Conference yukon::christian_v7

    I am reading a book about the Illuminati.  Have you read this?  Does
    this give witness to the book?
    
    Fran

	What's EUC ?

	Karen

    re: .1
    
    Fran,
    
        I am interested in reading about Freemasonry/Illuminati from the
    Chrisitian perspective (that is, it's dangers as a cult/movement).
    Can you, or others, recommend a book on this subject?
    
    Mary
    

  <<< Note 58.2 by CNTROL::JENNISON "Jesus, the Gift that keeps on giving!" >>>


	What's EUC ?

European United Countries

(just a guess... but it sounds close)

/Scott

    Mary,
    
    I'll bring in the name of the book I'm reading tomorrow.  
    
    Smiles,
    Fran

    How many of you have heard of ECUs?  It is a European currency (not
    German, not English, etc., but EUROPEAN).  This gives credence to the
    book I'm reading in regard to one world monetary system.
    
    Fran

      Hi Mike,
    
        Yeah, I heard of the same poster and I have an address from
        where one is supposedly supposed to be able to get it.  I
        know someone who tried and failed.  Do you know how to get
        it?
    
        Amazing.  To 'deify' satanism (the goats heads) and to proclaim
        that this time you will succeed in building the tower.
    
        Yup.  Pretty intense.
    
                                                Tony

Agreed, Tony.  Pretty sick, if you ask me.


Sandy

    I might be wrong, but I believe the EUC = European United Commonwealth

�    How many of you have heard of ECUs?  It is a European currency (not
Hey Fran, I have, I have!!!!

I'm *always* last to hear any news, but I heard *this* one.  In fact, I
think there actually are some around somewhere.  Never seen any to hold,
but I've seen them somewhere - probably in the media.  They certainly 
exist.

� ....the new EUC logo 
�    It is a picture of the Tower of Babel being rebuilt.  There are 9-10
�    floors built with a crane mounted near the top to signify it is still
�    under construction.....

Can't remember where I've seen that too.

			from your EUC - European Useless Correspondant ;-)

�    I might be wrong, but I believe the EUC = European United Commonwealth
Community, not Commonwealth.  There isn't any of the other any more....

One person I read on this is Barry Smith, from New Zealand.  I could get 
his international addresses when I'm at home.  His (3) books are somewhat 
over-dramatic in presentation, and I think some of his interpretation is 
dated a bit, but his breadth of coverage is very good. - even if he can't 
always name his sources.  I appreciate the overview.  Freemasonry/Illuminati 
is an area he covers.

What so amazes me about this whole deal is just how it corresponds to the
picture.  Real non-mix iron and clay.  Who wants the EEC (EUC, or whatever
they call it tomorrow)?  No-one that I know.  But there seems to be nothing
can stop it going ahead.  It just stomps on.

They'll be selling us new door-mats soon, to wipe off the mark of the 
beast...
								apologies.....

I think I mentioned about taking my youngest to Sussex University for an 
interview.  That's right down on the English south coast, about as near to 
France & the European mainland as you can get without getting your feet 
wet.  Their arts courses have three elements, given equal priority.
	� Major subject of choice [ aywhere else, this would be ALL of the
	  course. ]
	� Second European language [ unless your major is a language ]
	� European studies

They lay heavy emphasis on learning to be a European citizen.  Even in the
specialist interview with the prof, he emphasised that they don't regard
Europe as a collection of member countries, but as a unit in itself. 

I felt *very* uneasy.

Another good source for updates is what used to be the Omega Letter, now
called something like World Update, issued as a monthly newspaper, but they
also have videos, books, and other materials.  They're based around
Niagara.  I can look up their address from home too.

When I look at the prophecies around Revelation 13 and Daniel, I am 
increasingly convinced that the final antichrist empire is world-wide.  
Like the Club of Rome areas.  Barry's evidence of mark experimentation in 
the antipodes supports this too...  Not just Europe.  Hey, Europe isn't 
such a big deal either.  We haven't got Jerusalem, or anywhere significant 
where those last battles are targetted for.  But the EUC is a key en-route 
sign that we're getting close.

 "When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, 
  because your redemption is drawing near..."  Luke 21:28

Barry, you have to be in on this one.  When we meet in the air, we'll both 
be too excited out of our monds for either of us to say "I told you so"  
;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-)

							Andrew

Re: .10

>> We haven't got Jerusalem, or anywhere significant
>> where those last battles are targetted for. 


Who is the "we" in this sentence?

God's Chosen People "got" all of Jerusalem in 1967, and
that IS a fulfilled prophecy.  

I know of no other "we" who are to "get" Jerusalem to fulfill
prophecy.

Please explain.

Thanks

Bob

� >> We haven't got Jerusalem, or anywhere significant
� >> where those last battles are targetted for. 

� Who is the "we" in this sentence?

Europe, as in EUC.  And Europe, as in 'where I live'.  That's the 'we'.  Me 
and a couple other people who haven't (for the most part) logged in, except 
Erich and Rob....

The context of my remark is that the EUC on its own appears to be a part of 
the fulfilment, but the antichrists domination is wordwide.  The EUC is not 
a 'significant' area.  

Jerusalem, and the return of Israel is a very different aspect of the
fulfilment of prophecy.  And a very exciting and solemn one. 

							Andrew

    
    Re: .12
    
    thanks for the clarification......
    
    New stuff:
    
    The Globe had an article and an editorial about a week ago, covering
    Saddam Hussein's killing of the Shiites in the south of Iraq.
    
    He is damning the Euphrates to dry up the marshes to his armies can get
    to them. The article and the editorial both said these marshes have been 
    there for 6000 years and for the first time they will be dry....
    
    Revelation 16:12
    
    And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river
    Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the
    kings of the east might be prepared.
         
    
    Bob

Too much.  And wow.

If you're interested in the broad sweep of pre-millennial prophesy as seen
coming into fulfillment today, Barry Smith's contact addresses are below,
for U.S., NZ, OZ, UK.  It's worth getting a catalogue, because they (at
least the English) covers a wide range of material. 

For U.S.A.:

	International Support Ministry (Pacific)
	P.O. Box 7766,
	Las Cruces,
	New Mexico 88006,
	U.S.A.

	Phone: (505) 527 4161
	Fax:  (505) 527 4161

For NEW ZEALAND:
	Barry Smith Family Evangelism,
	Pelorus Bridge,
	Rai Valley
	Marlborough
	NEW ZEALAND

	Phone: (054) 26046
	Fax:  (054) 26135
For Australia:
	Barry Smith Family Evangelism,
	P.O. Box 94
	Kurrajong
	N.S.W. 2758
	AUSTRALIA

	Phone: (045) 761201
	Fax:  (045) 761488

For the UK:
	Alpha Omega Ministries (UK)
	Suite 1, First Floor, Mill Court,
	Newport, Isle of Wight,
	PO30 2AA  England

	Phone: (0983) 525503
	Fax:   (0983) 525503

For a monthly update on what's happening in the world (especially from the
U.S. perspective ;-), I find the World Report as much as I can absorb. Oh!
- and Maranatha Alert.... 

World Report is published by Peter Lalonde, from:

P.O. Box 1440
Niagara Falls, N.Y. 14302

Or:

4429, Queen Street
Niagara Falls, 
ON  L2E 2L2 
Canada

Maranatha Alert is primarily for people for whom English is a second 
language, but it makes good reading for me too...  It's published by an 
Australian, Don Stanton, living in India.

India:		Maranatha Revival Crusade
		P.O. Box 2076 Secunderabad 500 003 AP

Australia:	Maranatha Revival Crusade
		Roelands Village, Roelands, W.A. 6226

New Zealand:	Maranatha Revival Crusade
		Pastor Reynold S Bori, P.O. Box 275, PORT VILA

Europe:		Maranatha Revival Crusade
		11, Gledhow Wood Avenue, Leeds, LS8 1NY  U.K.

Spain:		Crusade de Avivamiente Maranatha
		c/- Callejo 7, Vallecas, Mdrid 28018 Espana

U.S.A.		Bro Thomas Mathew, Newspaper Evangelism
		3 Degrasse St, FORDS N.J. 08863

Canada:		Maranatha MRC c/- Mr & Mrs D DeKruif
		Box 1591, Stn A, Kelowna BC V1Y 7V8, Canada

South Africa:	Maranatha Revival Crusade
		110 Villiers Rd, Walmer, Port Elizabeth, 6070 RSA

Malaysia:	Bro N J Rajoo, 19 Jalan Raa'yat
		Merdeka Garden, 30100 IPOH, Perek

Philippines:	Maranatha Revival Crusade
		Gen Segundo Street, KABACAN, Cotoboto 9407

btw - there is also an EUC National Anthem.  It's the 'Ode to Joy', from
Beethoven's 9th Symphony (you know - the bit that goes pom pom pom pom pom
pom pom pom pom pom pom pom pommmmm pa-pom).

That one was always a disappointment to me, because after the grandeur of 
his music, the words didn't rise above praising the medium of expression.  
That was what really opened my eyes to music being for God's praise....

I must look up the words, because it was chosen for their significance (I 
read about it some weeks back), but today I saw this as the last item on a 
CD of National Anthems.


							Andrew

		European Anthem is Ode to Goddess
		=================================

    Plans continue to go forward for unification of European countries into
    one, great nation-state.  The European Economic Community has even
    approved a national anthem for the coming United States of Europe.  The
    anthem is Ode to Jot, with lyrics by Frederich von Schiller which was set
    to music by Beethoven in his Ninth Symphony.

    Now here's some fascinating inside information.  Beethoven was an
    'illumined' Freemason and his ninth symphony was composed in honor of the
    pagan Goddess of Liberty, worshipped secretly by the highest level Masons.

    Moreover, Ode to Joy was written in praise of the goddess.  Here's a
    sampling of Schiller's lyrics:

	Praise to Joy, the God-descended
		Daughter of Elysium! (Paradise)
	Ray of mirth and rapture blended
		Goddess to thy shrine we come!

 - Flashpoint, Living Truth Ministries / Texe Marrs, Austin Texas

.....

    When you look at it closely, you see it is more than merely 'joy'
    personified.  It is a goddess - the same goddess represented by the
    Statue of Liberty which was presented to the city of New York by the
    Grand Masonic Lodge in France....


Extracted from 'Maranatha Prophetic Alert' Issue 87, December 1992

    The Ode to Joy was, of course, originally in German.  I believe that the
    translation above is to fit the tune, as the documentation with my copy
    of the piece has a slightly different emphasis.  If you like,. I can
    enter that (in English and German, and get Rob to say which is the more
    precise...;-)

    The Maranatha Prophetic Alert is a small monthly publication from India,
    whose various addresses (for different countries) are available in 
    58.16

                                                       Andrew

    
    re .3
    
      If you're looking for facts instead of fiction, you might try
    Jurisprudence of Freemasonry by Albert Mackey.  :^)
    ----------------------------
    
    
                             
    
                                            Gil
                            

I have a thick book on FreeMasonry, given to me by a friend.
It is largely filled with esoterica, which will either rivet
an aspiring freemason, or cure insomnia for much of the rest
of the populace.  Perhaps I should leaf through it again.
I have it in my library under "insomnia; cures for."  ;-o

    re: .19
    
    Gil, thanks for your recommendation.
    
    re: .20
    
    Mark, since I don't fit either category ('aspiring Illuminati', 
    'insomniac') there is no need to disturb your weighty tome.
    
    Mary
    

Some aspects of Freemasonry, summarised from the postscript of that name, in
Barry Smith's book 'Warning', p 166-167, which clarify it's anti-Christian 
nature.  I believe that this information has been gathered generally from 
former Freemasons, who have been saved and delivered from this curse.

==============================================================================

In order to learn the secret of each degree, the candidate is bound under an
    oath.

From the taking of the initial oath in the apprentice (1st) degree, the
    candidate puts a demonic curse on himself.  This precludes the Baptism in
    the Holy Spirit.  Their families are included under the curse.

From 'The Charges of a Freemason", page 13: "Let a man's religion or mode of
    worship be what it may, he is not excluded from the Order provided he
    believes in the glorious architect of heaven and earth, and practices the
    sacred duties of morality.  Masons unite with the virtuous of every
    persuasion ...." - in direct contravention of 2 Corinthians 6:14 :
     "Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers"
     And John 14:6 :
     "Jesus said unto him, I am the way, the truth and the life, no man cometh
      unto the Father but by me"

From "Art XXX Admission of Candidates" - "I ... being a free man, and of the
    full age of twenty-one years do acknowledge my belief in a supreme being
    ..."
    cf Isaiah 45:5:
      "I am the LORD and there is no-one else, there is no God beside Me."

Freemasonry is a form of witchcraft.  Their spells end with "so mote it be"

Initiation to the apprentice degree:
(a) Candidate is blindfolded
(b) His trouser leg is rolled up
(c) A noose is placed around his neck
(d) His left breats is bared over the heart
He is told that if he tries to run away forwards, he will be stabbed; if he
    tries to run backwards he will be hung.

The candidate is pricked with a knife over the heart while he takes the
    oath: "My throat will be cut across, my tongue torn out by its roots, and
    be buried in the rough sands of the sea at lower water mark where the
    tide flows twice in the course of a natural day."

From "First degree tracing Board" page 75, "Our rites and ceremonies
    correspond in a great degree with the mysteries of Ancient Egypt. Their
    magi or philosophers, like ourselves...."

The freemason's way to heaven is up Jacob's Ladder.  From "First degree
    first tracing Board" page 84-85: "...This circle is bounded by two great
    parallel lines, one representing Moses, the other King Solomon, on the
    upper part of this circle rests the V.S.L. supporting Jacob's ladder, the
    top of which reaches to the heavens."
     Remember John 14:6 :
	"....no man cometh unto the Father but by Me"

2nd degree oath:
    "My breast will be torn open and my heart will be plucked from there and
     fed to the raveneous birds of the air."

3rd degree oath:
    "My Body will be severed in twain.  My bowels taken from thence, and
    burned to ashes and the ashes are to be scattered to the four winds of
    heaven."

    In a darkened room, the candidate is dealt three symbolic blows to the
    head, and falls into a coffin (sometimes designated on a canvas sheet).
    He also kisses his holy book.

The Royal Arch Masons Trinity is Jah Bul On - the secret name revealed to him
    at his initiation:

	Jah - for Jahweh
	Bul - for Baal, the Assyrian deity
	On  - the Egyptian sun god

Freemasonry is riddled with heathenism.  "Morals and Dogmas", page 277, by
    Albert Pike says: "The first masonic Legislator whose memory is
    presented to us by history was Buddha"

It's intent is to supersede all religions, as their literature claims:
    "A man is never closer to God than when he kneels at the sacred altar of
     Masonry"

Copy of instructions issued by a 33rd degree Mason and Grand pontiff of
    Universal Freemasonry, on 14th July 1889 to the 23 Supreme Councils of
    the World:

This will show you who the god of Freemasonry is -
    Albert Pike (Supreme Pontiff of Freemasonry) said, "That which we must
    say to the crowd is, we worship a god, but it is the god which one adores
    without superstition."
    "To you Sovereign Grand Inspectors General, we say this, and you may
    repeat to to the bretheren of the 32nd, 31st and 30th Degrees; the
    masonic religion should be by all of us initiates maintained in the
    purity of the Luciferian doctrine.  If Lucifer were not god, would Adonay,
    God of the Christians, bother to spread false and harmful statements
    about him. Yes! Lucifer is god.

    Thank you Andrew.  My father is a mason and I needed my need to pray
    about this revived.  
    
    Another good book about the masons is "The Secret Teaching of the
    Masonic Lodge" by John Ankerberg.

    RE: .1
    
    What is the Illuminati?  Is it some sort of occultic committee?
    

>    What is the Illuminati?  Is it some sort of occultic committee?

The Illuminati is a book.  The Illuminati is an organization that
basically runs (or influences) world events from behind the scenes.
What we see in the world of politics is only that which has been 
engineered by these "real" powerful persons in the world.

Mark

    Well the world has just moved a few steps closer to a 1 world religion
    (to go with the 1 world government and currency system).  Not
    suprisingly, the Catholic Church is part of the Great Compromise
    (again!).  It's no big secret that the Pope has been consulting with the 
    Dali Lama.  He even went as far to say that "...Christians can learn a lot 
    from this great man."  
    
    The Parliament of World Religions will meet in Chicago this summer. 
    Mother Theresa and Dali Lama will be there to represent 2 of the
    world's 5 largest religions.  Top officials from the Moslems and 
    Methodists will also be there.  The goal is to put their "differences"
    behind them and unite together in a common goal.
    
    To top it off, they present a prize of $1M every year to what they
    consider to be the largest contributor to religion for that year.  This
    year's winner is Chuck Colson.  He will be awarded in a private
    ceremony by Prince Philip (another New Ager) in May at Buckingham
    Palace.  Chuck will publicly receive the prize at the Parliament
    meeting in Chicago this summer.
    
    Based on II Corinthians 6:14, I urge everyone to write Chuck to
    reconsider accepting this prize, which contains money from various
    cults.
    
    Chuck Colson Prison Fellowship
    PO Box 17500
    Washington DC  20041-0500

    
    
    We all know how evil Mother Theresa is.  And again I do delete entry
    Christian.  Too much hate in this conference of "love".
    
    
    
    Have a nice day,
    
    
    Mike

Hi Mike (MW), re .27,

You know Mike H. (.26) was talking system, not individual.  And the visible
approach of many of the things we're warned about concerning the end times
makes some very aware of any pointers or tendencies like this.  Please try
not to read personal malice where none is intended. 

								Andrew

    
    Hey Mike M.!!!!!!!
    
    
    Like Andrew said....
    
    Methinks you bring too much of the SOAPBOX mentality here....
    
    
    Andy
    

    
    RE: .29  You must mean me, Mike W.  So I participate in another
    conference so I am labelled.  Interesting how things like that work. 
    Might want to put the big brush down, Andy K, you are making a mess.
    I will be participating due to the mails I received.  Probably mostly 
    reading (trying to learn as much as I can).  
    
    
    
    Mike 
    
    
    P.S.. Thanks to those who sent mail

    .31 Yeah, Mike, that's it.
    
    Richard
    

    Note 58.31 has been set hidden and the author notified.
    
    Mark L. co-mod

    RE: last few
    
    I have the distinct feeling that I missed something...
    
    
    Anyway, in order for the EEC to gain worldwide power, they must first
    be a worldwide economic power.  To do this, the US would have to step
    down- the US dollar no longer being the base of exchange.  
    
    Considering we have an approx. $4.3 trillion debt (as of 1991, counting
    both "on budget" and "off budget" debt.), with limited world wide funds
    available to borrow, this may not be long in the coming.  Unless
    things change, someone's going to have to bail us out.  If the EEC
    keeps chugging along at thier current pace, they may be the one to do
    it.  This would set up thier currency as the world's standard, in place
    of the US dollar.
    
    I could be wrong, but it seems to make sense when you look at the
    end-time prophesies, and the limited action taken by the West. 
    
    -steve

I posted in note 258 a press release on the peace treaty Israel and the PLO
have established.  I also noted I wanted to open this topic up again.

Now I will admit that I wasn't so sure about the particular interpretion of
Daniel 9 that the tribulation is going to begin with a peace treaty between
today's nation of Israel and the Anti-Christ, after which Jewish sacrifice
would be resumed.

However I was stunned when I learned about the unlikely peace treaty between
the PLO and Israel.  About this same time (or maybe shortly afterward) I was
reading some 50c Gulf War end-times books I bought from CBD (which weren't as
kooky as I expected given the price they slapped on them!), two of which
reiterated this interpretation of Daniel 9.

Already aware that a chastisement is approaching sometime soon, I found this
an eerie link.  Maybe that interpretation was right after all.

Now imagine my astonishment when I received (in response to my 258 post) a
message from Mary Nelson relaying some prophecies from a Catholic Deacon in
Georgia.  (You can find these in note 1034.13 of LYCEUM::CATHOLIC-THEOLOGY.)
I don't expect y'all to trust these prophecies, but they are extremely
interesting.  Specifically, they pin something very similar to what many call
the Rapture just before the Great Tribulation.  And this Great Tribulation
is geared to start in the year beginning October 12th (1993).  (Basically, the
prophecy said that the Feast of Tabernacles, the only Jewish feast not
fulfilled by Jesus's death and resurrection, is about to be fullfilled. The
prophecy, given September of last year, explains the eight days of the Feast as
eight years starting on the Feast of Tabernacles last year, 12 October.  The
first year would be a year of grace.  The second year would begin seven years
of the Great Tribulation.)

Interestingly enough, all of the Catholic prophecies relating to the end times
throughout the centuries seem to point to the end of this century as the climax
of end times eschatology.  If one takes the usual understanding of the Great
Tribulation as seven years, and subtract it from the last year in this
century/millenium, 2000 (NOT 1999), you get -- 1993.

In Catholic Theology, notes 1034, 1032, 1028, 1018, 1004, 988, 980, and others
you will find many of the prophecies -- actually only a very few of the sum
total -- we have received concerning the Second Coming, the signs and miracles
due to appear in the next seven years as well as the great destructions, and so
forth.  In fact, you will find much agreement with what has been pointed out in
other notes in this topic.

You will also find out that Mary _also_ prophecies a one world religion, and it
won't be Catholicism, and it will be destructive.  She also, I think,
prophecies a one world government.  However, contrary to Texe Marrs' opinion,
she says that Pope John Paul II has been especially chosen by God for the task
of uniting all _Christians_ (true Christians who oppose the Anti-Christ and the
false religion) and preparing the church for the Second Coming.  (She also says
that the Moslems will convert to Christianity.)

of course let me warn you that she also prophesies great distress and schism in
the Catholic Church, and she or someone else has also prophesied an ANTI-POPE
-- i.e. a false Pope who leads the church astray.  I do not know if the
Anti-Pope and the Anti-Christ will be the same; I think she generally points to
the Middle East as the source of the anti-Christ (see note 988 in C-T),
though the anti-Pope will probably be in Europe, where the Beast will most
likely be.  (I think the anti-Pope's name will be Pope Peter II.) 

Pope John Paul II is very agreeable to these many prophecies and their
messages; given their warnings against Satan, against Communism, against sin,
pagainst syncretism, against the anti-Christ, etc. I think you can safely
conclude that neither these apparitions nor John Paul II are complicit in the
anti-Christ's plan.  (I find it rather remarkable that so many people can
suggest the Catholic Church is colluding with the New Age movement or the
Anti-Christ when there are virtually only two groups of Christians left who are
opposing abortion, homosexuality, euthanasia, sex and violence, and all the
works of Satan that have arisen: the evangelical Christians, and the Catholic
Church. "A house divided against itself cannot stand.") 

Anyway, some highlights from the prophecies:

- The Great Tribulation will start by sometime this fall.
- Three days of darkness at some point will be a sign to all of humanity.
- A number of earthly and heavenly signs will appear at various points; a
permanent one in Medjugorje, a permanent one in Garabandal, Spain, a huge 
crucifix in the sky, 
- Chastisements: a comet or asteroid impact, massive earthquakes, consuming
fire from heaven, superordinary storms and lightning, demonic hordes (these
are the locusts of Revelation), 2/3s of humanity wiped out (Zechariah proph-
esied this)
- Saddam Hussein will be assassinated by a squad appointed by many nations, but
not before the anti-Christ has paved the way for the false kingdom.  After his
death, the anti-Christ will appear. Massive conflict in the Middle East.  The
world economy will collapse.  The Arab nations will rise to destroy Israel
and all of Christendom.  Anarchy will reign in the world, until the 
anti-Christ comes as false savior.

The details you can read for yourself.  Or just read Revelation; it's all
the same, just more details :-)

Whether you believe the prophecies or not, most of you know I am sure that
the Great Tribulation and the Second Coming are at hand.  It is possible that
most, but not all (some have been appointed to stay as guides), Christians
faithful to Christ will be taken away probably next month before the
tribulation starts.  Whether that happens or not, at any rate I think one can
be sure that the rough stuff has to start very soon, within a year. In any
case, be prepared.

Eric

Let me post a clarification on .35; I just talked to Garth about this stuff
and he pointed out that I might be leaving an unintended impression.

My personal position on the prophecies in .35 is that they are, as the title of
this topic says, "Signs of the Time."  (Actually I suppose I should have been
calling them "alleged prophecies," which is how I regard them.) I find them
immensely interesting and theologically sound, but I do not place my faith in
them as certain truth and I would encourage everyone reading them to discern
them as I am doing.  My reason for posting them is to give people something to
discern, some interesting signs which may or may not be true, but
nevertheless are quite relevant and I think important information to be aware
of.

Some of these alleged prophecies may not be true.  I would be especially
careful of putting too much trust in the alleged prophecy concerning the
alleged rapture next month -- I am not familiar with the person receiving the
messages and I do not know how trustworthy he is.  However, what he says
certainly makes sense in light of other more trustworthy alleged prophecies
I've read. I am certainly not going to bet the farm on it, but neither do I
think it should be entirely dismissed.

I am treating these alleged prophecies as data points on a probability
distribution.  The probability distribution tells me the probability of whether
we are close to the end times and if so, how close.  The prophecies come from
many, many different people; some may be true, some may be false.  By plotting
the data points mentally, I can get a good idea of where they all stand in
relation to one another and where they point to.  I can also plot what I regard
as known points, i.e., prophecies I find worthy of total trust from trustworthy
people.  My conclusion is that something extremely important is certainly about
to happen very soon; at the very least, a serious chastisement of a large
scale.  The details fall into the lower probabilities; what is important to me
is what the standard deviation implies, i.e., what the general picture is.

By posting these, I invite you, also, to take the "data points" that you know
of and see if you can correlate these data points with yours.  If they
correspond, then you can edify us by posting a message as such.  If they
contradict, tell us why so that we may better discern. I certainly don't expect
anyone to put all their trust in what I've said; everything must be discerned
by the Holy Spirit.  Nor am I intending to sound an alarm or issue an
authoritative warning, like the folks who are foolish enough to plaster
posters around town every few years giving the day and hour of the Rapture.

Will you or I be here October 14th?  I make no judgments nor do I entertain
false hope, but I will be prepared by conversion, repentance, and prayer, as we
always should be prepared.  These are signs which should bring us to greater
prayer and repentance; not signs for us to stand outside and wait, but signs to
focus our time and energy on developing holiness and increasing our prayer.
This is why Mary says she has come; to call us to her Son, to bring us to
repentance, and to increase our prayer.  This is the only response we should
make to these signs of the times.

    I think the temple has to be built first.

Hi Eric,

I've been trying to get around to respond to some of what you entered, but 
events have swept past some.  Meanwhile, some of the things you mention as 
recent prophecies are actually in the Bible.  For instance, the destructive 
one world religion is clearly foretold, as under the false prophet (the 
left-hand man of the anti-Christ), in Revelation 13:14-15 (and other verses 
in that chapter, which gives some details of the character of the reign of 
the a/C). Also referred to in Revelation 19:20, 21:10.

I would be dubious about the external union of all Christians, as there is
no indication of this in scripture, other than unity in heart and spirit, 
as I would understand from the LORD Jesus prayer in John 17.... Yet that is 
something I have a hunger for myself.  Where the denominational label is as 
insignificant as it (usually;-) is here..., and generally we can enjoy a 
deeper fellowship because of it.

� Anyway, some highlights from the prophecies:

� - The Great Tribulation will start by sometime this fall.
� - Three days of darkness at some point will be a sign to all of humanity.
� - A number of earthly and heavenly signs will appear at various points; a

Phew!  Highlights, maybe!!! Luke 21:26 reminds us that men will faint with 
terror at these 'highlights...!  :-}

DARKNESS:
   Referred to in a number of references.  Generally I would identify 
   these with the closing moments of Armageddon :
	Matthew 24:29, Zechariah 14:6, Isaiah 13:20, 24:23, Zephaniah 1:15, 
	Amos 5:18, Joel 2:31, 3:15...
   These would appear to occupy only one day (or a major portion of a day).
   In Revelation 8:12 there's a darkness which lasts 1/3 day, and there's 
   another darkness mentioned in Amos 8:9, which appears to refer to another 
   time.  The only 3 day darkness I'm aware of is the 'plague' one in Exodus 
   10:22.

CHASTISEMENTS:
   These sound like the 'trumpet' judgements of Revelation 8:7-12.

	- Zechariah 14:2 prophesied 1/2 the inhabitants of Jerusalem would 
	  go into exile.
	- Revelation 8 refers to the destruction of 1/3 of most of the items 
	  referred to.
	- Zechariah 13:8 refers to 2/3 of Israel perishing.
	- Zephaniah 1:18 refers to widespread worldwide destruction.

ASSASSINATION of SADAM HUSSEIN:
    Nations cooperate to arrange an assassination, but anarchy is rife...  
    Perhaps that is really what we're seeing today, though.  Countries 
    combining to establish rule, yet unable to enforce law - and certainly 
    not righteousness - at a personal level.  Hardly surprising, if man 
    couldn't do it with the motivation of God's love, that he can't manage 
    it for mere love of man...  

� Now I will admit that I wasn't so sure about the particular interpretion of
� Daniel 9 that the tribulation is going to begin with a peace treaty between
� today's nation of Israel and the Anti-Christ, 
This is clear from Daniel and Revelation.

� after which Jewish sacrifice would be resumed.
The significant landmark is this being stopped, which implies it's restarted.
certain factors add up here, but there's a lot of intro that haven't yet 
seen...

� However I was stunned when I learned about the unlikely peace treaty between
� the PLO and Israel.  
There's nothing to actually preclude earlier peace treaties between 
Israel and other groups, but I would consider them unlikely to stand.  This 
one has a lot of opposition from the ranks of both sides (though, in fact, 
so will the a/C's, being a treaty with 'many'...).  Bottom line is to wait 
and see, but I believe it will take some failed attempts for the success of 
the a/C's 'peace' venture to seem so globally amazing.

we covered a lot of this in 256.*, but we should beware of simply accepting 
anything spoken as prophecy.   Know the sciptures, to test whether these 
things are in agreement, or concern things not in scripture, or contradict 
scripture.  not always that easy!  About things not in scripture, we have 
to hold lightly to them until they are proven or disproven.  1 Corinthians 
14:29, and Matthew 24;11,24...


There are certain things I believe we can see from the Word.  One is that 
the time is 'close'.   but I'm not going to define close!

� at any rate I think one can be sure that the rough stuff has to start
� very soon, within a year. In any case, be prepared. 

Be prepared - YES.  Rough stuff within a year - not necessarily.  I see 
certain other prophecies yet to come together.  On the way, but not quite 
here yet.

Yes there's a time of trouble ahead, but it cannot touch your salvation. If
your eyes are on the earth, following every runour, you are in danger of
letting your treasure be something that decays.  If your eyes are on the
LORD, He is your treasure, and you will not be swayed by men's opinions. 
Your heart will be guarded against instability.

						God bless
							Andrew

    Is it true that Israel is going to trade Jericho under this treaty to
    gain sole control of Temple Mount?  I realize the territorial
    negotiations are 2 years away, but this definitely has prophetic
    implications if true.

>    Is it true that Israel is going to trade Jericho under this treaty to
>    gain sole control of Temple Mount?  I realize the territorial
>    negotiations are 2 years away, but this definitely has prophetic
>    implications if true.

Maybe some might think so, but this is extremely unlikely; the Dome of the
Rock, on Temple Mount just about 400 feet NE of the temple, is probably
Islam's second holiest site.  And the El Aqsa Mosque is right at the corner
of the Western and Southern walls of the temple.

I'm not sure what breakthrough is going to be necessary to deal with the
"unnegotiable" demand on both sides that Jerusalem be the capital of the
Palestinian State as well as the capital of Israel, but even if that can
be somehow finessed, the Temple Mount can never be the site of a rebuilt
temple.  Forget it.

/john

    I'm still pretty skeptical about whether this alleged prophesy is true
    or not . . . I've looked for corroborating evidence and found none, and
    it seems to be at least a little out of character with the other, more
    trustworthy prophecies received.  It also seems that the world is not
    yet as far gone as it could be -- it's far gone, but not so far gone
    yet that I think God's mercy has run out.
    
    But I remain certain that this world is going downhill rapidly and that
    we will see significant events in the next few years.

    Well I just finished spending 2 evenings listening to Chuck Missler. 
    The man is definitely well-informed about current events, those
    reported and those confidential, but seems a little spastic in his
    presentation at times.  I blame it on having so much to cover in so
    little time.  When I get a chance I'll post some highlights from my
    notes, but the bottomline from him is that we are extremely close to
    Ezekiel 38 & 39 as well as the rapture.
    
    Mike

    
    
    I think he's great !!
    
    
    			Fonz
    

Here are some highlights from my notes of the Chuck Missler prophecy seminar
that I attended recently.  For those of you that get his newsletter, the
information will look familiar.  If you are interested in receiving it (I
highly recommend it), you can write to him at this address.  Tell him you want
the free trial 1 year subscription (normally $20/year).

                            Koinonia House
                            PO Box D
                            Coeur d'Alene, ID 83816-0347
                            (208) 773-8524
                            (208) 773-8324  FAX

We're seeing the beginning of birthpangs - Matthew 24:8

Magog Positioned
----------------
Ezekiel 38-39 is famous in that God intervenes on behalf of Israel and it
portrays the use of nuclear weapons.  It is moving fast upon the horizon.
"Magog" was identified by ancient writers including Hesiod (7th century BC) and
Herodotus (5th century BC) as the Scythians.  These are the ancestors of today's
Russia.  "Persia", the ally of Magog is today's Iran.

Russia is currently sandwiched between the its traditional enemies.
German-dominated EUC to the west and Japan and China to the east.  Russia is
forced to form a new power base to the south.  Russia's perceived destiny is
with the world of Islam, focusing on the radicals: Iran, Iraq, Syria, and Libya.

Yeltsin is being pressured from the forces that came to his rescue in last
October's power struggle: foreign ministers, oil and gas industry, intelligence
community, and the military-industrial complex.

Moscow also needs the hard currency from the arms trade.  Russia is trying to
become the biggest arms supplier to Third World Countries.  They have the
technology and capacity to produce first-rate weapons at competitive prices.
Their first quarter sales of 1993 exceeded all of 1992's sales.  Remember the
Magog of Ezekiel 38 is not only the leader in the invasion, but also the
supplier of weapons (Ezekiel 38:7).

Rafsanjani of Iran has purchased $2.2B of combat aircraft and spares from
Russia, including at least 12 TU-22's.  From Iranian Air Forces bases near
Tehran, the 1,370 mile range TU-22-M3 bombers can reach Istanbul, Tel Aviv,
Cairo, and the waters of the Persian Gulf, and the whole of Saudi Arabia and
Pakistan, putting any target in the Middle East at risk.

In Yeltsin's recent duel with Parliament, the Army came to his rescue and turned
the tide.  The 4 elite divisions sealed the fate of the Parliament coup.  The
cost to Yeltsin is that the Army is clearly in control and is more indispensable
than ever.  There are presently 30 border conflicts in the former USSR.  Over
the last 18 months, from Moldava to Tajikistan, military force has proved
effective and commonplace.  Those who wield the force have the clout in
strategic councils.  The checks and balances of democratic political control are
entirely absent.  All of the top people are old-school Soviet security
personnel.  They regard the current political framework as simply transient
circumstances.  Russian security services detained 90,000 people and expelled
10,000 more from Moscow.  Yeltsin shut down 15 opposition newspapers and 1
hostile TV show.  Yeltsin's previously announced elections next June are being
"reconsidered."  11 of 15 former USSR republics have experienced forcible
changes and now have former Communists in power.  Intelligence reports state
that most of these were orchestrated by Moscow.  On Russia's southern rim, the
Caucasus region is currently torn by bloody conflicts.  All of these conflicts
mix elements of nationalism and Islam.

Bottomline: the West, particularly this country's administration, is being sold
a bill of goods about democracy in Russia.

Moscow-Tehran Connection
------------------------
The lead ally of Magog in Ezekiel 38 is Persia, which is modern-day Iran
(Ezekiel 38:5).  Russia fears a fundamentalist Islamic uprising throughout
former Soviet Central Asia and in the Russian Federation itself.  The Central
Asian republics are a key factor with 60M Muslims presently spread across 5
independent states.  This appears to be solved with the agreement between
Russia's Foreign Minister Andrei Kozyrev and Iran's President Rafsanjani.
Kozyrev even traveled to Tehran with Moscow's own senior Muslim cleric to
emphasize Russia's own Islamic credentials.

Russian needs Iran's restraint in Central Asia and the price is supporting
Tehran's more important ambitions elsewhere: Persian Gulf, Red Sea, and of
course Israel.  It is suspected that the Islamic commitments could well prove to
be the "hooks in the jaw" that will draw Russia into the ill-fated Magog
Invasion of Israel (Ezekiel 38:4).  

Iran's Arms Buildup
-------------------
Iran is the current emerging and most radical Middle Eastern power.  Rafsanjani
has announced his ambitions in his "Grand Design."  He plans to unite the entire
Muslim world into an Islamic Crescent from Indonesia in the Pacific to
Mauritania in the Atlantic.  He announced that they now have the resources (both
cash and weapons) to finally disconnect the Middle East from the traditional
Judeo-Christian order of the West.

Iran's purchase of 7 nuclear warheads from Kurchitov (nuclear stockpile near
Moscow) and from Simipolatinski (ICBM base in Kazakhstan) was reported earlier
this year.  These warheads have a shelf-life of 7 years and already 2 years
old.  Moscow's nuclear cooperation with Iran now also includes supplying 2
nuclear power plants, training nuclear technicians, and establishing nuclear
research facility in Isfahan.  The U.S. has been trying to stop all of this but
with no success.

Iran's military positioning includes a naval focus on 2 strategic objectives:
the Red Sea (where 25K ships pass per year) and the Strait of Hormuz in the
Persian Gulf (which passes 25% of the world's oil).  The Iranian Port Sudan
access, along with the annexation of Abu Musa island in the Persian Gulf (and
its control of the entrance through the Strait of Hormuz) has also put more
significance on Iran's recent acquisition of the 5 Russian Kilo-Class
submarines.  These submarines were in addition to the recent purchase from
Russian of $2.2B of additional aircraft and spares (for those 115 aircraft that
fled to Iran during the Persian Gulf war last year).  Iran has spent $14B
upgrading its air forces in the past 3 years.

Saudi Arabia
------------
In Ezekiel 38:13 "Sheba & Dedan" are modern-day Saudi Arabia.  They're nervously
on the sidelines, neither participating in nor interfering with the intended
plunder of Israel.  The current turn of events is quite threatening to them.
Especially with the increasing Iranian naval forces.  Rafsanjani has been
training his operational forces for amphibious operations under conditions of
contamination.  He doesn't need to do this to invade Israel.  This implies that
an Arabian invasion is part of his ultimate strategy.  No wonder Saudi Arabia is
nervous.

Rise of Islam
-------------
Meanwhile, Islamic militantcy is growing strong in the Middle East.  Preying
upon people's contempt for corrupt government, widespread unemployment, and
poverty, Muslim extremists are increasing their hold from Algiers to Amman, from
Beirut to Aswan.  These are highly educated, deeply religious, determined
people.  Their goal is domination of the region, by the sword if necessary.
Syria, Iraq, Iran, Sudan, and Afghanistan have now formed a strategic alliance,
now with Magog backing.  The curtailing, and eventual expulsion of, Western
influence in the Middle East is the key goal, and of course, the destruction of
Israel.

United States
-------------
The decline of the U.S. has become increasingly apparent to all sophisticated
observers.  Even without the disastrous policies of the current administration,
our economic (and moral) decay appears irreversible.  The question remains for
each of us, what do we do about it?  If lavish spending and increased taxation
could save a crumbling economy, the Rome would still be ruling the world.  And
it appears to be getting a second chance!

An Empire Re-emerges
--------------------
For centuries, Biblical scholars have been expecting a revived Roman Empire
(Daniel 2, 7; Revelation 13).  This major theme of Biblical prophecy has been
approaching like a glacier for decades and now has taken a major turn with the
signing of the Maastricht Agreement this year.  It still needs a strong leader.
One is coming and is probably alive today.

Israel "Peace" Accord
---------------------
The Arab-Israel conflict is not about borders, although the Islamic propaganda
continues to so influence the media.  It is the *existence* of Israel, not the
size of Israel, that is the crux of the matter.  Territorial concessions by
Israel will not end the conflict.  In fact, any territorial concessions are
destabilizing and will deny Israel the use of conventional responses and force a
nuclear response.  And it will do nothing to discourage further Muslim
incursions and intrigues.  In the next Middle East war, *both sides* will have
nuclear weapons (I Thessalonians 5:3).  There are many who believe that the
weapons that will be used in the famed Battle of Armageddon are already in
inventory.

Ezekiel 38 describes the only battle in all of the Bible, where the Holy Spirit
inspires to write about the post-war cleanup efforts.  The battle descriptions
and cleanup precautions pretty much describe the use of nuclear weapons.  In
addition, when the USA and USSR were legitimate global superpowers they were the
only ones with nuclear capability.  They kept global order by virtue of their
cold war relationship.  Now you have 22 countries with nuclear capability, half
of which violently hates the other half.  Also, the global superpowers are no
longer there to keep international order.

The Temple
----------
The preparations to rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem are, of course, some of the
most provocative elements of Biblical prophecy.  3 times in the New Testament,
it is alluded to (Jesus - Matthew 24:15, Paul - II Thessalonians 2:4, John -
Revelation 11:1-2) and this continues to be an area closely watched by all.  The
real obstacle is, of course, not archaeological, but political.  The Muslim WAQF
controls the Temple Mount since Moshe Dayan yielded it to them and they have
become ever more belligerent and obstructionist towards further studies of the
Mount.  Any serious undertakings on the Temple Mount await a drastic change in
the political situation.  Some believe a leadership will emerge that has
acceptability to both the Muslim and Jewish interests.  We can only watch and
see.  It is interesting to observe all the world events continue to focus on
Jerusalem, just as Zechariah predicted (Zech. 12:2-3).

Babylon Re-emerges
------------------
The numerous allusions to both historical and prophetic Babylon throughout both
the Old and New Testaments (Isaiah 13, 14; Jeremiah 50, 51; Revelation 17, 18)
has fascinated Biblical observers for centuries.  The destruction predicted in
the Bible has never taken place.  That implies that Babylon has yet to
experience that specific destruction, which, in turn, implies that it must
re-emerge in world history.  And it has already begun.  Saddam Hussein has
spent the past 20 years rebuilding Babylon on its original foundations.

Summary
-------
Magog is increasingly being positioned for the battle of Ezekiel 38.  Inside
intelligence indicates that it could happen at any time.

There is now a "Peace" Accord with Israel.

The USA (conspicuously absent in the final Biblical scenes) is propelling itself
toward oblivion, due to ignorance of the electorate, the arrogance of the
leadership, and the deliberate conspiratorial agenda of the global socialists.
The rapid decay of moral values, and the resulting economic decline, appear
irreversible within any reasonable time span.

Maastricht has accelerated Europe toward a global union.  The long sought-after
"Revived Roman Empire" doesn't appear to be quaint any more.

All this is in the context of Babylon, being rebuilt on the banks of the
Euphrates, and preparations for rebuilding the Temple in Jerusalem.

Biblical scholars have been dreaming of these very days for centuries!  And
these events are accelerating faster than one can take them in.  The idea seems
preposterous: that history has been revealed in advance and that the world is
heading toward a dramatic climax.  And yet, it is undeniably evident as we watch
global events from a Biblical perspective.

The "End Times"?
----------------
Hasn't every generation felt that theirs was the "End Times"?  But no previous
generation has any of the specific requirements.  Israel had not been restored
to the Land.  They were not in control of Biblical Jerusalem (the Old City).
There has been no Temple to fulfill what Jesus, Paul, and John predicted.
Babylon was in ruins.  Europe has been in separated pieces, remnants of the
breakup of the old Roman Empire.  Now it isn't just one of these: it's *ALL* of
them!  Every element of the classic, centuries old, prophetic scenario is now
moving into place.  With increasing velocity.  The more one knows about the
Biblical scenario, the more obvious it becomes.  The real question is, what
should we do about it?

 Haven't read it all yet, but this is pretty fascinating stuff.





Jim

    I'll have to re-check my Bible at home for the exact info, but Chuck even 
    points to Ezekiel 39:6 as possibly being the USA.  It talks about 
    "coastlands", and there was some meaning in the original Hebrew that led
    him to suspect a counter nuclear attack on Russia.

Hi Mike,

Good stuff...

� Chuck points to Ezekiel 39:6 as possibly being the USA.  It talks about 
� "coastlands", 

Ezekiel 38:13, 'the merchants of Tarshish' can be taken to mean the western 
limits of the known world, which I have heard interpreted as the U.S. and / 
or the U.K.  Typical modern 'diplomacy', paraphrased as : "Have you come to
plunder? Have you gathered your hordes to loot, to carry off silver and
gold....?". Like, "Uh, only asking - not actually going to do anything..." 

� and there was some meaning in the original Hebrew that led him to suspect
� a counter nuclear attack on Russia. 
I've heard this identified from the symptoms in Zechariah 12 & 14 (eg 14:12),
though it reads to me more like the direct personal intervention of the 
LORD, by His return.

I look forward to studying the input you've given us - thanks Mike!

								Andrew

    In case you're wondering, here's some background info on Mr. Missler:
    
    He's an internationally known business executive and recognized
    Biblical authority.  He has served as CEO on 6 different public
    companies and has established plants in Europe, Asia, and the United 
    States.  He's also been on 12 different boards of directors (Western 
    Digital is one that I know of).  He was the consultant to CBS for the 
    primetime special "Ancient Secrets of the Bible."  He has also co-authored 
    a book with Hal Lindsay thought the title escapes me at the moment.  He
    mentioned the first night with us that he has a B.S.C.I.S., but appears
    to be self-taught when it comes to being a student of the Bible.  He is
    also a U.S. Navy veteran and still has many contacts in Naval
    Intelligence.  As you can see, he's fairly legit in case you had that 
    concern.
    
    His newsletter contains some interesting world economic insights as
    well as the prophetic stuff.  I had the privilege in attending the
    private meeting he had with the local Calvary Chapel pastors while he
    was here (fortunate that one pastor is a good friend of mine).  Some of
    which he shared in private wouldn't be appropriate in here (might get
    set hidden since it involves certain aspects of the Clintons).  One
    extremely interesting thing was the "Waco Video" that is now available
    through Jeremiah Films.  During the raid on Waco, a local reporter
    filmed ATBF agents on the roof shooting at (and killing) each other in 
    an attempt to place a blackmark on religious organizations (thanks Ms.
    Reno).  The video was confiscated by the Feds, but apparently was
    stolen back.  It has made quite an impact in the black market and is
    now available through Jeremiah Films.  Welcome to the new police state!
    
    Another tidbit:  Missler sponsor a tour to Israel every spring.  This
    year they're meeting in Jerusalem for the Temple Conference.  This
    conference provides updates on progress by the experts directly
    involved in the preparation for the rebuilding of the Third Temple in
    Jerusalem.  The post-trip report should prove to be exciting!
    
    Mike

 I think I'm going to get on the mailing list..

 >   During the raid on Waco, a local reporter
 >   filmed ATBF agents on the roof shooting at (and killing) each other in 
 >   an attempt to place a blackmark on religious organizations (thanks Ms.
 >   Reno).

Yeah, this really burns me up.  The media (gov't) did a real nice job in
painting ol' whats-his-name as some raving lunatic.  And you know, perhaps
he was; perhaps he was.  However, from what I have heard is that
strange was one thing but that they kept to their own.  The weapons
and child abuse charges were never substantiated beyond any shadow of 
doubt.  All one needs in the prescription is an authority figure (feds) 
to accuse a non-authority figure of something the public would find detestable.
This sets up "probable cause" for alarm.

Anyone see the Malcolm X documentary on PBS?  When Malcolm had a falling
out with the Nation of Muslim, the paper planted stories to drive the
rift wider apart (supplied by federal agents).  There was enough of a
trial by public opinion that Malcolm X was assassinated - and whatever
the truth is, it doesn't matter, does it.  Some believe this, some believe
that, and the subversive so-and-so is no longer causing trouble.  Apply
this to an[other] unpopular[IZED] religious zealot, named Koresh, and
you have a similar thing, except Reno and company were too eager to 
paint themselves as tough on crime and kooks, thinking they picked an
easy target.  But you know, it doesn't matter how sloppy you are these
days, and government is finding that out.  They don't have to use
covert operations anymore; just lies and public influence and they
can strong-arm anyone they want.  Any policeman knows this and knows that
they canstop you on the road anytime they want and tag you with *something*.

America the free, isn't.  It's America the cattle ranch.  And you and I
are the cattle, and government and who's behind it are the ranchers.
Get a dogie out of line, maybe another branding is in order.  Everyone
smile and say moo.

MM

    .51
    
    What alarms me about the WACO incident and all of its jello
    insinuations, is that when will it be my local church meeting....
    
    San Francisco isn't that far from me and they had just a taste of the
    persecution by the public with the local law's blessings...
    
    Sheesh,
    Nancy

    
    What is the Maastricht Agreement?????

    >    What is the Maastricht Agreement?????
    
    It has to do with the unification of Europe (EUC).  I think that's the
    European United Commonwealth or something similar.

RE:     <<< Note 58.52 by JULIET::MORALES_NA "Sweet Spirit's Gentle Breeze" >>>

       
   > San Francisco isn't that far from me and they had just a taste of the
   > persecution by the public with the local law's blessings...
    
    

   I received a tape from Focus on the Family a few days ago that consists
   of 2 days of their radio program where this issue is discussed..quite 
   frightening, folks.




 Jim

Anyone remember Crystal Night? (Nacht)

    or go see "Schindler's List" to see what extent religious persecution
    can develop.  My wife and I went to see it last night.  With the
    renewed interest in Hitler's party in areas of the world, this movie is
    a must see.  We simply can't repeat that part of our world history, but
    I'm afraid we will.
    
    Look at the increased gang warfare.  Look at the disarming of America
    thru the exchange programs (toys for guns, sporting event tickets for
    guns, etc.).  At the pace we're going, we're not only going to have a
    full-blown police state, we may also have anarchy.  
    
    I was never one for the "paranoid" global conspiracies, but nothing
    surprises me anymore.

    re: .57
    
    You're not paranoid.
    
    Strange but all those in the past who proclaimed things about his
    nation's direction that were dismissed as "paranoid", were right (well
    maybe not 100% of them, but you get the idea).
    
    Gun confiscation?  Can't happen here!  (yet look what's going on with
    the Second Amendment today...the prez. signed a bill that he and
    everyone else-including HCI- knew would do absolutely *nothing* to
    prevent crime)
    
    Religious persecution in the US?  Can't happen here!  (WACO, new RICO
    definition, the Separation of CHurch and STate clause invented in 1947,
    etc.)
    
    Many things that people feared decades ago are happening.  They don't
    look so paranoid today, do they. 
    
    I'm big on the conspiracy theories.  God has opened (my once closed)
    eyes to many things as of late.
    
    -steve

    The film of the Waco incident is on Jeremiah Films, but is available
    from Chuck Missler's ministry.   Ask for the "Linda Thompson" video.
    
    Koinonia House
    PO Box D
    Coeur d'Alene, ID 83816-0347
    (208) 773-8524
    (208) 773-8324  FAX

Periods of Israel's history
---------------------------
This originally comes from Clarence Larkins published in 1919.  From Abraham to
the Exodus, (starting with the promise in Genesis 12:4) there is a period of 505
years.  If you subtract the period of disfellowship with God (15 years with
Ishmael), you get 490 years.

From Exodus to the completion of the first Temple, (I Kings 6:8) there's a
period of 601 years.  Except when you study the book of Judges carefully, there
are 6 servitudes of the judges, totaling 111 years.  When you subtract 601 - 111
you get 490 years again.

The next period goes from the Temple (I Kings 8 ~1005 BC) to Nehemiah (~445 BC)
you have 560 years.  This period includes the 70 years of Babylonian captivity.
560 minus 70 = 490 years (there's that number again!).

From Daniel under Artaxerxes to the first advent of Christ, there is 483 years.
Add the 7 years that Israel had set aside and you have the 4th 490 year period
in Israel's history.

What's significant about the four 490-year periods?  4 � 490 = 1960 years.
Wouldn't it be like God to give the church any less?  Isn't it interesting that
the church was born on Pentecost?  (49 days after the Feast of First Rights? not
sure about the Feast name but it was in 32 AD).  If you add the 1960 years to
the threshold of 32 AD, it would imply that the rapture could happen any time
after 1992.  Interesting speculation...

Just to add to that, the above shows that God has at least forgiven Israel 4
times 70 � 7.  When Jesus Christ was asked how much should we forgive our
brother, most of us thought the 70 � 7 was just a figure of speech.  What he's
really saying is that's how many times God has forgiven you (Israel).

Interesting background on Ezekiel 4
-----------------------------------
In Ezekiel 4 there is a strange prophecy which deals with the 430 years of
judgment on Israel.  Of those, 70 we can account for due to the Babylonian
captivity.  Subtracting that, you get 360 years.  The problem with this, and is
typical of prophecy, is that it doesn't fit anything.  However, in Leviticus 26,
there is a Hebrew phrase that implies that God will multiply punishment by 7 for
every time you disobey.

Some scholars have pointed out that if you multiply 360 years by 7 you get 2520
years.  That's approximately the time from the Babylonian captivity (5th
century BC) to the current day where Israel is back in their land.  But it's
sloppy because of the overage.  However, nobody applied the insights of Sir
Robert Anderson to this idea.  He's the one who figured out Daniel's 70-week
prophecy and the arrival of the Messiah in Jerusalem using the 360-day prophetic
years (which is standard in the Bible).  

Assuming the 2520 years are 360-day years, that turns out to be 907,200 days.
Not too terribly exciting, until you put it together, but it can be somewhat
complicated.  If you take 2,483 years times 365-days, you get 906,295.  You have
to then consider leap years and the mistakes in the Julian calendar.  In 1752
Pope Gregory realized that the Julian calendar was 11 days behind.  That year he
declared September 4th to be September 11th to correct it.  Then they also
corrected the leap-year formula (i.e., century-mark years like 1800, 1900, and
2000 are no longer leap-years).  To make up for this, there's 614 days you have
to add to the 906,295 days, yielding 906,909 days.  Now to get the 907,200
days you have to add 9 months and 21 days.  To make a long story short, the
interesting conjecture around the period of time implied by Ezekiel 4 is 2,483
years, 9 months, and 21 days.  So what you ask?

The next problem is when do we start counting this.  The Babylonian captivity
is spoken of being 70 years, but to be consistent, you have to treat those as
360-day years also.  This would amount to 25,200 days.  Using a 365-day year
(taking leap years into account), you would get 69 years and is only 2 days
short of the 25,200 days (70 years with 360-day years).  Another problem that
is a little bit more complicated: when did captivity actually start?  If you
do your homework carefully, you will find out there are two different types
talked about in the Old Testament.  One is called the servitude of the nation
of Israel.  The first siege of Nebuchadnezzar on Israel in Daniel 2 starts the
captivity and it lasts 70 years to the day.  The first siege started the
servitude.  Another period of time talked about is the desolation of Jerusalem.
In Jeremiah you read about the second siege.  Jeremiah was placed into prison
as a traitor for saying not to rebel against Nebuchadnezzar.  The prophets kept
saying not to rebel against Nebuchadnezzar because he was the judgment from
the hand of God.  There is also the 3rd siege on Jerusalem by Nebuchadnezzar
where he finally had a belly full and completely destroyed Jerusalem and
carried King Zedekiah off the Babylon (as prophesied).  The point is the
desolation of Jerusalem also occurred for 70 years and many think they are the
same period, but they're not.  The desolation started with the 3rd siege, but
the 2 70-year periods are not co-terminus.

Time Calculations to the founding of the nation of Israel
---------------------------------------------------------
That yields another problem:  what to do with the 2,483 years, 9 months and 21
days?  It's well documented that the captivity following the first siege was
over in July 23, 537 BC (started in 606 BC).  Now keep in mind that you have to
throw a year in there because there's no year 0.  Now add 2,483 years, 9 months
and 21 days to July 23, 537 BC and you get May 14, 1948 when David Ben-Gurion
(sp?), using Ezekiel as his authority, announces on international radio the name
of the new Jewish homeland: Israel!  As the Rabbis say, "Coincidence is not a
kosher word!"

Time Calculations to the reclaiming of Jerusalem
------------------------------------------------
What happens when you apply the 2,483 years, 9 months and 21 days to the end of
the 3rd siege when Jerusalem was desolated?  This happened in August 15, 518 BC.
Following the same rules as above, you arrive at June 7, 1967 when the city of
Jerusalem was under the Star of David for the first time since the fall.  What a
coincidence!

The Bible contains 66 books written by 40 different authors over thousands of
years.  As time goes by we discover more that every detail, every number, every
placement, every subtlety of the text is there by supernatural engineering.
*ALL* Scripture is given by inspiration and is profitable for doctrine, for
reproof, and correction.  We haven't begun to discover the detail, the power,
and the majesty of God's handiwork.

    We've been hearing some news lately about a San Francisco Baptist church 
    that underwent physical and property abuse from a radical alternative
    lifestyle group while police just watched and did nothing.  Can anyone 
    update the status of this situation?  Will the city be sued by the church?
    
    thanks,
    Mike

    Well, Jimbo... is there a tape about this in your possession?  
    
    :-)

 uh...yes ;-)

    Focus on the Family has a tape of the attack and a discussion with the
    Pastor.  Contact Focus on the Family, 1-719-531-5181.  All I am aware
    of is that SF Police, will do nothing and I would believe that a
    lawsuit will not result in positives.

    The San Francisco Police did nothing based on the fact that it was
    politically correct to protest *this* meeting.

This description of the attack was originally written by Father Todd Wetzel,
director of Episcopalians United for Revelation, Renewal, and Reformation;
I have edited it for inclusion in this conference

	     In San Francisco, activists invaded an evangelical church to
	disrupt a service because they objected to its biblical message.

	     Between 75 and 100 protesters overran the church grounds and
	blocked the doors.  They shouted, threw rocks, grabbed at, and
	threatened church members as they entered and left the service.
	Rioters also tore down the church's Christian flag and replaced
	it with their own banner.

	     According to the pastor, elderly and physically disabled
	residents were terrified, as were children inside the church who
	heard the mob shouting, "We want your children.  Give us your
	children."

I have no followup information.

/john

 The tape of the Focus on the Family program is chilling...







 Jim

I have read that this was not simply a church service.  That it was a meeting
which had some specific connection to the movement whose members caused the
disturbance.  I don't remember exactly the connection.

That doesn't excuse a single thing that they did, nor does it excuse the
police department's lack of action.  But I think it's what they would say in
response, and I think it is true that they didn't just pick a church at
random to harass.

Paul

 The incident took place during a regularly scheduled Sunday evening service,
 which featured a guest speaker.





Jim

Did the guest speaker have anything to do with this subject?

I'm not at all trying to defend the people who attacked this church.  I just
want to make sure that I don't make any false accusations.

Paul

    Yes, the speaker had connections to an amendment in another state
    regarding discrimination.
    
    However, Paul, for myself, I have no problem with the movement
    rebuttals, I take issue with the laying on of hands to the Pastor's
    wife and attempted bombing of their home.
    
    This goes beyond the first amendment rights into breaking the law.

    What if (God forbid any who call on His name act that way) the roles
    were reversed?  Or the Christians perpetrated the same things on an
    abortion clinic?
    I do not think the police would have stood idly by. 

    One quote I heard was the vandals saying to the police that they were
    "redecorating."  When the police were asked by church members to stop
    the crimes, they simply re-stated what the vandals said.

    There is good and bad everywhere, and I'm sure most people in here
    wouldn't condone some of the behavior talked about in your reply.  

    As the topic title says, there are signs that tell the believe when the
    Second Coming of Christ is fast approaching.  Like it or not, the rise 
    and popularity of the subject in the current thread is one of those signs.  
    (Matthew 24:37-39)

    Mike

Amen, Mike ...

Ray, I guess there's lots of sides we never see.  But as Mike said, we are 
aware of an escalation of things prophesied for the end times.

							God bless
								Andrew

This topic is incredibly, and amazingly fascinating to me. Does anyone have 
anymore updates on 'endtime prophecies' relating to what's happening with the
EEC, Russia and the PLO-Israeli peace talks?

Ben

Hi Ben, 

There's several publications which keep in touch with global developments
relating particularly to eschatology.  They're more generally available in
the States than over here, and I don't have the addresses to hand, but I'm
sure there's those who can point you in that direction... 

								Andrew 

>anymore updates on 'endtime prophecies' relating to what's happening with the
>EEC, Russia and the PLO-Israeli peace talks?
    
    Remember when God's Word talks about "Peace & Safety" in the last days?
    
    Chuck Missler, due to his previous career in the DoD, recently had a
    private briefing at NATO HQ in Brussels with Robin Beard (Asst. Sec. of
    Defense) and Robert Hunter (Ambassador).  Both admitted this nuclear
    war in the Middle East is inevitable.
    
    If the peace talks are a "success," that is if Israel makes additional
    territorial and security concessions, responding to U.S. pressure, then 
    the delicate balance of power will be upset and war will once again be a 
    rational option for the Muslims (Islamic countries).
    
    If the peace talks fail, then "Arab" expectations will have been raised
    to no effect; a backlash will emerge against the leadership which
    talked peace, but could not deliver; and the Rejectionists will be on
    the ascendency.
    
    The "Peace Negotiations" have intensified terror campaigns and riots in
    Jaffa, Nazareth, among the Bedouin in the Negev, and other Arab
    populated areas (from pre-1967 Israel).  The real terrorist groups
    (Hamas, Hezbollah, etc.) are out to prove that the PLO doesn't speak
    for them.
    
    The Jewish underground movement also continues to grow significantly
    since the Hebron incident (Dr. Goldstein - Feb. 25th).  The settlers
    are especially upset about Rabin's reactions to continuing Arab
    terrorism.  Arab attacks since the Oslo agreement have been dismissed
    by Rabin as "opponents of the peace process."  Neither have these
    attacks been condemned by Arafat.  Surprisingly, Rabin's reaction has
    caused Arafat to demand more changes in the agreement.  
    
    The increase in Arab terror has led to several ministers to call for
    the evacuation of Jewish settlers in Hebron.  The government has
    outlawed the Kach movement (to which Dr. Goldstein belonged), but is
    being tested in the courts as infringement of democratic rights.
    
    The Council of Yesha (The Council of Jewish Local Authorities of Judea,
    Samaria, and the Gaza District) has warned that 50% of the soldiers may
    refuse to obey what they would consider an illegal order, and armed
    intervention would result in the case of civil unrest.  They do not
    hide the fact that their first loyalty is to the PLO and not to Israel.
    
    For now, we can only guess that this new peace agreement will lead to
    the "Covenant with Death" that Isaiah, Daniel, and other prophets
    talked about.
    
    Mike

Thanks for the responses. I've taken down some info about various newsletters
that some of you mentioned in previous replies. 

It would seem as though things are really happening at a rapid pace in the 
middle east. It's amazing to me how more people aren't convinced at the 
legitimacy of the Bible when the evidence (provided via prophetic statements)
is overwhelming. 

I'm still somewhat vague on what North America's role in the end times will
be. Anyone have any opinions/theories?

Thanks,
Ben

    Hi Ben,
    
    There's a show on on the vision channel hosted by the Lalonde brothers,
    I think it's called "This Week in Bible Prophecy". Check the listings
    but I think it's on Saturday and Sunday nights.
    
    Glenn
    
    Yes, I can be serious from time to time.
    
    ;-)

>I'm still somewhat vague on what North America's role in the end times will
>be. Anyone have any opinions/theories?
    
    Ben, I've heard Ezekiel 39:6 as a possible reference to the U.S., but
    that may be a stretch.  Most prophecy experts state that the decline of
    power in the West plays right into the fact that the U.S. isn't
    mentioned in Biblical prophecy.  The U.S. is expected to continue
    declining until we're a non-player in the superpower race.
    
    Mike

    Hal Lindsey has an interesting interpretation of world events according
    to prophesy.  In 'Late Great Planet Earth' (I know, and older book, but
    a good quick read nontheless), Lindsey basically beleives that the US
    will under the control of the Antichrist (new Roman dictator who comes
    to power in the EEC due to brilliant "fixes" to the problems in the
    mid-east...eventually bringing a short lived peace that will be
    shattered by Armageddon), due to economic hardships (caused by the
    rampid immorality and lawlessness).
    
    He said this in 1970.  
    
    Another interesting thing regarding Babylon, the
    Harlot (new world religion), was that in the OT, this referred to
    astrology and spiritualism.  With the great increase in interest we are
    having in the occult, UFO's, ESP, astrology, and drugs, I think this
    new religious system is being ushered in as we watch.  How many
    new age religions (new age is a misnomer..these things are not new at
    all  "there is nothing new under the sun"), including covens and
    santanic cults do we hear about in the news?  How many don't we hear
    about.
    
    America will play only a supporting role in the end times, as we will
    be in utter chaos due to government mis-management, social engineering,
    and moral bankruptcy.  We will beg to be  "taken care of" and will no
    doubt wholeheartedly support a dictator who bails us out financially
    and brings about civil order, especially when the threat of WWIII is so
    great and he will promise world peace. 
    
    
    So...anyone have any idea when the poop will hit the propeller?
    
    -steve

Maybe I'm blind but somehow I just can't see the decline being so incredibly
rapid here in North America. The U.S. is still a major military superpower. 
Does anyone see a possibility (supported by biblical prophesy) of somekind of 
catastrophic event that could force the U.S. to it's knees? (ie: California
finally ends up in the Pacific.) 

Ben

Glenn,

Almost forgot, thanks for the pointer on the tv show. I'm gonna try to catch it
this weekend.

Ben

>Maybe I'm blind but somehow I just can't see the decline being so incredibly
>rapid here in North America. The U.S. is still a major military superpower. 
>Does anyone see a possibility (supported by biblical prophesy) of somekind of 
>catastrophic event that could force the U.S. to it's knees? (ie: California
>finally ends up in the Pacific.) 
    
    Have I got a surprise for you!  I won't get to it until next week, but
    I believe the catastrophic event will be financial/economic.  One
    clue is our national debt (not to be confused with deficit).  
    
    Mike

    Mike,
    
    I'll be interested in reading what you post along these lines. I read
    Larry Burkett's "The Coming Economic Earthquake", and it caused me some
    anxiety. I have since read other material for my economics class that
    has me not so concerned any more. I look forward to being able to
    discuss this further.
    
    	BD�

    Several issues will bring down the US inside ONE decade, IF NOTHING GET
    DONE ABOUT IT (which is what is being done about it today).
    
    * welfare class- the mentality of "you owe me" this spawns, as well as
      the government replacing the father figure in the family unit, will
      (and is) causing an increase in crime in the inner cities...current
      calls for "gun control" promise to help disarm those who would
      protect themselves, causing more victims and easier prey.
    
    * multiculturalism- divide and conquer strategy; weaken the unity of 
      a nation, and you invite trouble and divisionism, reducing any
      effective united front of opposition
    
    * national debt- keeps going up, right now, ON BUDGET debt is around
      5 trillion, OFF BUDGET debt is probably in the trillions as well;
    reducing the deficit will not help at this stage in the game, only by
    eliminating it entirely can we postpone bankruptcy (eventually interest
    on the debt will bury us all by itself)
    
    * anti-Christian mentality- the only concerted opposition to the "world
    system" are Christians...destroy credibility or limit their rights and
    you reduce the effectiveness of this obsticle
    
    
    What many don't understand is that Satan controls the world system. 
    Non-Christians scoff at the idea of a "devil" or the spiritual warfare
    that goes on behind the scenes.  The world system is designed to take
    God and his word out of the world by many subtle ways...specifically
    effective are the mental conditioning of society..or social
    engineering.   Judgeing by the average responses to mentioning Satan, I
    have to say that his system is quite effective at nullifying and
    altering the truth.
    
    As America becomes more indoctrinated with the mental conditioning of
    the world system, we will see our country decline further.  It won't be
    too much longer before we hit the point of no return.  After that, the
    American people will willingly give thier alleigence to whatever
    "savior" has an answer to the plagues of social ills we brought
    upon ourselves...such a leader will be the antichrist, after his
    confederacy bails out the US from its national debt.
    
    This mentality has been brewing since the late 19th century, which
    explains why our Constitution began to take a fall in earnest in the
    early 1900's.  Today, we see blatant examples of folks willing to give
    up thier rights in the name of security.
    
    
    -steve

Steve,

I would think that multi-culturalism and the national debt are the 2 biggies 
since European nations would also be dealing with the anti-christian mentality
and the welfare-class issues. (I suppose that multi-culturalism might also be
a problem in Europe to a lesser extent than it is in North America.)

>    The world system is designed to take
>    God and his word out of the world by many subtle ways...specifically
>    effective are the mental conditioning of society..or social
<    engineering.  

A good example of this here in Canada is that just recently the christian prayer
that preceded the beginning of a new session in the house of commons was 
modified to remove all references to Christ. 

Ben

| <<< Note 58.88 by CSOA1::LEECH "Homer of Borg,prepare to be..MMM,beer" >>>



| * welfare class- the mentality of "you owe me" this spawns, as well as
| the government replacing the father figure in the family unit, will
| (and is) causing an increase in crime in the inner cities...current
| calls for "gun control" promise to help disarm those who would
| protect themselves, causing more victims and easier prey.

	Steve, it sounds like is if they do nothing we're doomed, but if the
government steps in, that's wrong. The government helped make the mess, it is
time for them to help clean it up.You can't expect things to fix themselves on
their own. I think a lot of the steps that the local government is doing are
fine. One is if you want to collect, you work. Another is if you will only
receive so much money for X amount of kids. You have any kids after that, you
don't get any more money. As far as gun control does, tell me, do we need to
protect ourselves with oozies? Semi-automatic weapons are not needed either.
Sweeps are another idea that is being tried out. All of these things will help
bring crime down in these parts of the city where the crime rate is this
highest. Gun control will help everyone.

| * multiculturalism- divide and conquer strategy; weaken the unity of
| a nation, and you invite trouble and divisionism, reducing any
| effective united front of opposition

	Have you got examples for this one Steve?

| * national debt- keeps going up, right now, ON BUDGET debt is around
| 5 trillion, OFF BUDGET debt is probably in the trillions as well;
| reducing the deficit will not help at this stage in the game, only by
| eliminating it entirely can we postpone bankruptcy (eventually interest
| on the debt will bury us all by itself)

	Balancing the budget would be an easy task. Getting it through a vote
would be impossible. We could add something that a bill has to go through on
it's own, without ANY attachments, make the cuts that are really needed, even
if it does mean only one term is spent in office. But you and I both know this
last one will never happen. I think the white house has been streamlined to a
point, but they could cut out a lot of stuff there too. Some pages that the
various people use could be cut, but even though these are small potatoes, we
need to cut them.

| * anti-Christian mentality- the only concerted opposition to the "world
| system" are Christians...destroy credibility or limit their rights and
| you reduce the effectiveness of this obsticle

	This is probably brought on by the fanatic side of things. People eat
that stuff up. There are many Christians that this has affected, and it is not
something that will be easily changed. How would you go about changing this?



Glen

re: Glen
    
>	Steve, it sounds like is if they do nothing we're doomed, but if the
>government steps in, that's wrong. The government helped make the mess...
    
    Are you really naive enough to believe the government is really wants
    to fix the problems?  I'm not.  The world system is right on track. 
    Sit and watch end-time Biblical prophesies come true, then you will
    *know* that the Bible is the true word of God.
    
    The government does nothing but push through statist social(ist)
    programs that will only speed up our decline.  New Deal, Great Society,
    both were culminations of many years of mental conditioning by the
    world system of thought...a way to reduce the Constitution to mere
    words that change meaning at the whim of society.  
    
>    You can't expect things to fix themselves on
>their own. 
    
    I don't think anything will be "fixed" until Christ Jesus returns to
    this earth.  Call me a pessimist.
    
>    I think a lot of the steps that the local government is doing are
>fine. One is if you want to collect, you work. Another is if you will only
>receive so much money for X amount of kids. You have any kids after that, you
>don't get any more money. 
    
    I'm not against these policies.  Tell me, though, what is the cause of
    the problems to begin with?  When you figure this out, you are on your
    way to understanding.
    
>    As far as gun control does, tell me, do we need to
>protect ourselves with oozies? 
    
    Who has uzzies?  The only kind of uzzies you can buy are semi-auto
    clones.  ALL FULLY AUTOMATIC WEAPONS ARE COVERED BY THE 1934 GUN ACT. 
    You have been fooled by media bias and world system machinations.
    
>    Semi-automatic weapons are not needed either.
    
    I've just *got* to hear your reasoning behind this statement.  You do
    realize that revolvers are by far the most used weapons in crimes,
    don't you?  Why are they not trying to ban revolvers? (it's stupid to
    try and ban any of it, IMO, also unconstitutional)
    
>Sweeps are another idea that is being tried out. All of these things will help
>bring crime down in these parts of the city where the crime rate is this
>highest. Gun control will help everyone.

    You just can't see the world system sucking the once God-fearing nation
    of the US into its muck, can you?  We are witnessing a desensitization
    of Americans to a POLICE STATE.  We are systematically and purposely
    being mentally conditioned to accept state control over everything. 
    
    The Constitution has been dead for almost 50 years...we are just now
    beginning to feel the effects of its assassination.  But stick around,
    things are bound to get exciting very soon.  8^(
    
| * multiculturalism- divide and conquer strategy; weaken the unity of
| a nation, and you invite trouble and divisionism, reducing any
| effective united front of opposition

>	Have you got examples for this one Steve?

    If you can't see the signs, Glen, I'm not going to waste several dozen
    lines of typing to point out the obvious end result of our
    polarization.
    
>	Balancing the budget would be an easy task. Getting it through a vote
>would be impossible. 
    
    Only because congresscritters will not give up the pork.  How many
    federal beauracracies have been cancelled in the past 30 years?  How
    many have grown for no apparent reason?  How many can we do without?
    
    We could *easily* balance the budget if this country was unified in
    doing so.
    
| * anti-Christian mentality- the only concerted opposition to the "world
| system" are Christians...destroy credibility or limit their rights and
| you reduce the effectiveness of this obsticle

>	This is probably brought on by the fanatic side of things. People eat
>that stuff up. There are many Christians that this has affected, and it is not
>something that will be easily changed. How would you go about changing this?

    Define fanatic.  Actually, define what you just said above...I don't
    think I quite follow you here.
    
    You want to know the basic problem with this?  It's really quite
    simple.  Christians promote God's morals of behavior.  Many people
    enjoy doing things that go against these morals, and will find any
    reason they can to rationalize away their conscience and the Christians
    both.  They must somehow debunk Christian morals (in debates, this
    seems to be witchhunts and the inquisitions...things done in the name
    of RELIGION, not Christianity...there is a difference), or disprove the
    Bible to feel good about themselves (the other choice would be to
    accept Jesus and His word, and change behavior patterns).
    
    The world system provides mankind with many different ways of
    deception...typically subtle engineering of society's mentality over
    sin.  How many sins of the Bible are accepted as "okay" today? 
    Deceptions!  This mentality is engineered and will catch up the unwary. 
    It did me before I found Christ.
    
    My favorite verse from the Bible "Seek the truth, and the truth will
    set you free".  I wish I could explain to you how true and real this
    passage is.  Jesus is truth, says the Bible.  Seek Him, and He will
    open your eyes.
    
    
    -steve 

    Small correction to my last note...
    
    "revolvers are by far the most used FIREARMS (not weapons) used in
    crimes"
    
    Semantics are everything.  8^)

| <<< Note 58.91 by CSOA1::LEECH "Homer of Borg,prepare to be..MMM,beer" >>>

| Are you really naive enough to believe the government is really wants to fix 
| the problems?  I'm not.  

	Then Steve, if you feel the system is so corrupt, so bad that you can't
even believe in it, then why don't you either do something about it or go
someplace where you can live your life the way you feel God wants you to.
Eitherwise how can you sit there and say this and that is wrong, we can't trust
the government, etc, but then do nothing about it? If you have done something
about it, what?

| I don't think anything will be "fixed" until Christ Jesus returns to this 
| earth.  Call me a pessimist.

	Pessimist.... :-)  But are you sitting on your butt waiting for Christ
or are you doing something about it now!?

| I'm not against these policies.  Tell me, though, what is the cause of
| the problems to begin with?  When you figure this out, you are on your
| way to understanding.

	There are many reasons for the decline Steve. Falling away from Christ
is the biggie. But you say we need to do something, just what have you done?

| Who has uzzies?  The only kind of uzzies you can buy are semi-auto clones. ALL
| FULLY AUTOMATIC WEAPONS ARE COVERED BY THE 1934 GUN ACT. You have been fooled 
| by media bias and world system machinations.

	I think it is you who have been fooled Steve. Why do you need any type
of gun to protect you? Isn't God strong enough to do this? Is your faith strong
enough to allow Him to do this? Aren't you now taking things in your hands 
instead of letting Him protect and guide you?

| >    Semi-automatic weapons are not needed either.

| I've just *got* to hear your reasoning behind this statement.  

	Gee Steve, it's very easy. If you need to have protection and will not
allow God to do it for you, a pistol should do the job. We're not at war Steve,
we don't need semi-automatic weapons.

| You just can't see the world system sucking the once God-fearing nation
| of the US into its muck, can you?  

	I don't see all the God fearing people of this nation as anything that
Jesus will be accepting. Those who are so filled with hate and everything else
are the majority of the ones you hear about. So don't give me this God-fearing
stuff because a lot of the people who still are God fearing have a big chunk in
all this decline too. 

| We are witnessing a desensitization of Americans to a POLICE STATE.  

	Show me examples.

| We are systematically and purposely being mentally conditioned to accept 
| state control over everything.

	Leave Chelsea Ma out of this! :-)  You cry because things are going
bad. You say we need change. You don't want government to step in at all, so
we will sit here and do what? It appears that if you need a gun for protection
that you can't believe God will be strong enough to help us out of this.

| The Constitution has been dead for almost 50 years...we are just now
| beginning to feel the effects of its assassination.  But stick around,
| things are bound to get exciting very soon.  8^(

	Steve, I sometimes wonder what you hold more dear. The Constitution or
the 10 commandments. I see you talk more about the constitution than most
anything else. Figuring you out is certainly hard.

| | * multiculturalism- divide and conquer strategy; weaken the unity of
| | a nation, and you invite trouble and divisionism, reducing any
| | effective united front of opposition

| >	Have you got examples for this one Steve?

| If you can't see the signs, Glen, I'm not going to waste several dozen
| lines of typing to point out the obvious end result of our polarization.

	Uh huh.... good one Steve.... thank you ever so much for clearing that
up.

| How many federal beauracracies have been cancelled in the past 30 years?  How
| many have grown for no apparent reason?  How many can we do without?

	Tell me Steve, what major cuts in programs would you make? 

| >	This is probably brought on by the fanatic side of things. People eat
| >that stuff up. There are many Christians that this has affected, and it is not
| >something that will be easily changed. How would you go about changing this?

| Define fanatic.  Actually, define what you just said above...I don't
| think I quite follow you here.

	The Swaggarts, Koresh's, Bucannan's, Jim Jones of the world. You then
have some of the fundamentalists who go overboard. Pat Roberts, Billy Graham's,
etc. Their messages could mean a lot, but they are clouded with fear and with
some, hate. 

| You want to know the basic problem with this?  It's really quite simple.  
| Christians promote God's morals of behavior.  Many people enjoy doing things 
| that go against these morals, and will find any reason they can to rationalize
| away their conscience and the Christians both.  

	I'm sure for some this may be the case Steve. I also know for others
they can see how some have twisted the Bible around to mean something it does
not. I know others who see some of the hate that has happened by some
Christians and apply it to the whole lot (which is a bad idea IMHO). There are
many reasons for why people may reject religion. Please don't you dare use a
blanket statement like that. I would have thought you would have realized that.

| My favorite verse from the Bible "Seek the truth, and the truth will set you 
| free".  I wish I could explain to you how true and real this passage is.  
| Jesus is truth, says the Bible.  Seek Him, and He will open your eyes.

	Seeking Him doesn't seem to be the problem Steve. It's all the other
baggage that some humans attatch to it that does. He will show you the way. He 
will use many tools to do just that. But let Him do it, and stop taking matters 
in your own hands. 

Glen

You slipped, Glen.  You included as a 'fanatic' the one man in our time who
is a committed, firm, highly visible Christian yet who has retained the
respect of the whole world.  By painting Billy Graham with that brush, you
accidentally exposed your agenda that *anyone* who holds firm to Christ as
the Bible portrays Him is a 'fanatic.'

I don't have the time or energy to devote any more input to "Glen's Rathole,
chapter MMMDCCCLXVIII."

Paul

 While I may have some doctrinal disagreements with Dr. Graham, I believe
 one would be hard pressed to find any hint of controversy, or questionable
 practices with Dr. Graham or his organization.  He is indeed a man who has
 the respect of the whole world.




Jim

| <<< Note 58.94 by EVMS::PAULKM::WEISS "Trade freedom for His security-GAIN both" >>>



| You slipped, Glen.  You included as a 'fanatic' the one man in our time who
| is a committed, firm, highly visible Christian yet who has retained the
| respect of the whole world.  By painting Billy Graham with that brush, you
| accidentally exposed your agenda that *anyone* who holds firm to Christ as
| the Bible portrays Him is a 'fanatic.'

	I think you have slipped Paul. You did not read what I wrote all too
well. Let's try again:


	The Swaggarts, Koresh's, Bucannan's, Jim Jones of the world. You then
have some of the fundamentalists who go overboard. Pat Roberts, Billy Graham's,
etc. Their messages could mean a lot, but they are clouded with fear and with
some, hate. 


	Look at the key words. Fundamentalists who go overboard. They are not
the fanatics Paul. If you had read the note you would see that. Going overboard
does not equal a fanatic. 




Glen

    So, Glen.  Where do you think Billy Graham has gone overboard?  Does he
    tend to say "The Bible says...." too much for your liking? :-)
    
    Mark L.

 Amazing seeing Dr. Graham's name lumped in with Koresh, Swaggert, Jones,
 et al..




 Jim

re: .93
    
>	Then Steve, if you feel the system is so corrupt, so bad that you can't
>even believe in it, then why don't you either do something about....
    
    I do.  I vote, I send money to organization who support the
    Constitution, I give money to the church, and will soon be joining a
    new church program that goes to the poverty stricken areas and helps
    out in real ways.  The government has proven to me that all it wants is
    power and control.  If you can't see this, then you will be in for a
    rude awakening sometime in the near future.
    
>	Pessimist.... :-)  But are you sitting on your butt waiting for Christ
>or are you doing something about it now!?

    See above.  I do what little I can, but unless the rest of the nation
    takes some responsibility and helps out, too, the government will run
    roughshod over them.  Most of my efforts in the future will be geared
    towards helping out my community in whatever way I can.

>	There are many reasons for the decline Steve. Falling away from Christ
>is the biggie. But you say we need to do something, just what have you done?

    Actually, falling away from Christ isn't the biggie.  You will find
    very few people who have accepted Christ completely, falling away. 
    The big problem is the way the world system subtly takes away God from
    society, and fools those who do not know Christ into following Satan's
    path of deception.  Look at our country, we are a prime example of this
    process in action.  Satan takes God out of our everyday life, and
    promotes sin as "freedom" and a way of life that is not "bad".
    
| Who has uzzies?  The only kind of uzzies you can buy are semi-auto clones. ALL
| FULLY AUTOMATIC WEAPONS ARE COVERED BY THE 1934 GUN ACT. You have been fooled 
| by media bias and world system machinations.

>	I think it is you who have been fooled Steve. Why do you need any type
>of gun to protect you? Isn't God strong enough to do this? Is your faith strong
>enough to allow Him to do this? Aren't you now taking things in your hands 
>instead of letting Him protect and guide you?

    No Glen, I have not been fooled.  I do not buy into the liberal media
    garbage with regards to gun control.  Your statements speak for
    themselves, however.
    
    BTW, I do not currently own a firearm. 
    
>	Gee Steve, it's very easy. If you need to have protection and will not
>allow God to do it for you, a pistol should do the job. We're not at war Steve,
>we don't need semi-automatic weapons.

    We *are* at war, Glen.  Pretty soon if may be at your front doorstep. 
    God gave me common sense.  I am to take whatever precautions are needed
    to insure my own safety...it is *my* responsibility to take care of
    those things that I am able to.  God will take care of those things
    that I cannot control.  
    
>	I don't see all the God fearing people of this nation as anything that
>Jesus will be accepting. 
    
    So, you judge people now?  You know what is in their heart? 
    
>    Those who are so filled with hate and everything else
>are the majority of the ones you hear about. So don't give me this God-fearing
>stuff because a lot of the people who still are God fearing have a big chunk in
>all this decline too. 

    By reason of inaction, yes, believers must share the blame of many of
    today's ills.  They are not the cause, though.
    
| We are witnessing a desensitization of Americans to a POLICE STATE.  

>	Show me examples.

    Remember Hitler?  He thought things like abortion (mental conditioning
    to devalue life), multiculturalism (jews bad, blond hair, blue eyes
    ayriams (sp?) good), warrentless searches (Chicago), attacking
    religions not condoned by the state (Waco), gun control (one of his
    first measures), and propaganda/lies by the media (watch any news
    program on gun control-amoung other things...why do they lie so much?)
    were wonderful things.  
    
    Please wake up before it's too late.
    
>	Leave Chelsea Ma out of this! :-)  You cry because things are going
>bad. You say we need change. You don't want government to step in at all, so
>we will sit here and do what? It appears that if you need a gun for protection
>that you can't believe God will be strong enough to help us out of this.

    God tells us to be fair and just.  I see injustices abounding in
    government forced programs.  I see the government dismantling the
    document we were founded on (actually, there are two documents we are
    founded on- the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence...the
    DoI has been neutered already, since "natural law" is interpreted quite
    wrong today), peice by piece.  And as they continue to destroy the
    moral and psychological base that once made our nation the best and
    strongest nation in the world, chaos and crime is the result.  Now,
    their answer to the problems they have legislated is to make available
    more helpless victims by banning guns.  Don't be naive, they will not
    stop until all guns are banned, and then the general population will
    have no means of effective self defense.
    
>	Steve, I sometimes wonder what you hold more dear. The Constitution or
>the 10 commandments. I see you talk more about the constitution than most
>anything else. Figuring you out is certainly hard.

    You fail to see the significane between how we became a truly free
    nation and the inspiration behind the Constitution and the Declaration
    of Independence.  I hold the Bible as sacred...I hold the Constitution
    as a sign that at one time, people understood what true freedom really
    requires.  The Constitution and its conscience (the DoI), show that we
    once had direction, faith, and knew what it took to remain a free
    nation.  If you will read the commentaries by many of those who framed
    the Constitution, you will find that the Constitution would never
    protect the freedoms of an atheist nation.  Morals and God could not be
    separated from a free society without terrible consequences.  We are
    finding out today that they were right.
    
>	Tell me Steve, what major cuts in programs would you make? 

    Welfare (in all its varied forms).  The IRS.  The department of 
    agriculture (too many bureacrats per farmer), BATF, old programs that no 
    longer do much of anything and only exist because they somehow take on a 
    life of their own after implementation, CIA, FBI, Dept. of Housing and 
    Urban Development...
    
    I'm sure there are many more cuts, but these would be a good start.
    
>	The Swaggarts, Koresh's, Bucannan's, Jim Jones of the world. You then
>have some of the fundamentalists who go overboard. Pat Roberts, Billy Graham's,
>etc. Their messages could mean a lot, but they are clouded with fear and with
>some, hate. 

    What has Billy Graham done that is evil or filled with hate?  I think
    your agenda is starting to show here.
    
>	I'm sure for some this may be the case Steve. I also know for others
>they can see how some have twisted the Bible around to mean something it does
>not. 
    
    Okay, who is twisting the Bible around today?  Am I twisting it? 
    Anyone else in this conference?  Just curious.
    
>    Please don't you dare use a
>blanket statement like that. I would have thought you would have realized that.

    The blanket statement I used previously (though I deleted it from this
    note to limit the line count) is a fact.  I'm not getting down on
    anyone here, just pointing out the most basic ways we come to accept
    the deceptions of the world system.  I even used myself as example,
    admitting that I too, was a victim of this mentality.  Some lessons
    come very hard, but they are worth the pain if you learn from them.
    
    -steve

    ARGH!  I did it again...and I really tried to reply in under 100 lines! 
    Really.

    II Chronicles 7:14  
    
    "If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and
     pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I
     hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their
     land."

| <<< Note 58.97 by CHTP00::CHTP04::LOVIK "Mark Lovik" >>>



| So, Glen.  Where do you think Billy Graham has gone overboard?  Does he
| tend to say "The Bible says...." too much for your liking? :-)


	He tends to blow things a little bit out of proportion.



Glen

>	He tends to blow things a little bit out of proportion.

    For example?
    
    Mark L.

>             <<< Note 58.101 by FRETZ::HEISER "no D in Phoenix" >>>
>           -< God Bless Billy Graham and his diligence for the Word >-

>    II Chronicles 7:14  
    
>    "If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and
>     pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I
>     hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their
>     land."

    Not to change the subject, but I think I read in the paper that this
    scripture is the theme for this year's National Day of Prayer.  If only
    our leaders would heed it!  All the money in the world being thrown at
    our problems is not going to change anything, especially the downward
    spiral that we are in.  I'm glad to know who is really in charge here!

    Ron

    Re: Note 58.103 by CHTP00::CHTP04::LOVIK

�>	He tends to blow things a little bit out of proportion.

�    For example?
    
    Good question, Mark. I am eagerly looking forward to the answer to this
    one. Should prove interesting.
    
    	BD�

Being Amercian was once something special.  Most of us truly love our country
and it saddens us to see it slipping away like this.  Here are some alarming
things that point to America's downfall through the economic realm.  The United
States we knew as children, is for all intents and purposes, over already.

First of all, don't confuse the deficit with the debt.  The debt is the
existing debt.  The deficit is that which we keep adding to the debt.  Set
aside the deficit and imagine that we balance the budget.  The existing debt of
the U.S. consumes 57� out of every tax dollar this year.  We don't have the cash
to pay the interest, so we borrow to pay the interest.  This is known to the
lender as compound interest (or gambler's ruin).  In the timeframe of 1995-1997,
estimates say that the interest on our existing debt will exceed the total tax
revenue from income and corporate taxes in this country.  There will be no money
after taxes for the government.  We have already used up our assets and are
bankrupt.  We're now using up our borrowing power and only survive because we
are able to borrow.  The day will come when we no longer will be able to borrow.
Our debt in this country is increasing by $1B (billion!) *EVERY DAY*!  And this
is without addressing the deficit spending that is increasing the debt at a
greater rate!

Most economic experts know that an economic collapse coming.  What they don't
know is 1.) what form will it take? (i.e., depression, hyperinflation) and
2.) how long will it take to get there?  In the meantime, the government is
doing all it can to confiscate assets to pay the interest.  In 1992, *52,000*
Americans had all their property seized without due process of law, which raised
$800M for the government.  In 80% of the cases, there were no charges filed and
they have no way of clearing their name.  With everything seized, they have no
money to hire attorneys.  In the few cases where they did have assets to pay for
clearing their names, after 2-3 years of court proceedings, they cleared their
name but never recovered their assets.  Why?  Because the government distributed
the assets.  20% to the informers that led to the seizure, 80% to be kept by the
controlling government agency.  The good news is that there is enough
communication about this now that Washington will have to act on it, but you can
see the government is desperate to find ways of generating revenue.

There are 2 things the government can't do.  They can't raise taxes much more
than what Clinton has already proposed, and they can't afford for interest
rates to go up because it will brutalize their debt.  One of the major
motivating factors behind the national Health Plan is cash flow for the
government.  In it, government will control 52� out of every medical dollar.
Again, here you need to see through the rhetoric.

Look at all the increases in society.  Everything was nominal until the early
1960's and everything starts escalating: teen pregnancies, violent crime, etc.
News reports are consumed by crime stories - society is coming apart.  Many
point to U.S. Supreme Court decisions then around school prayer (1963) and
ultimately Roe vs. Wade, as major contributors.  Coincidence?  Maybe but
highly doubtful.  We have an administration that promotes immorality.  Other
administrations weren't model citizens, but they didn't openly promote
immorality.  Look at condom ads on TV, these violate FCC broadcasting rules for
advertising and are also lies.  HIV cells are 1/10 of a micron and latex has
pores in it that are 5 microns large.  It's like firing a BB-gun through a
chain-link fence.  They have a 30% failure rate.  Another tragedy is the
current administration's policy for the support lies and deceit.  

The smart money today is moving to the sidelines.  The chief investment officer
of Morgan Stanley has stated publicly, "I'm moving my money as far away from
Bill & Hillary as I can."  The real problem is not financial but moral - II
Chronicles 7:14.  Only a miracle can save the U.S., but the good news is that
God is in the miracle business.  See how God worked through Jonah to save
Ninevah.  They repented from top-down when they were 40-days from ground zero,
and God spared judgment on them.

We don't know how long the U.S. has, but current indicators say it won't be
long.

Mike

    Re: Note 58.91 by CSOA1::LEECH
    
�    You want to know the basic problem with this?  It's really quite
�    simple.  Christians promote God's morals of behavior.
    
    This is excellent, Steve. It really is quite simple. While legislators,
    politicians, pundits, etc., are all scrambling to solve our myriad of
    problems, they're merely (probably unwittingly) putting patches on the
    symptoms. As you say, it's simple. The - and I do mean *the* - problem
    is the abandonment of God. Given that most folks in the world want to
    live their lives their way, I'm afraid that we're in an inexorable
    spiral towards the dumpster.
    
    	BD�

 Re last 2...AMEN!





 Jim

    Some rumors about the EUC:  with 9 languages being represented, they
    need to adopt a single language.  English, French, and German are out
    for obvious reasons.  The rumored solution is Latin!  Of course, they
    are all derived from that, but the prophetic implications are
    astounding.
    
    Mike

| <<< Note 58.99 by CSOA1::LEECH "Homer of Borg,prepare to be..MMM,beer" >>>

| I do.  I vote, 

	But they are corrupt! This is not a good thing to do. Unless you really
think inside that getting certain people into office actually will have an
impact on they system. But one thing I wonder is if you think this is a true
statement, would you change your position on the government taking a stand on
things?

| I send money to organization who support the Constitution, 

	This is what I mean. Why support something that is only good for the
humanistic side of things? Does the Constitution please God? Next to His
commandments the Constitution is trash. Why do you put so much effort into it
when you could actually use that effort and money to please God?

| I give money to the church, and will soon be joining a new church program that
| goes to the poverty stricken areas and helps out in real ways.  

	Steve, when you say in real ways, what do you mean by that. I'd like to
see the difference between your ways and the governments.

| The government has proven to me that all it wants is power and control.  

	Then why do you vote? Seems to me if you really think this is true then
voting would be a complete waste of time.

| Actually, falling away from Christ isn't the biggie.  You will find very few 
| people who have accepted Christ completely, falling away.

	You will also find very few people to agree who has actually accepted
Christ. 

| Look at our country, we are a prime example of this process in action. Satan 
| takes God out of our everyday life, and promotes sin as "freedom" and a way 
| of life that is not "bad".

	I agree with this Steve. But what I don't think we, or even those who
you feel are Christians will agree on is what really is sin, what is not. Nancy
believes Catholics are not saved. Would all Christians believe this? Nope. 

| Is your faith strong enough to allow Him to do this? Aren't you now taking 
| things in your hands instead of letting Him protect and guide you?

| No Glen, I have not been fooled.  I do not buy into the liberal media garbage 
| with regards to gun control.  Your statements speak for themselves, however.

	Wow.... ya glossed right over the faith stuff. Why is that Steve?

| BTW, I do not currently own a firearm.

	Do you tell others you don't need a gun, you have God to protect you?
With you being so opposed to taking guns away from people I kind of think you
don't. It would seem like this is one area where you put the constitution ahead
of God.

| We *are* at war, Glen.  Pretty soon if may be at your front doorstep. God gave
| me common sense.  I am to take whatever precautions are needed to insure my 
| own safety...it is *my* responsibility to take care of those things that I am 
| able to.  

	Steve, could this be one of those things you were talking about that
Satan has taken which is bad and made it into good? Think about it. What is the
end result with a gun in most cases in this country? Some living creature is
either wounded or killed. This is something good? These are actually tools of
war. Let God fight your wars Steve. Let Him run your life completely. 

| God will take care of those things that I cannot control.

	And by following your method of doing things, how many times did you
end up doing the wrong thing because you thought you had control? Maybe you
weren't being clear, and if you weren't let me know. For *me* I know even with
the things I know I can do I try and ask God for help with. This way He is
involved with as much with my life as possible. 

| >	I don't see all the God fearing people of this nation as anything that
| >Jesus will be accepting.

| So, you judge people now?  You know what is in their heart?

	The above is my opinion. It does not mean God will see it that way. I
guess I should have put IMHO at the end, but I thought the words, "I think"
took care of that. Now to clarify it, I am basing it on their actions. You are
correct when you say I can not know what is in their hearts. But I guess then
maybe what we should do is decide if what is in their hearts is truly good
intentions, will God accept this as being ok? 

| By reason of inaction, yes, believers must share the blame of many of
| today's ills.  They are not the cause, though.

	We agree to disagree. They are part of the cause, and it is not based
JUST on inaction.

| Remember Hitler?  He thought things like abortion (mental conditioning to 
| devalue life), multiculturalism (jews bad, blond hair, blue eyes ayriams good)

	And that is happening today? BTW, I can think of a time when certain
people were put under electric shock therapy for a number of ills. Remember
Steve? Where was the religious community then? They were helping pull the
switches.

| warrentless searches (Chicago), 

	Steve, show me where the searches in Chicago are the same as the ones
committed in Hitler's time.

| attacking religions not condoned by the state (Waco), 

	Yeah, they go there to get guns, it gets out of hand (because they were
tipped off) and now that's attacking. Uh huh.....

re .109

English and German are not derived from Latin.

French is.

/john

| <<< Note 58.99 by CSOA1::LEECH "Homer of Borg,prepare to be..MMM,beer" >>>

| gun control (one of his first measures), and propaganda/lies by the media 
| (watch any news program on gun control-amoung other things...why do they lie 
| so much?) 

	Steve, all media, which includes religious as well, have a way of
presenting things. You take each group, give them the same facts, and the story
will be different. Who is lieing and who is not? 

| God tells us to be fair and just.  I see injustices abounding in government 
| forced programs.  

	Such as.....

| I see the government dismantling the document we were founded on (actually, 
| there are two documents we are founded on- the Constitution and the Declaratio
| of Independence...

	Funny, I thought the document you followed was called the Bible. Silly
me. Can you see why I think you hold the constitution ahead of the Bibleat times

| more helpless victims by banning guns.  Don't be naive, they will not stop 
| until all guns are banned, and then the general population will have no means 
| of effective self defense.

	I suppose we would have to rely soley on faith, huh? Seems to me that
is a much better defense than a gun. I can't figure out why you don't see this.

| You fail to see the significane between how we became a truly free nation and 
| the inspiration behind the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence.  
| I hold the Bible as sacred...I hold the Constitution as a sign that at one 
| time, people understood what true freedom really requires.  

	God. Plain and simple. You don't need a Constitution for that. God
Himself will take care of that all on his own. It really does seem as though
the Constitution comes between you and God....

| you will find that the Constitution would never protect the freedoms of an 
| atheist nation.  Morals and God could not be separated from a free society 
| without terrible consequences.  We are finding out today that they were right.

	I do agree with what you say about seperating God and morals, but there
was more to freedom than what you have stated. Somehow I seem to remember
something called taxes had something to do with it. Could be wrong though...

| Welfare (in all its varied forms).  

	In what parts? How much is given to each person or cut out altogether?

| The IRS.  

	The country would love you instantly! :-)  But seriously, in what areas
with the IRS? People, programs, what? 

| The department of agriculture (too many bureacrats per farmer), 

	OK, this one I need help on. What led you to believe this? I'm not
disagreeing, as there is always some sort of waste with government, but I don't
know anything about the agriculture part of it all, so any insight would be
helpful.

| BATF, 

	I feel foolish, but wha? 

| old programs that no longer do much of anything and only exist because they 
| somehow take on a life of their own after implementation, 

	Can you think of any in particular? Also, would you restructure them to
work or would you just do away with them?

| CIA, FBI, Dept. of Housing and Urban Development...

	Hey, I guess you want to get rid of government all the way! How about a
tea party? 

| Their messages could mean a lot, but they are clouded with fear and with some,
| hate.

| What has Billy Graham done that is evil or filled with hate?  

	Hmmm, you are the 3rd person to ask, so maybe it wasn't clear enough.
Pat Roberts and Billy Graham are 2 people that tend to blow things out of
proportion. Actually, I think I just saw what is confusing people. When I said:

Their messages could mean a lot, but they are clouded with fear and with some, 
hate.

	It was directed at all of the people listed above. Not just Pat &
Billy. I think fear does work it's way into Billy's words, but I doubt hate
does. That's why I put "some, hate". The Pat Buccannan's of the world seem to
have hate in their messages.

| >	I'm sure for some this may be the case Steve. I also know for others
| >they can see how some have twisted the Bible around to mean something it does
| >not.

| Okay, who is twisting the Bible around today?  Am I twisting it? Anyone else 
| in this conference?  Just curious.

	You know, why you keep things just to this file is amazing. You stated
why you thought the decline was happening. I add to it and you bring it to a
conference level only. Hmmm..... look at it from the worrld position (like you
were doing with yours) and tell me it is not the case for some people!

| The blanket statement I used previously is a fact.  

	Agreed. But it is far from the ONLY reason.

 Who is Pat Roberts?

       <<< Note 58.104 by AMWS06::THELLEN "Ron Thellen, DTN 522-2952" >>>

>>             <<< Note 58.101 by FRETZ::HEISER "no D in Phoenix" >>>
>>           -< God Bless Billy Graham and his diligence for the Word >-

>>    II Chronicles 7:14  
    
>>    "If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and
>>     pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I
>>     hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their
>>     land."

>    Not to change the subject, but I think I read in the paper that this
>    scripture is the theme for this year's National Day of Prayer.  If only
>    our leaders would heed it!  All the money in the world being thrown at
>    our problems is not going to change anything, especially the downward
>    spiral that we are in.  I'm glad to know who is really in charge here!
    
    
    I think this was the theme for the National Day of Prayer last year
    too.
    
    In response to the Leaders needing the message that is true, but look
    at the verse, it puts the burden on us, Gods People.  Add to this
    Jonah 3:5-6
    
    5 So the people of Neneveh believed God and proclaimed a fast and put on
      sackcloth from the greatest of them even to the least of them.
    
    6 For word came unto the King of Nineveh and he arose from his throne,
      and he arose from his throne, and he laid his robe from him, and
      covered him with sackcloth, and sat in ashes.
    
    Once again we see it starting with the people, and then when the King
    heard of what the people were doing, he was then convicted.  It did not
    start with the King proclaiming it to be done.
    
    A tough message to Christians to be sure.
    
    Sparky

    Glen, I'm tired of playing "cut and paste" with you.  The line lengths
    are multiplying much too quickly.
    
    You don't seem to understand a few basic facts...I will try to clarify
    my position.
    
    I am a Christian FIRST AND FORMOST, a patriot second.  God's moral code
    is plainly written in the Bible and I will not follow any laws or
    support any programs that go against these morals in spirit or
    implementation.  That said, you may understand why I'm at odds with the
    current administration and government.  You may also see why I view the
    Constitution and the DoI as being a very valuable and yes, Godly,
    documents for running a nation.  If contains the basis for a moral society 
    under God.
    
    The Constitution and the DoI firmly define inaliable rights granted by
    God that were not to be infringed.  I believe God was with these men in
    their efforts of creating a truly free nation, from which the Gospel of
    Christ could be spread throughout the world (in some commentaries, this
    is mentioned specifically as the purpose of our nation).  
    
    Too bad we turned our backs on God.  Once the athiest mentality was
    brought into this nation, attacks on the Constitution began.  Early on,
    such attacks were quickly shot down (read old SC cases of bigamy,
    pornography, and blasphmy....very enlightening indeed), as the Justices
    knew the intent of the Constitution well, and did not allow any
    redefinition of its spirit or words. 
    
    Unfortunately, as humanism and atheism spread, this new mentality
    spread into the government, too.  Understanding of our purpose and of
    the most basic tenants of the Constitution and its conscience, the DoI,
    became foggy.  This was the beginning of the end for the US.  Without
    God, we do not know who we are, and we certainly do not understand
    where we came from or the true purpose of this nation (and of course,
    with this, we lost sight of the spirit behind the Constitution and DoI,
    which has lead to its reinterpretation).
    
    Today, we do not adhere to the Constitution, much less God.  Though 
    everybody claims rights and freedoms, they have no idea what they speak 
    of...they have no idea of what the cost of these things must be.  Freedom 
    to do whatever you want (within the boundaries of not directly physically
    assaulting one another), is not what the FF had in mind.  This sort of
    freedom does not come from God, who calls us to behave morally- BY HIS
    STANDARDS-it comes from the world system that is run by Satan.
    
    If you do not believe that Satan is alive and well in the world, then
    he has already won one very important battle.  You cannot fight what
    you do not believe exists.  You will fall victim to his shrewd and
    subtle traps.
    
    If you doubt any of this, then explain why we have gotten away from the
    intent and spirit of the Constitution and DoI.  Explain why we promote
    indulgence in all manner of sexual encounters- guilt free.  Explain how
    we can retionalize forcing honest workers to support people who refuse
    to work?  Why we can allow the butchering of our own unborn?  
    Why we have created an environment which causes divorce and crime, and
    irresponsibility?
    
    When the people of a nation turn against God, you can expect that
    nation to get the leadership and the results it rightly deserves.  Too
    bad folks are too indoctrincated in the world system to figure out what
    went wrong.  
    
    I can relate to the mentality (as I said before)...only
    after accepting Christ did I begin to discover how utterly controlled
    by the world system I was.  Every time I think on this, I am amazed
    that I ever accepted Christ...but His promise is trustworthy and true. 
    "Seek the truth, and the truth will set you free"...litterally. (yes, I
    like to repeat this phrase over and over..8^) ) 
    
    How many times does Jesus say "don't be decieved"?  
    
    -steve

 Saw a couple reports last night that served to convince me even more that
 the time is drawing near..



 .Arafat's comments regarding "Jihad" to take Jerusalem

 .Research that is expected to lead to a cashless society..




 
Jim

    Islam is looking for a "Jihad" whether Israel gives concessions or not.

 Yep...I didn't hear the whole report..just what I read yesterday in
 another conf and what I saw on the 700 Club last night.




Jim

Daniel 11:41
He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be
overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and
the chief of the children of Ammon.

    It is interesting to know that Jordan is one of the few areas that
    *escape* the rule of the coming Antichrist.  This area will be a refuge
    for the remnant that flees to Jerusalem when under attack during the
    Great Tribulation (Isaiah 16:1, 63:1, Micah 2:12, Matthew 24:15-22).
    Perhaps the current arrangements between Israel and Jordan are a
    prelude to this refuge.
    
    Mike

    I was thrilled to catch Hal Lindsay on TBN last night.  For those of
    you wondering where he's been, he has been pastoring his own church in
    southern California.  The good news is that he felt the Lord impressing
    upon him about what he was called to do.  He felt God telling him he
    wasn't called to be a pastor, but a teacher of prophecy.  Because of
    this, he's back into prophecy studies with full force.  
    
    Hal has just released "Planet Earth - 2000 A.D." and has 3 more books 
    nearing completion.  One of these, "The Last Battle," is a collaboration 
    with the editor of "Intelligence Digest."  This secular periodical is
    known for its accuracy in developing world events.  This secular editor
    is also of the opinion that man's time on earth is running out based on
    Middle East events.  Having read some of Hal's books, he contacted him
    to do this book together.  He presents the secular information, while
    Hal relates the information to Biblical prophecy.  Sounds fascinating!
    
    Some of the highlights of the evening centered around nuclear
    technology in Israel.  The primary motivation for all these peace
    treaties is Israeli protection now that many Islamic countries have
    nuclear capabilities.  Israel now depends on international defense and
    council for protection.  This also sets up the peace & support agreement 
    that Israel will sign with the Antichrist out of the Roman Empire.  
    
    Israel's top military strategists state that in giving away the crucial 
    West Bank, the only way they can defend themselves now is via nuclear 
    strike.  Knowing the potentcy of nuclear weapons, you know that a 
    detonation at close range will destroy your own nation as well.  You may 
    recall Samuel Cohen invented the neutron bomb back during the Carter 
    administration.  Since the U.S. didn't encourage or support him in that 
    technology, he took his services to Israel.  Since that time, they have 
    perfected the technology to pinpoint nuclear strike capabilities.  They 
    have mini-nukes, softball-sized neutron bombs with a coverage of 
    600-meter radius (about a � mile) and complete dissipation within 15 
    minutes.  Israeli ground troops can acutally safely go through the area 
    15 minutes after detonation!  You may also recall that the neutron bomb 
    destroys (melts) people only (before they hit the ground) and doesn't 
    affect buildings/structures.  Now read the amazing prophecy in Zechariah!
    
Zechariah 14:12
And this shall be the plague wherewith the lord will smite all the people that
have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand
upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their
tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

    I've entered in here about the pact between Moscow & Tehran.  Hal
    touched on it as well.  It's a basic agreement of weapons and military 
    support for Iran in exchange for soothing Islamic tensions in Russia.  
    This could be the hook in Russia's jaw per Ezekiel 38-39 that would force 
    them to attack Israel.  They would have to support Iran in such an attack 
    under this agreement.  Russia today has 30 Red October class submarines
    patroling the Atlantic with 200 nuclear warheads on each one.  This
    essentially prevents us from coming to Israel's defense and isolates
    God's people.  This allows for God to intervene on Israel's behalf in a
    mighty way as told in Ezekiel 38-39!
    
    Mike

    Another tidbit from Hal I forgot to mention is on major earthquakes. 
    From 1900-1950, the world averaged 3 major earthquakes (6.0 and above)
    per decade.  From 1950-1960 there were 13; 1960-1970 there were 30;
    1970-1980 there were 52; 1980-1990 there were 87; and so far in this
    decade (3� years) there have been over 100!
    
    The one on June 9th that was 400 miles below South America was the
    strongest quake ever recorded by seismologists.  The estimates are that
    it was a 10!
    
    Mike

    Hi,
    
    I've been a Christian for ~8 years now, although I'm really now just
    starting to make wholehearted efforts to be obedient to the Word of
    God.
    
    I was looking through these notes just recently and noticed that 58.0
    mentions that the EUC symbol is "The Tower of Babal" under
    construction....with the saying 'Many tounges, one Nation'. 
    
    I know this was written last year (1993) and my question is this;
    
    Is it absolutely factual that the symbol is "The Tower of Babal" ? And
    can people get verification on this? 
    
    Thanks in advance. /Mark

    Mark, I don't know if it was officially adopted yet, but it was in the
    planning stages.  The idea of resurrecting Latin for the official EUC
    language was also being tossed around.
    
    Maybe our European contributors can verify this.
    
    Mike

    Thanks Mike,
    
    I think this would be amazing for them to adopt that symbol, a sure
    sign to Christians anyway..
    
    Any European folks over there that can verify this, and if so, where
    the Symbol could be viewed etc. 
    
    I raised this question because an Elder in a Church (won't mention)
    made a statement that the "EUC has nothing nothing nothing to do with
    the book of Revelation". I know it's difficult to make accurate
    interpratations to say the least...but that's why I'm asking. 
    
    Thanks again! /Mark

>    I raised this question because an Elder in a Church (won't mention)
>    made a statement that the "EUC has nothing nothing nothing to do with
>    the book of Revelation". I know it's difficult to make accurate
>    interpratations to say the least...but that's why I'm asking. 
    
    The EUC probably has more to do with the statue in Daniel representing
    the various empires throughout history.  However, to say Revelation
    doesn't parallel Daniel (or Ezekiel, Amos, Zechariah, or any of the
    prophetic books) is simply incorrect.  
    
    Mike

    I have to agree with you Mike. 
    
    Thanks again! /Mark

    I'm British and have heard nothing about Latin being adopted as a
    common language or about the Tower of Babel being adopted as some
    symbol to represent Europe. Perhaps one of the others have heard so?   
    There is Esperanto, but I always thought that this was a trade language
    and nothing to do with Europe.

    .128
    
    got a lot on yer mind, bro? :-)

 re .128...man, that oughta be some note..its *still* being written!





Jim

    Our pastor just returned from 2 weeks in Israel and is relating all
    sorts of neat and wonderful information.  For instance, he actually got
    to personally see the priests' garments and golden utensils that already
    have been made to be used in the 3rd Temple.
    
    There's also some real provocative information about the Dome of the
    Tablets, as well as a new discovery of a 1st century Jewish-Christian 
    synagogue found near the Upper Room shrine.
    
    1st-century Jewish historian, Neander (sp?) wrote in his works that
    there were over 1,000,000 Jewish-Christians in Israel by the year 100
    A.D.
    
    more teasers as I get them ;-)
    Mike

The idea of these Zionists building the 3rd Temple is, of course, totally silly.

What many Orthodox Jews believe is that the 3rd Temple will be built by God.

And they are right.  However, they missed when it happened.

Three days after the crucifixion.

/john

According to the premillenial understanding of prophecy (which is my
position), there are (at least) two more physical temples to be built in
Jerusalem.  The first is built in unbelief/ignorance, and is desecrated by
the antichrist, as forewarned in Daniel's prophecy (9:27) and by Jesus'
reference indicating that at His time it was yet to occur (Matthew 24:15, 
Mark 13:14).  This is the one I believe is in preparation now.

The second is as described in Ezekiel 40-42, and is Jesus' residence for 
His millenial reign, in Revelation 20:4, Zechariah 14:9 etc.

When Jesus entered Jerusalem on a donkey, as recorded in Matthew 21, Mark 1 
Luke 19 and John 12, He was acclaimed by the (ordinary) people.  Had He 
been accepted by the leadership, this would have been when He would reign, 
so He went to the temple - the palce where God dwells with His people, so
Jesus' rightful abode.  Instead of receiving a welcome there, He found it 
occupied by mercenary traders, who He ejected.  At His next coming, He 
will stay and reign from the temple.

I used to wonder why He followed the encouragement of that welcome with the 
contrast of the temple situation, and it was only as I realised that He can 
only come as LORD of all that I realised.  He didn't come to rule over a 
private group, but to offer salvation to anyone who would accept Him.

							Andrew

    I've said before in here that the building of the 3rd Temple is not 
    ordained of God in scripture.  The 4th Temple is in the Messianic Kingdom.
    What's exciting about the 3rd Temple is the ushering in of the final
    stage.
    
    Over in BAGELS, a member stated that the 3rd Temple is ordained of God
    in Ezekiel 37,40-48, but that is incorrect for several reasons.  If 
    Ezekiel is to be taken literally, the Temple square would be 3.5 miles X 
    140 yards according to 42:20.  This is roughly 6 times the circuit of the 
    wall enclosing the old Temple and larger than the earthly Jerusalem.  The 
    entire coverage of the Temple area, including the holy ground for priests 
    would be 3-4,000 square miles.  This is as large as the whole Judea west 
    of the Jordan.  Neither does this describe a past Temple (Solomon or
    Herod) because the river didn't flow out of either of them and the
    dimensions don't match.  A symbolic or spiritualizing interpretation is
    wrong because of the fact that Ezekiel was told to write down every minute 
    detail so that they could be followed (40:4, 43:10-11, 44:5).

    Back to the current Temple Mount...   North of the Dome of the Rock,
    and directly west of the Eastern Gate, is a small open-air dome known
    as the Dome of the Tablets (provocative name too).  Underneath is the 
    only piece of flat bedrock used for flooring on all of Temple Mount.  
    There is a growing belief that this was the site of the Holy of Holies in 
    Herod's Temple for some of the following reasons:
    
    - There exists photos taken with ground-penetrating radar (I have
      copies of them) that show the foundation of the Antonia Fortress which
      was right next to the Temple.  There is a large gap between the Dome of
      the Rock and the Antonia Fortress foundation.
    
    - The flooring used in the Temple was flat bedrock.  The only flat
      bedrock on all of Temple Mount is under the Dome of the Tablets.
    
    - It's been said (might even be documented) that on Yom Kippur, the High 
      Priest could look out from the Holy Place, through the Temple entrance, 
      through the Eastern Gate, and onto the Mt. of Olives, to see the signal 
      that the Azazel (Scapegoat) had disappeared into the Judean wilderness.  
      The Dome of the Tablets is directly across from the Eastern Gate facing 
      the Mt. of Olives.
    
    Solid evidence continues to defeat the notion that the Dome of the Rock 
    is on the original Temple site.  This is paving the way for building the 
    3rd Temple on Temple Mount without disturbing the Dome of the Rock.
    
    Mike

    Re: 1,000 days = 1 day; 1 day = 1,000 years
    
    Tony's recent reply inthe FAQ topic reminded me of this.  Try
    contrasting 2 Peter 3:8 to Hosea 6:2.  I think it's very provocative!
    ;-)
    
    Also, if you check Sanhedrin 97A in the Talmud, you'll see that Elijah
    taught that there would be 2,000 years of the Torah, 2,000 years of
    chaos, and 2,000 years of the Messiah.  Interesting in light of verses
    like Revelation 12:12.
    
    Mike

Yeah, I've noted things like that too.  I think I said this recently, but
can't remember if it was here.  There were about 2000 years from the breaking
of fellowship with God by Adam to the beginning of the first covenant with
Abraham , about 2000 years from that time to the coming of Christ and the new
covenant, and about 2000 years since then.  Revelation speaks of a 1000 years
of rest under the rule of Christ.

Hmmmm....  6 time periods (a thousand years is as a day) of working things
out, followed by 1 time period of rest.  Where have I ever heard of such a
sequence before?  :-) :-)

Paul

    So we basically have 5 years left!!! ;-)

>    So we basically have 5 years left!!! ;-)

...with a large amount of uncertainty!

	When did the time of Messiah begin?  He is thought to have been
born about 3 BC, right?  He was obviously conceived about nine months
before His birth.  His ministry began at about age 30.  He was crucified
and resurrected at about age 33.

	Where should we reckon the beginning of the two millenia?

I believe that the year by date is much too apporximate to say '5 years
left'.  And the 'day as a thousand years' is a very tentative extrapolation
of the text.  However, I tend to think that it is so principally because it 
coincides with all the other indications of today.  The 

Mike, how do you read the Hosea 6:2 text in this context - ie the second 
and third days?  Do you read them as  referring to the second and third 
millenia of creation, or two and three millenia after the prophecy?  Note 
also that it is 'after' two days (2000+), but 'in' the third day (also 2000+)
That's if the significance of 'after' and 'in' in this context are the same
as in today's English usage, with 
	0-999 being the first day
	1000-1999 being the second day ('after')
	2000-2999 being the third day ('in')

�    Also, if you check Sanhedrin 97A in the Talmud, you'll see that Elijah
�    taught that there would be 2,000 years of the Torah, 2,000 years of
�    chaos, and 2,000 years of the Messiah.

He omitted the millennium?  I don't have the Talmud.  Is it readily 
available, and generally helpful in background study?

I wouldn't regard this as a valid precise date-setting exercise - that's 
out by Matthew 24:36 etc - though in that connection, it is interesting to 
note what is included and what is omitted from the area of man's knowledge.
As far as 'days' go, a random number is introduced by Matthew 24:22, which 
I take to mean an abbreviation of the age, rather than a shortening of 
individual days.

What is clearly important is that we recognise His imminence by the events
and spirit of the age, rather than by a logic calculation.  As indicated 
in Matthew 24:32 (the fig tree etc), and the awareness of 1 Thessalonians
5:4..., which shows the Christian as walking close enough to the LORD to
hear Him coming. 

But it makes exciting straws in the wind...

								Andrew 

    I could be way off, but I take the 2,000 years of the Messiah (that
    Elijah spoke of) to *not* include the millenium.  The Talmud can be
    useful for explaining the Jewishness of the Bible.  It's probably
    available in a good Jewish bookstore.  
    
    A good example of this was our lesson on Sunday night.  We were
    discussing the mark of the beast in Revelation 13.  If you are familiar
    with the Tephillim that the Jews wear, and its significance, Satan's
    placement and implementation of 666 is really brought to light.  When you
    recall that the first ones to read Revelation were Jews, you realize
    that they knew exactly what was going on.
    
    As for Hosea 6:2, coupled with when God inspired Hosea to write this, I
    believe the end of the 2nd day was in 1948.  I believe "He will raise
    us up on the 3rd day" refers to the millenial kingdom.
    
    Mike

I don't want this to turn into a discussion of whether Jesus' return will
involve him being born as a human again.  It certainly doesn't sound from
Scripture that it will be that way, but the Jews missed the Messiah because
they were sure about their interpretations of what the prophecies meant, so
I'm not entirely sure.  And I'll bet Satan isn't either.

When Moses, the deliverer prophesied among the Jews captive in Egypt, was
born Satan incited the Pharaoh to slaughter children to try to thwart the
birth of the deliverer.

When Jesus, the deliverer prophesied for millenia as the promised Messiah,
was born Satan incited Herod to slaughter children to try to thwart the birth
of the deliverer.

In the past 20 years there has been the greatest wholesale slaughter of
children through abortion that the world has ever seen.  Is Satan afraid of
someone being born?

Maybe there's no connection, I wouldn't claim that there is.  But it does
make me stop and ponder.

Paul

re .140, Mike, I'd guess that Elijah would have to be omitting the millennium 
for that prophecy to hold any water.

� As for Hosea 6:2, coupled with when God inspired Hosea to write this, I
� believe the end of the 2nd day was in 1948.  I believe "He will raise
� us up on the 3rd day" refers to the millenial kingdom.
1948 being the end of the day of the gentiles?  That would add up.

re .141, Paul, Jesus only needed to be born once, as everyone is born once. 
All the prophecies of His return have Him descending from the sky, as promised
in Acts 1:11. 

The devil hates mankind because we are made in the image of God.  One of the
fulfillments of God's purposes for the earth is its population with replicas
of Himself (however distorted we may be) - Isaiah 45:18.  Satan hates people -
hence the sacrifice of babies in devil worship, which is really just a
continuation of canaanite practices.  The escalation in abortion etc is 'only'
an indication of how far from God mankind has fallen in this present age. 

								Andrew

>� As for Hosea 6:2, coupled with when God inspired Hosea to write this, I
>>� believe the end of the 2nd day was in 1948.  I believe "He will raise
>� us up on the 3rd day" refers to the millenial kingdom.
>1948 being the end of the day of the gentiles?  That would add up.
    
    Andrew, I believe Hosea is speaking from a Jewish perspective (what
    else?) in this passage.  1948 is the year the nation of Israel was
    re-born.
    
    Mike

� Andrew, I believe Hosea is speaking from a Jewish perspective (what else?) 
� in this passage.  1948 is the year the nation of Israel was re-born.

Agreed.  I am actually a gentile, and the majority of people I speak to
about the gospel are gentiles.  I sense a resistance to the gospel these
days which seems to have more than a tidal significance.  I know that this
is not universal, but it has enough indications with it to make me wonder
whether Luke 21:24 is looming.  It would seem to be a natural corollary to
the rebirth of Israel.  Or would you place the completion of the times of
the gentiles as marked explicitly by the rapture (granted our different
viewpoints on this)? 

							Andrew

>the rebirth of Israel.  Or would you place the completion of the times of
>the gentiles as marked explicitly by the rapture (granted our different
>viewpoints on this)? 
    
    Yes, this is how I view it.  The rapture ends the time of the Gentiles. 
    Daniel's 70 Weeks is God's timetable for dealing with Israel.
    
    Mike

    We just had 100 (including our sr. pastor and 2 asst. pastors) people 
    from our church return from 10 days in Israel.  There were lots of
    great testimonies and exciting news, but there was 1 astounding one!
    
    The Israelites have been excavating under the Western wall for some
    time and there is now an exhibit called the "Rabbis' Tunnel."  This
    tunnel takes you several feet into the Temple Mount onto an old buried
    street that was commonly used by people in the first century to enter
    the Temple courtyard (including Christ and the disciples).
    
    When several hundred feet into the tunnel, they are parallel to the
    original site of the Holy of Holies.  While there the guide told our 
    group that the Ark of the Covenant HAS BEEN FOUND DOWN THERE under the 
    mountain!!!  They have agreed to keep it in hiding with no public 
    announcement in order to not affect current peace negotiations.
    
    There's another amazing discovery at this point too, but I'll save that
    for later.
    
    Mike

    The "Ancient Secrets of the Bible" TV show series (now available on video)
    featuring the Ark of the Covenant was aired as a CBS special on May 15,
    1992.  During this segment, Rabbi Shlomo Goren and Yehuda Getz said "on
    camera" that they know where it is; "off camera" they said they've
    actually seen it!
    
    Mike