Conference turris::womannotes-v1

    Well hello, Hank - how nice to see a friend here from JON::FLYING.
    
    Since I am a rated pilot, I obviously can't think of any good reasons
    why women don't fly.  (And just to spice this conference up a little
    by risking flames from our male participators, I'd even venture
    that we are better suited to flight in many ways...)
    
    Could it be that many women simply can't afford it?
    
    - Susan
    
    p.s. to Hank:  when will you fly that camel out here to the pacific
    northwet?  
    

I don't know if many women can't afford it, but I know I can't.  If I could,
maybe I would, but I suspect I'd rather spend "that kind of money" on other 
things, like extensive foreign travel.  I've got a friend who's nuts about 
flying.

CQ

    
      At the risk of going down a rat hole, could part of the reason
    be that many pilots, like myself, got their training and experience
    thru the Military?  This in itself would somewhat limit  participation
    as the military places restrictions on female pilots.
    

    My father was a fighter pilot, and one of the first things I tried when
    I graduated from college was to join the military as a pilot. Well!
    Firstly, there were few ways for women to learn to fly - taxiing planes
    on the strip, perhaps, or *maybe* flying cargo. But it was all moot,
    for my eyesight was too poor to qualify. Sigh... 
    
    I can't comment on most of the aspects of private-plane society, but I
    suspect that the "airplane widow" syndrome is not reserved for pilots'
    spouses alone. It seems that a lot of people (no idea how many, but
    they do get lots of press coverage) want their spouses to be totally
    devoted to them, to the exclusion of any other interests. The feeling
    usually shows up in women because, until recently, most women got to
    sit home and wait for the men to get back; but there have been plenty
    of examples of men getting irate because their wives were off pursuing
    some interest of their own. I've never understood this; I wouldn't want
    someone to ask me to "prove my love" by giving up something that *I*
    liked and that didn't hurt him, so I'd never ask it of anyone else. 
    
    As for expense - the cost runs to quite a bit more than just the
    license. Any rough figures for the cost of renting a plane, or (gasp!)
    owning one? And it's time-consuming as a hobby; you can't just bop over
    to the airport for a 10-minute spin, especially if you live in a
    metropolitan area. 

    Because of the time and expense involved, I'd say it requires a
    relatively high degree of dedication to fly as a hobby. In fact, I'd
    equate it to keeping  a horse - which, for some reason, seems to appeal
    to women more than men. Hey, maybe all those airplane-widows could go
    off to the nearest riding stable... 

    -b

    RE .1  ( Note no flame ) Just curious, what did you mean by 
           women are better suited to fly. I know about the lower
           center of gravity :-) but could you elaborate.
    
    RE .3  Joe , that may have been true 5 - 10 years ago but now
           there is a fair percentage of females that are flying
           in the military. (at least in the Navy) Many have gone 
           into the airlines as pilots (Fact one was in some commercial
           on TV the other day)
           
           On my way to FLA last month, I bumped into one that was
           currently a rated co-pilot for one of the commuters in NY.
           She was in the outfits uniform and I asked which branch of
           the service she got her training from. Her reply was none of
           them, she had worked her way up to an ATP (Airline Transport
           Pilot) all the way from Private pilot. Now for those of you
           not familiar with the pilot ratings, an ATP is as high as
           you get requiring 2500 hrs +  just to qualify for the test.
           ( which is no piece of cake) My hats off to her for not to
           many people manage to get that rating the hard way such
           as she did. Thats what I call dedication to your chosen
           career.
    
                           Bob B
           (Cherokee 140 owner and B 25 - B 17 warbirds co driver)
       P.S. I agree with .0 there should be more of you ladies out
            and up there with us. :- ) 
    

    This phenomenon is not restricted to piloting.  I've engaged in
    a number of sports where the male-to-female ratio is fairly high.
    However, I *believe* that things are improving all around in this
    respect.
    
    My boyfriend says the same thing that you are saying is true of
    scuba diving (I don't know, I've never tried it).  It is true of
    skydiving (which I have tried).  It is true of rock climbing (which
    I do as much as possible) and it is true of winter backpacking (which
    I also do a fair bit of each winter).  Let me also say that the
    *women* I've met doing these things are a *super* bunch of people!
    One of the things I dearly love is to go rock climbing on the hardest
    stuff I can handle with a woman who is of the same ability, swinging
    leads the whole way.
    
    And, I am so sorry, but I cannot quite answer your question.  I really
    do *not* know why more women don't take up flying and other sports
    such as the ones that I do.  One guess I have is what other topics in
    this file cover.  It may be culturally/environmentally induced.

    	-Ellen

    From what I read in "Air and Space/Smithsonian", flying is a
    dying hobby because of dramatically increased expenses (especially
    including insurance - ask your life insurance agent what your
    rates would be if you became a pilot).  Also, manufacturers are
    withdrawing from the small plane business in favor of larger
    aircraft for business and commercial use.
    
    As for women being rare in this hobby - I would guess it has the
    same causes as the rarity of female race car drivers, truck
    drivers, etc.  Interest in things mechanical is not encouraged
    in women, and it IS an expensive hobby.
    
    					Steve

        .5 re .1:
        
        The military has apprently proven to their own satisfaction
        that women have *substantially* higher resistance to the
        effects of high-G maneuvering, low air pressure, etc.  This
        may well be largely due to the lower body mass while the
        heart and lungs aren't much (if any) different in capacity.
        
        In any case, women would seem to make much better pilots
        for high altitude/high speed fighters and such.  I doubt
        it makes much difference for "hobby flying".
        
        	/dave

    I would love to learn to fly.  I did look into the cost
    of lessons and rentals and it was WAY OVER my budget.
    
    Of course if YOU would like to pay...  ;^)  ;^)  ;^)
    
    If (when) I do learn to fly, I will certainly welcome the 
    camaraderie of other pilots, male and female.
    
    -Nancy

    I love flying, but I'm one of those who couldn't begin to afford
    it, either, at least not at this point in my life.
    
    I have gone up with a (male) friend who has been flying for a couple
    of years, and have thoroughly enjoyed it.  I'm very interested in
    the navigational aspects--how it works, how you find your way at
    night, how you stay out of restricted spaces, and how you fly in
    bad weather.  I think I'd learn to fly if I had the money just to
    satisfy my curiousity.
    
    Does anyone else ever "space out" while driving, and then suddenly
    realize you have been driving on automatic for a few minutes?  I'm
    scared of doing something like that in the air, with disastrous
    consequences at such a high speed.  
    
    My friend tells me that there are old pilots and foolish pilots,
    but no old, foolish pilots...
    
    It's on my list of things to explore further!

    I started flying lessons when I was in high school.  I worked as
    a waitress in the airport coffeshop and was entitled to a discount
    on the lessons.  I got to the point where all my instructor would
    say to me was "Take-off" and "Land" (i.e. almost to solo).  I had
    a terrific time and no one ever insinuated to me that women shouldn't
    fly.  Unfortunately, due to a hand injury and a long streak of bad
    weather my lessons were scheduled so far apart that I spent most
    of every lesson going over what I'd already learned.  I finally
    ran out of money and time and had to quit.  
    
    I had a friend down the street whose parents foot the bill for
    flying lessons for every kid in the family (2 girls, one boy).
    I really envied her, but I understood my parent's position of :
    If you have a hobby, you pay for it.
    
    I'd have to say that the population in general thinks of flying
    as a rich man's sport (and truthfully, it ain't cheap).  Very
    few people get into the sport unless they know someone in it
    already.   I don't know why there aren't more female pilots, the ones
    that I knew certainly weren't treated differently by the male pilots.
    
    A year or two ago I was thinking of taking lessons with my husband,
    but we decided that there were better things to spend the money
    on.
    				Barbara b.

    I have looked, with interest, both at the responses in this file,
    and some of the comments that others have sent me by mail.  Whether
    I have learned anything from all this, I  don't know.  There are
    two responses I think worth commenting on from my own point of view.
    
    .1  My own view of women in aviation pretty well agrees with what
    Susan said.  I am not sure whether women are better adapted either
    physically or psychologically---but it is quite clear that men aren't
    better adapted either.  Call that a dead heat.  
    
    .7 I believe to contain some of the more popular misconceptions
    about aviation as expressed by a ground-pounder.  While it did not
    address my specific question in re women's attitudes toward airplanes
    and pilots, I think it worth answering some of what it said.
    
    A.  General aviation moribund?  Not really.  The problems of the
    "big three" manufacturers---Beech,Piper,Cessna, are not so simple
    as to be measured by the desires of the market.  Womannotes is not
    the forum to go into this in detail---but worth pointing out that
    if you want to buy a good 4-place airplane, $10-20K will get you
    a good, clean, well-equipped flying machine.  Used airplanes do
    not wear out the way used cars do---quite realistic to fly a 20-30
    year old airplane.
    
    B.  "Expensive Hobby"  My Bonanza is no more a hobby than my
    automobile.  It is basic transportation, and if I did not have it,
    I could not live on the East Coast.  Per-mile and seat-mile costs
    are considerably less than for an automobile, and for the trips
    I take, I can fly the airplane solo for about half what the airlines
    would charge.  Try this on the airlines: I can leave my house in
    Andover and be parked at Dulles Airport in Va. in 3 hours 15 minutes.
    I picked Dulles because it has regular airline service.  Lynchburg
    Va. is 4 hours elapsed time---to get there by airline you have to
    change somewhere.  No metal detectors, no long ride to Logan Apt.,
    no parking problems, no gate delays, no wait for baggage (or lost
    baggage).  And the view is superb.
    
    C.  Life insurance and other insurance policies used to be written
    with exclusions for "pilot in command".  This is pretty well pass�,
    and what remains of it is insurance company money-making, not
    actuarially supported.  Those 25-cent machines in airports; and
    the credit card "automatic" insurance things for air travellers
    are gimmicks that are pure profit for insurance companies----and
    are pet peeves of pilots, because they have inspired airplane sabotage.
    
    Economics---yes, one must choose where one is to spend or not spend.
    Serious yachting or skiing aren't cheap either.  
    
    I still wonder why a woman would act as though a 2000 lb. airplane
    parked at an airport were "another woman".
    
    Hank

    re:12
    
    Well Hank, I suppose if she were a 2000 lb. woman and built like
    an airplane, she's have good reason to be jealous.....
    
    I can't see where any normal, secure woman would refer to an
    airplane as "another woman".
    
    kath

To quantify the situation a bit, here's some statistics about licensed
pilots.  Source: 1987 AOPA Aviation Fact Card.

For the year 1985 (latest year complete information available):

Type of
License		Total		# Women		% Women
-------		-------		-------		-------

All		709,540		 43,843		 6.2
Student		146,652		 19,058		13.0
Private		311,086		 17,974		 5.7
Commercial	151,632		  4,185		 2.8
Airline
   Transport	 82,740		  1,184		 1.4
Flight
   Instructor	 58,940		  2,731		 4.6


These number can be see as both good and bad news in some ways:
Unfortunately, the percentage of women decreases in the higher categories,
e.g. only 1.4% of airline-rated pilots vs. 5.7% of private pilots. 
On the other hand, the 13% of students indicates perhaps an increasing
number of women involved in flying -- a situation which has parallels
in other activities which have traditionally been largely male.

I suspect many men were motivated to learn to fly as a kind of macho
thing -- controlling a complex machine, going fast, etc., and these
factors seem less significant in women's interests for cultural or whatever
reasons.  Similarly, more women may hesitate to learn to fly (or even
ride in a small airplane) because of some initial anxiety whereas our
culture teaches men to suppress the fear.  In this situation, that works
to men's advantage because, properly done, private flying is quite safe.

This point may be obvious to some, but others may not be aware of what
is involved in private flying, so I'll make it anyhow:

	There is nothing about learning to fly which would make
	it harder for women than men.  It does not depend on special
	physical strength or stamina, nor on any particular pre-existing
	knowledge.

There can be wide differences in individual students in how quickly
the skills are acquired, but, as a flight instructor, I have not seen,
and have no reason to expect, any consistent difference between men
and women students.  If there are any readers of this file who have
thought about flying but doubted their ability, I hope the above will
put such doubts to rest.

For many of us, flying is a pleasure in itself -- watching miles of
countryside pass by below, flying past a city at night, watching the sunset
from *above* the clouds, going places in an hour that would take all day by
car. These must surely be as rewarding for women as for men.  Sara is a
pilot too, and so we know whereof we speak.

Dan Murphy
  (finally motivated to change my RO status in this excellent conference)

    Well, here we have a subject I know about.
    
    I learned to fly when I was 15 years old - before I had a driver's
    license, you'll notice.  I didn't want to learn;  I thought it was
    boring.  But, my father insisted.  Let's skip the reasons;  I'll
    just mention that he was a pilot.
    
    But, the minute I could walk away from flying I did it.  Not because
    I couldn't fly - I was actually pretty good at it and began to
    enjoy it.  I walked away because I wasn't allowed to be the PILOT.
    Even when I was fifteen, I recognized prejudice.  Women didn't have
    the "right stuff".
    
    Now, I am involved with a commercial pilot who flies for a living.
    His idea of a fun vacation is to fly somewhere 1000ft off the ground.
    I refuse to go;  I'm still not the pilot, I'm the audience.
    
    I have flirted with the idea of relearning a couple of times - you know,
    understanding his job, having something in common, etc.  But the
    bottom line is that it isn't MINE.  I would always be in some man's
    shadow.  Perhaps, someday, when my man doesn't fly and doesn't want
    to.  But then, I still wouldn't have the "right stuff".

    Women don't have the right stuff? try telling that to [almost] any WWII
    vintage RAF pilot.
    
    The following is illustrative but I believe true (the person who told
    me didn't have a penchant for tall stories).
    
    During the Battle of Britain his squadron was switched to night fighting
    and were told they would be replacing their Spitfires with Beaufighter-II
    which frankly worried them as this model was underpowered and considered
    a pilot killer. Consequently they watched with some interest as the
    new planes flew into sight and started to circle the field. The first
    one peeled off the circuit and performed a perfect three point landing
    and rolled to a stop in front of the assembled pilots, and out stepped
     
    
    --- a 5' woman pilot! After that they were honour bound to prove that,
    if she could fly them, then by d**n so could they!
    
    ===
    
    Incidentally RAF Ferry Command was almost totally staffed by women,
    they flew planes in all weathers even when they should have been grounded
    (these replacements were crucial to the survival of the nation, and
    patriotism does wondrous things to rational behaviour). They flew heavily
    overloaded planes from America to Britain through mid-winter storms
    without a co-pilot, navigator or engineer (three less people meant 500
    lb more fuel).
    
    And they had one of the best accident records of any wing of the allied
    air forces.
    
    /. Ian .\

    
    RE . 15   Overall there is a cure for what you are talking about.
              First would be to get your pilots license and the ratings
              for what you want to fly, then your legal to sit left seat 
              as pilot in command.
    
              Second would be to get your own aircraft, contrary to
              popular belief its no more expensive than owning a late
              model car, as has been stated by Hank. Then you can sit
              left seat as PIC anytime you want.
    
              Third would be to get a better understanding with the
              guy your going with. Talk to him about the problem,
              ask his help in getting rated. If hes unsimpathic to 
              your concerns, trade him in for one that is. Theres
              a lot of guys out here that are pilots that would love
              to have a lady friend share in their flying.
    
                                      Bob B