Conference vicki::boats

    This note does not imply that they are not people in the Powerboats
    notes to help you with your base note question.However, as a matter of
    fact there are a couple of people in the sailing notes(honest! I don't
    try to get customers from this file to the other) that they built and
    restore their own boats.So, I suggest that you post your note there
    too.

Re: .0

I had a similar challenge last spring.  All I had to do was finish a new 
wooden 8' pram, so the work level was not as much as your requirement.

I searched the notesfile (power and sail).  Asked questions etc.

What turned into the best approach was to call the 800 numbers for Petite 
and Interlux, two very reputable marine paint/finishing manufacturers.

Both customer assistance centers were very helpful.  They made suggestions 
only after you respond to their questions so to permit the solution to be 
"tailored" to your needs.

	numbers 800-INTRLUX
		201 625-3100 (can't find the 800 #)

Good luck and don't forget to post their "solutions"

Carl

    Also check out the book Fine Yacht Finishes for wood and fiberglass. 
    That is not the exact title but is close enough to find it.  I believe
    that it is under $30 from Boat US.
    
    
    Forrest

    I worked on 32 foot Chris's for about ten years (my own, not as a
    business).  What exactly do you want to know?  What condition is it,
    etc?
    

    FIRST LET ME DESCRIBE THE BOAT'S CONDITION:
    IT WAS SANDED AND PRIMED ABOUT ONE YEAR AGO . SINCE THEN IT HAS
    JUST BEEN SITTING.
    MY QUESTIONS ARE; A.HOW MUCH DO I HAVE TO SAND THE OLD PRIME COAT?
    			WHAT GRIT PAPER SHOULD I USE.
    		      B.I HAVE A 4HP AIR COMPRESSOR AND A COMMERCIAL
    			GRADE AIRLESS SPRAYER. WHICH WOULD BE BEST FOR
    			THE PRIME AND FINISH COAT.
    		      C.DO I NEED TO DO ANY THING TO THE PRIME COAT
    			BEFORE I APPLY THE FINISH.
    
    		     
    
    
    
    
    			

    You are out of my league.  I did all by hand (with assistance of belt
    and/or vibration sanders. For regular hand painting, should not need to
    work on the prime except to fair or smooth the surface.
    
    I am not familiar with airless sprayers.  The air compressor and
    appropriate spray gun should give an excellent finish, though.  With
    the equipment you have, if you did not have oil primer, possibly you
    might have considered Awlgrip or equivalents.
    
    In answer to your specific quewstion as to what grit to use on the
    primer, it must be known what you are attempting to do next.  As I
    mentioned, sanding might not even be necessary.  If you wanted to take
    off any remaining roughness,you might start around 120 or 220 grit.
    How smooth is it now, and smooth do you want to get?  What color are
    you planning on to finish with? 
    
    Niles

re .5:

Before you spray ANYTHING, check with the manufacturer regarding toxicity. 
Sprayed polyurethanes (eg, Awlgrip) are extremely hazardous and can easily 
kill you. The proper protective equipment (which includes a positive pressure 
respirator) is essential. Some vendors are much more conscientious about 
health hazard warnings than others (the makers of Awlgrip really emphasize the 
health dangers of their products). By the way, if you don't mind a bit of 
orange peel, polyurethanes (especially white) can be quite satisfactorily 
applied with a high quality foam roller. 

    
    
    If you have both a air and airless sprayer I'd opt for the air driven.
    I have used an airless sprayer with catalyzed auto enamel and Awlgrip
    with excellent results but the air driven sprayer does a better more
    consistent job and is less 'touchy' when in use. 
    
    Follow reccommnedations, esp. regarding volitility of fumes and proper
    self protection.  
    
                                                Tom

    
    I hope this is the right place to put this. If not, please let me know.
    
    My wife and I were given an OOOOOOOOOOLD wooden boat. It was built by 
    my wifes uncle ex-father-inlaw (say that 5 times real fast) back in
    1929. It's based after a Peterborough design (what ever that is). We 
    just stripped the boat only to find a lot of rot. We'd like to keep the
    boat since is holds some sentimantal value in my wifes family. So does
    anyone know of place in the NH Mass area that can fix a boat like
    this?? I've looked in the NH phone books but noone seems to work on 
    wooden boats.
    
    Mike

    You didn't mention the boats size. But all things being
    relative, these kind of repairs can get expensive, very expensive.
    
    Reason being, that each piece, needs to be fit into place.
    
    On a percentage basis, how much rot, and where is it..
    
    If its in the stringers, or major support areas, were really
    talking big $$$$$$. 
    
    
    Sorry for the bad news, but at times, it ain't worth it.
    
    JIm

    
    	There are places which work on wooden boats..... One
    that comes to mind is located on Winnie between Gilford and
    Meredith. I realize that doesn't narrow it down much, but
    it's on the right heading north along the lake and he has
    all kinds of wooden boats out front.
    
    	Anyone happen to know the name of this place?
    
    	Rick

    Rick,
      According to my trusty (slightly outdated) yellow pages, could it be
    Harper's boat restoration on Rt 3 in Meredith? (603-279-8841)  There's
    another listing also -Wolfboro Restoration Center (603-569-1869).
    I haven't dealt with either place so no 1st hand experience...
    Good luck with your decisions,
    Doug

See any issue of WOODENBOAT magazine for many, many advertisements by 
wooden boat builders/repairers/restorers. Any work is like to be very, 
very expensive. 

    
    Thanks for all the replys and thanks to some of you who sent me mail.
    
    To answer some of the questions about the boat.
    
    . The boat is about 15'. Not exactly sure.
    . There is rot in some of the ribs and about 30% of the haul. Also the
      transom (? on spelling) has some rot.
    . I can do all the painting and refinishing myself. Over half our house
      is furnished that way. It's the replacing the boards and ribs that I
      have no idea about.
    
    
    I'll post my what I find out here. I just wish my wifes family kept better
    care of the boat.
    
    Mike

    There is the Wooden Boat Shop in Melvin Village on Lake Winni north of
    Wolfboro on Rt 109. It's run by Ivan Phelps. He does repairs and
    restorations. 

    Moved by moderator...
================================================================================
Note 812.0                   SLICK SEAM vs SILICONE                   No replies
BOSOX::MFLAHERTY                                     26 lines  17-MAR-1991 21:26
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
       Hi,
    
           I'm new to the wooden boat world and I was wondering if some
    one could help me out.
    
    
           I'm kind of torn between useing the "SLICK SEAM" brand sealant
    or the old standby silicone for the seams on my '67 28ft Pacemaker.
    
           I've heard incredible things about slick seam which has been 
    on the market for a little while now. My cousin swears by it.
    
           The boat is in remarkable condition for its age and doesn't
    really need anything that any other wooden boat would.
    
           The guy that I bought the boat from said he's been using the
    silicone on it for all of the 14 years that he's owned it and he's
    never had a real problem with it.
    
           Has anyone out there had any experience whith both?
    
    
                                       Any response will be apreciated,
    
                                                Mackrel Mike

    
    I tried something new for me last year. After bitchin for a lot
    of years about barnacles on inboard shafts/props/ or
    better stated, the running gear, i decided to try a spray on
    Anti-foulant made by Tempo.
    
    I sprayed the shafts and the props. Remeber to mask off the areas
    where you put your zincs, they won't work otherwise.
    
    You need to apply 3 coats. 
    
    In the fall i had 3 barnacles on them (this is twin inboards)
    
    This year i'm gonna do all the running gear.
    
    ONE CAUTION, do not get this in your eyes..... WE"RE talking
    instant BLINDNESS. So wear the proper safety gear.
    I recommend spraying downwind.
    
    I'm sure the folks with i/o's do this because of the aluminum
    housings.
    
    I'm also gonna do the trim tabs. I put them on several yrs. ago.
    I followed the mfgrs. directions and wasted a lot of time
    applying epoxy paint and then the antifouling paint.
    Since most of it peeled off anyway, i'll finish it off
    and put the spray stuff on.
    
    Oh, the spray stuff isn't cheap, but it works....
    
    JIm
    

    I used the spray stuff on my lower unit last year for the first
    time a was real please with the results. Definitly worth the $20
    for paint and primer. 
    
    Bruce

    
     I think it all depend on your location. I moor my boat in Bristol
    harbor in R.I. The spray stuff wa sput on (3 coats) in 30 days I had
    grass and barnacles you wouldn't beleive.
    
     I finally ended up getting some tin based bottom paint for the I/O
    (yes, the realstuff). The Marina wanted over $100 to put it onm my I/O
    That stuff workd great- only problem is , it is red.
    
     I now have an ugly(but Clean) outdrive.
    
    Dick
    
    

    
    I wouldn't advertise this...
    
    JIm

    I used the spray-on stuff last Spring.   It lasted about 1-2 months
    (boat is moored in salt water).   It is very expensive, very toxic,
    and very time consuming to apply - there are an amazing number of
    little areas on the outdrive that you *don't* want to get it near
    (water intake, trim cylinders, tilt mechanism) and you have to tape all
    these areas.  
    
    I just go over the lower unit with a scrubbrush every couple of weeks
    and that seems to do just as well for 10 min effort.
    

    
    Hmmm, unless i take a swim, i can't see the running gear.
    
    I hauled in June, the running gear lost out to the rocks.
    
    Anyway, in the past when i hauled in the fall, the running
    gear was loaded with barnacles. Even pressure washing didn't get them
    off. This fall, i had 3 barnacles on the gear after pressure
    wash.
    
    The spray on is about $15 a can.
    
    The running gear is under the boat and underway is constantly
    get the full force of the moving water.
    I/O's are kinda half and half, where the knee and some
    part are above the keel and out of the water when running.
    
    Wonder if this might be the difference?????
    
    JIm.

	I own a 1958 17' Thompson lapstrake wooden boat that needs
	some cosmetic work around the interior walls, and I'm wondering
	what's the best thing to use to protect the wood once I sand it 
	down.  I also want to keep future peeling of the finish to a minimum.

	I removed "plastic" carpeting that came with the boat that covered
	the interior walls because I heard it induces rot.  There's no	
	major rot problem.  Removing the carpet exposed the the ribs/laps 
	of wood, and also the reason why the former owner installed it:
	to keep maintenance down.
	
	The present condition of the wood walls is solid wood but with
	some layers of peeling varnish.   It's peeling and flaking like
	crazy!   A palm sander I borrowed from a friend to test worked
	pretty good stripping down the old varnish.

	What I'm wondering is, what do I apply once I've stripped all
	the old finish off to keep future problems (ie, peeling) to a 
	mininum ?  Any suggestions/comments/hints ?

	I guess I have varnish or polyurethane/stain as options.
	
	FWIW, the area under the bow of the boat looks mint: no peeling
	whatsoever on what looks like old varnish/stain.  So I assume it's
	exposure to the sun that caused the rest of the boat's interior
	walls to peel.
	
	Thanks,
	Ken

    I would re-varnish myselfs to keep the original finish although you may
    want to go with one of the poly-urethane finishes.  Either one should
    be available with a UV blocker to minimize the effects of the sun on
    the finish.  Make sure you read the instructions on what you buy.  Some
    products require a filler stain first over new or open grain woods
    (oak, mahogany, ash) to insure a smooth finish.  Most of the major
    makers (Interlux, Z-Spar, Epifanes) have a toll free 800 number to help
    with your selection.  Check also at your local marine supply store. 
    They should have application charts to assist you.
    Wayne (keep it original) Norcross
       

	Probably already covered in this, or other, strings  - -  
anyway,  be sure to follow the directions and have the wood either
swollen or shrunken, it makes a big difference to some finishes. 
If you have the boat out of the water for a few weeks and it is dried 
out when you refinish it the finish might crack ("craze" ?) when you 
get the wood wet and it swells.  I think the normal way is to swell 
the wood, but check with the directions.

	Reg

	Thanks for the tips.  So I guess it doesn't matter whether 
	I use varnish or polyurethane; it's just a matter of looks
	(and attitude ;-).  

	I like the idea of a UV blocker.  The sun must be what made it
	peel so much.  If it was the swelling, the covered bow interior
	would also be peeling, and it looks fine.

	Ken 

    Wood works constantly, swelling and shrinking.  How can one apply a 
    finish which can't expand or shrink with the wood and expect the finish
    to stay on?  Swollen wood would be wet wood, right?  I have never 
    heard of a finish which was supposed to be applied over wet wood.  But,
    maybe the word wet is a relative one, since all wood contains SOME
    moisture.
    
    
    Jeff

	I deliberately used the terms swollen and shrunk(en)  

	Wood can be very swollen, or expanded - but the surface can be quite dry
and suitable for finishing.   Similarly, it can be very shrunken, but wet on the
surface and NOT suitable for finishing.  I believe that if wood is finished when
swollen (but surface dry) there is less likelyhood of the finish spoiling due
to shrinking and swelling.

	Reg

Generally finishes should be applied to dry wood.  Wood wet with fresh or 
salt water may pose problems bonding the finish.  Additionally, wood wet
with fresh water is likely to dry rot if you seal the moisture in. 

There are two swelling/shrinking actions happening here.  Finishes in 
fact generally are somewhat elastic, and can accommodate normal ranges of 
expansion/contraction in wood due to heating/cooling.  Water absorption, 
however, involves a greater range of size changes, and finishes rarely 
handle that well.  Especially if they don't adhere well. (See para #1.)

Topside and interior finishes applied to dry (<15% moisture) wood should 
prevent water getting into the grain and swelling it.  Bottom paint 
doesn't stretch to totally cover the swelled grain, but covers it well 
enough that in theory the micro-organisms which want to grow there can't 
find a spot far enough from the toxic paint for it to make any difference.

One-part finishes are in fact porous when dry.  The volatile liquid used 
to hold the dissolved and suspended toxic goodies evaporates, leaving 
microscopic pinholes and gaps in the material.  They usually act a bit
like Gore-Tex -- liquid water molecules can't penetrate, but often gaseous 
(independent) molecules can.  This isn't necessarily good than bad:  as
much trapped moisture stands a chance of leaving as new moisture does of
entering.  Wood tends to find its own moisture level, based partial vapor
pressures and other factors. 

If you want or need a true total barrier, then two-part systems are 
required, such as epoxies.  They catalyze into a solid without much
evaporation, thus reducing or even eliminating any porosity.  This is why 
multiple thin coats of two-part epoxy is the preferred anti-blister 
preventative for fiberglass boats, where the goal is to keep any water 
molecules from sustained contact with the gelcoat.

Dr. Paint.

    Going back to my very first boat (wood & a disaster), I recall that the
    "experts" learned only to paint one side of wood where possible. The
    rationale was that wood needs to breathe or else it would rot. The
    moisture then could enter/escape thru the unsealed side of the wood
    which would normally be the bilge.
    
    The interior use theory essentually is that you seal completely the
    wood (such as a door) while it's dry and after you finished the
    trimming in order to keep moisture out and prevent swollen/stuck doors.
    
    In Maryland, where there are plank like wood hulls for work boats, they
    use a fiber packing (okum?) while dry between the planks and paint over
    it. You can witness a wood boat sitting on land a while and see how
    shrinkage of the wood opens gaps as wide as a 1/4". The "pros" simply
    let the boat sit in water and reswell to seal again (with new packing
    of course).       
    
    I don't envy anyone with a wood boat. They do have a beauty of their
    own however.    

    I don't think your supposed to paint over oakum.
    
    Jeff

There are several good books available that discuss the proper methods 
for painting/varnishing wooden boats. Reading one of them would probably 
be time well-spent. These and many other good books are available by
mail from International Marine Publishing. 

Paint and varnish are both very porous to water and do little to prevent 
water absorption. See the various tests by epoxy manufacturers [eg, 
Gougeon Brothers (WEST epoxy)]. They mostly prevent surface weathering and 
look nice. Even the very best exterior varnish will only survive a year 
or less of direct sunlight. The best way to keep it looking nice is to 
keep it covered.

    
    Oakum (saturated with Pine Tar- I beleive it is cotton or hemp) is used
    only BELOW the water line. The caulking used above the water line is
    raw cotton. THe odl timers used a special caulking iron and caulking
    hammer. You can still by Oakum, caulking cotton, and the tools from
    Jamestown Supply in R.I.
    
     Having owned several wooden boats, I can attest to the awful job of
    caulking (you didn'y do it every year, and the extensive maintenace
    on a wooden boat.
    
     But the Beauty, The smell (Paint, Manila,Pine Tar) and most of all the
    ride- (wood boats flex- some a great deal)
    
     I still keep a hunk of tarred marline in my shed at my home on the
    coast- brings back a lot of memories.
     
    
    Dick
    Oakum=Cotton+ Pine Tar

	I'm thinking of using a stain/wood preservative on the
	interior hull and sides of the '58 Thompson that I've 
	been working on.  I figure that the stain will give the 
	interior, exposed lapstrakes + ribs decent appearance - the 
	test application looks nice!  The wood preservative part
	(prevents rot and mildew) would be good for protecting the 
	wood. Another major advantage to using this as I see it, is 
	that it won't peel like varnish, though this isn't a problem
	under the flooring which I also will be coating.  

	The product is made by McKloskey and it says 'water resistant' 
	on the label, as opposed to waterproof, so I assume it will
	allow the wood to breathe.  It's also non-photochemically
	reactive, so good for exposure to the sun.  Its typical 
	application is for exterior decks and that sort of thing.  
	The boat is trailered.

	Any comments on using a stain/wood preservative like this
	for this application ?   

	Thanks
	Ken

    I've just been offered a deal on a 12' Penn Yann Cartopper
    that's just too good to pass up ($100).  The boat is all 
    there in one piece, with all hardware, and no rot.  This 
    one is contructed of a rib and plank design, then covered 
    with stretched canvas.
    
    The major piece of work that it needs, is to replace all of
    the canvas.  Any of you know anything about replacing the
    canvas?  I recently attended a wooden boat symposium at
    the Mariner's Museum in VA, where there was a presentation
    on Penn Yanns.  From that I know that the canvas was originally
    installed with the use of large machines that stretched the 
    canvas with hundreds of pounds of pressure.  I'm not that 
    strong though.  8^)
    
    Anyone know of the recommended procedure for replacing the 
    canvas, correct materials, etc.?  I'm planning on checking out 
    the procedure for staying original, and also West System epoxy
    (I'd like to only have to do it once!).
    
    thanks,
    Rick

    Rick, while in college, my friend and I recovered a canvas canoe.  We
    bought the canvas at Johnson Tarpaulin on Rt. 20 outside of Worcester.
    I have no idea if they are still there.  They knew what we needed.  We
    stretched the canvas over the canoe frame as tight as we could and
    stapled it. (make sure you use stainless staples.)  The sealant causes
    the canvas to shrink so that it really tightens up.  I don't remember
    where we purchased the sealant or what it was called.  We applied many
    light coats with a paint brush.  I'm sure our restoration job would
    make purists cry put it came out looking pretty good and it didn't
    leak.
    Wayne