Conference vicki::boats

Judy,
Wow!  You certainly ask all the right questions, and that's great.  A book
could be written (and has I'm sure) to cover everything.  I suspect that no 
one person here could answer every one of them, but I'm sure your note will 
generate plenty of discussion.  And while waiting for replies you can also 
get answers to alot of your questions by reading through this conference.
You are making the same decisions we all do and many of your concerns have 
been discussed elsewhere in the 700+ topics of the boating conference.

Rick W.

    
    	At the risk of upsetting the moderators by creating yet another
    "I'm a first time boater" note, I'll take a stab at a few of these
    questions. :-)
    
> Is it possible to get inexpensive dockage in nice cruising areas?
    
    	That depends on what you consider inexpensive. On the larger
    lakes in NH $1000 and up seems to be the going rate. Salt water
    is generally by the foot. I'll let the salt water guys comment...
    
> How much of a hassle is it to find and use boat ramps on weekends?
    
	See note # 19.
    
> Trailering a 25-27 footer seems like it would be a real chore.
    
    	In relation to you and your husband the chore of trailering
    a 27 footer as apposed to a 17 footer is probably the same, but
    in relation to the tow vehicle, you are talking a serious truck
    to pull a 27' boat. I don't think even a full size Blazer/Bronco 
    would be up to such a job.
    

> If you are unlucky enough to choose the wrong boat and have to sell it
>    within a couple of years, will you take a bath financially? (Do some
>    boats hold their value more than others?)

	Right now the used boat market is quite bad which adds to the fact
    that anything you sell a year or two after purchasing new, you're going
    to lose money on.
    
    	From reading your note, it appears as if both you and your
    husband lean towards salt water. If this is the case, it's probably
    best to look for a boat suited for such activity. Because of the
    shape of the market there are very good deals on used boats. Your
    best bet may be to find salt water dock space and park your 2-3
    year old boat which someone else took a bath on in it....
    
    	Good luck in your search.....
    
    	Rick

re .0:

There are many aspects of boat buying and owning that are the same 
whether you own a powerboat or a sailboat. See Note 3.4 in the sailing 
notesfile (MSCSSE::SAILING) for a list of the many, many discussions of
boat buying that are in SAILING. You might well find these helpful. 

Alan

PS Owning a boat can be, and is likely to be, very expensive. Be sure 
you feel comfortable with the costs involved before you embark. Selling 
a boat may take much time and be financially painful.

Judy,
One other thing you'll want to consider is to take a boating safety course.
Since you stated that you're both beginners, and are planning on taking up 
to a 25' boat in salt water I can't stress that strongly enough.  And when
you're finished with that, the coastal piloting course probably wouldn't hurt 
either.  Most beginners are oblivious to the dangers, and it's not until 
*after* you've taken the course that you realize how much you need it.


RE: Note 705.2 
>> At the risk of upsetting the moderators by creating yet another
>> "I'm a first time boater" note, I'll take a stab at a few of these
>>    questions. :-)

But Rick, I thought I gave you back your moderator privileges?  8^)

Rick W. 

    Thanks for the quick replies.  I realize that the topics are covered
    elsewhere in this file (I spend 6 hours reading it last night).
    
    We have both taken boating safety courses and have an appreciation for
    what we're getting involved with.  
    
    It's just difficult to weigh the many options and you sometimes wonder
    if you still have your sanity...
    
    Keep the advice coming,
    Judy

    
                  -<a real chore......>-
    Judy,
    
     Here's my 2 cents worth. I presently trailer a 26'
    
    sport cruiser (sleeps 6). It can be a chore for me
    
    because I normally launch and retrieve by myself.
    
    With two people, it's not so bad since you dont have
    
    to be in two places at once. (i.e. on the boat and tow
    
    vehice) That brings us to the next issue. The first
    
    year I had the boat, I used a Ford F150. Unfortunately,
    
    the truck met an early demise due to the strain on the
    
    engine and transmission. My total tow weight for the 
    
    boat and trailer runs in the neighborhood of 7500 lbs.
    
    Pulling that much weight up a wet/slippery ramp requires
    
    either a four wheel drive or a dually setup for traction.
    
    If you're going totrailer a boat in the 25-27' range,I
    
    would recommend finding a 3/4 or 1-ton pickup...preferably
    
    a four wheel drive. If you try to buy a new one, it will
    
    cost a pretty penney (or two). A good used one is your 
    
    best bet. 
    
      Some makes of boat do hold their value much better than others.
    
    Regal, SeaRay, and Four Winns are a good buy while I wuld shy
    
    away from Bayliner. A new 24' Bayliner (sleeps 4) can be bought
    
    for approx. 22,000 around here. While that makes it easier to
    
    get into a cruiser style for the first time, they lose value
    
    rather quickly. The reasons are many and varied. Among them
    
    are workmanship, lack of options, durability of gelcoat etc.
    
    Resale of these is low so youmight get one cheap. But if
    
    ypu decide to sell right away, you'll probably lose. Either
    
    way actually. Go for a quality boat name. If you do lose,
    
    it won't be as bad.
    
     gotta go
    
    
    Andy

    My advice would be to go charter the kind of boats you are thinking
    about. You would gain experience with it and help in deciding if you
    are serious about boating. A popular option in Seattle is timesharing.
    
    No matter what you buy the first time, you'll have two-foot-itis
    in a year.
    
    

    .4
    
    Forgot to mention that I think the coastal piloting course is a great
    idea.
    
    .6
    
    I'm impressed.
    
    .7
    
    We tried to locate charter options without much success.  They seem few
    and far between.  Only one I could find was for a 30-something foot
    Bayliner which is not a boat which we are considering.
    
    Judy

    Judy,
    	
    	  A slightly different tact:
    
    	   On trailering small(ish) boats:  it really provides the maximum 
           flexibility.  Within a reasonable drive you can cruise fresh
    	   water lakes or rivers (cohochuite, whitehall, Qunisigmond,
           charles, merrimack), saltwater bays/rivers on the northshore, 
           the cannal, the cape and Rhode Island.  I've been poking around
           the area for the last six years and havent come close to
           exploring half of easy areas.  (or of correctly spelling many of
           their names)
     
    	   Driving, launching, and loading are fairly simple skills and you'll 
           learn pretty quickly how and when to avoid the popular ramps.   
           There are several good state publications listing fresh and 
           saltwater access points.
    
           If you want to leave your boat in the water - when you're on
           vacation or for other reasons - there's usually a marina or club
           or harbormaster with an available space.   Someplaces do fill up
           and it can get busy, but with a little planning I've never had a
           problem finding a place to keep my boat when on vacation.  In my 
           limited experience, slips at the cape run 100 to 125 per week,
           with mooring considerably cheaper (20-50).   Worse comes to
           worse - keep the boat on the trailer.
    
           On your experience level:   Yes, water is dangerous.  Yes,
           boating mistakes can be expensive.   Yes, you can be lured into
           risky situations without a full apreciation of the danger(s).
           And yes, people can have a great deal of safe fun who dont
           happen to be ex Navy seals or who dont wear a full survival suit 
           equiped with a satalite dish and a lazer printer.  Of all the
           decisions I've made in the recent past, buying a boat was one of
           the best.   My familly and I have have spent many enjoyable days 
           puttering around and I cant think of anything else that we've had
           as much fun with.   I hesitate to write this, but sometimes I
           get the feeling this notes file leaves the impression that
           everyone (except the skiers) involved with boating is grimly
           devoted to a dangerous personal persuit involving thousands of
           dollars of complicated equipment and many humourless hours spent
           defending oneself from nature's many attacks. 
          
    	   In stable weather, a good boat having reasonable safety 
           equipment, piloted by sober adults with an understanding of basic 
           marine procedures is probably safer than driving on route 128.
           And it's a lot more fun.  Take a course, read some books, buy a 
           lot of charts and keep your eyes open.  You'll do fine.
    
                                                            
           On your choice of boat:  I have whaler and have been looking at
           bigger boats including the outrage.  The modified 'v' hull seems
           like a very big advantage.  Yes, you'll rock-and-roll more, but
           in a moderate chop, a sharper hull will help you keep the fillings 
           in your teeth.   Take a test drive before you buy.   
    
    	   It pains me to suggest this, but if you're considering an Outrage, 
           you really should look at the small Grady Whites. (19-21')  I think 
           my next boat wont be a whaler. 
    
    
    
    							best of luck
    
    							  Harlan

    I have had boats for most of my life both power and sail, have built a
    couple, sank several, always done my own work on them.  Half the fun of
    having a boat is maintaining it, a must because half your time is spent
    maintaining it!  I worked up to a 21' offshore racer, 70 mph, rocket..
    which went for $25,000.00 and had to be sold in a hurry.... got
    $7,000.00 from a broker.
    
    My suggestion..... buy small, keep your investment to a minimum until
    you are convinced that you really are a boater...... If you keep your
    boat in good shape you won't lose much in a year or two on a $10,000.00
    investment but you can lose your shirt on a $30,000.00 cruiser.
    
    
    					Good luck.... Gregg

re                       <<< Note 705.9 by DUGGAN::PLUMLEY >>>
>                               -< It can be fun >-

>           as much fun with.   I hesitate to write this, but sometimes I
>           get the feeling this notes file leaves the impression that
>           everyone (except the skiers) involved with boating is grimly
>           devoted to a dangerous personal persuit involving thousands of
>           dollars of complicated equipment and many humourless hours spent
>           defending oneself from nature's many attacks. 
 
	Gee, you seem to think that skiing  *_ISN'T_*  expensive  
	and that we actually have  FUN  getting ourselves hurt (-:, (-:
 
>           equipment, piloted by sober adults with an understanding of basic 
>           marine procedures is probably safer than driving on route 128.

	I'll drink to tha< err, I agree - and most skiers don't drink either.


	Reg {$42.25 for ski_gas this week-end}

    I've been around boats all my life (ok so that's only 26 years)
    and I've lived through the various stages of boating one goes through.
    You know, like this: First there's the 13 foot boat for use around
    the summer cottage.  Then comes the new 16' I/O.  Next comes the 
    desire for deeper water and hence the 19' Deep V.  Then comes the
    desire to be able to weekend on the boat, hence the 27'.  Then the
    cottage gets sold and we need a home on the water.  Voila, the 38'.
    
    Right, well enough background.  Here's what I've noticed.
    The ultimate boat for versatility is the 19' Deep V.  It's trailerable
    (My dad pulled behind his, <gulp> Lincoln).  It's excellent in a 
    choppy sea (read Buzzards Bay or the Broads).  And it has a cuddy 
    cabin to at least brave a night in (or at least use the port-a-potty).
    When we had our 19', we would trailer to Winnie, to Boston, the
    Cape, Newport.  Anywhere there's a ramp (and there's a few good new
    ones springing up all over) you can go.  We had many nice weekends
    cruising around the islands of Boston Harbor.  We took day trips to
    Martha's Vineyard.  We cruised aroun Gloucester, Rockport and
    spent the day at Pickering Wharf.  We waterskied around the Wareham
    river.  In a nutshell, we coverd A LOT of territory with this small
    boat.   1 Vote for a Deep-V trailerable boat.  Oh Yeah, and we had
    an electric Winch and a very user-friendly roller-type trailer which
    made loading and unloading a breeze.
    
    Another thing which is becoming popular on the Cape, is the Rack.
    This is an inexpensive way of storing your boat and having it available
    for use when you want it.  The boat is stored in a vertical rack, 
    similar to a stockroom, and is accessed by a fork-lift type machine
    that the Marina operates.  Now, you obviously can't spend time in the
    boat when it's on the rack, but it saves you from having to trailer
    it some place.  Marina's such as Fiddler's Cove have gone one step
    further.  What Fiddler's did is 1) put their rack INDOORS away from
    the weather and 2) built an absolutely beautiful Clubhouse to use
    when your boat is stored away.  They have bathroom suites (shower and
    toilet), pool table, dining facilities, tv, video, stereo, living
    room.  All of the conveniences of a large yacht.  
    
    Fiddler's Cove Marina is on Buzzard's Bay, a major cruising area.
    I'm not pushing fiddler's (we keep our boat at Kingman) but we took
    a little spin in there last week and got a tour of their facilities
    and saw all this.  Very impressive.  FYI Fiddler's is offering one (1)
    complementary night of dockage and full use of their facilities to
    anyone who is interested in looking at them.
    
    If you think you'll be more into overnight boating, we got a lot of
    use out of the 27' we had.  It was VERY comfortable for weekend
    cruising and was Excellent in the seas.  FYI it was the Regal 27'
    which I believe is now called a 28' Express.  Worth a look.  It'll
    run you in the $50-60K range.  Rental dockage is still available on
    the cape at least, if you look hard enough (or talk to an insider
    like myself).
    
    Well, enough gibberish.  That's my $.02.
    
    John
    

    
    Oh yah, and if you go the weekender route, if you can sleep on it,
    then you can declare it as a second home and deduck the interest.
    Every little bit helps.

	Judy, I can appreciate your position.  Two years ago we moved up
from a 16 foot I/O trailer boat to a 34 sport fisherman.  For 6 years the
I/O filled our needs (lake Winni, Quinsig, Boston Harbor, etc).  As our
family grew our needs started to change (it wasn't worth the hassle to trailer,
wait at the ramps to get in and out etc., and we also needed a tax deduction).
For a couple of years we looked and discussed (the only way I could get my
wife to go to boat shows was to take her to dinner, and we were both putting
on weight).  We started at a 25 foot trailerable, tax deductible, boat like
a Larson DC250, which my wife argued was to confined and would just sit on
the trailer on the driveway because I would have an excuse like to much traffic
or crowded ramps.  She said why don't you just bite the bullet and get a boat
that stays in the water.  So, we started looking at 28 footers (Cruisers, etc.).
They were nice, but tight, what if the kids come down, etc.  The last thing
I needed was to buy a boat, find it to small and pay another brokerage fee
the next year again to move up.  So a 34 it was.  Now I wish I'd gotten a 40.
Never satisfied I guess.
	I would offer you a couple of suggestions in addition to the excellent
advise already offered:

	1. Check out the areas you are interested in.  Down in our area
	   (Fairhaven) Brightman's Marina is starting to rent boats.
	   You could rent a 16 Mako and see if you really like Buzzards
	   Bay with the 15-20 knt SW afternoon breezes.  You can also rent
	   from several places around Wiers Beech on Winni.

	2. If you're in it for the first time, buy a smaller used boat
	   (starter) which you can get most of your money back on, which
	   you won't feel bad about when the wind catches it and the dock
	   scrapes the side, and which you can trailer to find out what
	   you enjoy the most. 

	3. Then decide where you want to boat and what size/kind of boat
	   fills your need.

	If I can offer any more help from my experience send mail or call.

	Rick

    This brings up an interesting point with regard to boat type vs
    expected conditions of use.
    
    I have a 17' bowrider which has served me well but with the cold water
    on the Maine Coast and the desire to get a bit farther offshore, I'm
    looking to eventually move up to something bigger and drier.  So I
    bring home this brochure on a nice high-freeboard 19' cuddy and my wife
    asks why I would get a bigger boat that seats fewer people than the
    bowrider.   She's right - I can get four adults + 4 small kids (a common
    situation for us) in the bowrider easily, whereas in the cuddy, two
    people either get to sit below, or stand, or sit on the bow (while
    underway???!), or I get to carry on two chairs (?!).
    
    The cuddy has the appeal of protected storage plus a head and
    private area for changing clothes or stowing sleeping kids.  But I
    can't see anyone wanting to sit down there by default.  
    
    This seems like a pretty common upgrade situation.  What have others
    done?   They do make larger bowriders but you don't see a lot of them
    (particularly in Maine).  I presume you'll get some additional
    protection with the larger boat but it still looks like it could get
    wet.
    
    Or do you "skip a size" and go to a 21' cuddy where the open area
    is in fact as large or larger than the 17' bowrider, and stick on some
    portable seating for a couple of kids, thus giving you the best of
    both (for a price, of course)?
    

    
    	Jim,
    
    	If you go to a I/O setup, 17-21 ft cuddy, this  will give you
    	enough sitting room for 6. You have 2 sets of back-to-back seat
    	which will sit 4 and in the rear you would have 2 seats, 1 on each
    	side of the housing for the engine. With an outboard you lose the 
    	back seats. This is a general statement, each boat can be
    	configured differenly, in my boat I can only sit 5 because I have 
    	a swivel chair instead of the back-to-back on the drivers side.
    
		Hope this helps,
    
    		Mike

    Actually, many outboard 17-19' bowriders (and cuddies) also have two
    seats on either side of the transom.   So I get 6 in the cockpit plus
    2 or 3 kids in the bow.
    
    The swivel chair does in fact lose you another seat. The 19' cuddy I
    looked at had an acre of floorspace behind the driver's seat which
    would have been better put to use as another seat.  You also lose the
    ability to make a second recliner on the driver's side which is sure
    nice to goof off and relax on at anchor.  In my opinion in this size
    boat, the swivel seat is a "make you feel like a captain", rather than
    a practical feature.

    Jim - maybe you should look at some other *brands* of boats. Some
    cuddy-cabins are set up for fishing; In which case there are 2 small
    seats in the cockpit and small or NO seats at the stern. There are 
    MANY different layouts available, but NOT necessarily from the same 
    manufacturer.
    
      In MANY family-type setups, there are two back-to-back seats up
    front and a *bench* seat across the back. Some boats even have
    wrap-around bench seats in the back which would allow even a couple
    MORE people to sit down. In a 19' boat with 2 back-to-backs and
    a rear bench, 7 people should be able to sit down, maybe more if
    you put kids on the bench seat. 
    
       Different manufacturers do it different ways, check out as many
    as possible as you'll see just how MANY *different* seating
    arrangements are offered!
    
    					Kenny
    

    I have a 20 foot Four Winns with a small cuddy.  As well as having the
    usual seatting for 6 on deck thier are 2 small seats in the cuddy
    therefore, giving you the seatting for 8 that you need.  Also since the
    passger seat, on deck, opens too a bed you use that to set all the 
    children.  I really enjoy the cuddy for dry storage and keeping the little 
    ones out out of the sun and weather when necessary.
    
    Good Luck
    R

    
    
                   -<RE: .19>-
    
    I have my doubts about anybody that boats
    on Oneida Lake. Is that really a lake
    or a big puddle??????
    
    Andy

    I have an Invader V197 cuddy.  It has two back to back seats plus
    seating for three in the back.  On of it's advatages are that the
    two seats on either side of the engine cover are fully removable
    giving plenty of room for fishing or other moving around.  In addition,
    there is a deep well inside the cuddy which allows at least two
    shorter people (as in deck rats) to sit up inside of the cuddy.
    
    mjs
    

    It may be a big puddle but it's better than 
    boating in a glorified river!!!

    
    Moved by moderator
    ------------------
    
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Note 1142.0       suggestions for 17-19' boat.. boat show/ etc?       No replies
YEOLD::PROVENCAL                                     20 lines  10-JAN-1994 15:37
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    My husband and I have begun thinking about purchasing a 
    boat for next summer.  We heard that there is a boat show this
    weekend in Worcester.
    
    I was wondering if a boat show is really a good place to buy a boat...
    do you really get good deals?  Or is it better to wait till the
    boating season starts and head to a local dealer?
    
    Also, any input on a good brand .. there's so many out there.
    We have in-laws who live on a lake in Westminster.. so would be
    looking for something in the 17-19' range... would like a motor
    at least 100hp.  Suggestions with price ranges etc, would be
    great.  Will be used for water skiing, knee boarding and of course
    the nightly cruise around the lake.. Nothing drastic!  But we have
    some good sized people who want to be dragged (oops, that means
    want to water ski) around the lake.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Cathi

re              <<< Note 705.23 by KAHALA::SUTER "Never too Hot!" >>>
>               -< suggestions for 17-19' boat.. boat show/ etc? >-

> ================================================================================
> Note 1142.0       suggestions for 17-19' boat.. boat show/ etc?       No replies
> YEOLD::PROVENCAL                                     20 lines  10-JAN-1994 15:37
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>    We have in-laws who live on a lake in Westminster.. so would be
>    looking for something in the 17-19' range... would like a motor

	Does this imply "trailering" ?
 
>    at least 100hp.  Suggestions with price ranges etc, would be

	 
>    the nightly cruise around the lake.. Nothing drastic!  But we have
>    some good sized people who want to be dragged (oops, that means
>    want to water ski) around the lake.

	Define  "good sized" ....    if you really mean  "bad sized",  
i.e. not  "right sized"  then 100 hp is probably marginal, especially 
if driving and spotting will also be done by people who are errrrrr, 
ummm, lets say  "gravitationally challenged" ?  (-:
Almost nobody wants/likes to be dragged around the lake, the only 
solution I know is big engines and light crews  - -  good form would 
help, but I gave up on that, I just wanna get up  QUICK !

	On the other questions, a lot depends on personal preferences, 
styles, etc.  Almost nobody buys the one right boat the first time out 
and keeps it for a very long time.  So there's a general belief that 
you might as well accept that the first boat is a learning experience 
and it takes a couple or three years to figure out which boat you 
really want - as you figure out what you really do with it, percentage 
of time/pleasure skiing, fishing, trolling about, cruising, whatever.
Depreciation is probably least on whatever brands are most popular and 
while quality might not be "top notch" the value is probably in the 
lower priced lines.

	Just my two million dollars worth x 10E-8 

>    Thanks,
    
>    Cathi


	Reg

    We would like to be able to trailer it if necessary.. but for the most
    part, it will just stay docked at their house.  We're up there just 
    about every day anyways.  But would like to occassionally trailer it
    to the Cape, or somewhere like that.
    
    So, sounds like 100hp may not be large enough.  I took a quick look
    through the want-ads and seems like a 130hp is pretty popular.  
    
    Does anyone know what kind of interest rates are out there for boats.
    new and used?
    
    Thanks again,
    
    Cathi

    I would recommend looking for a V-6. The 4 cylinders are fine engines
    and adequate for most use, but given that you have some large skiers
    the extra cubic inches you gain going to a V-6 will be worth what
    little extra you may have to pay to get 'em.
    
    As Reg pointed out, despite your best intentions, and what ever
    promises you make to your spouse about "this is the right boat", you'll
    no doubt use it for a while and decide something about it isn't right.
    Don't let a "small" engine be the reason.
    
    More is better!
    
    ~jeff

    	Don't forget to check about any HP limits on the lake.  Some of the
    smaller lakes may be limited...
    					B.C.

    100 hp for a 16-17 ft low profile relatively light boat will work ok
    for sking. However if the boat is built resonably well high sided,(
    which adds weight). The 100 hp won't work so well after it gets a
    couple hundred hours on it. My 16 ft low profile had 5-6 hundred hours
    on it when I rebuilt it and the rings were all collapsed and not
    sealing well. The boat could still pull me up, 180 lbs of dumb and
    clumsy. Outboard engine I would not by less than 115 hp. Inboard not
    less than 150. Just MHO.

    
    RE: Cathi
    
    >So, sounds like 100hp may not be large enough.  I took a quick look
    >through the want-ads and seems like a 130hp is pretty popular.  
    
    	Sounds like you may be a little confused about Outboard vs. I/O
    applications.
    
    	An outboard delivers more pulling power than an I/O of the same
    HP rating. Why? Because the Outboard only needs to turn one corner
    getting the power to the prop. An I/O must turn a minimum or 2 corners
    on it's path to the prop. Not to mention that generally the complete
    I/O setup weighs more than it's outboard brother.
    
    	You will see many 120 or 130 HP I/O boats for sale in the used
    market. Why? Cuz that's the minimum HP (in recent years) for an I/O
    powered boat. The V6 that Jeff mentioned in an I/O application is more
    like 175 to 200 HP.
    
    	But, in my opinion if you were to compare an outboard and an I/O
    setup on the same hull equal performance would be seen between a
    115 Outboard and a 175 I/O. Anyone else think that's a fair comparison?
    
    Rick

    Me, a little confused?  Nope.. I'm VERY confused.  But thanks to
    everyone for the helpful info.  Hoping to go to the boat show this
    weekend and learn some more!
    
    Thanks again!
    
    Cathi

    Cathi, I'd say Rick's comparison is about right. Just remember that at
    the lower hp's, 100-200, an IO will weigh about twice what an outboard
    weighs. Weight is a huge factor in performance in a small boat. Just
    ask anybody who has put a few extra people in their 17 footer. The pick
    up and top end drop right off.
    
    Hey Rick - it doesn't matter how many sets of gears the power has to go
    through before it gets to the prop if the output power is measured at
    the propshaft. (100 is 100, it doesn't matter how long it takes to get
    there) :^)
    				Kenny

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Note 1264.0                What's a good family boat?                 No replies
NWD002::JOYNER_GL "Did I do that?"                   10 lines  26-JUL-1996 12:50
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    I am looking into purchasing a boat in the 6mo. to a year and I would
    like some information.  I am thinking about FourWinns, Blue Water,
    Seaswirl, Sea Ray, Bayliner, Reinell, and any others I here of in the
    mean time.  We have three kids (11, 9, and 6).  We will be using it
    mostly for family outings, skiing, tubing, in the summer.  I would like
    any info on what to look for in a boat, what a good size would be, open
    bow or cuddy, new or used, etc.  Price is a consideration.
    
    Thanks in advance,
    Glen in Portland, OR. 

    	Do you plan to leave it in the water, or tow it ? If towing, what
    do you have for a tow vehicle ? What is your price range ?
    
    	Ray

    I plan to tow it.  I have a 1993 Plymouth Voyager.  Our price range 
    is around $10,000 or under.
    
    Thanks,
    Glen.

Glen,

>            <<< Note 705.34 by NWD002::JOYNER_GL "Did I do that?" >>>
>                          -< Here's some more info. >-
>
>    I plan to tow it.  I have a 1993 Plymouth Voyager.  Our price range 
>    is around $10,000 or under.
    
	That narrows it down quite a bit..... what's the towing capacity
of the Voyager? 2500 maybe? Remember that this must include boat, motor,
trailer, gas and gear...

Rick

    Someone over in CARBUFFs is discussing towing with a mini-van. Tow
    capacity is somewhere between #1000 and #2000 from what little I've
    followed.
    
    Certainly narrows down the selection, 16' or 17' , with an outboard
    motor, open bow, single axle trailer.
    
    ~jeff

    Does it matter that the minivan has a V6 in it?  I was really hoping to
    get a bigger boat than 17'.
    
    Glen.

    You need to pull the owner's manual out of the glovebox and see what
    *it* says. Typically any front wheel drive vehicle won't have a tow
    capacity greater than 2000#. For a mini-van your gross vehicle weight,
    or load, will be a factor too. If you put a 2500# boat out back, don't 
    expect to load 3 kids, gear, coolers, lawn chairs, etc, into the back seat.
    Mini-vans are great people movers but they fall short as tow rigs. 
    
    The price of the boat is only a fraction of the cost of boat ownership.
    :^) You need to determine why you want a boat. If you get a boat small
    enough to tow with a mini-van, will it be big enough to pull a skier,
    go through choppy water, fit all your family inside, etc? If you think
    you need a 20' boat with a V8 I/O maybe you should be looking at a
    sport utility rather than a mini-van as a tow vehicle. 
    
    ~jeff

For more than you ever wanted to know about tow vehicles and towing, 
see the note 12 (500+ replies) in GENRAL::RV.

Also one of the problems that FWD vehicles have is on wet and 
slippery boat ramp the front wheels lose traction due to weight on 
the hitch which helps lighten the load on the front end (not what you 
want).

Joe

    Good morning all;
    
    I've been recently looking around for a boat that would serve three
    purposes without putting us in the poor house with regards to both
    initial purchase price and maintainence.  The three purposes are: 1)
    can be used for fishing, 2) can pull our 18 year old on a knee board
    and/or tube and 3) be comfortable enough for my wife and I to take a
    cup of tea in after supper and tootle around looking at sights and
    sunsets.  I've been leaning towards a 14' - 16' aluminum with some
    factory "chairs" for comfort, a live well and somewhere around a 20 -
    25 hp motor.  Does this sound like it would serve my purposes? 
    Appreciate your experienced opinions.
    
    Regards,
    
    Rick
    

	There are certainly options in the "under 2000 lbs" category. A Boston
Whaler or Whaler clone are prime examples. A 17 or maybe 19 footer with decent
power like a 90hp including the trailer would be less than 2000 lbs total.

	However, if you were thinking more along the lines of a 17-19 foot
bowrider I/O the choices may be very limited. For instance, my partner has
a 17' Chris Craft 4 cyl I/O bowrider. The total weight including the trailer
is 2400 lbs.

Rick

ps. My 5.2l Dakota tows 3400 lbs very nicely!

Rick,


	If I were your wife or your 18 year old I'd suspect you were
buying a fishing boat under the guise of using it for purposes 2 & 3! :-)

	Of course, no boat will fit all 3 "needs" perfectly, but I think
there may be better options depending upon your budget. I'm almost embarrassed
to say this (since I always poke fun at them) but upon reading your
requirements the first thing that came to mind was a "party" or pontoon
boat. They have plenty of stable room for fishing, can pull tubers and 
boarders with ease and are like a living room for those evening cruises.
The only requirement that might suffer is the kneeboard as the wake won't
really be great for jumping.
    
	A couple of preliminary questions need to be answered first, though...
What's the budget and if you plan on towing this craft, what's the tow vehicle?

Rick

    Rick;
    
    Thanks for your note.  You may just be right about the guise...  :-) 
    However, I don't plan on towing the boat at all.  We have all but
    finalized a deal on a waterfront home on a quiet bay of the Ottawa
    River here in Ontario, Canada.  I like your idea of the pontoon boat as
    I would rather be able to sit 'with' my wife rather than behind her so
    we could talk easier than having to raise your voice so that she and
    everyone else within two miles could hear as well.  What size of this
    type of boat would be right for our needs, and obviously what hp?  Once
    again, there wouldn't be any skiers, just a kneeboard or tube.
    
    Rick
    
    

Rick,

	A river?!?! I <heart-shape> rivers! A premature CONGRATS
on the house!

	I'll have to let some of the pontoon boat owners comment
on sizes and HPs as they seem to come in *ALL* sizes and I have
no first-hand knowledge of their different handling/performance
attributes. Note 272 has some info about them.

Rick    

    A 20' pontoon with a 70hp outboard will do low 20's for top end. You
    can get a skier up with combo skis but there really isn't a wake for
    kneeboard tricks. You just skip along the surface, some areas more
    frothy than others. :^) Great for slow cruises or fishing though.
    
    ~jeff

    Pardon my ignorance, Jeff, but what are combo skis?
    
    Rick
    

>>                       <<< Note 705.46 by OTOOA::LEBEN >>>
>>                                    -< Eh? >-

>>    Pardon my ignorance, Jeff, but what are combo skis?
    
>>    Rick

	Rick,

 Combo skis are a pair of skis, one with a single boot, and the other has
 a boot and a toe piece in the back. They are usually used by people that
 ski on two skis, or start off on two, and then drop one to ski (slalom)....

	Jeff and Rick are pro skiers ;-), and have the big $$$$$$ single skis
 with double boots etc, ;-) ;-)......

	IMHO and what it's worth, you would probably enjoy something like
 a 17-19 foot bowrider (give you walk around space front and back for fishing)
 with a 90hp trim/tilt (for skiing/tubing/knee board for 18yrs son) and side
 by side buckets/seat, V hull for those slow cruise on the river with your
 wife.......

	Not as nice as a pontoon for large gathering or real slow cruising,
 but should fit excuse (to get a boat ;-) 1,2,3 pretty well.

	Again this is only my opinion, and I guess a description of what
 I have (16.5' runabout). It has been serving my needs for years, and is
 easy enough to tow if I decide to check out new scenery..........

	Norm

Rick,
	Norm's reply described my first boat perfectly - a 16' Conroy, open bow
with a 90Hp Merc tilt/trim.  It was a great first boat, with enough punch to 
pull up a good size skier on combos, but required a lot of work to pull up
someone on a single.It had a decent wake for kneeboarding and tubing with a
couple of observers in the boat.

	My wife and I had numerous lunches just floating on the lake, but the
slow speed cruises had some drawbacks with exhaust fumes creaping forward, and
loud enough engine noises to loose some of those imtimate comments :*)

	I wouldn't dismiss either option.  They both seem to meet your needs but
are different enough so that you should definitely 'try before you buy.'

dave

    I try to avoid coming off as "spending more money is better", and I don't
    buy expensive toys for the sake of spending.  If I'm going to buy a
    boat or a ski then it has to meet my needs, or the money is wasted. I
    was co-owner of a 20' pontoon with my father. Within 2 weekends I was
    off combo (twin) skis and looking to go slalom skiing. The pontoon
    couldn't do it. I had to bum tows from passing strangers. :^) 
    I owned half a boat that I no longer wanted to ski behind, and it barely 
    broke 20 mph. My dad loved it though and next year he bought me out. 
    My next bought my wife decided should be an open bow runabout. I said 
    inboard skiboat. We bought a 19' Baja with a 260hp V8 I/O. Great for 
    pulling skiers and could zip around the lake @ 50mph. As my skiing
    ability improved I realized the boat's wake was like hitting a curb and
    after the first summer the boat sat in my backyard as I bummed tows
    from friends with inboards. I now own a competition inboard skiboat.
    This is my 5th season with it. It took 3 attempts and a couple of lost
    $$'s to get what I wanted originally.
    
    Your mileage may vary.
    
    ~jeff
    
    

    Thanks all so far for your comments.  I have been keeping my wife in
    the know with regards to our conversations.  Last night we went down to
    the river and had a cup of coffee sitting at one of the marinas just
    looking at the different types of watercraft and obviously discussing
    the merits of each.  I think, (emphasis on think), that she is leaning
    away from a pontoon boat and more towards a bowrider but we certainly
    haven't made up our minds yet.  At least there's no rush.  We'll keep
    you informed and thanks again for the insights received to date.  They
    sure are great food for thought.
    
    Regards,
    
    Rick
    

    After rereading your original note, I think we've escalated beyond what
    you were looking for. One other option to consider is a Boston Whaler.
    It's a good combo for fishing (i.e. open), can handle a large enough
    motor to pull a kneeboard, and has side-by-side seating for those
    evening cruises. The only drawback would be the kneeboard aspect as it
    doesn't kick up a lot of wake. But how many more years is that 18-yr
    old gonna be content to go out with Mom and Dad anyhow? 
    
    I was in the market for the same reasons as you and ended up paying $5K 
    for a used Whaler with a 60HP Evinrude last year. My kids are younger
    than yours so I wasn't looking for a lot of muscle. On the fishing
    side, it's not as ideal as a bass boat, but it's very stable, open all
    around and easy to maneuver. It's only 15' 3" but handles a family of
    four very easily. I had it out on the Broads at Winni on a windy day and
    it handled it ok, but I'm not sure I'd do it again, at least with the
    kids in the boat. If you can spring for the extra $, get a 4-cycle
    motor. The problem with fumes goes away, they are a lot quieter (good
    for the wife and the fishing) and get much better miles per gallon.
    
    Chris

    re:37
    
    	Your other option for getting into a larger boat with a smallish
    tow vehicle is to look into aluminum boats. I know that Starcraft and Lund 
    each make a 19'er in aluminum. The Starcraft tow weight comes in right at 
    2000 lbs. for a wet 19' bow-rider rig.
    
    	Aluminum is significantly lighter than an equivelent sized fiberglass
    boat. It will tow easier and move through the water faster with less HP 
    (read - better fuel economy) than the same sized boat in fiberglass. It may
    tend to give a bouncier ride though. 
    
    	Ray