Conference vmszoo::rc

    Brian,
    
    The spinners used in E-Z kits are likely manufactured by/for E-Z
    and, as far as I know, are not available separately.  The C.B.
    Associates line of spinners probably come closest to what you seek
    as they have an aluminum backplate grooved to accept a tongue on
    the back edge of the plastic spinner shell.  This spinner, however,
    requires an adaptor nut.  The C.B. spinner is one of the best and
    safest on the market.  I strongly recommend against the all-plastic
    spinners of various snap-on/screw-on varieties such as those sold by 
    Goldberg and others.  These are a "definite" safety hazard and can be 
    quite dangerous.
    
    On the star, you may be up against the wall on this one.  If you
    can't find what you need on the various decal sheets commercially
    available, you may have to resort to finding the right size in some
    kit and ordering the decal sheet from the kit manufacturer.  Failing
    this, yer' remaining option is to bite the bullet and mask/paint
    it yer'self.  This isn't as hard as it might sound...I cut masking
    templates for the stars on the MiG-3 from clear shelf paper [though
    I recommend artists' frisket paper as a better alternative], stuck
    the templates in the desired locations and sprayed the stars on
    with an aribrush....really quite easy and the results look better
    and wil far outlast any decal.
    
    Adios,	Al

Al, 

I used those Goldberg spinners once, and vowed to never use them again! I 
couldn't agree more... they ARE a hazard for certain!  Since then, I've 
used CB spinners, but I'm not crazy about the nut they provide and the 
idea of screwing it in through the center.  It seems prone to "unscrew."  
I was able, however, to get my hands on an "EZ" spinner at my local hobby 
shop separate from the kit(I think they sold it because it was kick'n 
around).  I really like the idea of TWO screws the go right into the 
aluminum back'n plate. It was called [I believe] a "box right" spinner.  
I would, if I could, use the machined AMA safety nuts exclusively if they 
"fit the ship", and with the "box right" spinner I could slip the AMA nut 
right inside!  Hence I'd like to find one for my Citabria Areo Pro.
(3 1/2 inch). I guess if nothing turns up, I'll go for the CB spinner.

About the decals.  This is the first model I'm painting... Hurrah!  I 
went with Coverite Silkspan I'll be sure to post you on my results.  I 
thought that I'd use a decal before the coat of clear epoxy and spray the 
epoxy right over the decal.  Does this work??  When you masked the stars 
on your MIG did ya first spray the color of the star and then mask[with 
the shape of the star] or vise versa??  

Al, one other thing... I bought a DGA pilot for the first time.  Any 
good tips on finishing them??

Thanks for the help Al!  I really appreciate it.

Brian

    Brian,
    
    SPINNERS:  What I especially "don't" like about the type you mention
    is the need to precisely align the prop-to-backplate in order for
    the prop-blade cutouts in the shell to locate properly while lining
    up the screws at the same time.  The C.B. type requires no such
    nonsense and the method for securing it via the adaptor nut has been 
    time-proven over many years. 
    
    STARS:  My masks were made to the outline of the star, then the
    star-color [red] was sprayed on.  You might consider simply cutting
    yer' stars from monokote, putting them in place and spraying over
    with K&B clear epoxy...this works fine and is a lot  easier than
    painting for a sport-type application.
    
    PILOT PAINTING:  I recommend any of the oil-base, water soluable 
    acrylics like those used in model railroading and for painting 
    plaster and ceramics.  I like the "Polly-S" brand of paints but 
    any brand will do.  Pactra military flat enamels also work well 
    but don't dry properly on some types of vinyl-plastics used for 
    molding pilots.  I haven't done a DGA pilot as yet but "do" know 
    that Pactra enamels won't work on Knights of the Air pilots.  As 
    far as I know, Polly-S [or equivalent] will go over virtually any-
    thing.  BTW, Polly-S paints can be found in the railroad department
    of most hobby shops @ about a dollar per bottle.
    
    Adios,	Al

>    SPINNERS:  What I especially "don't" like about the type you mention
>    is the need to precisely align the prop-to-backplate in order for
>    the prop-blade cutouts in the shell to locate properly while lining
>    up the screws at the same time.
 
     Yeah you're right Al.  One must precisely line the prop up on the 
     back plate to insure that the holes line up with those in the spinner
     cap.  But, it's not as hard as it sounds! There are two aluminum 
     protrusions in the back plate that ya use to line the prop up, and 
     "presto" the cap goes right on virtually trouble free.


     Thanks for the advise on the Monocoat!  Sounds like it work just fine if I
     make a template to cut several.  


    Thanks Al,

    Brian
  

    I echo Dan's request.  I have used the Goldberg spinners on all
    of my planes except one, and I have never had a problem.  I have
    broken a couple, but only in crashes.  They take a little work to
    break them in when new, and I always have to carve the openings
    out to fit my props, but I don't see the safety issue.  I never
    use a starter on my engines, but I know plenty of people who do.
    
    Charlie
    

>I used those Goldberg spinners once, and vowed to never use them again! I 
>couldn't agree more... they ARE a hazard for certain!  Since then, I've 

I also have been using these with no problems - what is the hazard?

>I would, if I could, use the machined AMA safety nuts exclusively if they 
>"fit the ship", and with the "box right" spinner I could slip the AMA nut 
>right inside!  Hence I'd like to find one for my Citabria Areo Pro.
>(3 1/2 inch). I guess if nothing turns up, I'll go for the CB spinner.

What is an AMA safety nut?  I think I may actually be using one of these?
Is this the acorn shaped nut with the hole in it?  If so I think they are
unsafe.  Why - I don't know but they keep spinning off my 4 stroke and the 
prop follows - haven't been hurt yet - but I've had props in my lap several
times.  I'm a slow learner but I agree with Al - I'm not buying 4 strokes
any more - I'm tempted to sell the two that I have - better yet trade for
a nice 2 stroke.  I have a Saito .45 and an OS .60 FS.  Maybe I'll take them
to the upcoming auctions.

              _!_      
Bye        ----O----   
Kay R. Fisher / \     

================================================================================

    Re. .5, .6 & .8,
    
    The all-plastic, snap-on/screw-on type spinners like Goldberg makes
    are prone to vibration induced fatiguing of the plastic causing
    structural failure of the securing mechanism, eminating in spitting
    the spinner shell/cone off, usually into the prop with the resultant
    flying plastic shrapnel.  Additionally, they tend "not" to run true
    or in balance [or both] aggravating the above problem.
    
    Starters are a no-no with these spinners [as, again, they may well
    damage the mechanism and fascillitate a failure] and if you ever
    "ding" one in a mishap, you may overstress the plastic and may well 
    have a time time-bomb on yer' hands waiting for just the right moment
    to explode in yer' face.  It is certainly possible that these problems
    may well be less apparent on smaller engines but, from .40 and up,
    yer' playing a literal game of Russian-roulette, with yer' hands,
    eyes, even yer' life as the stakes!!
    
    NO THANX!!  My eyes and fingers are too precious to me; I'll spend
    the extra coupla' bucks for a substantial, well engineered spinner
    and feel just a little more secure when reaching/leaning around
    a running engine.  I've seen enough of these cheap spinners disin-
    tegrate to warrant putting my personal "kiss of death" on them!
    
    Kay..., the nut you describe is, indeed, the mythical AMA prop nut.
    I've always found it humorous, if not ludicrous, that the AMA is
    so concerned to cover the propshaft threads [for safety?], never
    mind about the several punds of airplane, flying at upwards of 100mph,
    that follows immediately behind the nut...hah!  If yer' ever hit
    by a model and are convinced the safety nut diminished yer' injury
    one iota, I'll pi** in yer' flat hat!  :-))  I'd logic that the
    reason it seems prone to spinning off is is because of it's increased
    mass.  The increased shock a 4-stroke transmits to the propshaft
    is more likely to loosen and spit off the nut in direct proportion
    to its weight/mass.  I'm with you; I'm a "long" way from being sold
    on the proposition that a 4-cycle is a viable enough, fiddle-free
    enough and [most importantly] safe enough powerplant for me
    [personally] to entertain using one.           
    
    Adios amigos,	Al    

    I don't know about you guys, but i have a hell of a time
    snapping and unsnapping the goldberg spinners i've used
    on and off! I agree with Al that a cracked spinner might be 
    a hazzard but as far as the rest of the problems he's talked
    about, i've never had a one! They seem to snap and hold "EXTRA"
    tight. Now that this subject was brought up, i'm gonna look
    into it further and check out the differences with other spinners!
    I too value my fingers and eyes. It also might be good practice
    to pop the spinner and make sure the prop is tight before daily
    flight sessons as a loose prop could make that spinner a dangerous missle!
                                                      
    Tom
    

    I have always wondered why the AMA requires a spinner or rounded
    prop nut.  I concur with Al that it really shouldn't reduce injuries
    due to impact any more than plastic coating a bullet.  I can see
    why you would want something round and smooth if you use a starter,
    and I can see why you would want a better attaching method than
    snap on if you use a starter.  I heard of a guy getting hurt when
    the rubber cone flew off of his starter and hit the prop while he
    was starting his engine.  I'll take Al's advice and avoid the
    snap-on spinners on my larger engines.  I can see how damage to
    the lugs that snap into the hub could be invisible after the nose
    is snapped on.  I had one of the lugs break off when I was removing
    the nose once.
    
    Charlie
    

    Re: _.10, Dan, 
    
    Obviously, I can't speak to the experiences/observations of others.
    I can only refer to the one failure I had [cone departed in flight 
    never to be seen again] and the many I've observed, some causing
    rather nasty injuries.  On that basis, I don't believe the all-
    plastic, snap-on style spinner is to be trusted, no matter how long
    the odds may appear...the stakes are simply too high to suit "me."
    
    Adios amigo,	Al

    Dan,
    
    I'm just winging from fading memory [it's been awhile since I boned
    up on the AMA reg's] but I "think" the AMA nut is only required(?)
    when a spinner is "not" used though, if [fading] memory serves,
    it might also be "suggested' for use inside a spinner...to what
    purpose heaven only knows.
    
    Charlie put it quite well when he compared the AMA safety nut to
    plastic coating a bullet...the safety value seems so infinitesimal as
    to be quite laughable.  I expect that's why you don't see any mammoth
    program(s) [on the part of the AMA] to force their use.
    
    Adios,	Al

	Well now I guess we all have formulated some sort of an opinion 
	regarding spinners, AMA safety nuts etc...  I personally HAVE had 
	a Goldberg spinner "fly" of on my first trainer.  For this reason,
	Kay, I vowed NEVER to use the use them again.  (Darn near got hit!)
	I personally like the AMA safety nuts, particularly when using 
	wooden props, because one can use ANY small screwdriver or alan
	wrench in the flight box to give the prop a "good" tightening
	prior to each flight.  You don't have to fish around for the right 
	size wrench or the glow wrench (that [in my case] is usually out and
	about looking at other planes at the field! :-)) It's simply that they
	[The AMA nuts] don't always "fit the ship" so to speak. 

	My vote is, at minimum, to use the legendary AMA safety nut or spend 
	the extra five bucks and buy something similar to those made by CB 
	Associates... or those infamous E-Z Spinners that are sacred only to 
	their so called "kits". :-)  DON'T settle for one that was simply 
	"hatched" from a mold and expected to "fit"/snap together!

	
	/Brian
	

    As suggested earlier in this topic, I went out last night and bought
    a C.B assc. spinner. I'm a little disapointed that you have to cut
    your own holes for the prop but I'm sure I'll manage, just as I
    did with the checker board paint job (thanks Al). Is there any secret
    to doing this or just mark where your prop will be and cut two similar
    holes for clearance? Thank again for the up-coming advice.
                                                        Jim

    Jim,
    
    The spinner cones are left blank so the individual modeler can cut
    it out to suit his specific application.  It really isn't all that
    tough...I've been doing it since I was a kid and all spinners were
    aluminum and blank.  Anyone remember the old Froom spinners?
    
    The easiest way to do it is to take a broken prop of the size you
    intend to use and cut it off just outside the edge(s) of the back-
    plate.  Use the cross section of the prop to determine the size/shape
    of the required cutout and make a paper pattern of it.
    
    Now, assemble the prop stub to the backplate and, sighting down
    from the top, mark the backplate at the edges of the prop for both
    blades.  Remove the prop stub, install the cone and transfer these
    marks from the backplate to the cone.  Now you know precisely _where_ 
    the cutouts need to be.
    
    Using the paper patterns you made earlier, draw on the shape of
    the cutouts and yer' ready to start cutting.  I use a Dremel tool
    with a high speed carbide router bit to cut out and rough-finish
    the cutouts near to but _NOT_ clear to the pattern lines.  I final
    cut the cutouts with a _sharp_ #11 X-acto, trial fitting the cone
    to the backplate/prop stub 'til I have the desired finished shape.
    
    Caution:  Assure that the cutout clears the prop all the way around
    on both blades.  If the spinner contacts the prop anywhere, a potential
    to damage the prop and/or throw a blade exists on .40 and up size
    engines.
    
    Adios,	AL

    Re: .27/.28,
    
    While it may be a little late to help Jim, I confirmed a suspicion
    last night while browsing at a local hobby emporium.
    
    In the back of my mind, I was certain that C&B spinners were available
    with the prop cutouts already done.  It's been so long since I've
    been custom cutting my own, however, that I wasn't _absolutely_
    sure so I didn't want to comment `til I could verify this fact.
    
    Sure enough, hanging on the peg-board was a display of C&B spinners
    with a pre-cut and a cut-it-yer'self model for virtually all sizes.
    If yer' local shop doesn't carry a pre-cut model in the size you
    require, ask them to check the catalog and order one for you if
    you prefer not to have to do yer' own cutting.
    
    C&B also has a line of aluminum spinners, identical to the plastics
    except that the cone is aluminum.  The tongue-in-groove cone-to-
    backplate feature is still there.  The shop I visited only had
    a coupla' aluminum models and these were all blanks so I'm not certain
    that precut models are available.  However, if you prefer a metal
    spinner, I've always felt that they're easier to cut out than are
    the plastic models.
    
    Speaking of metal spinners, the Cadillac has to be the Fox spinner.
    Machined from aluminum bar-stock rather than being made from sheet
    stock spun over a form, the Fox spinner has to be the most durable
    around.  Of course, the price reflects the quality as the Fox is
    one of the most expensive items around...but well worth it if
    you like a highlty polished metal spinner.  At least one other company
    [it may be Tru-Turn, I'm not positive] advertises spinners turned
    from bar-stock but I have no experience with this model.  Bottom
    line, the bar-stock spinner is the truest running, best balanced
    spinner you'll find.  The bad part is they're difficult-to-impossible
    to repair/refinish once you've run their noses into the ground.
    
    One of the [few] advantages to plastic spinners is that they can
    be filled using resin/balloons or Bondo, smoothed out and repainted
    to look like new when scuffed/scratched up.  The reverse side of
    this, however, is that a painted spinner has to be handled carefully,
    especially when using electric starters, to keep from marring the
    paint.  Seems there's _always_ a tradeoff, doesn't it?
    
    Adios,	Al 
    
    P.S.  I recently read that C&B spinners have been bought out but
    I've forgotten who bought them.  Anyone remember seeing this?  If
    so, can you provide the name of the new supplier of these spinners?

    RE: NOTE 1,& 2
    
    AL,
    
     YOU GUYS WERE RIGHT!! I HAD MY GOLDBERG SPINNER COME FLYING 
    OFF WHILE I WAS STARTING IT! I WAS LUCKY IT DIDN'T COME AT ME.
    I'M DEFINATELY GONNA CHECK OUT THE "E-Z" SPINNERS AND A FEW
    OTHERS....I DON'T HAVE TO BE TOLD TWICE!
    
    						TOM

    Tom,
    
    Glad ta' hear the lesson was so easily and _painlessly_ learned!
    Try a C&B Associates spinner...I've never know of one to fail and
    they're available with pre-cut or blank cones.
    
    Certainly, it's possiblr for just about _any_ type spinner to come
    off, particularly when a backfire is involved but I firmly believe
    the C&B type to be the safest currently available.  They're safe
    for use with a starter and the tongue-in-groove cone-to-backplate
    mating makes them true running and vibration free.
    
    Adios amigo; again, glad no one was hurt,	Al