what we thought when it was suggested that we try to
    take them to court.  I guess the worst part of it is that we saw them
    at a public social event Saturday night and since they both appeared
    extremely intoxicated, we decided to leave because they are both
    quite loud and boisterous when drinking and we didn't want a scene
    (probably would have ended up a fight).  It's hard to turn around and
    walk away, especially when we had just as much right to be there as
    they did.  How else can you handle a situation like this?
    
    Virginia