Conference turris::womannotes-v2

    There will always be biological and physical limitations between
    men and women.  That aside, we need to recognize individual abilities
    and to encourage each person to find their potential.  This begins
    with the role models we present to children, how the media portrays
    men and women, and opportunities available in the workplace.
    
    There are a tremendous number of choices available, and also much
    confusion about roles and expectations.  The old "rules" no longer
    apply, and it is time to move forward and recognize individual
    abilities.
    
    We've come a long way since women were considered chattel and men
    could do as they saw fit.  However, there is still much to be done.
    If you take a look at popular media today, both sexes are still
    being shuttled into traditional roles.  (Next time you're in the
    doctor's office, take a look at one of the "women's" magazines --
    'Good Housekeeping', etc. -- or the ads on daytime and Saturday
    morning TV...where's the progress?)
    
    The bottom line is awareness; both of ourselves and those around
    us.  There's no easy answer, since the "traditional" roles are so
    ingrained.
    
    You've thrown down a rather substantial gauntlet!
    
    Judi
    

    Raise your little girls and your little boys according to ONE GOOD
    bottom line principle.  Don't tell boys "sex with many beautiful
    women is the goal" and  then turn to the little girls and say
    "love with one successful man is the goal".
    
    Doesn't it seem GLARINGLY OBVIOUS that this would produce men who
    are looking for something very different from what  women are
    looking for???   Neither is right - both could be right!  But the
    fact that both are DIFFERENT is the problem!  It's not WHAT they
    are, or what they believe, but rather the fact that their fundamental 
    beliefs are so DIFFERENT!
    
    Trouble is people are looking for adult answers to a problem that
    was created in a child.  The adult doesn't realize that the little
    girl told to wear a dress, keep her legs together, (don't run),
    and be nice and quiet is the passive woman of tomorrow sitting quietly,
    patiently waiting, desperatly hoping, pathetically believing...
       

    
    So far this is what I have understood.  Please correct me if I
    have misinterpreted the prior responses.
    
    1. Don't accept traditional stereotypes when they are imposed
       by the media and society at large.  Push back at them, and 
       discover your own truths. 
       
    2. Empower your children with sensitive and CONSISTENT philosophies
       about relationships and sexuality.
    
    I know my question is a loaded one, but there is so much to be gained
    by exploring the different answers!
    
    TF

    
    
    One thing that would help us become closer is to always keep
    the Golden Rule in mind.  
    
    LRG

    
    This is where we are so far:
    
    1. Push back and challenge traditional gender stereotypes.
    2. Empower children of both sexes with sensitive AND consistent 
       philosophies regarding relationships and sexuality.
    3. Practice the "Golden rule" 
    
    Any others?
    
    TF                
                                          
    

One of things I've noticed for myself is that it is fine to know all
the right ideologies and positions and opinions but living it is
another matter.  So, for myself, the most important thing is to
examine my own process on a moment to moment basis and really see what
is going on.

The conditioning runs deep...

	Three things to work on:

		1) Communication

		2) Communication

		3) Communication














	After that, we should work on communication.


						Tom_K

    I'll start this with ... I M H O ... I happen to feel very strongly
    that the only way we will ever get to a real feeling of equality
    is by doing away with TRADITION. Tradition's role has always seemed
    to me something instituted  by the ruling class to keep the rest of 
    the world in their place (Like:"this has ALWAYS been done this way" 
    or "we NEVER had a woman doing that job", etc)
                 
    So every time we want to do/say/start something we should question
    whether we are doing it because it is right, or because TRADITION
    demands it.
    
    By "Tradition", I mean that same thing that is defined in Webster's 
    Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary, ed. 1987:

TRADITION fr L. tradition-,traditio action of handing over, tradition - more at 
									TREASON

	1) an inherited, established or customary pattern of thought, action
	   or behaviour (as a religious practice or a social custom)
	2) the handing down of information, beliefs and customs by word of
	   mouth or by example from one generation to another without written
	   instruction.
	3) cultural continuity in social attitudes and institutions.
	4) characteristic manner, method or style.


Joana

    IMHO - the best thing we can do is to teach our children
    to see each person they come into contact with as an
    individual...and then take it a step further.  We need to
    see each person as unique and individual in each moment
    in time.  People change.  What I saw in you a moment
    ago is not what will be there now.  If we can all begin to
    view each person as unique and special in any given moment
    in time then there will be no room for assumptions or
    judgements.
    
    Nanci

    As I was reading through the responses to the base note, I was thinking
    about how far we have really come over the last 20 years.  Then
    I read -.10, and shuddered.  Those are the same arguments that were
    used 20 years ago to deny women meaningful positions in the business
    world!  (I know; they were used on me.)
    
    But, hoping that the author of the U.S. News article was reporting
    on some terribly backward part of the world (tho the subject might
    be worth a note of its own), I'll not pursue the potential rat-hole
    but respond to the base note:
     
    Open forums (such as this conference) are probably the best first
    step toward a better understanding of stereotypes, what's real and
    what's not.  (But are there any other such forums, available to
    the average [i.e., non-DEC employee] person?  I haven't found one!)
    
    I get the feeling from reading the many notes and replies that (1)
    women come here to air their deepest concerns and joys, and (2)
    men come here because they want to understand women better.  The
    combined effect is much like consciousness-raising groups I attended
    in the late '60s and early '70s, when women were groping for answers
    to who we REALLY were and how we fit into our society.  At first
    the new roles we were defining didn't feel comfortable -- sort of
    like a new pair of shoes that we knew we'd love once they were broken
    in, but that raised a few blisters in the early days.
    
    Now it's time to extend that same type of consciousness-raising
    to society at large -- female or male -- and explore by talking,
    testing, and trying again the new roles of equality.  It won't be
    a quick fix (changing a tradition never is), and I doubt if any
    of us will live to see the end results, but we have made progress,
    and we can make so much more as long as we continue to communicate
    with each other, listen to what the other is saying, and practice
    the new roles until they feel comfortable.
                                                         
    The main difference between the consciousness-raising of 20 years
    ago and today's is that both men and women will need to try out
    the new roles we're describing.  And those roles may be a bit
    uncomfortable and may raise a few blisters, but we have to believe
    in the long run they will benefit us as a species and that, in time,
    our grandchildren will be comfortable with the equality we envision
    today.
    
    Karen

    
    Here's where we are with this discussion:
                                  
    1. Push back on sex stereotypes. 
    2. Don't give male/female children inconsistent and conflicting
       signals regarding relationships and sexuality.
    3. Use the "Golden Rule."
    4. Practice what you preach, because words are cheap.
    5. I think Tom was trying to say we need to communicate more. 8^)
    6. Don't rely on traditions to determine the appropriate roles
       for women and men.  "Tradition" has denied many people the freedom
       to live as they choose.    
    7. Make a committment to achieving equality between the sexes, and
       improving our relationships.  It may hurt, but the results will
       be worth it.
    
    Great ideas, and I thank you!
    
    TF