Conference vmszoo::rc

    Just for giggles, let me describe in more detail just what the Monogram
    bomber kits were like.
    
    Similar to the [supposedly] flyable Speedee-Bilt kits, the bomber
    kits had neatly machined balsa wings that consisted of upper and
    lower shells.  A minimal structure was built into one shell or the
    other, then the halves were glued together yielding a neat, almost
    ready to finish wing.
    
    The wings were then attached to a neat little jig, aroung which
    the fuselage was assembled, rather conventionally:  slab-sides were
    slipped over the wing and glued to the jig; formers were then added
    and machined balsa blocks glued on to provide the various
    contours/shapes of the fuse.  Tail feathers were shaped from sheet
    balsa parts to complete the basic structure.
    
    Now came the icing on the cake.  Engine nacelles, canopies, turrets
    and all other glazing, landing gear struts, pilot/crew figures were
    injection molded plastic pieces and, once added, really made the
    model come to life.
    
    After priming and painting, a fine set of water-transfer decals
    was applied and the result was the finest looking display model
    it was possible to build prior to the plastic revolution.  It took
    a lot more effort but the results were much more satisfying [to
    me] than were the plastic kits.  My best B-17 [I built 3 of them]
    won first place in its class 4-years straight in the Arizona State
    Fair's hobby exhibit and it was twice mistakenly put in the plastic
    model class to boot.
    
    I'd sure love ta' get my hands on these kits again where, with the
    increased skills gained over the years, I could do `em up really
    trick for perpetual display in the workshop.        
    
    Adios,	Al

I started on those 10-cent Comet solid models, remember them?
You got this box with a drawing and a couple of blocks of balsa,
or was it hardwood?  They used some stinky glue that you had to
mix with water, similar to Weldwood.  I can still smell it.

I built several of those before I discovered the 10-cent Comet
stick models.  I was especially fond of the Fokker DVII -- Can't
keep those numbers straight; it was the little bipane with the red
tissue.

About that time, around '50 or '51, I built some small square
rigger ship models.  Same thing, you got a block of balsa and a
drawing.  The whole thing was about 6 inches from stem to stern. 

Never liked the speedee-builts.  But about that time my mom
started working and during the summers I'd go to an aunt's place
all day.  My parents could afford those wonderful Monogram kits
with the plastic cowl and prop -- a whole buck!  I built the
Hellcat several times, still a favorite plane of mine -- I think
its because I saw John Wayne in some movie flying them, was it
"Flattop"?  That was the first Saturday matinee I ever saw. 

I almost got one Hellcat to fly.  I built it carefully and wound
the plastic prop.  It actually went about 10 feet before falling
to the concrete.   I think that if I had the sense to go get more
rubber -- they only gave you a single loop of 1/8-inch -- I'd
have had a winner.

Of course, the .25, .50, and $1.00 Comet models were wonderful.
I built most of them, as you probably did.  I think the .25
cent ones go for $5.00 or more now.

    Let's say a few words about a genre of static/display models that
    [probably] most of you have never heard of: solid models.
    
    I built a few of these as a _really_ young kid...my parents favored
    them due to the simplicity [verrry few parts] but, due to an acute
    lack of skills at that tender age, I never got a very good model
    as shaping, sanding, filling and finishing were the prime requisites
    to good results. These were skills I was a long time yet to develop.
    
    Comet had a line of 5 and 10 cent solid models and, while I have
    no recall of it, it was one of these that my Dad helped me hack
    out at age-3 while waiting for my lil' brother to be born.  I have
    little doubt that Dad did most of the hacking but both my parents
    agree that this was my first model airplane.  Incidentally, the
    year would've been 1943.
    
    The Comet kit was pretty crude, even by 1940's standards:  a 4"
    long model was built from a solid balsa block which had to be carved/
    sanded to some semblance of a fuselage by transferring patterns from 
    the plans(?) and checking contours with templates, also cut from the 
    plans.
    
    Wings and tail feathers had to be shaped from sheet balsa precut to
    outline but lacking any hint of an airfoil.  Then, the fuse had
    to be inletted to accept the flying surfaces and the whole mess
    filled with sanding sealer and finally, painted...a laborious process,
    even today, not to mention for a kid who was yet to have 2-digits
    in his age.  Decals were a thing of the future; markings had to
    be either hand-painted on or the black-and-white items cut from
    the plans and glued on.  As you may well expect, a really nice model
    was out of a kid's reach with these kits. I should add that plastic
    canopies and detail parts were still 8-10 years off; the canopy
    had to be painted on and a little cast metal prop was the only hardware
    you got with the Comet kit.
    
    Then there were the Strom-Becker kits.  More expensive, these kits
    had the fuselage and flying surfaces machined from some fine-grained
    hardwood...I couldn't say for sure just what it was anymore - it
    was a light colored but quite heavy wood.  At first glance, these
    appeared to be a lot easier to build as they were pre-shaped to
    almost, but not quite, final contour(s).  The rub was that they
    required carving/sanding to final shape and, for a kid who had bare
    minimum tools/skills for shaping balsa [read: razor blades and whatever
    flint sandpaper my carpenter grandfather would donate], this task
    proved more daunting than the Comet kits.  Root airfoils had to
    precisely shaped to fit the cutouts inletted into the fuselage and
    plastic wood was specified as the filler of choice (and that d*mn
    stuff was murder to apply smoothly and even harder to sand).
    
    Of the several Strom-Becker kits I had, I only managed to finish
    two of them: a B-24 Liberator and a B-47 Stratojet.  (And yes, smart-
    arses, they _did_ have jets when I was a kid!)  :8^)  But, both
    projects came to grief when it came time to apply the decals.  Yes,
    these kits had decals, but what decals; they were so ridiculously
    thin that this ham-handed kid found it absolutely impossible to
    transfer them from paper backing to model without having them tear,
    crumble and literally disintegrate.  Modeling was a rough game for
    kids back then, requiring skills and patience most kids [including
    this one] were years away from developing.  I used to jealously
    admire the jewel-like models made from these kits by adults and
    displayed in the hobby shops, resenting the fact that I couldn't
    produce the same results from the same kits.  But, for some reason,
    I never quit trying...I guess my love of airplanes forced me to
    persevere `til I _could_ get acceptable results.  Bear in mind I
    was not yet 10 years old.
    
    That's why the Monogram kits were such a boon to me.  Here at last
    was a series of kits aimed at the skill level of _kids_!  With just
    enough preshaped, easy to work with balsa parts and a few plastic
    detail parts to make the model live, a reasonable model was, at
    last, within the grasp of a kid.  The water-transfer decals were
    thick enough to tolerate the handling of a kid without going all
    to pieces and [they claimed] they'd even fly!
    
    Fuselages were of fairly conventional construction being built up
    from slab-sides and formers.  Preshaped and hollowed balsa blocks
    finished the difficult upper and lower nose contours while the
    turtledeck and belly areas were stringered and covered with tissue
    for lighter weight.  Wings were machined from balsa, the top surface
    being smoothly shaped while spanwise channels were machined into
    the bottom, again for light weight.  1/16" square "ribs" were placed
    chordwise into these channels and the bottom of the wing was then
    tissue covered.
    
    Plastic cowlings, containing engine details [if applicable] finished
    off the nose, a plastic pilot and canopy finished the cockpit.
    
    Balancing/flying instructions were included but I never had a lot
    of luck in this area...the best I could ever achieve was a sorta'
    semi-powered straight ahead glide of maybe 20' or so.  Still, this
    didn't diminish my fondness for these models as they were the first
    I was able to build that came out reasonably well and _looked_ like
    airplanes.  In time, I simply forewent the flying aspect and replaced
    all the tissue covering with balsa sheet/blocks, deferring instead for
    a nicer looking display model.
    
    After the advent of plastic models, and I did build a few, I continued
    to prefer the Monogram Speedee-Bilts as they provided a much higher
    degree of personal satisfaction and pride of accomplishment.  The
    4-bomber kits I've mentioned before provided for me even a higher level
    of satisfaction, so much so that I'd still love to build one or all 
    of these if I could get my hands on the long extinct kits.  With
    a much elevated skill level and the excellent finishing materials
    available today, they'd be real beauties.
    
    Adios,	Al

    John,
    
    I posted .4 before I saw yer' reply but, yes, as I mention in .4,
    I well remember the Comet solid model kits.  I don't recall the
    glue you mention though.  I _do_ remember that the Strom-Becker
    kits came with a packet of powdered glue that had to mixed with
    water...could it be that that's what yer' rememberin'?  I recall
    it being brown in color but can't honestly remember the odor.
    
    I too graduated(?) to the Comet stick models and it's funny you
    highlight the Fokker D-VII as one of the best of these stick 'n
    tissue kits I ever built was, indeed, the little Fokker biplane.
    
    I built most of the fighter types in the 50-cent and dollar-kit
    line from Comet but had a devil of a time covering them.  The tissue
    supplied in the kits was similar to the packing tissue you still
    see in shirt boxes and I never got the knack of attaining a wrinke-free
    covering job.  When I at last discovered silkspan and the technique
    of applying it damp and adhering it with clear dope, I finally got
    some attractive models out of the Comet kits.  My favorites were
    the 50-cent F-86D and the Corsair although I was also fond of the
    dollar-kit Avenger and Devastator models.
    
    I think you may be a little confused about the Speedee-Bilt kits;
    you say you didn't care for them but loved the Monogram models.
    The fact is that Speedee-Bilt's _were_ the Monogram kits.  The basic
    line which included the P-40, P-51, Hellcat, Corsair, F-84, F-86,
    Long Midget [Goodyear racer] and several civilian lightplane types
    sold for $.85 while the two deluxe kits, the F-9-F Panther and P-47
    Thunderbolt sold for a buck.  I had about the same success flying
    them as you did but it didn't matter, I loved 'em. 
    
    For flying, I liked the little all-balsa Top-Flite rubber models.
    About the same size as the Monograms, they were built up all from
    sheet balsa and had the color scheme and all insignia/markings
    pre-preinted on the wood...took about 2-hours to assemble them with
    cellulose {Testors/Ambroid] glue and did they fly!!  I fail to remember
    all the planes in this line but it included a Stincon Sentinel,
    Piper Super Cub and Aeronca Sedan.
    
    As you said, most of the Comet models are still available: they
    changed the packaging to full-color come-on depictions of the airplane
    and put 'em in clear shrink cellophane wrappings but they're
    essentially identical to the kits I (we) knew as kids...just so
    much balsa sheet with the parts printed on in purple ink - you still
    gotta' cut 'em out yer'self.  Matter of fact, I presently have 2
    of the [formerly] 50-cent Comet Sparky kits I intend to build one
    day.  Today they sell for about $2.50 and, as you said, the old
    dollar kits now sell for $5.00.  (That was last the time I
    checked/noticed...they may be even higher now.)     
    
    Ah, but I love all this reminiscing; the air in my cube is so thick
    with nostalgia right now you couldn't cut it with a #11 X-acto!!
    
    Adios amigo,	Al

By golly Al, now I know why they call you Big Al Casey; you have
the memory of an elephant!

I was confused about the Comet/Strombecker kits; the balsa ones
were Comet and the hardwood ones were Strombecker.  Thanks for
jogging my memory.  It was just as you said; trying to carve the
models with clumbsy fingers, crude tools, and unsophisticated
materials.  I used to put the tissue on my Comet stick models
with glue because nobody told me about dope.

You're right about the Speedee built -- that was indeed the
Monogram; the Comet equivalent, very inferior, was the
Struct-o-speed.   It never occurred to me to do the
Speedee-builts as static models.  I just kept trying to fly them.

The only dollar model I built avidly was the Taylorcraft.  That
big bugger is still available today and is occasionally converted
to electric.  I also did the A-26 Invader, converted to control
line with two .020 engines.  Did that in the Air Force in 1958
and had to abandon it when I moved on to another assignment.  I
still have the engines, and in fact, have one in a single channel
model that will fly this summer.  I also built the T-bolt, but
that was also abandoned -- as a matter of fact, it was the last
one I did before quitting the hobby in 1961.

You know, with your memory I bet you could recall a model that
I've been looking for over the years.  In about '50 or '51 I
built a T-28, from a Not-Comet kit.  For some reason, that model
turned out perfect.  I'd sure like to find the kit.  To this day
I have ambition of doing another T-28, just on the memory of that
model.  A friend of mine in Calif who collects old kits couldn't
place that one.

That Comet Sparky is still a hot item amongst the free-flighters.
The club I belonged to had a one-design contest with the model; a
frequent activity of the FF'ers.  Good you got two; the model is
well known for dissappearing OOS.  Never could figure out why FF
types are thrilled to loose a model!

Finally, you'd do well to re-calibrate your Comet model prices;
the 10-centers are upwards of $3, the .25 centers are $6 or $7,
the .50 centers are around $10, and the dollar models are closer
to $15.  I may even be a little low on this myself.

One model that Comet no longer makes is the .25 Globe Swift --
remember that pretty little one?  How about the helicopter, or
the Aeronical Floatplane?

There was an interesting piece in, I think Model Aviation,
recently about a solid scale master builder who passed on.  His
models were about the size of the ones we remember, but were of
Smithsonian quality.  

    John,
    
    OUCH!!  Those prices you quoted are even higher than I'd imagined
    they might be today.  But, it's been probably as many as 10-years
    since I paid any attention to the Comet prices and everything else
    has inflated outa' sight so I'm shocked but not particularly sur-
    prised.
    
    Amen on the Structo-Speed models from Comet...they never even
    approached the quality of the Monogram Speedee-Bilts.  When you
    think about it, their other kits were [are] no great shakes either:
    wood wheels [if any] attached to a balsa gear leg with a straight
    pin...gimme' a break, one landing and the gear was trash.  Remember
    the big, ugly balsa prop blank you were supposed to carve the prop
    from?  No kid I knew had the talent/patience to do that.  I always
    substituted a plastic prop I had laying around somewhere.  You even
    had to provide yer' own celluloid to make the windshield/canopy
    from the pattern printed on the plans.
    
    I too built a T-craft from the dollar-kit...that was a big hummer
    for it's genre.  If I recall correctly, it spanned about 45".  I
    remember distinctly it was bigger than my 42" Sterling Ringmaster.
    
    More deja-vu, I built a Comet P-38 from the dollar-kit for twin
    .020's on U-control.  I was in the process of entirely sheeting
    the bird with 1/32" sheet balsa [in place of the tissue covering]
    when I entered the Air Force in `58 and memory fails as to what
    ever happened to it...I know I never finished it and have no idea
    where the engines ever got to.
    
    Sheesh!  All this reminiscing has me almost fired up to go to the
    hobby emporium and pick out an old Comet kit to build just for the
    nostalgia.                   
    
    Wish I could help but I don't recall the T-28 you mentioned.  You
    say it was stick-and-tissue?  Could it have possibly been one of
    the Cleveland kits??  I tried one or two of these kits but they
    were much too sophisticated/complex for a kid of 11-12 and I wasn't
    very succesful with them.  As I mentioned before, a kid had a terrible
    time getting started in models back then as the skills/talent required
    by most kits were beyond their reach.  
    
    And, of course, building/covering/finishing materials were pretty
    primitive too.  With today's super-glues and iron on films, a kid
    would have a much easier time of it.  Too bad that in this day of
    instant gratification, kids just aren't interested in anything that
    doesn't build itself...you know; put glue in box, close cover, shake
    well, open box and admire completed model.  I know, I'm being
    fascetious but it bugs me that todays kids are missing that fantastic
    challenge and pride of accomplishment we enjoyed so much through
    modeling.  Oh well, it's their loss I guess......
    
    Sounds like you and I had quite a few parallels; the various modeling
    experiences, serving in Uncle's Airplane Farm about the same time,
    etc.  Hope we have the opportunity to meet and kick tires some day.
    
    Adios amigo,	Al
                          

    John,
    
    Just a thought but, if Bart Cusick [who started all this to begin
    with] checks back into the net and reads this topic, he may be able
    to shed some light on the T-28 mystery kit.
    
    Adios,	Al

For sure on that meeting to kick tires.  It'll be this year,
hopefully before summer.

I think the T-28 was a Cleveland kit.  I do remember it as being
a cut above the Comet kits that I built.

The Comet heliocopter introduced me to glue sniffing -- I
remember having the hallunications and not knowing what caused
them.  Heck, I didn't even know what a hallunication was.  After
all, every Comet kit was marked with their motto: Model 
Building Builds Model Boys! 

The Globe Swift was about '56 when Comet was feeling the pinch of
rising costs.  Their wood had been steadily going downhill for
several years, but the Swift kit was a total loss.  The wood was
tough and grainy; it broke when you tried to cut it.  Because the
Swift was built on a keel with round formers, the grain in the
formers was especially critical, and I had many splits while
trying to cut that one out.  If I could find another Swift kit,
I'd build it just to complete that model. 

There was a short period in the early '70s when I had nothing to
do for about 4 months.  I started building plastic models, with
the idea of getting them as nice as possible.  The kits really
look good when you spray them over the plastic, even with the
same color, and paint on the markings.  No static scaler needs
to hang their head in shame; it can be a very challenging art.
I'm sure that any of you closet modelers out there would be more
than welcome to add to this note.  

In the year before I left California I lived near a park with a
large clear area.  I took my rubber models there to fly almost
nightly,  frequently catching a little thermal that hung around
the bare dirt of a baseball diamond.   The kids were interested.
A couple of times I left because they were bothering me so
much.  But they couldn't believe I built the models (and one in
particular was basically a stick with balsa wings) from scratch
-- Geez mister, you built that *yourself*?   Mostly I'd try to be
nice, simply because of my duty as an AMA member.

Just from my own observation, I think its a case of lack of
exposure.  I mean, its like those little guys never thought of
building a model airplane to fly. 

    John,
    
    If the T-28 _was_ a Cleveland kit, there may be hope.  Most of the
    Cleveland designs are still available, not in kits of course, but
    the plans are advertised in most of the current model mags.  You
    just might find the plans and scratch build it.  That's not a whole
    lot different than building from the kits, as you probably recall...
    you had to cut out all yer' parts anyhow. 
    
    Say, yer' right; I'd forgotte about the motto on the Comet kit boxes.
    I always thought that said a helluva' lot, "Model building builds
    model boys."  Problem is, and forgive a trace of cynicism, I don't
    believe it's as simple as a problem of exposure regarding today's
    kids.  I've been involved in situations where kids _were_ exposed,
    almost begged to get into modeling.  As a favor to a friend, I
    volunteered to teach a model building class at a church several
    years ago.  "Great!" I thought; this'll give me the chance to introduce
    kids to the thrill I enjoyed from modeling as a kid and will `til
    I bite the big one.
    
    I gotta' tell you, it was one of the most frustrating experiences
    I ever had!  These kids were really hot-to-trot _UNTIL_ it dawned
    on them that they were going to have to _work_ [perish the notion]
    to produce a nice model.  As soon as they figgered' out that they
    couldn't have a museum quality model in just one afternoon, they
    dropped it like a hot rock!  Of some 15 kids in the class, only
    2 finished their models [and they had to be driven to it] while
    the majority dropped out after the 3rd or 4th class saying things
    like, "I don't like it...it's too hard."
    
    I was terribly disappointed/disillusioned about the whole thing
    and my friend [the owner of a hobby shop who'd donated all the kits
    and building materials] was out a big hunk of change for no real
    positive results.  I guess what really killed me about the whole
    thing was the statement a kid made when I demonstrated some tech-
    nique or other.  When I was a kid in a similar situation, I just
    couldn't wait to try it myself.  But, after concluding the demon-
    stration, this kid pipes up and says, "Do it again."  In other words,
    "Entertain me but don't expect _me_ to do anything to entertain
    myself."  Oh well............
    
    BTW, the John Wayne/Hellcat movie you remembered was "The Flying
    Leathernecks" co-starring Robert Ryan.  As are most of the Duke's
    movies, this is one of my favorites and I have it on video-tape.
    
    Hope ya' get a chance ta' fly this weekend..., adios amigo,	   Al

    al & john,
    i'm a novice on this fancy tv set, learning during coffee breaks.
     so it'll be short.  the t-28 may be guillows kit #901.  it's still
    available for about $4.oo.   you want any comet kits you'd better
    knock off early this afternoon and run to the local hobby shop.
     i've been told that comet went under three months ago.
    those kits similar to the speedeebilts you refer to are probably
    either top flite jig times or cleveland "q" quickie series.  both
    flew far better than the monograms, but didn't look quite as real...
    but then if we could have found real scale power, maybe they would
    have?  (now let's see... what's 1\32 of a 3400 hp pratt & whitney...
    chuckle).
    ref. the glue in strombeckers-- it was casine i believe...i've got
    a few envelopes of both glue and filler at home somewhere if you
    want one.  
    sure would like to have a copy of that article on the deceased solid
    builder you remember seeing.  i wonder if i knew him.  maybe i'm
    the last one left alive now?
    i'd appreciate any help you can give me on spreading the word on
    the collection i have....i'd guess 700 kits from the 20's--60's.
    i'd much rather trade than sell as once i sell one it's gone, the
    collection is smaller, and i'll never be able to afford to buy the
    same thing back if one still exists.  who's your collector friend
    in calif?  i hear they call that place the great grainola bar. ('cause
    when you take the wrapper off there's nothing left but fruit & nuts?)
    (choke, caugh, sorry fellers.)
    i hope to have a new inventory typed up soon.  i can send a copy
    to anyone who sends a 44c lsase.  if they have a similar list i'd
    appreciate a copy .
    the comet kits you refer to are probably from their ia
    series...strombecker had a similar series called spotter models.
    both were off shoots of the government program to make identification
    models via the high schools in 1942.
    gotta go.
    please keep the words coming.  we've got a tremendous amount to
    cover between sticking aurora plastic parts together and hocking
    one of the kids to get into 1:1 scale rc!
    black bart
    ps: i can be reached outside of work at (617)342-3644 at 34 maple
    st., fitchburg, ma 01420 or pob 365 groton, ma 01450.  
    al, where were you in the airfarce?  i put @ 9 years on active...flew
    in ec-121's...another 21 in the reserves as a moblization augmentee...
    remember when the service had craft shops full of model builders?
     gone with the smell of singed wood and butyrate and the sound of
    a 5c coke machine clunking i guess.
    youall should have been in andover mass last sunday for the annual
    airistocrats in door flying competition...what a fantastic trip
    back into the days of fun�
    end of message.    

    Re: .-1, Black Bart,
    
    Glad ta' see ya' back on the tube and appreciated the call on the
    DTN the other day.  Any chance you'll be getting yer' own VAX account
    so yer' appearances in RC_notes won't be as sporadic??
    
    Yeah, Top-Flite Jig-Time kits...those were the ones I remembered
    as going together in a coupla' hours [probably take 20-30 minutes
    today using CYA glues] and flying like homesick angels.  At one
    time or another, I built all of these fine flyers, most of `em more
    than once.  My favorites were the Super Cub, Stinson Sentinel and
    the Aeronca Sedan though they had a non-scale, high-wing job that 
    was probably the best flyer of `em all; the name escapes me...all
    I can remember is it was pre-printed in orange and purple and had
    a racing number [I guess] in place of the NC registration numbers.
    I keep thinking it was called something like the Jester but I don't
    think that's right.  Do you happen to remember this one? 
    
    I was in the U.S.A.F. (Uncle Sam's Airplane Farm) from September
    15, 1958 `til August 29, 1962.  I spent 4-weeks accelerated basic at
    Lackland AFB (San Antonio), Texas, then went to Lowry AFB (Denver),
    Colorado for training as a missile guidance system tech.  Unfortunately
    [for me], the school closed for upgrading shortly after I arrived
    and, at the convenience of the government,  I was shipped to Keesler
    AFB (Biloxi), Mississippi for ground radio tech school in Dec. `58.
    
    After 50 weeks training, I was assigned to the 686th AC&W Squadron
    at Walker AFB (Roswell), New Mexico in about Dec. `59.  In July
    '61 I was shipped overseas to Osan AFB (K55), Korea and assigned
    permanent TDY to the Army Signal Corps' radio/TV network, AFKN 
    (American Forces Korea Network).  I OJT'd  at the Seoul Army Com-
    pound headquarters of AFKN for about 6-weeks and spent the remainder
    of the tour in Taejon at the KMAG-G Army compound.  Following this
    assignment, I was returned to the states and discharged at Travis
    AFB (San Francisco), California, after which I returned to Phoenix
    and have been here ever since.
    
    Gotta' run fer' now...keep the nostalgia flowing.
    
    Adios amigo,	Al

>    i hope to have a new inventory typed up soon.  i can send a copy
>    to anyone who sends a 44c lsase.  if they have a similar list i'd

Why not just put your inventory in this note file.  I assume that you
have it in machine readable form.  Tho I do hope that you find the 
shift key soon :-)

>    youall should have been in andover mass last sunday for the annual
>    airistocrats in door flying competition...what a fantastic trip
>    back into the days of fun�

We would have all been there if you had let us know what to expect, where, 
when - etc.

I know most of this stuff is posted in the AMA rag - but if anybody plans
on attending some RC event - why not mention it here - perhaps we could
get a gaggle of RCers together.

I wonder if there are any Jeeps or BJs in that inventory?

              _!_      
Bye        ----O----   
Kay R. Fisher / \     

================================================================================

    Kay, 
    
    Before you drool all down the front of yer' ruffled shirt, the kits
    Bart's referring to are mostly vintage kits of small, non-R/C models,
    many/most of which are stick-and-tissue or even static (non-flying)
    models like the Comet, Cleveland and Monogram kits we've been
    reminiscing about in this topic.
    
    Per a phone conversation with Bart the other day, the fly-in he
    refers to was for these type models...no R/C.
    
    BTW, I wonder if Bart and Kevin might be related as neither seems
    to have a shift key on their keyboards.  Only kidding guys... >8^}
    
    Adios amigo,	Al

For Bart:  Good to hear from you -- Hope to see more of you in
this conference as time passes.   You mentioned the Guillows
T-28. No, this is not the one; I've fondled that kit over and
over thinking its the one -- even bought it once.  No, the
Guillows kit is of the struct-o-speed type; the one I remember
was pure stick and former construction.  Wingspan around 20
inches I think.

I have the Dave Platt RC model drawings all blown up to 24"
wingspan ready to plot into a stick and former model.  Someday
soon.   Well, someday.

The similar kits to the Monogram that I remember were the Comet 
Struct-o-speed; I don't remember the others you mentioned.

On that casein glue; I'm afraid that if I got ahold of some my
boss would find me under my desk sucking my thumb...And I
remember the filler, too.

I'll try to dig up that article on the solid scaler.  Not too
many of you.  I generally cut up my magazines for a clipping file
every few months, but I have a large pile now going back to last
Fall, so maybe its there. 

As for your California joke; I'll never forget the time I first
heard that one.  Laughed so hard I kicked the slats clean out of
my cradle!

My kit collector friend bounces between model airplanes, real
airplanes, and racing cars.  He was last seen restoring a Lotus
23.  Anyway, he is due to send me a message, and I'll mention
you.  Speaking of which, I'd like to see the list of your
collection, just to drool over; I'm not interested in collecting
kits (I say now).

Funny this topic came up; I've been toying with doing something
solid scale for several months now...

Al, did we talk about this on the landline?  We joined the Air
Farce the nearly the same day (I think I entered the 12th) and
were discharged within a week of each other -- I think the date I
hit the Travis AFB gate (I was stationed in the F102 outfit
there) with tires squealing was Aug. 26.  I remember when JFK did
the Bay of Pigs I swore mightly at him for risking my recall. The
only way they could've got me back was with a .45 hole in my
back. 

Also, coincidence, I didn't go to Lowery for missle training for
the same reason.  Instead I did the full 16 (or was it 18) week
basic (with the AP's) and went to dear old Keesler, also around
Dec '58.  I was in the navigational radar squadron.  I stayed at
Travis my whole hitch. 

Golldurn.

    John,
    
    Uncanny!  You enlisted on 12 September, `58 and I went in on the
    15th; you were discharged on 26 August, `62 while I got out on the
    29th.  Weird that they maintained that 3-day separation at both
    ends of our enlistments.  Did you do yer' basic training as Lackland
    AFB?  If so, we were there at the same time and, doubtless, we were
    at Keeslaer at the same time as well...funny our paths never crossed.
    Did you mean you were _prevented_ from attending tech-school at
    Lowry AFB due to the temporary school shutdown?  What did you do
    at Keesler?
    
    Back on subject, in his call to me the other day, Bart reminded
    me of the Monogram [did he call `em] Super-Scale solid model kits.
    I'd totally forgotten them and still can barely recall them...not
    sure if I ever built one.  But, the subject reminded me of the two
    long-extinct solid-balsa car kits Monogram used to have: one [my
    favorite] was a midget racer while the other was sort of an Indy-car.
    
    Both came with a solid balsa body, nicely machined to near final
    shape.  You added the axles and [in the case of the midget] bent
    up the radius rods and drag-link from music wire using patterns
    on the plans; these were soldered to the axles after painting of
    the body.  Both cars were intended for CO2 power, having a hole
    milled into the bodies' rear ends to accept the capsule.  The car
    could be rigged to follow a string staked to the ground or to run
    in circles via a tether when the CO2 capsule was punctured.  I built
    several of the midgets and at least one of the Indy-cars as a kid
    and enjoyed them as a change of pace from airplanes.
    
    To Bart:  I, too, would like a list of yer' kits when you get it
    completed.  If you wanted to save us both the postage, you could
    send `em via interplant mail.  And, i'm still interested in the
    Monogram B-17 when you've thought over the tariff...lemme' know.
    
    Adios amigos,	Al                                          

I checked my discharge papers yesterday, and it showed that I
entered on Sept 16.  The copy was very faded and I wasn't able to
read the discharge date.  When I was doing the job selection
thing at Lackland, I was first offered missle school at Lowry,
then when the Sergeant looked closely at the schedule he found
that the school was closed.  So I went to Keesler to the
airborne navigational radar school.  Like yourself, I arrived in
December.  I remember dragging my duffle bag, which was nearly as
big as me, across the apron at Golfport airport just after dawn
on a cold morning.  Biloxi, Mississippi was another world in those
years before civil rights.

The F-102 of course didn't carry any navigational radar, the
front of the plane from the cockpit to the nose cone was all fire
control radar -- using miniature and subminature tubes, there was
very little solid state in 1957 when the planes were built.
Anyway, I wound up working on stuff that I didn't have any
schooling on -- the govt could've sent me directly there for ojt. 

Sometime over a beer I'll tell you about my Article 15. 

After I left the unit the squadron was broken up (couldn't get
along without me) and scattered around California.  A slight
historical note was that several of the planes were shipped to
Vietnam.  Some bright fellow speculated that if the 102s were
flown low over the jungle with ABs lit the simple, uneducated
pesants in the enemy's army would run home in fright. No kidding,
I forget what the operation was called, but it didn't work of
course, and those were the only 102s that ever saw combat.  I saw
some of the planes about 10 years later when I went down to
Riverside for a race.  They were lined up on the flight line of a
Guard unit. 

Well, back to static.  I remember the Monogram cars.  I think
there was a little boat in that series,too.  I built both, but
never fired one off because we couldn't figure out how to get the
co2 cartridge punctured without causing damage to ourselves or the
model.  That model did inspire a little .049 propellor driven car
that gave me some enjoyment, though. 

This note may've given me the motivation to do something in
static scale.  Since coming here and finding that flying rubber
models outside was very difficult in the wind, and indoor flying
in the area is a subject I cannot even discuss rationally, I've
been putting every bit of energy into RC.

    John,
    
    Article-15, eh??  Tsk, tsk...I dunno' if I should associate with
    you anymore.  >8^}  I got threatened with one once; completely innocent
    mistake...I overstayed my leave by 1-day by failing to consider
    that if you take a 30-day leave from a given day of one month to the
    same day of the next and the first month has 31 days, yer' talking about
    an absence of 31, not 30, days.  Actually, the Article-15 might've
    been preferrable as I had to repaint several hundred yards of white
    picket fence surrounding our radio shack to appease my NCOIC.  Small 
    wonder I'd had all I ever wanted of the military in just one tour. 
    
    For firing the CO2 capsules there was a neat little gadget consisting
    of a needle-sharp stylus mounted to the end of a spring-loaded plunger
    running within a tubular housing.  To use, you merely slipped the
    business end of the housing over the end of the CO2 capsule, pulled
    out on the plunger and released; the stylus was driven into the
    end of the capsule making a small neat puncture, gas escaped rapidly
    and the car sped down the course.  
    
    Actually, I bet you saw one of these and never realized it.  Remember 
    the "Green Monster" at Lackland AFB?  As we Basic Airmen were
    processed  [herded] through this complex, we came to the part where 
    they took blood tests and administered innoculations.  Well, the
    plunger  gadget they used to puncture yer' fingertip for the blood
    test was none other than the identical device we'd used for years to 
    fire our CO2 powered models.  
    
    More to the subject at hand, while at Keesler I managed to build
    a number of plastic models, my favorite of which was a highly detailed
    T-33 by Hawk [I think].  This was appropriate as T-33's and Albatrosses
    operated outa' Keesler day and night, remember?  Anyhoo, the T-bird
    had lotsa' neat details like opening canopy, working access hatches
    on the nose, the tail section of the airplane even came off and
    sat on a maintenance dolly, revealing the jet engine.  The kit took
    several weeks to complete and I'll never forget it as I was working
    on it in my barracks in the Triangle Area one cold, drizzly,
    thoroughly depressing day in February, 1959 when the radio announced
    the deaths, in a private plane crash, of Buddy Holly, Richie Valens
    and J.C. (The Big Bopper) Richardson.  Took me weeks to get over
    that as I worshipped Buddy Holly!  To this day I can't recall what
    ever happened to that model but I sure remember it!
               
    Another Keesler-built favorite was a neat F-9-F5 [straight-wing]
    Grumman Panther [like they used in "The Bridgs at Toko-Ri."  I can't
    remember who kitted that one but it was a beauty.  Plastics were
    about all I had time/room to build `til arriving at my first duty
    assignment at Walker AFB, New Mexico.  Also built a gob of AMT car
    kits, several of which I still have after all this time.
    
    Adios amigo,	Al

    John / Al,
    RE:  Your 102's....Never got to fly in one.  The closest I ever
    came was while stationed at Havre AFS, MT in '68.  I drove the 100-150
    miles south to Gore Field in Great Falls to fly back seat only to
    have it abort....there weren't many two seaters.  I had a similar
    experience with the F-89 at Tyndall AFB, FL, but managed to get
    a few minutes in the log book anyhow.
    Thank God for overseas F-102's!  In the early 70's, while offf (get
    wired just recalling it!) the coast of Korea in an EC-121 we had
    two high speed "unknowns" run on us out of the north... If it wasn't
    for two wayward national guard Duces, I'd be long digested fish
    food today. ...  I never did find out what the guard was doing there
    .
    RE: Monogram car & boat kits... not only remember them, but have
    a couple...but no C02 bottles or the little guns mentioned.  (Got
    any idea where I might find one?)  I've done a little research on
    the old Monogram woodies and will list what I found later.
    Keep the woodie nostalgia flowing.  This is more fun than I've had
    in a long time.
    RE: the lack of a shift key.  My instructor said "Don't use Caps,
    In the notes their just for shouting.  Being a new guy I took it
    literally...Just the way a computer does it.  Sorry.
    Gotta go burn lead.  
    Black Bart. 

Al: Interesting about using CO2 to fire those shots in the Green
Monster.  The only thing I remember about that part of the day
was that the medics shot me using two needles at once, on either
side.  Yuk.  The first time I had one of those air shots was at
my squadron when we got a mass flu innoculation (which promptly
brought on the flu).

Your rememberance about plastics took me to my old pictures.
There I was sitting in the barracls (I was in the old WWII
open-bay barracks there) doing some studying.  Must've been in
the sets phase because I had one of the 11 x 17 schematic books
open.  On the table was a plastic A-26 and a transistor radio.
That was the radio I heard about the Buddy Holly crash on --
though I confess I mourned Richie and the Bopper more.  That
radio kept my sanity down there -- late at night I'd take it
under my blankets and listen to stations way out in the civilized
world of the east.

The A-26 was what got me into the Comet A-26 kit.  The squadron
had a small group who flew control line, and that got me going on
the model.  I planked it with 1/32 on the fuse and beefed up the
wings to take the .020s.  The model was about ready for covering
when I graduated, and I'd intended to take it with me to my next
station.

My parents came cross country to see me graduate -- I finished
very badly in High School, and frankly, was much more proud of
finishing tech school anyway.  Just after the ceremony I went
back to my barracks to pack, and my parents went out for a bite.
Well, to make a short story long, they got rear-ended by a
travelling salesman with beer on his breath.  He slipped the cops
a few bucks, the car was a total, and my mom went to the
hospital.   In a couple of days we were faced with the prospect
of getting home.  Of course, that put the finish on the A-26
because it was too delicate to get across country on the train. 

That was quite a ride by the way.  The Louisville & Nashville
across to New Orleans (Nawlens), the Santa Fe across Texas,
through Phoenix into southern California, and I think, the
Southern Pacific Lark up to the Bay area.

A couple of years later I repeated the ride, this time on the
Santa Fe to Denver and on the Shasta Daylight to Oakland, and
'Frisco.  On that ride I remember gazing out over the Colorado
plains where I now live, and wondering what the heck such
worthless looking land could be used for. 

But I digress.  Good to hear from you Bart.  Yeah the two seater
102, the TF-102 was a side-by-side.  Sounds like you were a
pilot? I didn't know that the 102 was used overseas except for
the Vietnam thing I mentioned.  They carried a lot of firepower
in the missle bays.

Last night, while waiting for the Skylark plans to arrive
(Goldberg hadn't shipped them as of Monday), I pulled out a '70s
vintage Guillows Cessna 150 kit that I bought at the flea market.
I'll put it together in spare moments over the next few months.
The wood is pretty good, except that the cutter crushed the very
nice lightweight balsa parts.  I've had to repair a few of the
parts and am considering using the patterns on the plan to just
cut out the parts and forget the ones in the kit.  Nice looking
model, though. 

    John...I picked up one of those Comet B-26 S&T kits this Wed believe
    it or not.  An ex B-26 jock named Bill Mainord hired me to build
    one for him around '72 when I was stationed at a small garden spot
    called Murphy Dome on top of a small mountain outside of Fairbanks
    (again, believe it or not.)
    No, I wasn't one who wore pilot's wings in the air farce...But I
    sure was a frustrated pilot. For the first six years I was what
    was called an intercept director or controller using old fashoned
    manual systems.  Later in that period "airborne" was added to the
    title 'cause I did the same job from the back end of an EC-121.
     It got a little more complicated than that during Vietnam though.
    When it was over they sent the airplane to the USAF Museum at Wright
    Patterson.  They couldn't find a museum for me, so they sent me
    to AK.  I stayed on active duty as an Information/Public Affairs
    type until switching to the reserves in '75.  I'm still in.  But
    due to recent cut backs, will probably retire this year.
    RE: collecting.... I got into it after leaving active duty when
    I too went looking for a Speedee-bilt kit.  There are a lot of plastic
    kit collectors.  But "woodie" collectors are hard to find.  
    
    Has anyone out there seen any government ID models lately?
    Identification models came in 1/432, 1/144 and 1/72 scale.  They
    were made from hard rubber (like bowling balls),metal, wood and
    even plaster.  They were my first memorable toys...brought back
    from WW-II by my army engineer father.  I sepend a lot of spare
    time searching for them.
    
    I wonder if anyone overseas is reading this?  I hear that there
    are some super "card" models in europe and both solid and stick
    & tissue kits in the orient.
    
    RE: my kit list.... It's too long for me to type in, about eight
    pages.  I'd go broke sending them out all over the world.  So when
    I decide to sell off a few and advertise, I weed out thos that just
    like to collect lists by asking someone to send either their list
    or $1.00, and a 44c LSASE for mine.  I usually have them typed by
    someone with more aptitude in that direction and printed at the
    local quick copy place.  They end up costing about $1.44 each. 
    So as you can see, it's a work of insanity rather than a good business
    proposition.... But I do meet a lot of other "woodie" nuts in the
    process.
    
    RE: Building something stattic: .... If you really want to be a
    purist, get me to send you a copy of one of the WW-II identification
    model plans and start from scratch.... It helps when you'll know
    that you are probably the only one on the planet doing something....
    It also helps if you put a little Glenn Miller on the stereo.  (But
    don't even think of hacking at one with your old Boy Scout knife
    or father's used razor blade.)
    
    RE:  Me getting my own account..... The chance is slim right now
    due to my employment status.  I'm a consultant/jobber/non-captive/white
    collar slave type.... Started with mother DEC back in '83.  Every
    time I find a home, either funds become scarce or another "freeze"
    goes into effect.  I've gotten used to it.   The kids and my ex
    wife's lawyer's Mercedes dealer eat.  But it's getting a little
    old.  There is a lot of time between contracts to build models though.
    If you've got any suggestions, they're welcomed.
    
    Still have the Monogram data to enter, but gotta punch out for now.
    
    What can we do to recruit a few more pre-RC enthusiasts into this
    conversation?
    
    Black Bart (Ramrod - 16, over & out).

    Well gang, here's what I dug up on the history of Monogram wood
    kits and Speedee Bilts:
    
    My earliest Speedee Bilt has a 1946 copyright on the plan.  Kits
    made in the mid to late 1940's included the control line kits #C-4,
    Aeronca Sedan, 35" wing span, $4.95.  And #C-3, Piper Cub Special,
    for .19 to .49 cu. in. engines.  I can't find out what other "C"
    series kits there were.  Can anyone help?
    
    All of the early Speedee Bilt (unsure of spelling at this time)
    sold for 85 and included numbers 1 thru 15.  Later, I'd guess 1949
    or later, they came out with 14 thru 17 at $1.00 ea.  They were all
    "G" series kits.
    
    G-1= Piper Cub,2= Aeronca),G-3= monocoupe, G-4= Ercoupe,
    G-5= Kaydet (Boeing-Stearman PT-17), G-6= Long Midget, G-7=Cessna
    float plane, 8= SPAD, 9= F-51 Mustang, 10= F-84 Thunderjet, 11=
    Navion, 12= F6F Hellcat, 13= F-86 Sabre jet, 14= F4U-5 Corsair,
    15= P-40 Warhawk, 16= F9F Panther jet, and G-17= P/F-47 Thunderbolt.
    
    The bombers were Super Speedee Bilts, all of the "H" series:  H-1
    was the B-25 Mitchell, $3.50.  H-2 the A\B-26 Invader for $3.50.
     H-3 was the B-17 Flying Fortress for $4.95.  And last in the series
    was the B-24 Liberator for $4.95.
    
    They also had what they called the Build-n-fly series.  They were
    sort of like a delux Speedee Bilt with colored and printed paper
    laminated to the balsa parts.  I believe that there were only 3
    in this "F" series, all for $1.49 ea., #F1=Mr. Mulligan, #F2=L-20
    Beaver, and #F3= Cosmic Wind racer.
    
    Ships were all "B" series kits, all had 16"+- hulls and sold for
    $1.25:  B1= LST 608, B2= destroyer USS Hobby, B3= Cruiser USS Chicago,
    B4= battleship USS Missouri, B5= aircraft carrier USS Shangri-la,
    and then they slipped in a speed boat called the Aaqua Jet that
    I believe used CO2 for power.
    
    The only other woodies I could find anything on were the four "R"
    series CO2 kits:  R1= Hot Shot for $.70, R2= Terra Jet for $1.00,
     R3= Mono Jet for $.85, and R4= Mid-jet for $.85.
                                                                    
    Speedee Bilt kits were released again in the 70's, but they were
    quite different in that they were made of Styrofoam...I don't know
    how many were in the series, but two were the ME 109 and Spitfire
    for sure. (Can anyone add to this?)  They weren't on the hobby shop
    shelves for long.  They must have been way ahead of their time as
    MRC markets very similar kits now, but for a much higher price and
    more refined in flying...some with gears between prop and rubber.
    
    That's the best I could do for now.  
    
    Have fun!
    
    Black Bart, out (And for all you SEA Vets: That's a "104",
    over.....KYHOOYA!.....KMAFJYOY....FUBAR and FIGMO!
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
     
    13= F-86 Sabre jet, 14= F4U-5 Corsair,                                               
    

That's a pretty good bit of research Bart.  I know that most
hobbies have a newsletter underground; is that where you got your
information?

I was especially interested to know that the "dollar" Speede-bilt
kits that I knew as a kid were originally "85-centers".
Inflation in my own time!

Talking about that postwar era reminds me of the first model
airplane I ever saw.  It was probably about '46 or '47, and we
were living in Hawaii.  An uncle and I went downtown to buy a
model airplane project "for us to build together".  I have a
picture of the two of us snapped by a street vendor -- My uncle
is carrying the box, rather large for a rubber model; about 3 ft x
6" x 3".  I remember that it was stick and tissue.  Anyway, my
involvement in that project lasted about an hour, he took it home
and finished it.  I think it was a Spitfire or something similar.

I commented earlier that I was working on a Guillows Cessna 150.
When I started punching out the parts I was very dissappointed to
find that the wood was badly crushed by the stamping die.  Looks
like I'll have to make most of the parts from scratch, a project
I don't wish to take on just now.  So back into the box it went.
Lucky the plan has patterns for all the damaged parts.

    John,
    
    You misunderstood about the "Green Monster" thing; I too received
    shots in each arm by medico's using the standard hypodermic syringes
    ...didn't see the CO2 "gun" 'til much later - I believe it may've
    been at Keesler AFB during a flu outbreak too.  What I was referring
    to was when they took blood for their blood workups; instead of
    taking blood from the arm or using the ol' broken glass or scalpel
    blade for the purpose, they used one of the CO2 cartridge puncturing
    devices exactly like we'd used to fire the capsules in the Monogram
    CO2 powered cars.  Just like when we fire the capsules, the medic
    placed the business end of the device against yer' fingertip, pulled
    the plunger back and released which drove the stylus into yer' finger
    (ouch!).
    
    Bart,
    
    Thanx fer' the very comprehensive rundown on the Monogram line of
    models.  I'd forgotten that there were more than two cars in the
    xxxxx-Jet series but you jogged the ol' memory.  I recall clearly
    having at least the Terra-Jet and the Mid-Jet as well as whichever
    one looked a little like an Indy Car.
    
    What would it take to get inputs from more noters?  More noters
    from our age group who were modelers as kids, I guess.  I know ol'
    Don Huff out in California qualifies but his contributions to the
    net are kinda' spotty due to work pressures.  My guess is that the
    four of us (you, John, Don and myself) may be close to all there
    are in the RC_notesfile, most of the noters seeming to be brand
    new to modeling, regardless of age.  We'll see, others may join
    us in this nostalgic discussion (if they con't have a "thing" about
    revealing their age) but I'm enjoying the heck out of it with just
    the three of us so far.
    
    I'll be happy to send you the $1.40 when you have yer' listing ready
    to go.  Just gimme' the go-ahead and, if you would, highlight which
    of the Monogram bombers you have and would be willing to peddle...
    I have nothing to trade, unfortunately, in the vintage kits area
    yer' interested in.   
    
    Gotta' run, adios amigos,	Al

    Al,
    I am afraid that I will have to also plead guilty of being a modeler
    during that era, but I unfortunately do not remember the detail
    that you other guys do.  I have built a good many of the Comet line
    of Piper Cubs, and that type of plane.  However, I could never get
    the kind of flights that I witnessed a couple of weeks ago at the
    indoor meet in Andover, Mass.  It was nostalgia at its finest.
    
    Ken

Al, John, Don, Ken, etc.
    The name of the small outfit in Mich. that sells not only the '40's
    Wheaties models, but very nice Christmas cards made from their P-40
    kit, and many other card models of everything from castles to vehicles
    is: Tru-Flite Models, P.O.Box 62, Roseville, MI 48066.  I understand
    that the fellow who runs the company, named Bob Fudold, is a school
    teacher... The kits come via some school for the handicapped.  I
    bought some of the Christmas cards and sent them out last year.
    All those who got them seemed very pleased.  I was giving thought
    to selling them myself this year, but havn't had the time or customer
    base to justify a large order.  The margin of profit is very narrow.
    
    RE:  ID models:  After you last note I no longer sit under the 28"
    PBM model.  I can now be found up in Environmental Engineering under
    an authentic 1943 I.D. model of the PBY Catalina!
    
    RE: Club Letter & Speedee-bilt research:  Nope, the research is
    first hand.  There is a publication out of Edmond, OK published
    by John Burns called KCC (for Kit Collectors Clearinghouse) that
    runs articles on such nostalgia, but the articles are coming from
    me and a couple of other woodie nuts.... I actually did the probe
    into Monogram kits in response to a request from one of the other
    writers.  I'd recommend the Pub. to anyone with any interest at
    all as it costs only @$15. per year and subscribers can advertis
    free.
    
    RE:  Biloxi/Keesler days:  I walked off a lot of "awchit" tours
    around the quadrangle during the summer of '64-'65.  God did that
    flight line get hot under combat boots.  I went there as a reserve
    airman basic and came out an acting Staff Sgt. in a program that
    was supposed to resurrect the old Aviation Cadets... The program
    want belly up and I ended up getting a commission via Holy Cross
    and the ROTC....Long, long ago.
    
    RE: The old kits-- This has got me out shovelling snow away6 from
    the shed and crawling through stacks of boxes.... I've even got
    one kit out there manufactured by the Wright Brothers no less
    (confirmed by the curator of the NASM!)
    
    RE:  My list-- Don't send $1.40.... Only your list or one dollar,
    and a two stamp self addressed legal\business size envelope... The
    balance I absorb.
    
      Gotta punch out... Let's keep this old kit\model chatter going.
    
    Black Bart
      

    Bart,
    
    Tell me more about the Christmas cards with the old Wheaties card
    models: is the model separate/buildable/flyable and what is the
    cost per card? 
    
    My earliest recollection of model airplanes is of my dad cutting
    these models from the back of Wheaties cereal boxes, assembling
    them and hanging them from the kitchen ceiling.  It was only recently
    that I discovered these models were flyable.  I've heard them referred
    to as "Jack Armstrong Penny-Gliders" which alluded to the penny
    that was assembled into the nose(s) for noseweight(s).  One of my
    R/C buddies had an original P-40 which he gave me but I've left
    it in sheet-form to date.  As I understand from this friend, the
    series of WW-II penny-gliders was re-released sometime in the 60's
    as a "send in a box-top and $.25" offer and the one he gave me is
    of this vintage, not from the cereal box of the 40's. 
    
    I might be interested in sending out some of these Christmas cards
    this year if the cost is not prohibitive.
    
    	OO	 Adios,      Al
	( >o
    Z__(O_\_	(The Desert Rat)             

    AL,
    
    All 14 of the original Jack Armstrong (The All American Boy) models
    have been reproduced.  Tru-Flite's ad says that they are exact
    reprints.  The are advertised at $2.50 ea. or @$2.50 ea. for orders
    of 10 or more... Wheaties box tops are no longer required.  The
    P-40 has two versions.  The original is blue (circa 1944), the latest,
    (circa 1966) is in olive.  I don't have the literature on the Christmas
    cards handy, but as I recall they were @ $25.00 for two dozen. All
    were with the modern P-40.  In fact this may be a third version
    of the P-40.
    Gotta split for now,
    
    Black Bart
    

    Bart,
    
    Thanx fer' the info.  While Christmas is a long way off (thank God),
    I might be interested in sending some of these cards around.  Please
    provide more detail when you can.......gracias.    

      :
      | |      00	 Adios,      Al
    |_|_|      ( >o
      |    Z__(O_\_	(The Desert Rat)           
    

    Bart,
    
    Until you published yer' research on the old Monogram kits, I'd
    forgotten about the Speedee-Bilt kit of the SPAD.  Thinking about
    the SPAD derdged up the nostalgic recollection that a Speedee-Bilt
    SPAD won my very first modeling trophy.
    
    Back in the mid-50's, Monogram held a national building contest for
    their Speedee-Bilt kits.  Participating hobby shops ran their own
    individual contests with trophies supplied by Monogram.  The hobby
    shop I haunted at the time was 2 short blocks from my grade school
    and, asit was participating in the promotion, I decided to enter.
    
    I don't recall the exact circumstances, but I'd been given [or somehow
    came by] 2 partial SPAD kits, from which I built a single airplane
    and entered it in the contest.  At age 13 or so, my building skills
    were still a long way from being great but I recall that the SPAD
    came out quite nice.  Because it was a WW-I bird, the tissue covered
    turtle decking, bottom and wing undersides seemed more appropriate
    and, since the model was not required to fly, I went the whole 9-yards
    with rigging and detailing [at least to the extent to which I was
    capable.       
    
    The contest was supposed to be for Monogram kits only, but the shop
    where I entered allowed other kits (to drum up interest).  All the
    models entered were displayed at the shop for a month or so, then
    judged and I got second place with the SPAD.  First was won by a
    really trick all-sheeted Corsair with bombs, rockets and such hung
    from it...a terrific model but from a Comet kit so I took pleasure
    from the knowledge that, I'd been first among the Monogram kits
    entered.  I still have that trophy, my very first ever, displayed
    in my workshop.  Wish I still had the SPAD but I have no recall
    whatsoever what ever happened to it.

      :
      | |      00	 Adios,      Al
    |_|_|      ( >o
      |    Z__(O_\_	(The Desert Rat)

    Last week I spent the equivalent of over 3 full days mucking out
    and reorganizing my workshop...Gawd! what a mess!  I moved [at her
    request] mi esposa's sewing machine, tables, shelves, cabinets,
    etc. into a spare bedroom (we've only been threatening to do this
    for over 2-years since my daughter moved out), thereby increasing
    the shop floorspace by nearly a third.
    
    In the process of muckin'and cleanin', I came to dusting trophies
    and the nostalgia came gushing back as I cleaned up the old 2nd
    place trophy from the Monogram model building contest of the mid-50's.
    (see .30)  Just a few ounces of plastic base and electrplated pot-metal
    but, being my first ever, that junky lil' trophy still means an
    awful lot to me.
    
    Succumbing to the nostalgia, I dragged out a Jack Armstrong penny
    glider which I'd rediscovered in the cleanup campaign and sat down
    to put it together.  These planes were the ones Wheaties cereal
    printed on the backs of their cereal boxes and provided by the thousands
    to hospitalized GI's during WW-II...the self same ones my dad had
    assembled and hung from the kitchen ceiling to the delight of this
    3-4 year old Desert Rat.
    
    As I cut out the model (a P-40) and began folding/gluing it together,
    I thought that my dad must've had more patience/dexterity than I'd
    given him credit for as they're not as easy to do _right_ as they
    at first appear.  They must've been a little beyond the skills of
    the sub-teen kids of the day, particularly considering the poor
    glues we were forced to use then.  At any rate, I cut, folded and 
    fitted carefully, using thick Zap to glue _only_ after everything fit
    perfectly, and an hour or so later, Voila! I had a real blast from
    the past in my hot lil' hand!  Actually, the one I built was vintage
    1966 when Wheaties re-released the series of gliders for a time
    but it instantly recalled the much earlier days, circa 1944, when
    I stared wondrously up at these fascinating objects hanging from the
    ceiling.  No doubt at all that these were the seeds, unknowingly sowed
    by my dad, that grew into a life-long love for airplanes, model
    and otherwise.  The proud little glider is now displayed on the
    wall of my shop as a symbol of the start of it all for me.
    
    Received Bart Cusick's catalog for antique balsa kits from the 30's
    on in the morning goat-mail.  I haven't had time to thoroughly digest
    the contents yet but I'm impressed, to say the least.  Bart's listing
    contains kits I haven't heard of/seen since I was a kid and many
    I'd _never_ heard of/seen before.  I immediately turned to the listing
    for Monogram, looking for the bomber kits I was so fond of as a
    teen-ager and, sure enough, he lists several, including my favorite,
    the B-17.  Gonna' make Bart an offer for one of those...just gotta'
    have another one to display in the same configuration as the one
    that won so much hardware for me at the Arizona State Fair in the
    mid-late 50's.  It'll doubtless cost a small fortune compared
    to the original kit price but it'll be worth it, to me at least.
       

      |                                                                 
      | |      00	 Adios,      Al
    |_|_|      ( >o
      |    Z__(O_\_	(The Desert Rat)

When I got Bart's flyer I gave him a buzz on the land line.  He
asked me to mention on the net that the list was available.  You
can reach him at DTN 261-2666 until 13 May.

Yes, that's quite a fine collection of kits, some dating into the
30s and 40s.  I looked at the Strombecker kits, and of course the
Monograms.  Very nice.

>    Succumbing to the nostalgia, I dragged out a Jack Armstrong penny
>    glider which I'd rediscovered in the cleanup campaign and sat down
>    to put it together.  These planes were the ones Wheaties cereal
...
>    glues we were forced to use then.  At any rate, I cut, folded and 
>    fitted carefully, using thick Zap to glue _only_ after everything fit
>    perfectly, and an hour or so later, Voila! I had a real blast from
...
>    and otherwise.  The proud little glider is now displayed on the
>    wall of my shop as a symbol of the start of it all for me.

Well - how about a flight report!
Boy - you guys and your hanger queens :-)

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
================================================================================

    Re: .-1, Kay,
    
    Not wanting to mess this rarity up, I'd be hesitant to fly it except
    over tall, soft grass which, as you may appreciate from your recent
    visit, is also something of a rarity, hereabouts. ;B^D  
    
    Howsomever, a little over a year ago, despite my protests, another
    friend, Chuck Collier of Byron Staggerwing fame, who had a P-39 glider
    of the same genre and vintage, insisted upon flying it after I
    assembled it for him.  It flew just great for what it was but, due
    to the card-paper construction, wasn't too durable when flown over
    dirt/decomposed granite gravel.  Consequently, the little classic
    got torn up pretty good and has since disappeared, trashed no doubt...
    too bad!    

      |
      | |      00	 Adios,      Al
    |_|_|      ( >o
      |    Z__(O_\_	(The Desert Rat)

    Al, there is a lot of tall soft grass in this part of the world..
    
    md

    Re: .-1, Marc,
    
    Yeah, I know.  BUT, that necessitates my second favorite thing in
    the world: lawn mowing.  BTW, my _first_ favorite thing is being
    stuck in the eye with a dull lead-pencil!  ;B^o    

      |
      | |      00	 Adios,      Al
    |_|_|      ( >o
      |    Z__(O_\_	(The Desert Rat)

    I'm pleased/tickled/thrilled/excited to be able to announce that
    I've strruck a deal with Bart Cusick wherein I'll shortly be the
    proud owner of a 30-year old Monogram Speedee-Bilt B-17 bomber kit,
    the same one that won me a 1st place and special merit award at
    the Arizona State Fair circa 1957.  I won't reveal what I paid for
    it, out of courtesy to Bart, but suffice to say the kit-cost has
    inflated considerably over the 3-decades since these classic kits
    became extinct.  Bart made me a very fair deal, considering the
    rarity and collector value of the kit and I'm quite pleased.
    
    I told Bart that every time I see/hear the opening scene/music for
    Victory at Sea (currently being run on the A&E cable channel), I
    get a horrendous rush of nostalgia as I'm vividly reminded of building
    these bomber kits (there were 4) in front of the TV while watching
    this classic program as a teenager.
    
    To say I'm anxious/excited to get started building this classic
    for permanent display in the workshop would be a gross understatement!
    Bart tells me mine will be one of only three such [built] models known
    to exist anywhere.  Who knows, if I get as big a bang out of building
    the B-17 as I expect, I may dicker with Bart for other of the remaining
    three bomber models, i.e the B-24, B-25 & B-26.
    
    I'm not sure yet how I'll finish it; all we had in the old days
    was sanding sealer ( a devilishly ineffective unction), auto primer,
    talc-and-dope, etc. all wilt their own negative side-effects.  Who
    knows, as this is a static-display model and weight is not a factor,
    I just might use 0.6-oz glass cloth and resin, K&B primer and
    acrylic lacquer finish just like I use on the flying models.  This
    will certainly provide the kind of durable, long-lasting finish
    demanded by such a model...we shall see when I get to that stage.

      |
      | |      00	 Adios,      Al
    |_|_|      ( >o
      |    Z__(O_\_	(The Desert Rat)

        Re:< Note 487.37 by PNO::CASEYA "THE DESERT RAT (I-RC-AV8)" >

        Al,
        
                At the  Hanscom  Field  open  house  last  Sunday the New
        England  Escadrille  gave    tours  through  and  gave  a  flight
        demonstration of a B17.    I just fell in love with that old bird
        and wonder whether you have  heard  of  any  kits  or plans for a
        scale model.  It seems the largest managable scale would be 1/10,
        which would give a 10' wing span.
        
                      _ 
                     / |
        |  _====____/==|
        |-/____________|
        |    |        o \
             O           \ 
                          O
         Hang in there! o_|_
                          |
             Anker      \_|_/

    Anker,
    
    Royal kits a small B-17 (approx 74" span) for 4-.20's (I think).
    We saw one at Colorado Springs on out recent trip up there.  It
    flew well if, perhaps, a little too fast though the pilot could've
    throttle back a bit more for realism.
    
    Westcraft (if they're still in business) has one at about 9-10' span
    for 4-.60's which presents well and flies very nicely.
    
    Perhaps the ultimate "Fortress" around, presently, is the 13+ foot
    span B-17 scratch-built by my buddy, Kent Walters.  Powered by 4-O.S.
    .90's, this 100-pound monster looks like a real -17 somehow shrunk
    down in smoe sorta' Star Trek reducing machine.  To date, Kent's
    masterpiece has only one flight on it, but it was sheer majesty
    once Kent got 'er trimmed out after a somewhat hairy takeoff.  This
    model is detailed to replicate "Shoo-Shoo Baby," the -17 currently
    being restored by/for the USAF Museum, Wright-Patterson AFB, Dayton,
    Ohio.    

      |
      | |      00	 Adios,      Al
    |_|_|      ( >o
      |    Z__(O_\_	(The Desert Rat)

    And I thought I was crazy with my ME-262.. 10' B-17 indeed !!
    
    Hey, go for it... BTW, I think I saw something earlier in this file
    about some DECcie in Holland building a Lancaster..
    
    md

    The Monogram Speedee-Bilt kit for a 13" span static model of the
    B-17 arrived yesterday via UPS.  I obtained this vintage kit (copy-
    righted 1954) from Bart Cusick who has a huge collection of antique
    kits.
    
    This kit used machined balsa parts and blocks to flesh-out the fuselage
    over a simple crutch affair, onto which the wings are attached _prior_
    to beginning construction of the fuse.  The wings are two machined
    balsa shells (upper & lower) with a simple, internal rib structure.
    
    Engine nacelles, cowlings, props, main cabin, landing gear and all
    gun turrets are molded from plastic and add a more finished look
    to these detail areas.  The only problem with the kit is that some
    of these plastic pieces have shrunk/warped/etc. over the years,
    notably the main cabin and the upper-nose molding, just ahead of
    the windscreen.  I'll have to get creative in restoring and/or
    replacing these parts but the finished model should be a beaut.
          
    Of course, the decal sheet looks pretty "iffy" after some 34-years 
    but I may be able to get the correct markings and sizes from a local
    hobby shop that specializes in plastics.  If possible, I'd like
    to keep the model in the original, kit provided markings, those
    of "Memphis Belle."  That's how the one I entered in the 1957 Arizona
    State Fair was done and I'd like to recapture the nostalgia of that
    model (which won me a Best of Class ribbon and Special Merit rosette).
    Who knows, maybe I'll even enter _this_ one in the Fair and try
    to win its own ribbons, though I still have the ones from the original
    hanging up in the workshop.  This could be a problem, however, in
    that, due to the almost total lack of balsa static/display models
    today, there might not be a class to enter it in.  I had this happen
    when I entered a Stuka I'd scratchbuilt from balsa as a kid in the
    Fair in the early 60's...they had no balsa classes and lumped my
    model in with the plastics (where it _still_ managed a 2nd place).
    
    In any event, I'm fondly anticipating starting this nostalgic project
    and, through it, revisiting some very pleasant times as a youth.
      |
      | |      00	 Adios,      Al
    |_|_|      ( >o
      |    Z__(O_\_	(The Desert Rat)

    Al, Glad to hear that the B-17 arrived intact!  I tried hand carrying
    it out to you....Got my USAF reserve duty in ala cross training
    with the USN and P-3 squadron out of S. Weymouth, MA.  The flight
    was a "non-smooth" one, but interesting.  My old Connies are rotting
    in the sun in Tucson at Davis Monthan, my brother is a sheriff
    there....so there were a few other reasons for making the trip.....To
    make a long story short, we ran into a long line of thunderstorms
    and ended up spending the night in Albuquieque (or however you spell
    it).  Undaunted, upon return, I hired an elder friend of mine to
    drive the package to UPS the next week.
      Re: the finishing...I sure would like to learn a better way, or
    at least faster way than old fashoned filler & dope.  I tried covering
    the balsa skin with silk span and going from there...disaster the
    minute I tried scoring control surface lines...The finish was a
    lot harder than the wood underneath.  I tried sealing the wood,
    sanding smooth, resealing, then using auto body glazing putty, sanding,
    sealing, then spraying with commercial enamel in one area and Krylon?
    furniture paint on another....Beautiful at first, but a year later
    the wing surfaces cracked (looks just like sharp, long cement cracks.)
    I really don't make money on these old kits, but I do make a few
    bucks building them for the collectors....I've got a 1943 Hawk,
    1\48 scale XF4U in progress right now.  It's going to take about
    80 hours to complete, but would take half of that if I could cut
    back on the tedious sand-dope-sand-dope-sand-dope ad infiniteuuum.
    
    Awhile back someone asked about a light weight way to decorate/paint
    stick & tissue rubber models.  I havn't tried it yet, but there's
    an air brusk atachment on the market (try the local drafting/graphics
    supply store) that sprays the pigment off the tips of magic markers....
    choose from 300 colors, no clean up, no weight, very little moisture.
    
    I've just finished restoring/redrafting a complete set of the plans
    put out by Uncle Sam for kids to have used in the high school
    identification model building program back in 1942/3....Wow what
    a lot of work!  But maybe I'm one of the few left who remembers
    how to work in scale with india ink and french curve?  I took a
    set of the blueprints to the 100% scale fly in at Hampton Beach,
    MA airport.  One fellow offered me $65 for a set (@49-50 airplanes
    in 1/72 scale on 7 sheets).  Two others offered me $15 for single
    sheets......I was "test marketing a new-old product.... The weekend
    before last I took them to the EAA fly in at Orange-Athol, MA
    airport....but not that many showed up due to weather and conflicting
    aviation events....<A couple talked, but no sales>.... If I could
    find enough interest, I'd have them professionally printed and start
    advertising and maybe finally find a nich for a retirement business
    anyway.  Are there any people out there that remember the ID model
    program?  I collect the plastic and metal models for myself, and
    now am very much into the wood models.
    
      I'm off to reserve duty at Pease AFB, NH after the 15th for 2-3
    weeks, up th Hermit Island Maine camping, then hope to be back with
    youall for another six months... Possibly with my own account by
    then, and replies won't be so sporattic.
    
    RE: Anker---- Did you see our stattic display inside the hangar
    at the Hansckm AFB Open House?  Those little black models on the
    right side of the table were the ID models I refer to.
    
    An additional reply to note 66--Super glues has been added.
    (This is really a neat way to learn how to use the company
    product/terminal<1<<<<<<<<<<<<!
    
    Gotta punch out...Black Bart (That's a 104, over)
     
    ended up  

    Bart,
    
    On finishing balsa (or probably any other wood) static models,
    I believe dopes or any other lacquer based fillers to be the kiss-
    of-death for a long lasting finish.  These materials simply shrink
    too much over time, even the so-called low-shrink varieties, revealing
    every little flaw, glue-joint etc.
    
    I'm sold on using the epoxy fillers such as K&B primer to produce
    a nice, shrink-free base for the color-coats.  From this point,
    you can use almost any kind of paint you want without fear of cracking,
    shrinking, etc.  About the only thing I haven't decided is whether
    or not to cover the B-17 with .6-oz. cloth as a binding medium prior
    to priming.  That would be a lot of extra trouble but might be
    worthwhile in the long run...we'll see when I get to that point.
    
    I've been considering airbrushing the primed model with Humbrol
    or Pactra enamels, maybe even Poly-S acrylics over the K&B primer, 
    then adding whatever details, decals, etc. and applying a binder-coat 
    of K&B clear.  That should provide just about as bullet-proof,
    long-lasting a finish as is possible with today's materials.

      |
      | |      00	 Adios,      Al
    |_|_|      ( >o
      |    Z__(O_\_	(The Desert Rat)

    Al, It's been awhile.  How's the B-17 coming along?  It looks like
    I'll really be away from dtn 261-2666 after 17 Feb 89 this time.
     I might be landing in Phoenix in March  You want company for an
    hour?.... Bart Cusick, 34 Maple St., Fitchburg, MA 01420 (508)342-3644.
    
    Black Bart
    

    Bart,
    
    Haven't really gotten started on the B-17 as yet...started into
    it but immediately got distracted by several other projects/repairs
    and haven't gotten back to it as yet.
    
    Depends upon the weekend yer' coming thru Phoenix as to whether
    I'd have the chance to catch you at the airport.  Our 1/8 AF Spring
    RC Scale Fly-In is the 17th, 18th, 19th of March and the wife and
    I have a ski-trip planned for one of the remaining weekends, though
    I'm not sure which one without checking with her.  A weekday would
    be next to impossible, unfortunately, due to [UGH!] work.  But,
    if it works out where I can, I'd certainly love ta' meet'cha!  Keep
    me informed, amigo.    

      |
      | |      00	 Adios,      Al
    |_|_|      ( >o
      |    Z__(O_\_	(The Desert Rat)