Conference turris::womannotes-v2

    More an observation than a comment. . .in some places, you can
    hear the same from even younger kids, much younger; some years
    ago I had a neighbor who's children (boys & girls, 5 to 10 yrs.)
    routinely made "Nice butt" sound polite.
    
    Personally,  I believe it's behavior that's symptomatic of the 
    problems in our culture (for me, the notion of only one "core"
    problem doesn't seem to fit the data; I just don't think it's
    "simply" a "moral" problem or just a "communications technology"
    problem).  If I knew exactly what all those problems were, how 
    they interweave, and exactly how they affect us all, and, of course,
    how we could fix them, I'd have long ago spoken those words of wisdom.  
    
    Then too, although the anecdote does strike me in my "something's-
    wrong-in-this-society" center, I can't say for certain that what
    we're seeing aren't growing pains of a culture on it's way to
    a much better world.
    
    At least we can all say we lived in interesting times. . .
    
    Steve

    Re .0, it's better than hearing, "Fat ass!", right? :-)
    
    Lorna
    

 I definitely can understand your consternation with the uncouth little
brat. He probably needs to get his mouth washed out with soap. 
Unfortunately, children learn what they see, and if dad yells "Nice butt,"
junior is likely to follow suit. 

 On the lowest level, take it as a compliment. At least the kid knows how
to "assess" buttocks, and you have obviously passed the test. :-)

The Doctah

    
    	Do you think the boy was acting shameless by soliciting a response
    from you with his comment? Would a healthy sense of shame have
    "prevented" him from speaking to you thusly? I'd tend to think so,
    and I assume the boy was operating from his internalization of a
    dysfunctional message given to him concerning his sexual identity.
    
    	When someone acts shameless, it's usually because they've been
    shamed to the core.                
    
    	Joe Jas

    
    re .3-
    
    "Come here, you little brat! Shame on you - you need to be *tortured* 
    for what you've done! Bad boy!!!"
    
    Children learn what they see alright...
    
    "Doktor" indeed.
    
    	Joe Jas
    

    A friend of mine has two kids, and the youngest who's 9 years old came
    home one night for dinner after watching MTV and whispered into Mom's
    ear that "George Michael has really cute buns."
    
    When I was that age I didn't really notice things like that at all. 
    Just think about what these kids think about/notice before they start
    vocalizing it to us old fogies!

    Re .2
    
    True, Lorna.  Very true!
    
    Re .3
    
    I can't help but think that your node name (WAHOO) is appropriate!
    
    K.C.

           
    
    Gimme a break. I can't believe those of you who think it should
    be taken as a COMPLIMENT! I'm with Joe Jas.
    
    Roberta

    re .8, well, I was joking, although, I have to admit if somebody
    is going to comment on my appearance, I'd rather it be favorable.
    
    I was brought up to believe that it is rude to comment on another
    person's appearance unless a) I want to tell someone I know that
    they look nice, or I notice a stranger (at work or whatever) standing
    near me and I feel compelled to compliment them on their outfit
    or whatever (face to face in a normal speaking voice) or (b) a friend
    or family member specifically asks me my opinion, then if I had
    to I could make a negative comment, as politely as possible.
    
    Of course, I think it's rude for a stranger to shout out comments
    about another person's appearance.
    
    Famous people, such as George Michael, are a different matter. 
    Anyone who has seen his "Faith" video, and the close up of his very
    cute buns (the kid was right!) would get the impression that he
    is well aware that he has an appealing body, and although he is
    also very talented, the fact that women think his buns are cute
    hasn't hurt his career.  I mean, if he doesn't want us to comment
    on his buns, he shouldn't stick them in our face on TV!  He's asking
    for it! (and getting rich off it!)
    
    It wouldn't bother me if my daughter commented on a rock stars buns.
     She has.  After she saw "Rattle and Hum" she informed me that Bono
    has, in addition to awesome musical talent and political views,
    "great buns."  (personally, I was pleased with her taste in men
    since I like Bono a lot myself!)
    
    However, if I ever heard my daughter shout, in public, to a strange
    man that he had a "cute butt" or whatever, I would be mortified,
    and we'd have to have a talk.  
    
    Lorna
    

    I'm with Roberta.
    
    I don't care to be verbally dissected by ANYone!  Since I was old
    enough to have a figure, I've always *hated* having strangers comment
    out loud on it.  I think it's a mark of a person's boorishness to
    holler out their sleazy little opinions about another person's 
    appearance.
    
    This is one of *my* hot buttons.  I realize that, in a lot of cases,
    "Monkey see, monkey do"--if Daddy does it, the kid's going to think
    it's just fine and dandy to do it himself.  
    
    I never thought I would say this, but when I was growing up (oh,
    no!!   I sound just like MY dad!!), any kid who did what this one
    did could expect to have HIS 'nice butt' marched back to his house
    so his folks could tan it.
                                      
    Sheesh,
    
    Jane

    I just remembered something:
    
    This particular kid, about a year ago, was standing at his bus stop
    (which was just outside his house) throwing things at cars.  Well,
    he just happened to throw a ball (football, I think) at my husband's
    car.  My hub stopped, and told the kid not to do that, as someone
    could get hurt.  Then the kid's father came out yelling at my husband
    something to the tune of "Don't tell my kid what to do!  Don't yell at 
    my kid!"  When my hub tried to explain what his precious darling
    was doing, the father kept yelling and proceeded to call the police.
    
    Monkey see, monkey do?  Probably right.  I don't know that that
    kid will learn anything as mundane as etiquette.
    
    K.C._who_is_neither_flattered_nor_insulted_by_wolf_whistles.

    re:.12
    
    If I had been your husband at the time, I would've told off the
    father, saying, "Go ahead, call the police, because if you don't,
    I will, and I'll tell them your child is endangering traffic!"
    
    --- jerry

    I wasn't there, my account is from my husband.
    
    The fact was, that was just what happened.  Or, rather, when Daddy
    went to call the police, my hub told him that when the police got
    there, he would tell them about the traffic endangering.
    
    I'm sorry if this is sketchy.  I got refreshed last night when I
    mentioned it to my hub.
    
    But back to the topic at hand, shouting things like "Nice butt"
    to ANYONE is classless (except for maybe construction workers ;^>).
    But I wasn't offended by the yelling itself, but by the fact that
    it was just a child. (God, I sound old.)
    
    For the record, I would have ignored it if it was an adult yelling
    it out, too.
    
    K.C.

>    But back to the topic at hand, shouting things like "Nice butt"
>    to ANYONE is classless (except for maybe construction workers ;^>).


I'm related to a "classy" construction worker and I'm sure you didn't mean
that the way it sounded. 
    

    My interpretation is that it sounds like a kid trying to be "cool"
    and "grown up."  The behavior he's aping could have come from TV
    or movies or older friend/neighbor.
    
    I agree that the best response is to show no reaction.  Drives 'em
    nuts if they're really out to get your goat.

    
    	I'm sorry, but the "real" problem this child has seems to have
    gone right over everyone's head. The father's yelling at someone
    "accusing his son" of misbehavior is *key* to the formulation of
    what I feel is going on. I feel "family dysfunctionality" from what
    I read about this situation.
    
    	No child's father would yell at someone correctly accusing 
    their child of misbehavior, unless it was *also* true that the father
    could not deal with the child's behavior effectively himself. By
    "virtually" pointing this out to the father, the pain of the
    realization of his *own* shortcoming invoked his response of anger
    - likely the only_choice_he_had in reaction.
    
    	As was demonstrated, the father's "healthy sense of shame" did
    not prevent him from making a scene in the neighborhood. Likewise,
    the child has none of this and acts "shameless" in his behavior.
    I'd expect a "healthy person's" reaction to be something like: "OK, 
    thank-you for pointing this out, I'll see what I can do about it".
    Only when you know you cannot do anything about it, would you "flip
    out" over the situation. 
    
    	Joe Jas             

    Alternatively, Joe, the father finds his son's behavior to be the
    same as his own, and therefore not objectionable, and therefore
    *definitely* not to be corrected.
    
    This too would be family dysfunctionality, and multi-generational
    at that, probably.  So you do have the right target, and the correct
    ultimate source of the father's anger.
    
    						Ann B.

 In another vein yet under the same category of "younger every year," I'd like
to make a comment about young girls (Oh boy :-) It seems that every year, they
are trying to act sexy at a younger age. They put on a ton of make-up, wear
nylons, and in general dress in very scanty clothes. What are we pushing our
children to when we have kids with makeup and nylons in first grade? There
is absolutely no surprise to me that children are having sex earlier and
earlierin their lives; look at how sex is used in advertising. Buy a car, get
a scantily clad beautiful blonde as an option. It is becoming increasingly
disturbing to me that such emphasis is placed on sex to the very young.

 For what purpose does a second grader need to look sexy?  The worst part is
that most of them don't know what they're doing. And it kills me, because
when "everybody else" is doing it, it makes it so much more difficult to say no 
to your own. 

 On yet another tack- why is it so important to "look good" to girls, that
guys have taken to using steroids to increase their musculature? We have
seen alot of denunciation of men regarding women's looks in high esteem,
what about this? Is it so important to women to have a man with a "nice bod"
that we have  to have teenage boys risking their health to bulk up?

 Where are all the values of being nice, intelligent, caring, trusting, etc,
when we can't get by the "looks" thing?

OK- swirling flame off.

 I just wonder...

The Doctah

    Doctah:
    
    Righteous swirling flame!
    
    It's true!  I remember thinking of nylons being a "big thing" when
    I was 12.  (For the record, I'm 24 now).  I started wearing make-up
    at 15 (with my older sister's instruction).  I will admit to platform
    shoes and a purse in elementary school, but my clothes weren't focused
    on "The Latest Fashion".  And now I see 10 year old girls talking
    about having boyfriends, 8 year olds buying and using make-up, and
    6 year olds, boys AND girls, worried about "being in style"! 
    
    K.C.

    Todays kids are products of their environments-they're victims of
    circumstance.
    
    Question: Does the media create the behavior or does it just
    perpetuate it?                          
    
    Input Please,
         
    Kate

	It's a positive feedback loop. 

	In 1984 I went to DECUS in Anahiem, and something that struck
	me then was that I didn't notice any children anywhere. There
	were a lot of very small adults, but no children. Now, I
	attributed this to the fact that Anahiem was close to (part of?)
	L.A., and to me, Nashua is a "big city".

	I didn't let go of my own childhood that easily, and still cling
	tenaciously to parts of it, even at age 32. It made me sad to think
	of all the simple things that these people will miss. Maybe they
	have things that I either missed or waited longer for, and 
	sure, it's a value judgment on my part. But I don't claim a right 
	to change the situation, only to be sad about it from one particular 
	point of view.

						Tom_K

    in re .23
    
    It occurs to me that until fairly recently historically children
    were small adults. If you look at historical paintings, for example,
    once out of baby dresses (around 3 or 4) children dressed like 
    minature grown ups. I have read that what we now call the teenage
    years (and view as an extension of childhood) are a creation of
    the 20th century. In the past girls and boys were learning the
    responsiblites of adults and how to handle adult responsibilities
    by the 5-10 year old period, and girls esp were married by 16 or
    17. 
    
    I do agree tho, that the kind of 'adult' roles that we see children
    now taking on...i.e. sexual ones, are not the sort that they assumed
    in the past. Perhaps we should look to increasing our children's
    responsibilities in more productive areas?
    
    Bonnie

    In a sense, I think the adults of each generation always think that
    the teenagers of their day are all going to hell in a handbasket.
     My parents thought that of the teenagers of the 60's, their parents
    thought it of them, and on and on.  It's a very self-righteous feeling
    - "we weren't *that* bad when we were kids."  It's nothing new either.
     It keeps happening over and over with each generation.
    
    Lorna
    

    But we aren't talking about teens.  We are talking about PRE-teens.
    
    K.C.

    RE .26, I think the same applies to PRE-teens.
    
    Lorna
    

    Not necessarily.
    
    Generally, in the past, when you saw a pre-ad (my term for 
    preadolescent) doing something outside the norm for his/her age 
    group, you'd think "Why can't he/she act more like other kids the
    same age?" whereas when you saw a teen doing likewise, all teens
    are "going to hell in a handcart".  (Gee, I like that phrase.)
    Now it is spreading to the earlier age groups.
                                   
    K.C.

                                                               
    	One's set of values comes from who - or what - one spends time
    with. If a child were to spend a year with "Grandpa Jacob", I assume
    the child would come away with a much different value set than for
    the case where s/he spent a year with the TV.
    
    	I'm sure people here have heard the claim: "Television is raising
    our children" There's some truth to this...
    
    	The truth of it is reflected in what's becoming common knowledge
    as far as what's *really important* to a child feeling comfortable
    with him/her self while attending school - his or her *image*. Of
    course, the correct clothing, according to the child's perception,
    is paramount in attaining this image.
    
    	The media quickly realizes the cash value of this, if they could
    make it every kid's obsession, they would stand to mass a fortune!
                                                                      
    	People underestimate the power that TV has over children. I
    can recall from the days of B&W, a particular commercial that had
    to be *altered* at the request of "parent's everywhere". It was
    an Ovaltine or some such "chocolate milk_additive" commercial, where
    it was explicitly pointed out that milk *without* the additive was:
    
    "EEEEEEEEEEEEEWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!!"
    
    ...and milk *with* the additive was:
    
    "MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM!!"
    
    	This caused so many behavorial problem for parents in the
    broadcasting area that the producers of the commercial actually
    dropped "EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!!"
    and replaced it with "MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM!!"
    regarding the taste of "straight" milk...I remember seeing the latter
    commercial, hearing how they "dubbed it in" and also remember my
    mother talking about it with the other "neighborhood wives".
                                              
    	Joe Jas

    Sure brings back memories for me. How important it used to be to
    be exactly like everyone else in my peer group. The pressure was
    tremendous. Looking different in dress, makeup, shoes or type of
    slang you used branded you as *strange*. Age 13 is most memorable,
    every girl must wear a short skirt, a mohair sweater and white go-go
    boots. Eye makeup had your eyes lined with black liner with wings.
    Eyebrows were pencil thin and you wore white lipstick. Hair was
    ratted and sprayed with a can or two of stiff hairspray. Woe be
    to the girl who wore socks and loafers, hair in a ponytail, sensible
    dress to her kness. She didn't fit in, she was snubbed and usually
    hung around with other girls who dressed as she did. Boys ignored
    her completely as a general rule. It didn't matter that she was
    talented or gifted or pleasent...she didn't conform and she was
    an outcast. 
    
    I'm not surprised that it's happening in younger groups now, after
    all, many parents give their children more responsibilities than
    I had as a child. The world seems to move faster today, but again,
    that's my perception.
                                      -sunny-

        The previous note reminded me of a girl that I went to school
    with.  She and I were in several classes together in 7th and 8th
    grade.  She was one of the outcast crowd because she was homely
    and studious, but boy could she write.  I remember having such
    admiration and respect for her whenever she or a teacher would read
    one of her poems or stories.  I never told her that though, I was
    a member of another outcast crowd and I didn't get outside my group
    much.
    
        Well, I left my High School early in my sophomore year and returned
    for my junior year only to find this young woman was now a part
    of the drugs and parties crowd.  I missed hearing her works.  I
    now realize that if some of us who appreciated her for who she was
    had told her, she might have continued in her writing.
    
        The pressure to conform really pisses me off, and I wish that
    there was more that I could do about it.  The worst part is that
    its strongest amoung the kids, and they're our future.
    
    ASP