Conference vicki::boats

Didn't read the article. If I was the owner's insurance agent, I'd ask 
him and the crew the questions you asked. Perhaps the owner is in financial 
trouble? It would be interesting to know how close the rescuers were 
when they sank. This story reminds me of the sinking of some huge 
(>100') sportfisherman in more or less calm conditions not too long ago.

Of course, there could also be a perfectly reasonable explanation.

Alan

    Jim, I haven't read it yet but it sounds kinda strange.  I read
    somewhere (maybe in these notes?) that if you really are in danger of
    sinking because the bilge pumps can't keep up, cut the water inlet hose
    for the engine cooling water down where it connects to the thru-hull
    fitting then rev the engine and head for shore.  The engine cooling
    pumps pump a pretty high volume and could at least get you home.  I
    keep one of the tapered wooden plugs that you can buy to jam in the 
    thru hull fitting handy in case I ever have to use this technique and I
    need to plug the thru hull fitting.
    Wayne

    I don't suppose they were behind on their payments?

    Herald article said they had a fuel line problem and the engines died
    first.

    Maybe the boat had thru-hull shut-offs and the crew didn't know they
    were closed until it was too late..... Seems unlikely though.
    
    JC
    

    I read the article too.  One has to remember that newspaper writers are
    usually not experts many of the topics they cover.  "Sinking via water
    through the scuppers".  There is missing information here.  It may be
    that the scuppers couldn't keep up with boarding seas and water got
    below through poorly designed deck fittings or via an open door or
    hatch.  I 'hate' articles that are written poorly like that.  Just
    enough information to make one curious.
    
    Charlie... good idea to use the engine cooling water inlet hose to help
    pump the bilges.
    
    Jeff

    
    If enough water got into the cockpit, that is enough to 
    lower the transom, then its possible that "sinking could ultimatley
    be caused by the scuppers"
    
    I realize that this is not highly probable, but possible.
    
    JIm

    Good piece of info regarding the plyg for the raw water intake -- I'm
    going to get two -- In the Navy, I believe they were called Fids -- Any
    idea where I can get some (Generic answers please -- I'm from Michigan
    and don't plan on going to MA to get the things.)
    
    Dennis

    Geez, I think you would just make the things.  Maybe they are available
    but I havn't seen any in marine hardware stores.  Or, maybe you could
    get a wood shop to make a few for you.  All you would need is a wood
    lathe.
    
    Jeff

I don't find the story hard to believe. IMO most production fiberglass boats are
only a few waves from sinking. Many boats don't have water tight decks. Only two
small scuppers. Only one pump that many people don't test regularly. Add to the 
above a dead engine, side to or stern into the wind drift and its all over.

The cooling hose trick is a good idea for water coming through the bottom of the 
boat, but how are you going to get to the hose with a ton or so of water on the
deck.

Steve

    Bilge pumps help but don't count of them.  The volume of water even a
    large pump can handle compared to the volume of water which can come in
    though a hole in the hull or down through broken hatches don't even 
    compare.  A 6 x 6 " hole in the hull would overcome any normal pump(s)
    a boat would carry.  Not that pumps are useless, but they sure won't
    handle a LARGE volume of entering water.
    
    Jeff

    I bought mine from the Boat/U.S. catalog.  Very cheap.  There were two
    sizes, small (for 1.5 --> 2 " ??) and large.  They could certainly be
    made by anyone with access to a wood lathe.
    
    My boat is small.  I could find my intake hose when it was under water
    with no trouble at all.  If your boat was larger, you might have
    trouble finding the hoses if submerged to cut them.  The idea is that
    this is a severe, temporary solution that should only be used in a dire
    emergency, like you hit a rock and put a hole in your hull.  The type
    of emergency that either you act real quick and cut the hose before it
    gets too submerged or you unpack the life boat and get out.  You
    certainly can't wait till the point that the engines are dead because
    they are under water.
    Wayne

    
      And a boat with a sealed deck with scuppers will have a pump in the
    *bilge* but that won't help if a big wave comes over the stern! What do
    you do with 1000 gallons of water on the *deck*, two small scuppers and
    a pump that would take 15 or more minutes to pump it out but that isn't
    even in the same space!? Next wave, 1000 more gallons..... wouldn't
    take long to do in even a big sport boat.
    
    					Kenny
    

    I towed a 29 foot wooden boat in that was taking on water about a
    month ago. The stering skeg had broken off and water was comming
    in fast. The bigle pump was on full time but losing ground.
    I had the boat in tow and the coast gaurd came in with some
    serious pumps and had the boat above its water line in no
    time.
    
    Bruce

    Yup, right Bruce, glad they could save it.
    
    When you see an add for a 3600 gal per hour bilge pump it sound
    impressive.... 3600 gallons an hour... what a leak THAT would be.
    
    A flow rate of 6 gallons per minute adds up to 3600 gals per hour.
    A GARDEN HOSE puts out about 6 gallons per minute.  So when you think
    about that impressive number its like having an outflow of a garden
    hose from your bilges.  Sure wouldn't take a big leak to over come
    that.
    
    Jeff

    
    
    Jeff, i think you added an extra zero.
    
    6x60=  360 gals. per hour.
    
    JIm

    Yup, right.  Oh well my point isn't as glaring but most of the 'big'
    marine bilge pumps in catalogs only pump 5 to 10 gals per minute which
    isn't much if you have hit a rock.  A 6" X 6" hole a couple of feet
    under water could deliver many many hundreds of gallons per minute
    in excess of what bilge pumps could handle. 
    
    Jeff

    
    
    	This AM in the Globe, there was a report of 2 people lost at sea
    and 1 rescued. It seems that these people left Oak Bluffs to spend the
    day on Martha's Vineyard for the day, and returned that evening.
    
    	On the return trip in the evening, the 13ft (40hp outboard) Whaler
    was struck by a wave and capsized. The woman rescued was found the next
    morning hanging on to a seat cushion. The CG was not sure if there was
    any PFD in the boat or being used.
    
    	Now my question is, what the heck were these people doing on an
    8 mile trip in the open sea, with a 13ft Whaler????? I do not care of
    the Whaler's reputation, to me it sounds like they were a few cards
    short of a full deck. I have heard of people making that trip before,
    without accident, but I thinks that they were very lucky.
    
    
    	Frenchy one who thinks that the ocean is too dangerous to play in
                with a toy boat.
    
    

    When it rains, it pours!
    
    Last weekend on Lake Erie (A Great Lake - For U salt water folks), I
    was listening to a report on the radio of a 35 foot chris going down --
    In the 15 minutes of radio traffic, she was up to her rails in water --
    Boomp, Boomp, Boomp -- Another one bites the dust!
    
    My friend is involved on Marine Emergency Services and has quite the
    ware stories on boats -- The other day, another 35 footer sank at the
    dock into 28 feet of water -- Only thing showing was the tip of the bow
    -- For those of U who have never seen a recovered boat, they ain't
    pretty after the rescuers get it back on top.
    
    One of the boats he salvaged is a 32 foot Trojan -- The Port engine
    caught fire and burned up the port side of the aft cabin.  The coast
    guard (Canadian) put the fire out and in the process, sank the boat --
    Put too much water into her!
    
    Anyway, the boat is now considered a "Dead Boat."  The reality is that
    for about $5,000 she could be back in the water (Sweat equity is free).
    
    Soo, I was thinking -- "Do I wanna?"  Then I remembered my First mate
    telling me that if I ever want to redo another boat, I'll need a new
    wife -- Hmmmm -- Such a tough decision>
    
    Dennis

��    	Now my question is, what the heck were these people doing on an
��    8 mile trip in the open sea, with a 13ft Whaler????? I do not care of
��    the Whaler's reputation, to me it sounds like they were a few cards
��    short of a full deck. I have heard of people making that trip before,
��    without accident, but I thinks that they were very lucky.

    Hey, the boat lived up to it's reputation.  It didn't sink.

    The boat was shown on the news last night, looking unscathed,
    tied up at the Falmouth Coast Guard station.  That should
    give the coasties plenty of time for a zero-tolerance search.

    
    RE: .18,
    
    do you mean they left falmouth to go to oak bluffs.
    
    If so they left the cape to go to the vineyard.
    
    To do this, they would have to cross Nantucket sound.
    
    Typically this is no big deal,  A 13ft. whaler is capable of this
    
    trip.
    
    
    Now before you ALL jump down my gunnels, let me expalin.
    
    You need to understand the weather and water conditions,
    
    if they're reasonable shouldn't be a problem, if not don't go
    
    also when its time to leave, if not good you stay.
    
    
    I don't know what the conditions were, but they sure dont
    sound that they were good.
    
    JIm

    The news said that they suspected the boat was travelling at an unsafe
    speed.  They probably flipped the boat.  I believe all 3 of them were
    around 16 years old.  The girl picked up was wearing a PFD.
    
    The search for the other 2 boys was called off.
    
    Mark

re .10:

I think that the problem is more design than construction material or
whether the boat is production or custom. Sportfishing boats are, by
nature, marginally safe at best, most especially in following seas with
their huge cockpits and large glass cabin doors. It clearly wouldn't
take much of a sea to fill the cockpit, break the doors, quickly flood
the cabin, and sink the boat. And if the engines fail, disaster becomes
all too likely (eg, .0). 

It is certainly possible to build production fiberglass boats that are 
(reasonably) safe offshore in heavy weather. I own one, and it has taken 
me from Boston to Maine, Nova Scotia, and Bermuda and back through
fairly rough seas. Problem is, from the viewpoint of most readers of
this conference, it has a mast and sails. The safety and construction
requirements for sailboats racing and sailing offshore provide
considerable insight into what is necessary for safety and, conversely,
into why so many powerboats aren't particularly safe (in my view). Any
well-built sailboat designed for offshore sailing will survive a more
than 90 deg knowdown without difficulty, and many have survived 360 deg
rolls without major damage or losing the mast. 

re the Whaler: Ignorance, inexperience, foolishness, whatever are all too 
often fatal as it was this time. Sure, you can take small boats into 
exposed waters (I wouldn't) without problem, if you are lucky. But the
risks are significant and eventually you won't be lucky. Simply because
someone else has made a particular trip in a certain boat doesn't mean
that it was prudent or safe to do so. The more time I spend on the
ocean, the more dangerous I think the ocean is. 

Alan

    RE: the Whaler
    
    I've heard of people traveling to Catalina Island (~30 miles off the
    coast of Los Angeles) in Whalers and things smaller.  I wouldn't recommend
    (or try it) myself, but it has been done.  The sea has a way of taking
    care of those who do not.
    
    my $0.02
    -Rick 

    The story I read said that they were travelling from Martha's Vineyard
    were they all worked at a marina to Falmouth.  They had the required
    PFD's when they left but could only locate a seat cushion once the boat
    flipped due to high seas.  Their mistake was in choosing to attempt to 
    swim for shore rather than stay with the boat that was drifting with
    the current/wind out of the harbor.  The trip from the island to the
    mainland isn't that far and you can always see the land, but storms do
    hit there fast.  We were on the ferry boat coming back from the island
    a few years ago.  It was nice when we departed and nice when we reached
    Falmouth but in between a passing thunderstorm really kicked up the
    swells.
    Wayne

    40 Hp on a 13 ft whaler would really make it move!  If the seas were at
    all rough (as they apparently were) it would be EASY to flip.
    
    The area they were in is exposed, they went at night with a boat
    overpowered for the conditions.
    
    I am not suprised they got in trouble.  Sixteen year olds tend to feel
    they are immortal and they would probably push the limits... too far
    in this case.
    
    
    Jeff

    i doubt very much that  40 hp is over powered for a 13ft. whaler.
    
    its also my undersatnding that one of the lads had extensive amount
    of time on the water. Obvioulsy something went wrong, but it doesn't
    seem as tho it was carelessness.
    
    From what i understand the 2 boys left the vessel and decided to
    swim ashore. I think we can all agree this was not a good idea.
    
    JIm

    	The B.I.A. rating for a 13' Whaler is 40 hp.
    
    						B.C.

    Geez.  40 Hp on a 13 footer.  Well, when one sees 16-18 footers with
    225 Hp that puts it in perspective.  Everything is relative.  That
    Whaler is little bigger than a pram... with 40 HP no less.  BIA
    ratings not withstanding it seems like alot of power for a small boat.
    
    They were going out at night... which helps stack the odds against
    them, and, they were crossing a relatively open body of water with a VERY
    small boat.  It may not have been outright dumb... but I sure think
    they were pushing the limits a bit.
    
    Jeff

    Jeff, the article I read said that it was daytime.  They stayed with
    the boat for awhile until darkness was a few hours away.  At that time
    they decided that they still had time to swim for shore but if they
    stayed with the boat, they would drift farther out to sea and wouldn't
    be found.  Big mistake!  They probably found the boat before they found
    her a half mile from shore.
    Wayne

    I think the biggest mistake the kids made was that they were not
    wearing their PFDs.  A lot of damn good it did them to have the PFDs
    stashed on board.
    
    I do a fair amount of fishing rough water in a small boat.  When doing
    so, I don't depend on getting to the PFD AFTER an emergency.
    
    Mark,
    

    Good point!!

    Ok on the daytime, time of the accident. Yup, I agree putting the PFD
    on after the fact may be too late.
    
    I still think 40 HP on a boat little bigger than a pram creates alot of
    speed for a light boat......  excess speed in rough conditions may well
    have caused the flip and the size of that engine didn't help.  I can
    just see that boat come off a swell, catch air and another wave... and
    bam upside down.
    
    Jeff

    re: .23 (Alan Berens on seaworthiness of sportfishing boats).
    
    Alan, as usual you are making me nervous (I know it's your job :-).
    
    In the last 10 years a huge number of small to mid size (20-30')
    offshore fishing boats have been sold not only with huge cockpits, but
    with full walkarounds or center consoles.  Hence on these boats there
    is no place, forward or aft, that a wave can break over the boat
    without winding up inside the boat.  My assumption is that either this
    doesn't happen very often in practice and/or the scuppers (or pumps if
    it winds up in the bilge) take care of it.  Or possibly that fact that
    such boats normally have foam floatation keeps waves taken on from
    getting the stern so far down that a losing battle results.
    
    If it is not the case, many of us are going offshore on a regular basis
    in "marginally unsafe" boats, as you state.  
    
    Are any of you other fishing boat owners worried about this?

��this conference, it has a mast and sails. The safety and construction
��requirements for sailboats racing and sailing offshore provide
��considerable insight into what is necessary for safety and, conversely,
��into why so many powerboats aren't particularly safe (in my view). Any
��well-built sailboat designed for offshore sailing will survive a more
��than 90 deg knowdown without difficulty, and many have survived 360 deg
��rolls without major damage or losing the mast. 

    Really?  Can I ask Mike Plant about this?

    I heard on the news this morning that the ever-friendly
    coasties had to help out an 80' sailboat taking on water
    TWO MILES OFF CUTTYHUNK.   

    
    
    Well if we're all running around in marginally safe powerboats,
    
    or the ocean makes you nervous.
    
            the solution is simple::::
    
                           GET OUT OF BOATING
    
    
    
    
    
    IF YOUR AFRAID OF IT YOUR ONLY LOOKING FOR TROUBLE........
    
    
    Its not the boat its usually the skipper.....
    
    
    I was at cuttyhunk in approx 86 or 87, the forecast was for 15-25
    it turned out to be 52 knot winds for almost 3 days.
    
    Why did this couple have to leave on Sunday to go to work
    on Monday, they left in a 26ft. sailboat. they were found tuesday
    morning 4 miles west of gay head. they both died from exposure.
    
    The boat was found afloat just of Westport Ma.
    
    Wasn't the boat, how about 10-15 ft. seas in buzzards bay.
    
    Wouldn't we all agree it was judgement
    
    
    As for going offshore with a walkaround, who's the half-wit.
    
    
    As for a wave getting in the cockpit of a sportfishing boat,
    
    the only way is to back down into one...
    
    JIm
    

re .34:

Clearly, the fishing boats you describe are safe the vast majority of 
the time. The difficulty is, in my view, that once in a while all the 
wrong events happen. I have seen the wind go from near calm to over 50 
knots and the seas from near calm to very rough in just a very few 
minutes (in a squall not far off Provincetown). Perhaps not too 
dangerous for a 20' to 30' foot open fishing boat, unless of course the 
driving rain and spray drowned the engine(s). 

I think it is foolish not to consider the risks and take proper
precautions. Over the years I've noticed that, apparently, more
sailboats carry liferafts than powerboats. I've wondered why. Do the
powerboat folks think that they can outrun bad weather? Certainly
because of their high speed powerboats are more vulnerable if they hit
floating debris, and if their engine(s) fail(s) they are at much more
risk than if a sailboat's engine fails. 

Simple probability calculations are sobering. If the chances of a safe 
fishing trip are 99.9%, there is only a 90% chance of making 100 trips 
safely. If the probability of a safe trip falls to 99%, the probability 
of 100 safe trips is only 37%. 

re .35:

I would not consider Mike Plant's boat a well-built offshore sailboat. 
It is/was a very, very technologically advanced racing machine, and many 
of its go-fast design characteristics are not those any reasonably 
experienced offshore cruising sailor would choose. The boat was a new 
design built as lightly as possible using essentially untested 
construction techniques. The initial and brief testing of the boat 
revealed many flaws that should have been corrected (but weren't) before 
Mike left the US headed to France (a bad but perhaps understandable 
decision). Mike died when his boat capsized after the ballast keel fell
off. Keels do not fall off properly designed, built, and maintained
boats. 

And sure, boats, power and sail, large and small, need help from the
Coast Guard all the time. 

re .36:

Sadly both sailors and powerboats all too commonly use poor judgment.

    Jeff, the 13.5 foot Whaler is really two boats, a very heavy lower
    hull, and an equally heavy upper hull.  The six inch or so space in
    between hulls is filled with foam.  They are extremely heavy for their
    size.  They are "unsinkable" in the sense that you can cut one into
    thirds with a chainsaw, and none of the thirds will sink (they used to
    show an ad with a guy doing just this) (kids, don't try this at home 
    ;-) ;-))  
    
    I owned a 14 foot aluminum Sea Nymph that was rated for max 25 hp, a
    much lighter boat.  40 hp doesn't seem out of line to me.  
    
    
    When you are cold and wet, have been in the water for hours, and the
    tide is taking you to Europe, your judgement is impaired.  It is very
    tempting to "swim for it", even though the next tide will bring you in
    anyway.  I'm not sure any of us would have made the right decision
    *under these conditions*, especially because cold water *does* impair
    judgement.  
    
    Teenagers are NOT full grown adults, nor do they think like adults.
    
    Carl

    
    Just for clarity sake, if you fish offshore you" MUST" its the law
    
    carry a life raft.  Alan, ever see the little aluminum boxes on the
    
    bow/foredeck of a sportfisherman, well thats the liferaft.
    
    Also you must carry survival suits.... (one per person aboard)
    
    So says the law.
    
    I don't wonder offshosre for many reasons, one is lack of interest,
    
    but my inflatable is on the bow (inflated) don't want to use it
    
    but its ready to go....
    
    for clarity, the rafts are self inflating.. and not cheap..
    
    as for heavy rain getting the engines on a powerboat wet enought
    
    i doubt it.   most offshore boats have there engines midships,
    
    not out under their cockpits.   
    
    doubt it
    
    I realize what the law says, but i also realize what people do.
    
    Jim
    

    re .-1
    
    Sorry Jim.  You do not "HAVE" to carry a liferaft if you fish offshore. 
    Nor are survival suits, epirbs etc. required.  Those are only
    required if you are fishing "commercially".  All you need to carry is
    the standard CG safety requirements, flare, pfds, fire ext., etc.
    Wether just meeting the CG requirements is prudent or not is subject to
    opinion. 
    
    Joe

re .39:

Relatively few of the non-commercial boats I have seen in the Gulf of 
Maine have liferafts. And I know what they look like -- we've had one since 
1982. And they most certainly are expensive, both to purchase and 
maintain. The annual service cost for our 6-person Avon liferaft is $300
to $500. 

    RE: .38
    	Whalers are actually very light for their size, a 13 ft. weighs
    ~360 lbs., very close to the weight of an aluminum.  In fact, my 15 ft.
    Whaler weighs less than the average stripped 16 ft. aluminum.
    	The hull is also quite thin, hence Whaler recommending that the
    boat -not- be stored on a roller trailer, only on bunk types.
    	Neither the hull or the motor size is to blame...  Too many 
    inanimate objects being blamed for doing things to people already.
    
    	The only intelligent thing to do would be to stay with the boat. 
    It won't sink.  Period.  In a strong outgoing tide you'd be a fool to
    try to swim even a short distance to shore.
    						B.C.

    Not to change the subject(please reroute this to the apropriate note
    if it exists), but I'd like to know the recommendations for ocean
    boating.  I have a BW Dauntless with a 60hp outboard that will be used
    mostly for fresh water.  I would like to take it fishing in the ocean
    once in a while however and would like to here the limitations
    of this given boat size as follows:( FWIW, the Duantless has a new 
    hull design somewhat like the Outrage).
    
    length  15"1"
    beam     6'4"
    weight   730lbs
    transome height 20"
    draft    9.75"
    
    
    The design includes scuppers and a center console.
    
    MAximum weight capacity is 1300 lbs.
    
    What is the maximum wave height that this boat would safely handle?
    From my experience with it so far, at part throttle the front end rides
    up fairly high and it takes really rough water the best at this pitch.
    
    Dale
     

    Ok on the Whaler comments.  "Heavy" is a relative term I suppose.
    
    Yes, I agree, any of use dumped into the cold ocean like that would do
    well to keep our heads and not swim for it.
    
    The trick is to keep one's head when under heavy stress like that.
    
    Jeff

    Dale,
    
      That's not the sort of question that has a exact answer. A lot of it
    depends on you or whoever is piloting the boat. Its probably possible
    to swmp that boat in 1 foot waves *if you really try!*. Someone with a
    lot of experience who is very good and very careful may be able to get
    it home in 5 or 6 foot waves. A VERY big guess would be that you should
    not go out if the waves are larger than 2 feet and should come in
    *carefully* if they build to larger than 3 feet.
    
    				Kenny

I have taken water over the bow of my 22' angler walkaround three times.  Each
time was due to skipper error (me).  I have since learned how to avoid this
scary situation (it's amazing how much water is in a wave).

Twice I was cominging into the mouth of the merrimack and there were 3-4 footers
 I was going too fast and went over one wave and thru the next.  I have since 
learned how to ride in on the back of the wave.

I believe that some of the problem is the design of my boat.  The bow is not
flared enough.

My next boat will have a full bow and cabin for a variety of reasons.  One of
them being waves.

Gordon

    
    RE: .43
    
    I would recommend you stay within sight of land, possibly 2 miles
    off any shoreline should be fine. 
    
    If the wind picks up my advice would be to get closer to land
    
    say 1/4 mile.  Its not the sea that is the warning but the increase
    
    in wind speed, a change in its direction, say from south to north,
    
    or a seemingly change in air temperature.
    
    Keep an eye to the sky, watching for large black clouds, if
    
    this appears within your sight head for land.
    
    With this size boat and its weight, you need to understand whats
    
    going to happen, if you wait to long you will be part of it.
    
    JIm

    	I'll add to Jim's reply and tell you to be aware of current
    direction and when the tide will change as wind direction in relation
    to tide direction has a lot to do with how rough it is in a small boat.
    
    						B.C.

    I've been staying out of this one, but it's certainly been very
    interesting reading.
    
    I agree with B.C. in .48 wholeheartedly. (I agree with him about 95% of
    the time, anyway.)
    
    I just want to add that another thing to be aware of before you go out
    is what the weather has been doing at sea in the last five days.
    Specifically, it helps to know where the storms have been and what
    direction they moved in. 
    
    It sometimes takes days for the waves from a sea storm to reach the
    proximity of our shores. When they come in, they come in hard
    regardless of what the local atmosphere is up to. I've gone out in calm
    water (well, ok, "gone in" is the more appropriate verb-preposition
    combination) and come out in very rough water. All because the effects
    of a storm a hundred miles away arrived while I was underwater.
    
    FWIW
    
    John H-C

    It is amazing how quickly the weather can change.  I thought that bow
    riders were designed pretty much for lakes.  I am a student Naval
    Architect at Westlawn Marine Institute (should have my diploma in a
    year) and I have learned to look at boats with a different eye that I
    did a few years ago.  Bow riders give the the creeps.  All I can see
    is a boat set up to take waves over the bow... expecially the ones with
    a negative sheer.
    
    I do see people out of Portsmouth on the ocean with bow riders and it
    sort of amazes me that they dare take them out.  But.... if its a nice
    day and all then why not?  Because the weather can change... fast and
    suddenly you are driving a scoop shaped bow into a storm.
    
    Oh well, to each their own.
    
    Jeff
    

    re: .-1
    
    That's why I asked my original question with regard to walkaround
    fishing boats (or worse, center consoles).  These are the biggest
    selling fishing boats under 30' and no one hestitates to take these
    boats semi-offshore (out to 25 nm).  Are we all nuts?
    

    Re: Bowriders
    
    When I was growing up, my dad had a Sea Star bow rider, tri-hull that
    appropriately submarined on several occasions in rough water(from other
    boats, not weather).    He then sold the Sea Star and purchased a 16'
    BW.  Not as smooth or comfortable, but it has never come close to 
    submarining.  Water has come over the bow from the spray of a wave,
    but the boat always follows the water.   Not to argue with ship
    architecture, but I think the design has a lot to do with the
    performance.  As a student, what types of vessels and sizes are taught
    at the Institute?
    
    
    Dale
    

    
    I take my boat (24' GW) out anywhere from 10-40nm, and have been out as
    far as 60nm on occaision.  Only once have I ever gotten myself in a
    situation that concerned me, and that was my own fault for not coming
    in when the weather was up.  I've got an outboard with an open transom,
    so if I take some green water, it just runs out the back.  As long as
    the wind is <= 25kts, and the seas are no more than 3-5 I can handle
    it.  The boat is fine even up to 4-8's, as I can attest from the one
    encounter.  Bottom line is the boat'll take a lot more than the crew,
    and if the boat can take it its a matter of comfort. 
     

    	At least some center consoles are made to get rid of the water
    pretty fast too.  My dads 20' Sea Ox is set up so when a wave comes in
    over the front (yes, it's happened) it flows right out the back.  The
    front partition of the motor well is hinged on the bottom and bungied
    at the top so it flops down when water hits it from the front.
    	I'll also agree with a few back that said -lots- of water comes in
    when a wave comes over!  Anything loose on the floor would have gone
    right out the back too!
    						B.C.

    We are taught to design 'vessels of up to 150 feet' with construction
    materials of fiberglass, wood, or aluminum.  At 150 feet the
    construction typically changes to steel which utilizes different
    fabrication techniques of course.  The calculations for center of
    gravity, metacentric height, form coefficients etc. are the same
    for a ship as a small boat but the building details differ
    considerably.
    
    The bowriders are designed for a family day cruise on a lake with
    the weather pleasant.  IMO if you want to go out offshore on the ocean 
    you have no business doing it in a bowrider if you like staying
    alive.
    
    The ocean has a way of eventually getting around to testing you and
    your boat to your respective limits if you boat enough to give it a
    chance to 'get to you'. Not a case of IF there is a storm, but WHEN.
    
    Someone in this conference keeps saying the longer they live the more
    he has learned not to trifle with the ocean.  I couldn't agree more.
    The ocean is a WILDERNESS and one must treat it accordingly.
    
    When I get my diploma I will design boats with my above statements in
    mind.  A 'Jeff Gilman' designed boat will be the safest boat I can
    figure out how to put together.  No bow riders, no low transom
    sterns, (unless your willing to sign a 'limitation of liability
    waiver'.  Smile.
    
    Some large 'off shore' fishermen designs amaze me.  Low transomes, big
    glass doors (with flat after cabin structure).... and these 40-50
    footers are intended for out-of-sight-of-land fishing!  Amazing!
    Look at what the commercial fishermen run and you will get an idea of
    what you 'should' be out in.  HIGH flared bows, watertight decks and
    rubust construction with rounded superstructure lines to shrug off
    boarding seas.  But the customer is 'always right'.  They often want
    a floating party boat with speed and low cut lines to make fishing
    easy.  Well, fine, but know what your getting into 'out there'.
    
    The commercial party fishing boats which take you out for a day of
    fishing on the ocean often have high bows and watertight decks even
    though they do have a walk around design.
    
    If you want to know whether the boat or ship your on has a safe
    metacentric height (safe stability) estimate the beam of the vessel
    in feet, then count the seconds for the vessel to complete a roll.
    The roll period should be SHORTER in seconds than the beam in feet.
    If its the other way around or equal then the vessel is unstable.
    
    Example. Ship with beam of 30 feet.  The time to complete a 'round
    trip' roll should be less than 30 seconds.  The little old ladies in
    the days of the luxury liners loved the Europen passenger liners
    because they tended to have a slow (read unstable) comfortable roll.
    They didn't like the U.S. ships which had more rigorous safety
    standards and tend to to have a brisk (read stable) uncomfortable
    roll period.
    
    Which type of vessel would YOU like to be out in a storm in?
    
    Puking, or dead?  Smile
    
    Jeff

    This topic has been covered quite well in the prior notes - I'll
    add only a small comment on Boston Whalers - and their much touted
    saftey. 
    
    As the recent events on the cape show, Whalers are unsinkable.  In my
    opinion, this can lead people to assume they are safe boats.
    
    I have some trouble with this conclusion.  I own a 15'super sport.
    I like it a lot, and its gotten a fair amount of use inthe ocean. 
    But there is no way in hell I would take this boat in seas higher than 2'
    or in places with heavy tides. (chatham break, monomomy, woods hole, 
    mouth of the merrimack, etc).  
    
    These boats are more along the lines of a floating platform and there is
    very little to keep one "inside".  These boats are small, runabouts -
    not ocean worthy craft. (well made, fun, pretty, but not grownup boats)
    
    I'm not so sure that Whaler serves the public by its ad campain.
    
    
                                              
    					just my opinion,
    
    
    					Harlan

    
    
    One thing to be careful of here is to generalize Boston Whalers as
    they produce an entire line of boats from 11' to 24'.    I would
    agree with .56 with regard to a 15'ss, but not to a 17' Outrage
    or 17' Montauk.   
    
    Dale
    

    Anyone that goes out offshore that does not respect the ocean is
    nuts. 2 weeks ago I headed out tuna fishing (30 miles out)
    and with 10 left to go I turned around, the 4-6 footers where to
    obnoxious, the boat was happy, I was not thrilled about trolling
    in that stuff for 8 hours. I also hope I never need my survival
    suits, but I sure like having them on board.
    
    Bruce