Conference vmsnet::hunting$note:hunting

    
    Well Jeff, I was privy to help a friend of mine  build his hunters
    cabin. Although I didn't experience a lot of it, there was a couple
    of things that stuck out.
    
    This guys cabin is about your size, except made from all commercial
    lumber. The cabin has the same sort of accessability as yours....
    A 2000' canoe ride from some guys property willing to share his dock,
    followed by about a 2000' foot access *trail* that we hacked out of 
    the forest. Although it sounds like you've done most of it, you
    can rent industrial strength 'weed eaters' to clear bramble and trees
    up to 2". It has a saw blade instead of wire. We cut the 2000' trail
    ~5-6' wide in about 4hours. It cost ~$50. It gave a good start to 
    the task ahead.
    
    Also, something to consider with winter approaching. This guy ordered
    all the lumber/peripherals he needed in the previous fall. Had a lumber
    truck drop off the stuff at the dock and they dragged by snowmobile
    and sled all the lumber across the lake and through the forest. It 
    took 5 or 6 guys almost all day be he seemed to think it was well 
    worth it. The wood etc was covered outside with those industrial 
    tarps through winter and wasn't harmed.
    
    I've heard that the trees you use for log cabins have to be well and
    truly dry. If you haven't already looked into it you might want to.
    Maybe others can comment.
    
    Oh yeah, this the second winter, he brought in a stove over the summer.
    Beleive me in was DAMN COLD last year deer hunting without it. Mind
    you, there were no doors or windows in then. The stove is an old
    wood stove about 3' tall ~1'+ round. To give you an idea... the 
    coldest night we had up north last week (When we got our 2 deer ;-))
    was -10C (~20F) outside. We got the cabin up to a toasty 80 before
    bed at about 10:00. By 5:00am the next morning, inside the cabin was
    down to a frosty 28 degrees. He has about the same area as you.
    
    To urge you on, I saw the intended site two years ago. Trudging though
    fallen trees and bramble I thought 'what the hell is this guy doing!'
    Way out in the middle of no where. Well, last week I looked at how
    far he'ed come, tiled roof,doors,windows,insulated floor and a 
    trampled trail and saw quite an accomplishment. Something he'ed better
    be proud of. Keep your head up. You've got quite a challenge ahead of
    you. I can remember a couple of down in the dumps conversations with
    him. Just keep going. Beleive me it's worth every ounce of effort!
    I wish I had one to call my own.
    
    Good luck.					/ Andrew /

      Thanks Andrew for the reply and the advice. Like I said we started
    clearing a road about 8 yrs. ago, and even went to the extent of
    haveing it bulldozed to take out the stumps etc. The dozer operator
    did a rough job of it, but made it a little more passable for a
    while. Now 8 yrs. later it needs to be done again, maybe next year.
      This road is also about 2000' long. The good thing about the land
    is that our 20 acres abutts approx 200 acres owned by a radio station
    that they have their tranmission towers on, which then abutts the
    Savoy State forest. In other words, they won't likely be developing
    in back of us ever, this I like!
    
      As far as drying the logs goes, I'm going to start dropping trees
    over the winter, before the sap starts running back up the tree
    from the roots, which I beleive occurs during Feb + Mar. Then they
    have to be debarked, and stacked to dry out.
    
      I have been gradually preparing for this for many years, for instance
    when I took a small room off of my house I saved the windows. I
    now have 2 double/double hung windows, one gas stove to tie in to
    propane, a couch, 2 chairs, and a kitchen table and 4 chairs.
    
      The Best part is this part of the Berkshires has PLENTY of DEER
    
    and BEAR ETC. ETC.  :-)  :-)
    
            << Jeff >> who hopes to be hunting the Berkshires soon !!!!

    	Jeff,
     My Dad has a camp in the White Mtns. and we have no electricity or
    phone. Everything is gas. Gas lights, stove, refrigerator and heat. The
    water comes from a point driven well with an old fashioned hand pump.
    It has served us quite well over the years. You may have a problem
    locating a refrigerator. New ones now cost $100 a cubic foot. Which is
    rediculous. I guess they are now only made in Germany. Used ones might
    command a high price but a friend of mine from Quebec, Canada recently
    told me there are plenty of used ones to find  up there that are in
    decent shape. It might be worth the ride up there to save quite a bit
    money. He told me about his Uncle who had about 50 of them. Our gas
    heater will blow us out of there even when well below zero. We have a
    40 year old mobile home. Good luck!
    							Bret

    My camp is also one without electricity, although it is on a paved and
    plowed road.  I second the gas refrigerator.  I have one and think it's
    fantastic.  I'm up in the mountains of western Maine.  Gas supply
    dealers have or seem to know where to get these refrigerators.  A good
    brand is Servell (sp?).  A note of caution on them.  Make sure you keep
    the flue clean.  If it builds up carbon or if a mouse gets in the heat
    exchange box, you'll get incomplete propane combustion, a.k.a. carbon
    monoxide.  Might even consider venting it to the outside.  Also, when
    not using the frig., make sure to leave the door open to avoid mold and
    mildew.
    
    While building the camp, consider wiring it for electricity even if not
    planned for use immediately.  It's a lot easier to do during
    construction rather than later.  Also, it allows for the addition of a
    generator if you should so desire.  The guys that built my place wired
    it when it was built 35 years ago.  They used a generator some of the
    time, and now that Central Maine Power is considering running power up
    my road, all I have to do is run it to the box and I'm finished.  (I
    have mixed emotions of having power at all, but if they run it by I
    will hook up.)
    
    Another construction possibility.   The guys that build my place
    constructed all the framing at home, then hauled it all up on a
    flatbed truck.  They had all the convenience of access to tools, power,
    etc. and then just assembled it on site.  roof shingles and interior
    stuff was done after the frame was in place.
    
    I've got a woodstove and a fireplace.  That fireplace, no matter how
    inefficient, is fantastic on a cold night.  
    
    Hand pump.  Make sure you install it right beside the sink.  Makes it
    really convenient.
    
    Separate shed.  Consider a separate shed for storing tools, generator,
    propane tanks, etc. and build it without windows and with strong walls
    and a strong lock.  Unfortunately, remote camps are tempting break in
    targets.  (mine has had it 4 times in 17 years).  Anything of value in
    the camp will be taken.  My shed however has never been touched. 
    People look for thigs that can quickly be turned to cash or consumed
    (liquor, sleeping bags, firearms, lanterns, radios, etc.)  My advice is
    NOT to leave anything there that you wouldn't deeply regret losing.
    
    MUST have a fire extinguisher.  
    
    Provide windows with locking shutters.  This is both to keep out the
    unwanted, but also for buttoning up the place when you aren't around
    from the elements.
    
    Good luck with your camp.  I went trhough a divorce and willingly gave
    up my house, but would have died rather than lose my camp.
    
    Pete
    

    
    
    	The best advice that I can give .0 is ...find a responsible
    	fun loving DEC M.E. to donate that piece of property to.  You don't
    need the hassles of upkeep and property taxes that you will encounter
    in the future.  I will reluctantly take it off your hands, and suffer
    with a four season get-away for myself and family.  Send me the deed
    through Interoffice, and I will take care of any transfer charges.
    
    	Just trying to help
    
    
    		CP
    

    I'm currently building a camp in central Maine, the major part of
    the building work is done, now for the inside finish work. I can drive
    to my place, it's 1.5 miles down a logging road, then my 400 ft driveway
    that I had bulldozed/graveled last year. No electricity, all propane
    appliances (lights, stove, frig). I heat with a woodstove, but have a
    propane heater in the bedroom, so it stays a constant temp. overnight.
    I have one of the Servel refrigerators (propane), and it works great.
    They're real old, no longer made, and a used one in Maine will cost
    you from $200-$700 depending on the size and how bad you get ripped
    off. New ones are made, and cost about $900 for a 7 cu ft one, but they
    are nice, and a lot more efficient than the old Servels.
    	I have no running water yet, and have an outhouse for the bathroom.
    I'm interested in how much luck people have had with the driven well
    points. How can I tell if that will work for me ? How far do I need to
    drive (typically). I am on a lake, so I believe the water table can't
    be far below the surface (right ??), but have no idea what kind of
    ground water supply  a well point needs. Any clues ?
    	I remember trudging through the woods 1/2 mile to get to my camp
    location, and I remember carrying in wood/tools/supplies to start the
    work. It's tough carrying saws/shovels/materials into the woods. It's
    tough walking stepping over trees/slash and the naturally rocky ground
    I'm located on (boulders). Now it's easier, and there's still nobody
    else around yet. Every now and then I look back at pictures of where
    I started, and it's hard to believe how much difference a couple
    years can make, and what I went through. It gives you a real sense of
    accomplishment, and you appreciate what you have. Stick with it !
    	Now, if only I can hang on to an extra week of vacation until next
    fall, so I can hunt from it !  If not, then the next year definitely.
    
    
    			Steve

    Re: .6
    My well is just a hand dug hole right outside the "kitchen" window. 
    The ground was so rocky that I doubt I could have driven a point.  What
    I did was every time I went up there I just did a bit more digging. I
    dug the deepest in the driest part of the summer so the water table
    would be at its lowest.  Then just settle in as many well tiles as you
    need to bring them above the surface of the surrounding ground.  In the
    spring I have water within two feet of the surface and in August, about
    5 feet.  I dug the well 8 ft. deep in all and could go deeper, but
    don't need to.
    
    I've never tested the water, but I use it for cooking, coffee, washing,
    everything except drinking. That comes from a spring just down the
    road.
    
    I custom-made a cover for the well by making a circular form, pouring
    in cement, and left a square form for a 1' square "hatch cover" and
    another place to run a pipe into the well through the cover.  The cover
    keeps the well water from ever freezing even though the outside temp
    goes way below zero.  Since I don't have electricity and no means to
    keep a line from freezing, I didn't bother to run any underground lines
    to/under the camp. (I don't have a foundation, just columns set in the
    ground.)
    
    If you are digging any wells by the method I just described, rememebr
    that you are essentially using surface or only slightly subsurface
    water.  Make sure you are upstream of things like outhouses.
    
    Heck, if you are on or quite near a lake or pond, you could just run
    your line right into the lake and now you've got a really big well for
    a big part of the year!
    

      
      This is great, thanks for all the interesting responces, they're
    all great! As far as a well goes, I found a hand-dug well about
    150' down an old farming road that I'm building my camp near. It
    was lined with field stone, and the water level in the fall appears
    to be about 8' deep. But unfortunately, that well is just off our
    property line by a mere 25' or so, so I don't want to try useing
    it since it isn't mine.
    
      In responce to a question that was made about how deep point wells
    typically go - usually the max. depth that you can effectively drive
    a point is about 40'.  The depth of the water depends on the water
    table in the area etc.  I know in my area, my land is constantly
    pitching up hill, and the abundance of ferns and surface water seen
    lead me to beleive that there are a lot of springs up there, makeing
    access to water good. Also taking into account the hand dug well
    not far away indicating the water table. Rule of thumb is, the deeper
    that you drive your point, or the lower that you access your water
    source from, the lesser the chances of contamination from the surface
    ocurring.
    
      Question - about the gas lighting fixtures, etc.  Do you use propane
    type lanterns that tie into black iron pipe fixtures, or copper
    tubing fixtures, or are these antique lighting fixtures that you
    use?
    
      Also, as far as toilet facilities are concerned. I was going to
    stay away from an out-house, as they are both illegal, and might
    be a source of contamination to the water supply etc. 
      What is the set up that your camps use?
    
      I was thinking of useing a port-a-potty and causeing that to flush
    into a 30 gal. drum-holding tank that I could possibly empty at
    home or wherever in a propper manner.  Any ideas? Suggestions?
    Bottom line - DO ANY OF YOU GUYS KNOW YOUR SH*T ??!!??  :-) :-)
    
      Also, in responce to I beleive it was .5  - I dought that I'd
    will or leave this camp to you and your family, but.... if you 
    want the job of emptying the port-a-potty  :-) :-) Than you can
    stay/hunt for your dedicated efforts.
      P.S.- You MUST know your SH*T !!!  :-) :-)
    
      Anyway, the responces are great and interesting reading, Keep
    them coming!!
    
                           << Jeff >>

    I envy you guys with the remote camps.  Re: .4, I once was a guest
    fishing out of a remote camp about an hour or so on logging roads
    past Moosehead lake Maine.  Once there we had to canoe across the
    river to get to the camp.  The owner there said he did not bother
    locking it.  He didn't leave any real valuables there, of course, but
    he did have a small sign on the inside of the door telling people they
    are welcome, but please leave it better than they found it.  He has
    returned to find cut, split and stacked for him, bottles of liquor,
    etc.
    
    Mark,
    

    Re: .8
    The gas lighting fixtures I have are relatively new and still available
    from local (in Maine) hardware stores/gas or fuel dealers.  The company
    name that makes them is Humphrey.  They make a wide variety of gas
    lamps and fixtures.  Mine are just hooked up with copper tubing and
    work fine.  Also makes it easy to splice in additional lights later.
    
    As to toilet facilities.  I do have an outhouse, but I don't think
    present laws allow new ones to be set up.  I also have an indoor
    toilet.  It's a standard porcelin (sp?) toilet and I just fell the tank
    with one of several 5 gal. plastic buckets.  The waste then goes to a
    homebuilt cesspool that was made by just having a backhoe dig a hole,
    lining it in a circular fashion with cinderblocks (non-mortared) on
    side (holes facing horizontal) and then backfilled around the
    perimeter.  There's a line attached with orangeberg pipe leading away
    to serve as a leaching field, but the level almost never rises that
    high.  (This line is also underground obviosly.)  This set up may also
    not be legal by new codes, but was legal when installed and is now
    grandfathered.  If you use something similar, bre sure to NEVER leave
    water in the toilet tank or bowl in winter.  It will freeze and then
    crack the units.  I use the indoor toilet in the winter months and make
    sure the bowl and tank are virtually empty and then put a handfull of
    rock salt in the bowl before leaving.  Never had a problem.  Also, the
    toilet does not have a trap (other than in the unti itself) thus
    insuring that a trap won't freeze and crack. 
    
    This summer I stayed at the camp of a friend on the seacost of Maine. 
    He didn't have land even for a septic system, so he installed a
    composting toilet.  It seemed to work quite well and didn't have all
    the "atmosphere" associated with an outhouse.
    
    There are also propane and electric models that require no septic
    system either, like the composter.  These are the way to go when zoning
    codes prohibit alternatives or if finances won't permit full septic
    system arrangements.
    
    Pete  (Who knows his etc.....!)
    

       
    
      In reply to .10, Thanks Pete for the info, and for knowing your
    SH*% !!  I thnk I'm going to look further into the toilets that
    work from propane etc.
      
      Also in talking to another friend of mine, he informed me that
    copper tubing was used with compression fittings to tie everything
    together. Sounds like a good winter project to find all these camp
    necessities and be ready for (hopefully) this summer.
    
      We were contacted by a logging outfit from N.Y., seems they are
    surveying how many land owners in Florida/Ma. would be interested
    in having their land logged.  In the letter they explain how the
    logging process benefits deer and other wildlife habitat, so we're
    thinking seriously of going along with it.  Not so much for the
    profits involved, as they will probably be slim, but for the benefit
    of bettering the deer habitat.  Once I have a place to stay up there
    then I will take the time to clear areas and plant apple trees etc.
    for more deer browse for the future.  ANYBODY WANT TO GO HUNTING!!!
    
      Sounds better all the time, I can't wait to get working up there
    right after hunting season this year, unless snowfall prevents me.
    
                  GOOD HUNTING ALL !!!
    
                       << Jeff >>

    
    On the gas accessories, DON'T use the compression fittings. After a 
    period of time they tend to develop leaks around the fittings, or
    so I'm told by the people that live buy these lights/tubing. Instead,
    buy the fittings for flared tubing, and flare the tubing at any unions,
    tees, or connections (mine are single flared, but I'm told you can get
    a double flare tool, even better !) And check for leaks before lighting
    anything, I just used soapy water, and was surprised to find a small
    leak in one of my flares. (a tiny leak, but NO leaks is what you want)
    	Oh yeah, the camping trailer places (Camper Inn in Ayer) are where
    I get my brass fittings for the flared tubing. Make sure you get
    seamless tubing (I've never seen anything else though). Also Mass
    hardware seems to have a good selection of brass fittings/adapters.
    	As far as the logging, I'm not sure how the company you're talking
    to works, but make absolutely sure that they will NOT clearcut your
    lot. You want it cut selectively, and make sure that you mark any trees
    that you don't want cut. Otherwise, they'll "select the best and leave
    the rest". The logged area will benefit wildlife, but will make your
    land much more difficult for you to travel/explore (as in THICK growth
    and brush). I'd leave enough mature trees to protect much of the area
    from becoming overgrown (no sunlight to the ground, not much new
    growth). This way you could control the amount of new growth in a
    manageable fashion. The logging companies will go after your most
    mature (as in best) trees. If you have anything like a 2'-3' dia. Pine
    or Oak tree, I'd save those, because you'll never grow them back in
    your lifetime, but the lumber mills would love to get them. Those trees
    have been growing for lots of years, you don't just replace them
    overnight. One of the things that I enjoy most about my land is the few
    "big" trees that I have, new growth just isn't as attractive. I'd
    personally walk the land with whoever was going to cut my land, to make
    sure we understood each other, and what to leave behind.
   	On the subject of waste disposal, I seem to remember that camping
    trailer places and their supply catalogs have some plastic "holding
    tanks", for holding the kind of stuff you wouldn't want to ! You could
    plumb something into these, or dump a porta-potti into one, then take
    it to a waste disposal area (like at a campground, do they charge ? Must)
    They're not that big, probably 5-10 gallons, but if you think that
    you're gonna carry a thirty gallon drum of waste no problem... thats
    a lot of weight, better not stumble  :-)
    	Other rural techniques:
    
    		scratch a hole each time, and kick the dirt back when done
                
    		find a low spot to use, then cover with a rock/log after
    		
    		walk a short distance to your neighbors lot, let him deal
    		with it
    
    
    	I know my stuff  !!

    
    	RE: -.1  I disagree about strip-cuts!  Strip cuts are where you
    find an abundance of deer and wildlife.  Although they usually grow
    up to a nasty mess, the edges can be hunted effectively.  Just think
    of the big bucks you'll have hiding out in it.  Also, a mature forest
    with big 2'-3' trees may look nice, but those trees are pretty much
    worthless to the deer unless they're mast producing.
    
    my .02 worth, Rob
    

    re: .13
    
    	I totally agree that the new growth is supportive of wildlife,
    whereas the older trees are more cosmetic. That's why in my last reply
    I said that the cutting WOULD benefit the wildlife in the area.
    	However, for me at least, I prefer to have a mixed woods area
    immediately around my camp. But I only have a few acres, if I had a
    larger lot (acreage), I would probably clearcut some of it to provide
    habitat/food as you suggested. Powerlines are a good example of thick
    brush, and a lot of deer are shot on/around powerline cuts. I guess it
    all depends on how much land you have, as to what will serve you best.
    
    
    			steve

    
    
       Thanks again for the input, I totally agree about avoiding
    clear-cuts, and marking trees NOT to be cut. Another concern that
    I have is that they don't use my access road to skid the logs out
    on. There are a lot of sweat/painstaking hours of work in clearing
    it, and the last thing that I need is to have the logging outfit
    rut-it up etc. thus causeing erosion.  After we had it bulldozed,
    it was passable for a while, then between winter run off, and in
    the spring we had a 4wd. do some exploring in the (then soft mud).
      As a result we can't go very far up anymore until I gravel it.
    This road is over a thousand feet long and would cost a small fortune
    to do properly, so I planned to try to fill in the ruts, and propperly
    gravel the entrance to provide a parking area etc.
      Thanks for the sound advice on the flared tubing fittings, sounds
    like it could have been a dangerous mistake!
    
      This is off the beaten path, but, does anyone hunt out of their
    home state useing a pickup camper?  Just another future aquisition
    that I'm considering.
    
                            << Jeff >>

    
    	Loggers make darn good roads. They are experts. If you let them log
    they will probably be glad to fix your road for you. 
    

    
    
    Helped a friend of mine build his camp a couple years ago...his father
    being a carpenter in his early days decided to make it easy on us..
    he cut the wood for entire camp in his garage..marked each piece of 
    wood for us saying what wall it was for and what position it was to
    be in! took him about 4 hours to cut out the supports for the
    floor,walls,ceiling and roof...then we loaded up everything in a couple
    pick up trucks and within one day the three of us had everything but
    the plywood on the roof. The next day the windows were dropped in and
    the door placed in and roof put on...just being a nail hammer guy and
    not know diddley about building things i was amazed to see a 16' X 20'
    room go up in less then a full weekend...
    
    al

    
    re;swagloks (compression fittings)
    
    I don't believe that compression fittings leak after
    a certain amount of time. If someone was bending the 
    copper tubing around (installing another light, moving
    the pipe, etc) then I might believe it. I just installed
    two propane lights in my camp and I used the compression
    fittings. Flaring each individual joint is a pain, why do 
    if you don't have to. My father has been a pipe fitter
    for 25 years at a local IBM manufacturing plant and I don't
    think that they would use compression fittings on toxic
    gases (silane,acids,name_your_best_poisonous_gas_for_manufacturing
    _chips)if they were succeptable to leaking "after a certain
    period of time." 
    
    Jon

    Jeff,
    After reading all the notes i'll give you my 2 pennies worth of info,
    Have you considered an A-Frame? Here in the norteast they make for
    a relatively worry free environment in the woods/winter. You dont have
    to worry to much about weight/stuff on the roof, nor leaks in the roof.
    You can still have the loft area and generally you can work out more
    sq. footage and with the old pot bellie in the middle you can sit
    around it at night and swap the stories and it heat up the place prety
    well.
    
    For the gas appliances you  may want to check any good size RV place.
    they all basically run on both propane/electric. They can also give
    you directions on the TILLIE.
    
    I have heard of people making some fairly decnet money having their
    lots professionally logged, as previously mentioned, just have
    everything in writing and all the I's dotted.
    
    Good luck and happy hunting,
    Jack

    Re: Note 0.
    
    I have put up a few log cabins, cottages garages, I have also build
    some frame structures including my house. Here are some pros and cons
    and tips for building log structures and frame structures.
    
    Pros Log structures.
    
    Relatively inexpensive, easy to finish, minimal skill in constructions,
    good looking as hunt camps, low maintenance.
    
    Cons Log structures
    
    You'll probably get a hernia, my brother and dad ended up with one
    while we were putting up the lattest log structure, get in shape it you
    are going to do this. You need some decent equipment to skid the logs
    out of the bush, a horse is probably the best I have seen for selective
    loging, gets into places where you would have a tough time with
    anything mechanized. I have used a variety of skidding machines, an old
    one ton FORD with tire chains and an old hand powered winch mounted in
    the bed, a LANDROVER and a tractor. If you cannot get your hands on
    some mechanized junk that you don't mind getting all banged up get one
    of those portable gas winches. They are the best and most versatile
    winches I have used. Take them anywhere. Not only will they skidd you
    logs out to an area that you can tie your family sedan to for the final
    pull, they will also prove indispesable in when you are building the
    walls from the logs. If you are going to do this drop me a note and I
    will give you some tips on getting the logs up in an easy and limb and
    life unthreating ways and how to fit the logs.
    
    Size limit, unless your trees are form the West Coast and you have a
    tree claw you are pertty well limited to 25 foot logs max. I.E. if you
    wnat longer walls you will have to break the walls with some other
    structure, a brick chimney or something like that. Count on minimum
    seven log sides for a 6 to 7 foot ceiling.
    
    You'll have to chink the cracks. NO problem if you know some tricks.
    
    You will never get a log structure as air tight as a frame. But when
    you are heating with wood, who cares.
    
    You'll need some muscle power from your friends.
    
    If you cut the logs in the winter that's OK, just make sure that, if
    they are spruce/pine, that you peel them as soon as the bark thoughs
    out. I'll come off nice and easy in big strips, if you let the bark
    dry, you'll be out there with the bark knife which you should get a
    couple of anyways. If you are cutting ceder, then the reverse is true
    let the bark dry and if will easily come off. I preffer cedar, if I can
    find nice long and straight logs, which is not always easy. 
    
    Lay the logs and then cut windows and doors into the structure. Unless
    you have a shortage of good logs and want to use the openings as breaks
    in logs.
    
    BUILD a good FOUNDATION, log structures are very heavy  you do not want
    all of your hard labour end up in a twisted wreck when the foundation
    gives.
    
    Log structures tend to move around as they dry and shrink, keep this in
    mind when you are putting up the roof base structure, otherwise you'll
    have a wavy roof in a few years.
    
    Pros of frame structures
    
    Faster to put up, probably won't get a hernia, better insulated, need
    smaller foundations, can be build in pieces and then assembled on site.
    
    Cons
    
    Don't make as nice rustic hunt camp, more expensive to put up need more
    finishing if they are to look like anything, need more carpentry skill.
    
    Some advice, wire and plumb the place. Not so important with a log
    structure, you can always do it latter, but just as well to do it while
    you got the floor and ceiling opened. Insulate the place, especially
    the floor. If you can put in a closed crawl space so much the better,
    you'll find that those cement blocks will be the least of you
    investment and will prove to be well worth it, good foundation, warm
    floor, potential storage space, etc.
    
    Think about your pluming, I find havig hot water in camp on demand to
    be one of the greatest assets. Once stove we had a long time ago had a
    big copper kettle build into the side, it was real handy, always had
    lots of hot water. Devize a system for heating water with
    your wood stove which is the best thing for cooking also and heating. I
    mean the good all wood cooking range. Mount a 45 gallon plastic barrel
    on the roof and fill it with a gas pump.
    
    If you have any specific questions let me know, glad to share my
    building experiences.
    
    My brother just bought a 100 acres with a lake in middle of nowhere and
    we are just starting to build a private road into the place, put up a
    cabin, stock the lake, the guys hunting next to us have a 1000 acres
    and there is another 2000 acres all around with no access. Anyways the
    guys next to us got 12 deer this year and saw about 50. Our main hunt
    camp is on another 100 acres about 10 15 miles from this place and
    while we still get our share of deer we are begining to feel the
    pressure of other hunters moving in. 

      
    
      Thanks again for all the latest replies, they're all great! 
    
    As far as the compression fittings go, the flaring tool is relatively
    inexpencive, and sounds safer, so I'll probably go that route.
    
     .19 - If I decide to build from conventional materials, I will
    look further into your suggestion, in that it sounds practical,
    though I question the amount of usable space built this method as
    opposed to a more conventional method, though the point you make
    about the roof stress, and for that matter the lesser expence in
    exterior finish, in that most of it is the roof,,,hmm....interesting!
    gotta give this more thought!
    
    Responce to .20 - This could get lengthy,so I'll try to keep it
    basic.
      Basically, as I already said, the reason for log construction
    was both expence and ecthetics. I've read 2 good books and I'm 
    currently rereading them before I decide which avenue to take.
    
      Let me just say that I am not a professional carpenter, but I
    have a fairly extencive amount of woodworking tools, a nice size
    work shop, and many years experience working with wood - mostly
    finish work though, but I've thrown together a few sheds, added
    a room onto my house, and taken out/added walls etc.etc.
     In other words I could easily pre-fab a camp to assemble on sight,
    the problem I have is that you can run into a couple thousand $$
    just in materials in no time. This has allways made me hesitant,
    too much to lose to vandalism etc., but I guess you gotta take risks
    in this world if you want to get anywhere!!
    
      On the log cabin side of the equation: I have a couple of chain
    saws, a Honda Big Red ATC that I've used to skid logs etc. I'm also
    thinking about buying a used older Jeep CJ-5/7 in the spring if
    finances/job? permit.
      In the books, they illustrate the use of a 1/2" cable stretched
    between 2 tree tops with a rider pulley to ride on the cable, hung
    from the pulley is a cum-along + chain/grappling hooks or an ice
    block holder to hold the log.  You grab a log from your log pile,
    then pull/roll it along the cable to your building site and set
    your log in place with the cum-along etc.  Have you ever used a
    method like this one?  How well did it work? I've aquired the 1/2"
    cable for this already, just have to buy a couple large turn buckles
    for tensioning the cable.
    
      Also, the other point I have to make is that the land contains
    a mixture of woods, mostly hardwoods of a nice diameter for this
    task.  In reading, I realize that softwoods are desired both in
    insulating characteristics and actual weight etc.  The other problem
    that may occurr is that if built from a mixture of woods, the drying/
    shrinkage rate would vary from one wood type to another etc.
    
      The method illustrated in my books for joining the logs are many,
    but I was leaning towards saddle notching, useing a carpenters 9"
    protractors(??) to gap the fit of the logs to a minimum, allow them
    to dry (shrink) then packing the gaps with insulation, tacking in
    chicken wire, then mortaring the joints. ( hopefully after shrinking)
    
      Could you give me any opinions on any methods I've mentioned,
    and also, Do you think that useing these hardwoods would be practical
    or impractical, based on your experience?
    
                   Thanks again, Jeff
    

    Re:  Compression fittings
    
    A few replies back there was mention of someones father using
    Swagelok fittings on hazardous gas at IBM...  Well kiddies...
    
    Swagelok fittings are NOT compression fittings, they are tube
    fittings that form a leak tight seal by transmitting their torque
    axially rather than rotary.
    
    Also, they would be cost prohibitive.  The average price for �"
    brass fittings is around $8.50 each.  These little suckers are
    extremely reliable and the user pays for that reliability.
    
    Standard compression fittings that you pick up a the local hard-
    ware store aren't worth the brass they are made out of and I for
    one wouldn't waste my time installing them.  In my younger days
    with less experience, I tried using them and every damn one leaked.
    
    Also, most local building codes require flared fitting on gas lines.
    
    They are good for gas fittings as well as water fittings and for this
    home owner, thats what I always use.
    
    Happy building,
    Jealous,
    Greg

    
    My mistake! I thought the compression fittings *were*
    the same thing as swageloks. I've never used the compression
    fittings but I saw them in a store one day and they look
    just like swageloks. They were individually packaged so I 
    couldn't look at them closely. 
    
    *Are* they that expensive!? I guess I'd use a flare
    tool too before I'd spend that kind of money. 
    
    Jb_whose_deercamp_should_have_gold_tubing_to_go_with_his_$17.00_worth_of
      Swagelok_fittings.

    Re 21.
    
    What kind of hardwood are we talking about her, maple oak, birtch,
    beech.
    
    What size of cabin are you looking at. That must be some ATC to be able
    to pull out good size hardwood logs. I have broken a few axles on my
    LandRover dragging some fair size logs around. If you are going to use
    the JEEP get some snap links for your chain, JEEPS have a way of
    ripping their frames appart if you hook them to something that is too
    big. That cable a chain business sounds pertty good, provided you have
    a couple of handy trees, which I assume you do otherwise you would not
    have mentioned it. I have always build on open sites and so I used
    copule of poles leaning agaist the log wall and a cable tied to the
    topmost log on the wall then around the log that you want to roll up
    and to a vehicle that just pulls. Up comes the log with minimum fuss.
    
    I have used the saddle method for my joints with a compass, Its the
    easiest. Just make sure you are making the cuts on the underside of the
    log and then rolling it on top of the below log, not like some idiots
    that I ahve seen the whack out a saddle in the top of a log and then
    roll the next log into it. The joint will rot over the years.
    
    I use insulation and stucco mesh cut into appropriate width to hold the
    mortar. I use white cement (MEDUSA) with ground white marble. Hard as a
    rock. does not shrink and is brilliant white. Costs more but is well
    worth it. The first cabin we put up has been up fifteen years and nver
    needed re-chinking.
    
    Do you have any poplar? It's light easy to work and if done properly
    will last 50 to 60 years quite easilly. I would have never believed it
    until last year when I have seen some poplar log houses and they were
    holding up quite well. Don't however, under any circuimstances use
    poplar logs for floor beams or roof beams or any other beam/load
    structures. Wall are just fine.
    
    Let us know how you are making out.
    
    Les

    
    
      Thanks for the reply back Les .24, I am also familiar with the
    method that you mentioned, using a ramp to roll the logs up. Sounds
    like the easiest method.
      The hardwood types I'm speaking of are Maples, Oaks, Ashes, and
    Poplars. I'll have to go up and start marking trees to cut right
    after the black powder season is over here in Mass. Dec 17-19.
    
      As far as the ATC goes, I too was amazed at how big and long a
    log that little thing can pull, as long as its not pulling up too
    much of an incline.  I made a skidding pan from 1/2 of a 55 gallon
    drum, using the front like a toboggon to smoothly carry the log
    over rocks etc. To make it easier on the ATC I'm going to try to
    make a strap-on trailer, kinda like the way they haul telephone
    polls. This might also improve my up-hill pulling ability.
      The cabin dimensions I had in mind were 20'x25', just big enough
    to be practical and not too crowded for a group of hunters etc.
    
      ?? About Cabin designs? I'm going to carry my walls up maybe to
    9' or 10' or so before I start forming the gables. This will make
    the loft/sleeping area above roomier and more practical to bunk
    more people.    What type of roof design do you favor? Do you prefer
    rafter design from logs, or do you prefer Purlin design?   Are there
    any real advantages as far as the ease of building one type over
    the other etc.  I was kinda leaning toward Purlin design, running
    1"x8" T+G pine boards vertically over them, then building a basic
    box frame from 2"x6"'s  or 2"x4"'s, insulating, then sheating with
    plywood/shingling etc.
    
      Also, do you have any other suggestions for roofing other than
    using conventional shingles?  Have you ever used any of that corregated
    board that they use on barns ocasionally? ( can't think of the name)
    
        Thanks for all the responces and the advice from all so far,
    they'll come in handy in the very near future.
    
                          << Jeff >>

    Here in Colorado Snow country Alot of the buildings use corragated
    steel for roofs. and the roofs have a pretty steep pitch. There
    must be some advantage to using it over shingles.
    
    JC

    HI,
    
    I am not familar with the term "Purlin", I think I know what you mean,
    but am not sure. I have used mostly log rafters, it's cheaper. As far
    as that goes, corrugated metal roofing goes well with this type of roof
    design. All you have to do is get the rafters in place and fasten them
    to each otehr with 1x3 or 1x4 strapping spaced every 16 to 24 inches,
    depending on how strong you want the roof, level the strapping with
    shims between the rafters and strapping and lay the metal roof. Voila,
    you have a roof that will outlive any shingle roof. If you can spare a
    bit more cash, you can get the colored sheeting. Nothing dresses up
    your new cabin like a nice new red roof. On the inside, if you want a
    cathedral ceiling type just strap with 2x4, insulate, here extra cash
    comes in handy to get 2or 3 inch styrofoam, and put up your ceiling
    material of choice. If your rafters are nice and hefty.the 2X4 add
    onther 1.5" you could use six inches of standard glass insualation.
    Make sure you install a vapour barrier, before you put your ceiling
    material, there will not be a lot of air space with this type of roof
    and you do not want a lot of condenstation.
    
    As far as logs go, I would go with the poplar, its straighter, lighter,
    and easier to work. Properly layed and treated will more that likely
    outlive both of us. I have never gone over seven eight log walls. It
    starts to become a life threatining situation messing with 1000lbs
    pieces of wood at those hights. We have put up a two story affair a
    decade back, but made the second story frame.
    
    Let us know when you start.
    
    Lesf

    
    
      Hi Les,
             Explanation: Purlins are logs layed into the gable ends
    at regular (every so many feet) intervals that run the length of
    the cabin.  Using this method you don't need rafters, in that the
    purlins carry the roof weight across the length of the cabin.
      There again, as you mentioned earlier, working with long, heavy
    logs that high off the ground is very dangerous!
    
      Well, the plan is to hunt Dec. 17-19 black powder for deer, then
    the following Sat. or Sun. its off to the land to start dropping
    trees and peeling bark etc.  Looking forward to it!
    
                       << Jeff >>

    Yo,
    
    Purlin, now I undestand. I guess you have to limit the span or use
    rafters at some spacing or use some good sized logs. Nw that you
    described it, I have seen in some barn constructions where the purlin
    were acutally thick boards and wide spread rafters were used for
    structural strength then on with the sheet metal.
    
    How did the blackpowder hunt go? Chopping down those poplars I suppose?
    
    Les

    
    Howdy,
          In reply to .29 - the black powder hunting went unsuccessful,
    though I learned that predator calls tend to make deer uneasy, and 
    leave their nearby bedding areas. :-) Unfortunately when I spotted 
    it moving away from where I disturbed it, it was about 100 yds. away
    and moving through some brush, as a result, no shots taken.
    
       I finally went up to attempt to work on my cabin, but left too late
    in the day, etc. etc.   As a result, only a couple trees got dropped.
    
    In taking a careful look at the trees up there, there appears to be an
     abundance of beach trees, most pretty straight and a nice size, but it 
    might be tough finding them 30'+ of trunk size before they tend to Y
    out at the top.   I also noticed more pine trees then I first realized.
    
      The only problem with them is that they are too large at the base
    which means I'll have to drop them and use the middle - top of the
    tree.  Sounds like more work, but oh well!  This Sunday I'm going back
    up, but leaving earlier in the morning, leaving the kids home, and
    taking more chain saw gas.  Helps starting the camp fire when your
    freezeing your @#$% off!!  :-)
    
      I'll post my progress as I go here, which hopefully will be better 
    than my first attempt.
    
                            << Jeff >>

    
    	
    
    	Does anyone know of a source for log "lean-to" plans?  I would like
    	to put up one or two small (10'x10'x6' max) lean-to's in the back
    yard.  I was thinking of just using a set of shed plans, but am not
    	sure of any log construction techniques/tools that I would need.
    
    	I don't need anything as fancy as you all have been talking about
    	in this file-mainly a three-sided roofed over structure to keep
    	the wind/rain off when I'm out in the woods.
    
    		Thanks
    
    		Chuck
    

    I need some advice concerning propane lights in my camp.  My camp has
    three propane lamps all fed by lines from a gas cylinder in the storage
    shed.  The problem with them is that just as soon as I put a new mantle
    on any of the lights, about 1/3 or so of that new mantle turns black
    and stays that way.  It doesn't get progressively worse, but it does
    cut down on the amount of light thrown by the lamp.  I've disassembled
    each light, cleaned the jet, looked for spider webs in the tubes,
    adjusted the amount of air being mixed with the gas, but all to no
    avail.  The light fixtures are made by Humphrey.  For the mantles I
    typically use standard Coleman lamp mantles and follow the same
    instructions as I would use for a Coleman lamp.  The only thing I can
    think of is that maybe there's a different mantle than I should use.
    
    Anyone run into similar problems and if so, what was the solution?
    Thanks in advance.
    Pete
    

	A friend of mine has a camp with gas lights and he found the
	same problem... There is another "mantle" that should be used,
	but I'm not sure which one it is ;-) I believe it is a similar
	design to the ALLADIN type mantle (stiff) instead of a "soft"
	sock-type....


					~Mike~

    I have Humphrey lights, and the mantle they use are different than the
    colemans. Mine are pre-attached to a metal ring (poor description) that
    I simply twist onto the ceramic mantle holder. I know that there also
    are tie-on mantles for some models, but I don't have those. I do think
    they may be different from the Colemans though. If I was having a
    problem with my Humphrey light, I'd try a Humphrey mantle.

                   Are you burning them before you use them? The ones we
    use come in box attached to a porcelin ring that sets in the lamp and
    then is given a quarter turn to lock into place.

    RE: last three
    
    Yup, I'm burning them first.  I think the previous two replies might be
    on the mark.  I'm familiar with the hard vs. soft mantles.  That could
    be my problem.  If I remember correctly, the hard mantles have a finer
    mesh to them.  Won't hurt to try them out anyway.  Thanks to all for
    the advice.
    
    Pete
    

    
    Nope. The different mantles is not your problem. I burnt holes
    in the (Humphrey) ceramic type mantles the second time I lit the lamps.
    (BTW, use a match, not a butane lighter. The lighter's fumes
    being "sprayed" from the lighter will disintegrate the mantles.)
    
    So, instead of paying $2.00 per mantle, I bought the Coleman mantles
    (2 for 50�) and haven't had a problem yet. They're cheap, compatible,
    and they last forever. The Humphrey manual says that special mantles
    number xyz123 (Coleman) are compatible but I've yet to have problems
    with the generic Coleman Lantern mantles.....
    
    
    Jon

    I just came across this note, so I thought I would put my two cents
    worth in.  My husband and I bought a few acres in the Sierras
    (California) eight years ago in a fairly remote area, with the
    intention of building a year 'round home when he retired from the Navy. 
    In the meantime, we wanted to be able to camp there comfortably (out of
    the weather).  Power and phone are run to the property line but we have
    chosen not to connect because what we built is not considered a
    dwelling.  We checked with the county for the largest outbuilding that
    could be built without a lot of permits, red tape, etc.  100 square
    feet is the max and that is what we built.  My husband prebuilt the
    walls - 2 x 4 framing - in our garage and prebuilt all the roof
    trusses.  We built the foundation platform in one weekend, which
    consisted of cement piers, floor joists and plywood.  Then the next
    weekend, we hauled up the walls.  The tip up construction was a breeze
    and we brought up a generator for any electric saw cutting that needed
    to be done - but that was minimal.  Following weekend, the roof went
    up.  Total time - 3 weekends.  Can't remember how much $.  WE sheathed
    it with that plywood siding everyone uses out here in the mtns and used
    standard roofing shingles.  It was a little 8 x 8 deck and the roof
    overhangs almost the entire deck, so the deck stays snow free -
    usually.  The actual floor size is 8 x 12 and we divided the first
    floor about 3/4 back and in the back "room" is a shower stall (never
    connected - we use a galvanized tub :*)) and the portapottie and an old
    dresser which we store canned goods, etcs. in.  In the front "room" is
    a small table, two directors chairs and a counter which has the sink
    and a propane camp stove on it.  The kitchen water goes into a 5-gallon
    jug which we use to water trees (we only use Camp Suds, Biodegradable). 
    The door is a 6 foot sliding glass door, so we get plenty of light, in
    addition to two other small windows, which are covered with a wood
    shutter when we are gone.  At the end of the counter is a ladder to
    access a loft area, which actually sleeps four people quite
    comfortably.  We use LLBean's egg crate mattresses and sleeping bags. 
    There is another window in the loft, plus a vent screen.  For heat, we
    use either a kerosene heater (really cold) or a small propane heater if
    not too cold.  For venting, we open the back window an inch or so and
    then also the loft vent (get a good fresh air flow that way).  As I
    said, the stove is just a two burner camp stove, running off a 5 gal.
    propane bottle - nothing fancy.  For lights, we use a combination of
    Alladin lamps and 12 volt camper lights, which are run off a deep cycle
    battery.  That battery runs three lights and a small b & w tv for four
    weekends before we take it home and boost the charge.  Battery sits
    outside under the deck and my husband ran the wiring under the cabin.
    The toilet has always been a problem because we didn't want to have to
    install a septic system at that site because the actual building site
    is a good distance away.  So we take the bottom half home and dump it. 
    Not too inconvenient.
    
    For security, in addition to the shutters over the windows, we made a
    bi-fold wood door that goes in front of the slider.
    
    That has worked very well for us, year round, for the past eight years. 
    We are now in the process of building a *real house* up there and will
    probably turn the cabin into a guest cottage.
    
    BTW, last weekend when we were there, *14* deer came waltzing right
    through our proposed house site!
    
    Cathy Koos Breazeal
    NOW:  Santa Clara, CA
    SOON:  Volcano, CA