Conference vicki::boats

    Smaller, lighter boats are best for skiing (i.e. small wake for salom).
    Larger, heavier boats are best for cruising around big lakes with big
    waves (i.e. smoother ride). 16' is too small for Lake George and
    especially Lake Winni on a windy day or from Sept till boating season
    ends. 18' barely makes it on Lake Winni passing through the wakes of
    30' cruisers going at just the wrong speed (i.e. largest possible
    hull displacement).
    
    50 hp will pull up 1 skiier with a couple people on board. Weight of
    the boat is a major factor. 15' boats weight about 1500 lbs. +-
    depending on mfgr. 20' boats weight 2000-3000 lbs. w/motor. Larger
    boats generally have larger engines which weight more. 90 hp will
    pull up a solom skiier with a couple people on board or 2 skiiers
    with 2 skis with 3-4 people on board. Pulling up 2 solom skiiers
    with 4-5 people on board will require 150-200 hp depending on
    weight of boat/gas/people/gear/etc.
    
    If your buying used, make sure the engine has been well serviced.
    Getting stuck on Lake Winni in the open waters with wind is a bad
    time for the engine to die! $4K sounds about right to me but there
    are too many factors to consider. Personally, I'd rather cough up
    another $4K and go for a new bayliner or larson first time boats.
    Yeah, low end but good first boats.
    
    Also, remember large engines use more gas (even when going slow).
    If your going to ski most of the time go larger. If cruise most of
    the time go lower. Either way purchase an extra gas tank (or two).
    
    Ray

	.....and somewhere in that size/weight equation there is a 
step function that causes you to go out and buy a heftier vehicle for 
towing your (low end (-: ) toy;   THAT can be the REALLY expensive 
part !

	R

    Test drive any boat you are interested in buying,especially if you
    suspect it might be underpowered or unreliable. If the boat comes
    out of the hole sluggishly,doesn't plane quickly enough or handles
    funny in the water;(such as rolls side to side or porpoises while
    on plane) then it probably is underpowered or has a defect in the
    hull. Most dealers are willing to tell the proper power needs for
    a specific size and brand/type of boats that will meet your needs.
    Don't buy an underpowered boat,you will regret it.Probably for a
    17 ft. runabout stay within 85-125 hp range,this will allow you
    to waterski and cruise or fish and not strain your pocketbook too
    much.

    The thing that gets me on used boats is the almost unbelievable
    range in prices.  New boats seem to have much more consistent pricing.
    The "for sale" note in this conference always blows my mind.  Today
    we have a 20' lobster boat (exc cond) in the same price range as
    a 13' Whaler with a much smaller engine.  As an ignoramus in this
    market, I feel waiting to be "had".  Used cars are much more consistent
    in price.   What's going on here?
    
    - Theory A.  Boats depreciate VERY fast with use.  So two identical
      boats with somewhat different mileage on them will sell for more
      than somewhat of a price difference.
    
    - Theory B.  Boat owners trade up frequently.  Being in most cases
      above average income, getting rid of the former boat quickly is
      more important than getting top dollar for it.

    - Theory C.  No one knows how to price used boats.  The volume does
      not provide the statistical backing used to produce things like
      the used car blue book.
    
    Or a combination of the above.  Or is all this my imagination.

RE: Note 486.4 

>> The thing that gets me on used boats is the almost unbelievable
>> range in prices.  New boats seem to have much more consistent pricing.
 
The main reason prices of used boats vary so much is that the *condition*
of used boats varies so much.  Let's say you and I bought identical boats
this past spring (I did).  I use mine strictly in fresh water, never leave
it in the water overnight, keep it clean, tuned, etc...   You put your's on
a mooring in Boston Harbor, skip the routine maintenance, never clean it,
etc...  Who's boat is going to be worth more at the end of the season?
This may be stretching it a bit to make a point, but you get the idea.  The 
value of two identical boats could vary by several thousand dollars at the 
end of only one season.

Amother point is that you can't figure the value of any boat by comparing
it to what a Whaler sells for.  A friend's Dad has a 13' Whaler, for which
he paid almost as much as my Sunbird cuddy cabin.  Whalers are nice boats,
and I don't mean to offend any Whaler owners, but in my opinion they are
*way* overpriced.

You made a good point that there seems to be little idea on how to price used
boats.  A used car dealer near my house has had an old boat sitting on their
lot for over a month, so I stopped in for a look yesterday.  The thing's worth
about $500, and they want $1500 for it.  For that price it'll sit there forever.
I told them I'd stop by after it's been there a few more months and see if 
they were ready to come down.  When you see a boat that seems overpriced and 
wonder how they can get so much for it, remember, that is only the *asking* 
price.  It does not mean they will get that much for it.  Try looking in the 
classified ads of Offshore Magazine.  They have a "run the ad 'til it sells" 
policy, and the ads for boats that seem overpriced will usually run for several
months.

With the slowdown in the economy and summer about over, it's a buyer's market
right now.  Anyone who is seriously ready to buy and has the money in hand
should be in a real good bargaining position.  It's amazing how quick the price
will come down when you mention, "Geez, I can only offer you $6500 for that 
$8000 boat, but I can give you a deposit right now and pick it up tomorrow".

My $.02 worth.

Rick W.

    GOOD NEWS,,,,,  NONE OF THE ABOVE:::::::::
    
    Cars are altogether a different animal. There is more consistency,
    even from manufacturer to manufacturer. A car that comes from
    a temperate climate may draw a few more bucks, because it has
    not seen any salt.
    
    Boats on the other hand, may have drastically different equipment,
    and extremely varying perception problems, not to forget the
    OWMERS ego. (MINE IS THE BEST, THE OTHERS ARE S___).
    
    You can draw some conclusions by gaining access to the BUC BOOK,
    it has book values for most boats. Its not the best, but it is
    a guideline. Also read the classified to see what others may 
    be selling the same of similar boat for. But don't compare
    a Bertram to a Sea Ray, they're completely different.
    
    And of course, there the special cases, where boats have been
    modified by the precious owners, unless you really know what
    your doing, or you have lots of bucks, stay away from these.
    
    
    Its nuts isn't it.
    
    
    JIM
    

    The point I was trying to get across in .3 has to do with the buyers
    mentality or caution one should possess and use when shopping for
    a boat. Yes,I agree that boats and cars are two different animals,
    but when you are spending a lot of your hard earned dollars on a
    boat or a car,one must convince themself first that you're not 
    buying junk or that's what they really want. Many boats on the
    used market are there because they didn't like the ride the boat
    had or it was too slow,etc,etc. If you pick one car over another
    because it was  A) taken care of    B) had adequate hp   C) was
    a late model car,  is this any different from a boat?
      
       You should exercise caution when buying a boat. DO NOT buy
    somebody else's headache if you can help it.If a test drive of the
    boat shows a deficiency in it, for whatever reason, you don't buy
    it. The seats in a boat can be tore up just like a car, the trailer
    axle can be bent, the motor worn out and on and on. Many people
    get "taken" buying new or used boats simply because they didn't
    exercise adequate caution from the beginning. There are many good
    buys out there right now as somebody else stated in an earlier
    reply, it is a buyers market right now...Happy Hunting
    
                                           Mike Hall

    In my opinion boats are more like houses or art work , they are worth
    what someone is willing to pay. The books are used by the banks to
    decide how big a loan they will give you or to tell you how much
    insurance you have to carry  but as far as what is the boat "worth"
    anything goes. If you have something special and someone else wants it
    name your price.
    
       Bill
    

    Looking back on this note in thew middle of Snow, Ice, and fridgid cold
    I was wondering if the author bought their boat? And if so what did you
    get?
    
    I have sold a Lot  of boats both  new and old and find a strange common
    factor that a lot of new boaters percive. They look at two very
    different boats and typically say The guy down the street only wants $
    for their boat , Howcome you want 10 X $ for yours??"
    
    
    Usually they wont say the same about a car? Like " Hey  , I can buy a
    brand new 4 cyl Yugo for $5 K , How Come you want $50 K for that 4 cyl 
    Porche?"
    
    See what I mean?  Its the Bertram vs. Searay concept. or Boston Whaler
    vs. Bayliner.  There is usually (not allways) a very good reason why
    something costs more than somthing else. How come I can buy a Casio
    watch for $25 bucks but that Rolex cost $3K?? Don't they both tell
    time?
    
    The best way to go about finding a Bargain on a Boat is to educate
    yourself. Subscribe to some boaters magizines and read some design
    books to become familier with the types of boats that interest you. You
    may even find that what you thought was Your kind of boat may not have
    been what you really needed after all. It will save you a lot of
    aggrivation and money. You may even be able to buy a used boat that
    someone else had made a error in buying , because it did not suit their
    needs.
    
                                      Walt
    
    See Ya At the boat shows!
    
    

> See what I mean?  Its the Bertram vs. Searay concept. or Boston Whaler
> vs. Bayliner.  There is usually (not allways) a very good reason why

OK, I'll bite.  What *is* the "Bertram vs. Searay concept"?  In fact, what is
the "Boston Whaler vs. Bayliner" concept?  (I've got my own theories, but I
genuinely can't figure out what you're trying to point out here.)

Jeff    

RE: Note 486.10    by SEARAY::EAST  
                        ^
>> OK, I'll bite.  What *is* the "Bertram vs. Searay concept"?  In fact,
>> what is the "Boston Whaler vs. Bayliner" concept? 


I guess with a node name like that you'd take offense to any implied
shot at the quality of a Sea Ray.    8^)   Walt's point is that just 
as you can't compare a Porsche to a Hyundai just because the both have 
4 wheels and a motor, there is a difference in boats that may appear 
on the outside to be very similar.  Plenty of people think "why should
a 21' Carver cost $30K when I can buy a 21' Bayliner for $15K?".  There
IS a difference - the fact that both have a fiberglass hull and a stern
drive unit are about the only similarities.

Whether the comparison is Bertram vs. Sea Ray, or Whaler vs. Bayliner,
the concept is the same.  It's not a shot against Sea Ray or Bayliner,
because they each have their place in the market. You get what you pay 
for, and how much quality you need and can afford is up to you.  The
real trick is to shop carefully and make sure that you really are getting
the level of quality that you've decided to pay for.

Next will we hear from someone with a node name of "BAYLNR" who also
was offended by Walt's comparison?    8*)

Rick

    
    RE -1
    
    On a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being the best, what would you give SEARAY
    for a rating ??  I have heard nothing but good things about SEARAY, and
    it looks to me as if you are putting the SEARAY at the low end of the
    scale.  I must admit I am no expert when it comes to boats, but I do
    frequent the lakes every summer and I do hear the different stories
    about the different boat makers and SEARAY is usually talked about in a
    kind light.
    
    Just wondering ?????
    
    

    The problem with scales, even if you are unbiased, is that of
    relativity. Everything is relative to the observer's position.
     
    If the observer is at the helm of a Bertram (which naturally rates a
    10), the observer may think well of a SeaRay, but tends to lump the
    "commoner's" boats into a closely related pile so that the SeaRay is
    rated a 4 and a Bayliner a 2. The upper end of the scale is exaggerated
    because the observer sees big difference between the Bertram and what
    is just below it in the market and the lower end is compressed since
    that end of the market has little interest to them. 
    
    If the observer is rowing a skiff, or maybe driving a simple craft a
    new Bayliner looks pretty good, a SeaRay fantastic, and a Bertram like
    Donald Trump's fortune - unobtainable. Hence the lower end of the scale
    is exaggerated and upper end is compressed since they are so good
    and expensive and it isn't meaningful to them. So a Bayliner is a 5 a
    SeaRay an 8, a Formula a 9, and a 10 to anything more expensive.
    
    john 

Re 486.10

You'd think I'd learn to be more subtle, wouldn't you?  Didn't even occur to
me that I'd given myself away by the node name (been using it for quite awhile).

Actually, it was a real question.  I have a 1986 25' SeaRay Sundancer, which has
given us nothing but pleasure.  But when I was looking for it, I had a *real*
difficult time finding quantitative differences in lots of makers' boats (some
are obvious, but I couldn't, for example, tell a heck of a lot between a
SeaRay and a Cruisers, Inc...both dealers said their's was the best thing 
since sliced bread).

Since then, I've had more opportunity to see more boats, read more, met more
boaters, etc.  I discovered that I made a pretty good decision to buy a
SeaRay.  But getting people to give *honest* evaluations of different makes
of boats is *hard*.  So the comment of "Bertram vs Searay" I found 
inappropriate -- the 25' Bertrams I've seen weren't so much astronomically
better than my boat as to make me believe that the difference must be
intuitively obvious to all life forms! (not to argue...I know, I know, that
Bertrams are The Boat, to which all rational stink-pot owners are to aspire.)

Jeff

Very often the differences in design and construction that result in higher 
quality (and of course price) aren't particularly obvious. Two boats make 
look very similar yet be very different in quality and construction. 

One example is the electrical system. The best systems use DC circuit
breakers, tinned wire, color coding, soldered connections, wires run in
raceways or secured with a cable tie every 6 to 12 inches, voltmeters,
ammeters, sealed battery switches, and so on. Expensive and very
time-consuming to install. What you usually get is fuses, untinned wire,
crimped connections, etc. This is fine for a very few years in a salt water
environment, and then corrosion begins to make the system unreliable. And
finding electrical problems is no great fun. 

Another is how well hardware is installed. All deck hardware should be 
through-bolted with heavy backing plates, and the holes drilled through a 
cored deck should be well sealed (with resin) and have compression bushings
(otherwise tightening the bolts will crush the core). 

And so on. 

    RE: 486.15,
    
    Alan, i agree on the points you've made. But there are some
    obvious points that are visible. Seating, steering, molded in
    non-skid, dia. of railings, larger gunnel width, (make excellent
    walkways) don't often see this on a Sea Ray, the rails are
    so close to the house you can't get your foot in between to
    walk forward, to continue, the finish, hardware is usually
    heavily chrome plated bronze, or solid stainless, usually 
    large and very accessible. I am not stating that Bertram's are
    a better boats, but it does make sense for folks to understnd
    what they are buying.
    
    Jim.

re                <<< Note 486.15 by MSCSSE::BERENS "Alan Berens" >>>
>                            -< usually not obvious >-

> One example is the electrical system. The best systems use DC circuit
> breakers, tinned wire, color coding, soldered connections, wires run in
> raceways or secured with a cable tie every 6 to 12 inches, voltmeters,
> ammeters, sealed battery switches, and so on. Expensive and very
> time-consuming to install.  What you usually get is fuses, untinned wire,
> crimped connections, etc. This is fine for a very few years in a salt water
> environment, and then corrosion begins to make the system unreliable. And
> finding electrical problems is no great fun. 

	Bad example;  tinned wire will typically fatigue sooner due
to solder wicking  -  crimped connections are in fact cold welds,
totally gas tight and corrosion resistant.  See IEEE reliability
reports for details, etc. 

> Another is how well hardware is installed. All deck hardware should be 
> through-bolted with heavy backing plates, and the holes drilled through a 
> cored deck should be well sealed (with resin) and have compression bushings
> (otherwise tightening the bolts will crush the core). 

	Right.

re .17:

> 	Bad example;  tinned wire will typically fatigue sooner due
> to solder wicking  -  crimped connections are in fact cold welds,
> totally gas tight and corrosion resistant.  See IEEE reliability
> reports for details, etc. 

I guess the ocean doesn't read IEEE reports. Would you like to see some 
corroded crimped connections that don't conduct worth a damn? Look at the 
wiring in any older boat that lives on the ocean. Fatigue (I assume you 
mean mechanical fatigue) shouldn't be a concern if the wire is properly 
secured.

Theory and reality are not always the same.

re                <<< Note 486.18 by MSCSSE::BERENS "Alan Berens" >>>

> I guess the ocean doesn't read IEEE reports. Would you like to see some 

	Right, however the IEEE does make some attempt to read the 
ocean.  There are specs for testing in corrosive environments;  I don't 
have them handy and won't pretend to remember the details, but I do 
recall salt laden, high humidity, high temperature being in there 
somewhere.

> corroded crimped connections that don't conduct worth a damn? Look at the 

	Thanks, but no thanks.  I could probably come up with as many 
examples of fatigues wires about 1/4 inch back from soldered 
connections - wouldn't prove very much.

> wiring in any older boat that lives on the ocean. Fatigue (I assume you 
> mean mechanical fatigue) shouldn't be a concern if the wire is properly 
> secured.

	I don't know what that means (though I think I know what 
thought you're trying to express).  "Properly secured"  against what ?
any and all vibration frequencies and amplitudes likely to be found in
the boat ?  Good luck with THAT !
	
> Theory and reality are not always the same.

	They only differ when the theory is incomplete or improperly 
	applied.  Can we agree on this ?

	R

re.19:

In my admittedly somewhat limited experience (having owned the same boat 
for ten years), corrosion has been a much bigger problem (many failures) 
than mechanical fatigue failures (one failure, and that was of a longish 
wire going into the engine alternator -- my soldered repair has lasted 
longer than the original). 

Yes, I'll grant that theory and reality don't always agree due to 
incompleteness of most theories -- life is so complicated that virtually 
every theory makes many simplifying assumptions.

��	Bad example;  tinned wire will typically fatigue sooner due
��to solder wicking  -  crimped connections are in fact cold welds,
��totally gas tight and corrosion resistant.  See IEEE reliability
��reports for details, etc. 

    You're dreaming if you think every crimped connection in a
    marine electrical systems is a 'cold weld'.  Have you ever
    seen the guys who work in boat manufacturing?  Close running
    fit is probably more accurate. You and the IEEE may think you
    can make a cold weld in a clean room with a hydraulic crimper
    (a la CuAl bonders), but visegrip vinnie is just making a
    cheap connection.

    I also don't believe using IEEE data in this situation is at
    all appropriate.  I've yet to see any ship-building standards
    reference IEEE.

    And now back to the 120% prop slip debate...

    This is my 4th boat, i've always soldered, then put on somehting
    like "liquid lectric tape" or some other goop around the connection,
    and secured it to the bulkhead. The boat i currently own, has a stern
    bilge pump, and its splice was left dangling in the bilge water,
    a fine example of crimp connections. I had to cut back better than
    6" to find some clean wire. I used my method of connecting these
    wires. A small piece of advice, throw away all the IEEE literature
    and talk with some folks who have been at it for awhile.
    
    
    Vise-grip jim, who then solders and goops.

    Moved by moderator...
    
    For other info type "DIR/TITLE=USED"
    
================================================================================
Note 901.0        I need a quick lesson on how to buy a boat...          1 reply
SARAH::WHITE                                         27 lines  29-AUG-1991 16:37
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Hi,
    
    	I'm interested in FINALLY buying a boat, unfortunately I don't know
    too much about them.  I'm looking for about an 18ft power boat (I/O, I
    don't like outboards) to but on a lake.  
    
    	How do I go about finding the right boat at the right price??  My
    main use will be for skiing, and I want it powerful enough to pull a
    skiier with 5+ others on the boat...  I'm looking to spend up to 8,000,
    but would prefer something around 6,000.  I've always liked four-winds,
    but have no idea what they go for.
    
    	I guess I would like to know the following:
    
    	1. What hp should I be looking for??  (150hp more, less??)
    	2. How do I know what a good price is?? 
    	3. Once I find a boat I like, how do I know it's in good shape.  I
    	   want to avoid buying a lemon, but who can I get to look at it??
    
    	Finally, I saw a "Caprice" that I liked.  It looked to be just what
    I was looking for, but since I've never heard of the name, I haven't
    persued it.  Is this a good name??  What are some other "good name"
    power boats??
    
    thanks for your help
    
    Ray

    Moved by moderator...
    
================================================================================
Note 901.1        I need a quick lesson on how to buy a boat...           1 of 1
SSGV02::PARNELL                                      16 lines  29-AUG-1991 16:48
                                   -< exit >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Buying a boat is as confusing (if not more) than buying a car.  I have
    a boat currently and am looking to upgrade and it is still confusing.
    
    In note 882 I asked questions about the right power for the boat.  Most
    of the replies will be pertain to your search.
    
    I think that the Caprice that you looked at is probably a Bayliner and
    there are alot of questions around Bayliner.  I have had reputable
    dealers tell me that they will not take them in trade.
    
    To sum it all up.  Ask alot of questions and the more you look the
    more questions that you will know to ask.  Also ask other boat owners
    and get their input.  
    
    Don
    

That "Caprice" if it is a Bayliner is a "Capri".

    MFG had a Caprice model, 18' closed bow with either O/B or I/O.
    
    
    Wayne

    
    	This was definitely a "Caprice" not Capri, and it was a closed bow. 
    
    > .26 MFG had a Caprice model
    
    	Who's MFG??  Are they good??
    
    	I want to go look at this boat soon, but I'd like to have some
    intelligent questions to ask.  Any ideas other than HP, hours on
    engine, year, and fresh or salt water use??
    
    	Also, I guess I should subscribe to some magazine's so I can learn
    more about what I want to buy.  Any suggestions as to which ones??
    
    Thanks
    
    Ray
    
    	OH, Finally, any one know of some reputable dealears in the Nashua
    area (dealers for the type of boat I'm looking for - 6k 18-20ft ski
    boat)

    
    	Thanks for all the help!!  I guess I'll be heading to lake Winni 
    to talk to some boat dealers.  Does anyone know if there's a fall boat
    show comming to the area.  It seems like that's a good place to look at
    lot of different boats.  Also, where's a good place to look for used
    boats, other than the Globe??  Isn't there some type of "Boat Trader"
    magazine?  If so, where do I pick one up?  I also read in the notes
    file that banks are a good place to look is to start calling banks.  Is
    this true?  If so, what do I say.  Ask them if they have forclosed boat
    loans??  I know most banks won't tell you what they have for forclosed
    homes, is it different for boats??
    
    Thanks again
    
    Ray

    Try the banks. Here in Seattle, Seafirst Bank has a repo and lease
    return showroom where you can go and buy cars and boats that are repo'd
    or have been turned in from lease. You put in a sealed bid and they
    open them once a week and tell you if you bought it. I have even seen
    big yachts on the list of boats available as well as all kinds of
    runabouts.
    

    The Boston in-water boat show scheduled for 2 weeks ago was canceled.
    As fas I know there are no others comng up.
    
    I wouldn't bother with the Globe.  The Want Advertiser, which you 
    should find in the Nashua area has about 20+ pages of used boats.  
    The only negative with going this route is that you can spend a 
    whole evening or day truckin' all over the state just to look at 
    a few boats, which often don't even resemble the description in 
    the ad.
    
    A day spent driving around Lake Winnie and stopping at each marina 
    wil allow you to see hundreds of boats.  It will also allow you to
    visualize the makes and models you see in other ads.  If you see 
    something you like, make notes of the make, model, condition, price, 
    etc. and compare that to what you find in the Want Advertiser.  
    Remember that asking prices you see advertised are NOT the same as 
    selling prices.  The dealers will sometimes have higher prices, but 
    they also generally offer some kind of warranty, whereas private 
    sales you're usually SOL if anything goes wrong.  
    
    Rick

Tangent, in response to question: the nearest fall boat show is now the one in
Newport R.I. Sept 19 - 22.

    I did the tour of Lake Winni marinas about a year ago. We had our
    shopping list memorized, bowrider,length, horsepower, and price. On
    average we spent about 2-3 minutes at each marina. About as much time
    as it takes for a phone call, which leads me to my next comment. Based
    on what we saw on our tour, pick up a phone and call the marinas listed
    in a NH Yellow Pages that are within driving distance. The largest
    selection of used boats was fairly local. Owens in Manchester was the
    largest [where we bought], Hooksett Performance Boats is 1/4 mile down 
    the road, Sunapee Marina on Lake Sunapee had two we were interested in.
    Around Lake Winni the only thing we liked was Silver Sands in Gilford,
    Melvin Village, and a small place in Alton Bay who's name now escapes
    me. 
    
    I wouldn't do the drive tour again. Call first, give 'em your wish
    list, and from there visit the places that have what you like. All the
    places we liked had Yellow Page adds. The ones that didn't had no
    selection. I also liked knowing that if I bought a lemon I didn't have
    to drive all day to the northeastern corner of Lake Winni to wring
    someone's little neck to persuade them to see my point. 
    
    Our second and third choice boats were private sales, and the one we
    bought was on consignment with no guarantee, but a nice long test ride
    with a knowledgable mechanic on board.
    
    ~jeff
    
    PS - Can I interest you in a nice 19' bowrider with a 260 Hp I/O ?  
    
    PS#2 - Rick S., where are you trading your Nautique in again ? :^)
       

    
    	How much are you asking for the bowrider, and what kind is it??
    	19' with 250 hp, how does that do for pulling skier(s).  What
    year??
    
    Ray

    
    	I finally got more information on the Caprice.  It's made by
    Citation (out of one of the carolina's).  It's 19.5' with a volvo 275
    (236hp 131cc). The engine has less than 100 hours.  The owner says it
    will do about 35, and can pull a skiier.  
    
    	Does anyone know if this is going to be boarder line with power.  I
    want it for cruising and skiing one of NH's lakes.  I'd like to have 5
    adults in the boat while pulling a skiier, and it seems like everyone
    says to make sure you have enough HP, or you'll hate yourself down the
    line.  Will this do the trick??
    
        This boat has a pretty deep hull, but the owner says with a
    "dolphin or shark fin" (I'm not sure the real name) over the prop, it
    will plane even quicker...  I'm not sure exactly sure what he meant,
    but it sounds like I'll get increased torque for pulling skiiers; Is
    that right??
    
    Thanks AGAIN
    
    Ray
    

    I would ask whats wrong with that boat or prop selection first it
    should be able to to do 40+ with that engine.I had a 19.5' Dynasty
    cuddy that could do 48 with a 170 Mercurey.I now have a 2100 aft cabin
    Renken with a Omc v6 4.3/175 and it will do 35+ and it ways 2 tons.So
    to get to my point it would seem he didn't spend much time on selecting
    the correct prop for the boat.Hope this is of some help and it is a
    dolphin or stingray  add on that helps the quick out of the hole
    response.Their bolted on to the cavitation plates of the I/O.You can
    obtain these at any marine store for $30-60 and about 1 hour to
    install.

    
    >Citation (out of one of the carolina's).  It's 19.5' with a volvo 275
    >(236hp 131cc). The engine has less than 100 hours.  The owner says it
    
    	Something can't be right here...... 236 HP from a 131cc engine????
    
    	Where can I buy one?
    
    	Rick

    Something funny with those numbers.  First of all 131cc (1.3 litres)
    couldn't possibly be the displacement of a 235 hp engine (unless its
    one of those "funny car" engines :-).   Secondly a 19.5' boat probably
    with a stern drive probably weighs somwhere around 2400 lbs which gives
    you a horsepower to weight ratio of almost 10:1, which ought to make
    that boat move well over 40.  My boat has a similar size/weight and
    will do almost 35 with 115 propshaft hp. 
    
    Assuming the speed and horsepower numbers are right (and the
    displacement is a typo), the other possibility is that the engine is
    way underproped.  (Ask the skier he had up if he's been treated for
    whiplash on starts on that boat :-).
    

re       <<< Note 486.38 by TOOK::SWIST "Jim Swist LKG2-2/T2 DTN 226-7102" >>>

>    Something funny with those numbers.  First of all 131cc (1.3 litres)

	Its funnier than that.   131cc  =  0.131 litres

	~=  very large chain saw  ~=  average lawn mower 


	R	{metric man}

PS  Complete this series;  23m  18.25m  16m  14.25m  13m  12m  ?m  ?m

    Oops.  The "centi" makes me think of 1/100's but I should remember the
    solid->liquid conversion is 1 ml == 1 cc.
    
    Actually, I would never believe anybody's claim that their boat goes
    x mph.   Too many unstated variables - prop pitch was mentioned, but
    there's also loading (people/equipment/gas tank), distribution of
    load, number/weight of skiers, kind of paint on bottom and in what 
    condition, how is boat trimmed, etc.  You rarely get the values of
    all these variables.
    

    
    >PS  Complete this series;  23m  18.25m  16m  14.25m  13m  12m  ?m  ?m
    
    				0 off, 15 off, 22 off, 28 off,.......

re <<< Note 486.41 by KAHALA::SUTER "We dun't need no stinkin' skis, (sometimes)" >>>
>                               -< Right track? >-

	If I didn't know you had a one track mind I'd say that was 
	brilliant.

	Who taught YOU    x 39.37/12  ?

Hey Rick...check out note 37.51.  I listed the "standard" take-off loop lengths
there.

...Roger...

    Moved by moderator.  Also see note 286.
    
================================================================================
Note 1014.0               1st boat buyer/engine advice                No replies
ICS::VANDERPOT                                       20 lines   6-AUG-1992 09:48
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Hi,
    	I'm about to become a 1st time boat owner and I need some 
    advice.  I'm looking to spend about $2500 on a boat that could
    pull a skier with two passengers.  I am currently looking at a 
    17 ft MFG with a 60HP '71 Evinrude and a 15" pitch prop.  
    
    	The owner ran the engine for me and there was a fair amount
    of white-ish smoke at first but once the engine warmed the amount
    of smoke diminished.  I expected this for a 2 stroke engine but the
    amount of smoke still suprised me.  (I am used to a car 4 stroke
    when smoke usually means trouble.
    
    	Any comments appreciated.  Even if you think I could do 
    better for the money. 8*)
    
    Thanks in advance,
    
    Justin
    
    

Re .44>
	I wouldn't worry about smoke from a 2 stroke. 
It kind of goes hand in hand with O/B's. 
	I imagine it could also be water since they 
are water cooled but that's rather remote; I doubt if 
the smoke would stop if it was water. Most likely 
its overly rich fuel fed to the engine during startup.
	There could also be more oil than necessary 
in the fuel. This could cause fouled plugs but isn't 
all that serious.
Regards,
Paul 

    Even oil-injection, which reduces the gas-oil ratio down to 200:1 at
    idle, does not keep those engines from smoking.   
    

    	Thanks for the input.  I decided to buy a 16' Glassmaster '75
    with a 70hp Evinirude also '75.  The engine runs much more smoothly,
    and there is more beam to this boat.  
    
    Thanks again,
    
    Justin
    

    Moved by moderator.  Type DIR/TITLE=USED for other used boat topics.
    
================================================================================
Note 1031.0                  inner tube or $$$$$ ??                      1 reply
APACHE::BROWN                                        29 lines  24-NOV-1992 11:08
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    OK I've read most of the aluminum vs fiberglas notes and trailerable vs
    'you gotta get a big truck for this one' notes.
    
    We bought a house in Nova scotia this past summer that
    has.. a dock attached to the property and about 300 islands in the 
    cruising area. To go there again without some kind of floating device
    is insane..even a tire tube would be better than no boat.
    
    My question is with limited resources and TFSO all over the place
    what would be my best shot at a boat. Most of the shoreline is
    either mud flat (high rise/fall tides) or rocky shore on the islands.
    
    With aluminum I can keep the Honda and tow safely..but will the rocky
    shore beat the hell out of the hull and perhaps hole thru?
    With fiberglass and a Honda I'm looking at a mini-van or a truck
    assuming a 16 ft run-about??
    
    Looked at Boston Whalers (13-15ft) mucho bucks.
    Looked at a Chris Craft 19ft Sea Sprite(sp?) simular to a whaler
    but too much boat to launch with just me and 12 year old son.
    
    FWIW...most of the fisherman now use Yamaha outboards..use to be they
    ALL had either Evinruids(sp?) or Johnsons for all weather use.
    
    Thanks for any input
    
    The Canuck
    
    

    Moved by moderator.
    
================================================================================
Note 1031.1                  inner tube or $$$$$ ??                       1 of 1
SALEM::GILMAN                                        10 lines  24-NOV-1992 11:35
                                 -< Aluminum >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    You don't say if you will be dragging the boat 1/4 mile over rocks and
    mud flats or whether you will have a dock at either end.  Probably your
    boat is going to see some of both the draggin and dock use.  Aluminum
    or fiberglass will stand up to reasonable abuse.  Aluminum dents but
    unless severely pounded won't leak.  The fiberglass is (as I understand
    it) less rugged than Al pound for pound.  If you just want a knock
    around boat and don't care how it looks I would go for the aluminum.
    
    Jeff
    

    
    How about the Boston Whaler imitation, the Wahoo?  They're
    not as expensive as the BW, but fairly reputable.
    
    Jeanne
    

    Jeff,Jeanne..thanks both for your input...
    
     The boat would sit in the mud at low tide..with me in it if I dont
    time it correctly..up on the rocks only to land it or by "ooppss".
    
    OK I'll dir/title search for Wahoo..thats good input as I kinda liked
    the small Whaler for portability.
    
    regards
     The Canuck

    
    	If you are going to be banging around in it and exploring the
    nearby islands,I would go with aluminum.If you are also concerned 
    with the weight of the whole thing,again inch for inch I would 
    stick with aluminum.Nothin'like getting a boat for a decent price
    and then making up for that with rhe need for a new vehicle to tow
    it with.
    
    
    .02
    
    Keith
    

    Hmmm, I had typed up a fairly lengthy reply on searching out the
    "cheap" used boats that I was about to enter..  Cheap boats and
    motors are my specialty.  8^)  I only have about $500 in my boat 
    that I take all over Lake Winnipesaukee, and is capable of turning
    a head or two also..
    
    But seeing that you're including used Whalers and Wahoos in your
    list of options, our opinions on "limited finds" and cheap boats
    apparently differ.  (BOATING magazine calls a 28' cruiser a "small"
    boat - to me it's a BIG boat!).  Could you define what price range 
    you're looking at?  And size requirments, portability, etc. Most 
    Whalers and Wahoos are not considered portable, in the sense of 
    being able to cartop or drag them around with one or two people - 
    especially all rigged up with a motor and gear.
    
    Rick

    Rick
    
     Sorry didn't mean to mislead you..my options are fully open.
     The Whaler we looked at was $9000.00 for a 13-15ft with 20HP plus
     trailer(sorry dont remember if it was a 13 -15 footer--it was to me a
     lot of $$$$.
     
     The area would be south Yarmouth Nova Scotia and yes I'd trailer it
     there from NH to either Portland or St John's NB.
    
     The length I expect would somewhere around 16 ft lots of
     freeboard/transome height ideal. Don't need rugs or leather/vinyl
     seats as most fishing would be sand shark when bored or
     mackerel/stripers in quanity (when running). Real problem is
     there would be only my 12 year old son and no promise of local fisherman
     on the dock to help at any particular time...fairly rural area.
    
     regards
     BB

    Sounds like you just need a used boat in sound shape at a decent price.
    As long as it meets your price criteria and is in sound shape almost 
    any boat would meet your needs, which really are pretty basic.  Ask
    Rick, he can help you on this one as his hobby is fixing up old boats,
    and he certainly would be able to point you to sources of used boats
    like this.
    
    Jeff

    
    That Boston Whaler price is way-overpriced...I sold
    my 13.5 ft. Whaler (1985) for $4200, complete with
    85' 35HP Mercury.  Look in the Want-Ads for used
    Whalers, there are lots of good deals in there.  You
    should be able to find a 15 ft. Whaler for about $6K.
    
    I'd also suggest buying a very-used Whaler, but
    a newer motor.  Whalers are known for their longevity.
    
    What a blast it must be to cruise around Nova-Scotia
    in a Whaler!  My ancestors are from the Halifax area.
    
    Jeanne
      

    Jeff
    
     Yup just about any would do I guess...the boats we looked at in the
     marina's around lake winnie were nice but would not look good with
     a couple hundred mackeral sitting in the deck/leather seats or
     dashboard stereo!
    
     Regards
     The Canuck

re: .54
>> The Whaler we looked at was $9000.00 for a 13-15ft with 20HP plus

Sorry, when you mentioned "limited resources" and "TFSO" in your base 
note I made the wrong assumption and moved your note to this "used boat
(low end)" topic.  If you're looking at boats in the $9K range, you've
got a pretty good chunk of change to spend, IMHO.  That should get you 
a pretty nice boat.  If you're willing to buy something that's a few
years old, you can get a lot more boat for your money - or the same boat
for a lot less money than a new one.  Let someone else take the initial 
hit on depreciation, if you can find the right used boat.

I would definitely have to agree with the previous suggestions to go with 
aluminum.  Whalers are excellent boats, but they're still only fiberglass,
which has gelcoat that chips and scratches easily.  Your intended use, with
the boat possibly ending up on rocks at low tide (you were serious, right?)
is going to be murder on a fiberglass boat.  In fact, any boat is going to
take quite a beating. The aluminum boat will stand up better to the groundings
and beachings, but is going to corrode and oxidize fairly quickly if left in 
the salt.  

Sometimes people badly misjudge what their actual use of a boat will be.  
If your intended use is as harsh as it sounds, with groundings on rocks, 
beachings, moored in salt water, shark fishing, isolation from other boaters, 
etc., you're going to need a solid, dependable, "no frills" boat that can 
take a lot of abuse.  This is a decision you should think through carefully.
A "cheap" boat could be more expensive in the long run.

Rick

    Do you live in Nova Scotia?  My college friends and I own 4.5 acres
    on Molega (SP?) Lake which is not far from Yarmouth.  I haven't been up
    there in 14 years now and only one of our group has been there in five
    years.  It's a beautiful, undeveloped lake but just too far to get to
    from here (N.H.).  I could give you directions to our land if you would
    like to camp out there and report back as to what is going on up there.
    The lot is on a sheltered cove deep enough for a small 13 - 15 footer.
    I should probably be advertising the land for sale since most of the
    original group has gone off and purchased other lake front or Cape Cod
    property closer to home. (I'm the only poor member of the group :-)
    
    I should also open up the invitation to anyone who would like to stay
    there.  It is very close to a KOA campground with all the required
    ammenities and salmon fishing is popular in the area.  I have a movie
    of the land complete with a brown bear running down the dirt road ahead
    of our car (I didn't see the bear when I was filming.)
    Wayne

    Wayne
    
     Nope don't live there. I lived there for the summers while in school
     with the relatives and am accepted and known as a 'local'. My area
     was/is 14 miles out of Yarmouth on the French side in the Tusket
     Island areas. I am looking for a boat because we bought a retirement
     home this past July and the dock attached to the property is going to
     waste.... ;*)
    
     I have been by Lake M ..and would have no problem getting a status for
     you as to the area developement..let me know and I'll look into it
     this summer ... I possibly would be interested in buying it...send
     me mail off line with particulars....and thanks for the OK to camp!
    
     Any of you folks plan to go there give me a call or go into the canada
     notes file for info on NS....it ain't got much for entertainment but
     its got miles and miles of unspoiled serenity.
    
     regards
     The Canuck
    

    After a little further thought, and talking about your situation
    with another boats-noter in my building, I want to mention something
    else.
    
    Rather than try and find a boat that can handle beachings or tide
    changes on rocks, you would do well to try and avoid that situation 
    altogether. Tides don't flow smoothly in and out like filling and 
    draining a bathtub.  The boat won't gently settle on the rocks, and 
    then be gently lifted up.  Wave action is going to relentlessly rock 
    and pound the boat on the rocks with every tide change.  Even aluminum 
    is going to get beat to hell *REAL FAST* under those conditions.
    
    If you can't avoid the beachings on rocks, my suggestion would be to
    buy the cheapest boat you can find.  Sort of a "disposable" boat,
    because that's what it'll amount to.  A new(er) boat would become 
    worthless in a very short time.
    
    There are boats made in the northwest for use on shallow rocky rivers
    that are designed to withstand direct hits from rocks.  They are built
    like a tank, but unfortunately cost nearly as much.  The one tested 
    recently in Trailer Boats magazine was over $20K.
    
    What is the exact situation - will the boat be exposed to rocks on
    each tide change while tied to the dock, or are you talking about an 
    occasional beaching while you're off clamming or exploring?
    
    Rick 
    
    P.S. I'll contact you offline - I know of a no frills fishing boat
         that may suit your needs. 

    Rick
    
     Reading over my previous notes I was not very clear on the rocks
     part of Novi...The dock is mud the kind you dont step into..so
     at ebb tide the dock area on my property theres no problem relative
     to rocks.. muddy - but no damage.
     The cruising areas have several areas of rocks and the islands
     also have either sea rounded rocks or hard ground. While boat
     is actively being used I'd tie up at one of the several provencial
     gov'mt docks ..the most damage there would be a lobster boat or
     a "irish mosser" coming in hard or not using pads. The real issue
     is running aground...there aint many charts availble and/or the fog
     usually comes in hard and fast...my thinking was (until you guys-
     cleared it up) was that a aluminum(sp?) hull would rip/puncture very
     easily and down we go!.
     By all means please advise - on a boat or whatever.
    
     Regards
     The Canuck
     

    You conditions of use are not unlike those on the Maine Coast where I 
    grew up.  Your usage is routine Down East IMO.  They conditions you
    describe don't strike me as unusually severe.  Every small boat risks
    an occasional grounding and settling out at low tide on a mud flat.
    The Al is susceptible to corrosion, especially if you keep the boat
    in all season or year.  But Al will bend and dent long before a seam
    splits.  It takes a real collision to hole Al.  Al canoes are used
    in running rapids on rivers and if it wasn't tough it wouldn't survive
    that use.
    
    Whats my point?  Either Al or fiberglass will serve your purposes I
    think.  Now you need to find a cost effective boat for your needs.
    By the way most small Al boats won't sink because of the built in
    floatation, so unless you get some old thing which has had the floation
    ripped out thats not a risk... that is, literally sinking.
    
    Jeff

    Personally, I would find an old wooden dory that would take a small 10
    HP motor.  You can generally repair the boat by replacing a plank here
    or there.  Once a year give it a coat of paint.  If you don't have to
    travel far or fast, who cares what the boat looks like.  It won't get
    stolen!
    Wayne

    .62 changes the focus of this discussion somewhat from landing on
    rocks, but it may be worth relating an idea I had several years ago,
    based on thinking a lot about getting around the islands of Maine by
    outboard.
    
    The boat should be a planing type with a long gently rounded forefoot. 
    A rather massive flat fender about 18" wide by about 3' long made of  
    heavy poly rope and tire scraps would be tied to the forefoot area, 
    right where it would hit anytime you beached the boat.  At displacement
    speeds, the fender would be mostly submerged, and of course add
    considerable drag (not to mention spoil the steering a bit.)  But at
    full plane the entire gizmo would be out of the water.
    
    The only fly in this ointment might be the effect of pushing the bow
    into a wave at speed, but the idea still intrigues me.  Maybe a smaller
    version would be an acceptable compromise.
    
    John.

    John
    
     In my case I'd also have to consider the rise and fall of the Nova
    Scotia tides....mud flat with creek to vast bay area....to no creek
    and water over the dock area's with full moon/storm surge....You might
    get onto the landing in rocky shore but delay for too long and you will
    be there for hours.
    
    Canuck

    A public Merci to the folks in this notes file that replied to my
    request...
    
    A big Merci to rick who went out of his way to search out a boat at
    Whitneys.
    
    Now another question..a boat at Whitneys had a logo saying it was 
    a "Warrior" this boat looks like a Whaler but has extensions aft of the
    transome on both starboard and port sides...if this was a lobster boat
    I'd say they were for cutting herring or shucking scallops. My question
    is that this boat looks like a bayou cajun boat what with the aft
    extensions and centered bow gangplank is there anyone out there that 
    has seen this type boat before? And would you know who the manufacturer
    is/was?
    
    Thanks
     The Canuck

                           45-60 HP Motor and Boat Wanted
    
    Hi,
    
        I live on the lake and have a canoe to use. Now I am thinking
    of switching to a motor boat. I am not an expert. I am interesting
    to purchase a starter boat and am willing to pay $1200-$1500. This
    will include a trailer, boat and motor. If you could assist me of
    whereabout I can buy it, I would appreciate it.
    
    Thanks for your time, reading this!
    
    Dave