Conference vicki::boats

    Jon,
    
    Do you have an oil pressure gauge in your instrument set? If you
    do, I fear that the dealer/marina that did your work last fall will
    have NO liability.
    
    Sorry you had the negative experience... 
    
    Bill 

    Jon,

      My condolences...that's a "big-time" hit on you.  My guess is that
    if, and a BIG IF, you could show that a properly installed oil filter
    never loosens due to vibration, mechanical failure, etc then you might 
    have a case.

    Did you look at the rubber seal? Did it disintegrate or break up, loosing 
    the mechanical bond and resulting it it getting "loose"?  Did the
    threads get stripped when it was installed?  Anything would 
    be better than going back to the dealer and telling him it happened 
    because he forgot to tighten it.

    I do my own maintenance and have never seen one of my filters loosen up. 
    I mean, how many people out there check the tightness of thier oil filters
    as part of routine maintenance?  

    But, does it ever happen?  
  

    I hold most boat dealers with most car dealers, slightly less honorable
    that gold-by-phone salesman or bankers. Sorry to be such a cynic, but 
    I'd be willing to bet that you will have one fight on your hands trying 
    to get your dealer to accept any level of responsibility,  even if there 
    is no possible cause other than his forgetting to tighten it.

                               
                                                       Tom Urban

Another thing to check is to make sure there aren't two gaskets between
the block and the filter.  What sometimes happens is the old gasket sticks
to the block when you remove the filter.  When you install the new filter,
the extra gasket invariably pops out of place, causing a massive oil leak.
I know because I got nailed on this once when I was about 16 years old and 
working at a Ford dealer.  Fortunately the customer noticed the drop in oil
pressure and shut the car off immediately, and I got off with a lesson on
how to change a filter.

If you can find something like this it may help to prove that the dealer's
negligence caused your problem, and I'd say you have a pretty good case.  
If the boat is still under warranty and an authorized dealer did the service
work, you may even be covered under the warranty.  

If it's not still under warranty, and the dealer wants to be a ba$tard about
it, you may have a good fight on your hands.  As stated in .1, the dealer
may deny any responsibility, and blame it on you for not watching the oil
pressure gauge.  If it ends up in court or arbitration, you could end up 
having to pay for the initial repair yourself to salvage the boating season,
and go after them for the money later.  

If the dealer balks at repairing it for free, immediately call the Consumer
Protection Agency, they have a lot of pull and can put some pressure on the
dealer.  I went through them recently, and they were very helpful.  They will
tell you what your rights are, and give you information on how to present your
case to the dealer, what statutes and laws to quote, etc...   Fortunately in
my case the dealer made good on my problem without much of a fuss and I didn't
have to file a formal complaint.

Good Luck, and let us know how you make out!

Rick W.

    Thanks for the input so far.
    
    re: .1
    
    Bill,
    
    Yes I do have an oil pressure gauge, however it seems to me that
    it would take only a few seconds for the oil to pump out,
    and I don't look at the gauge 100% of the time. What's funny is
    that just prior to the problem I had taken the boat out for a test
    drive in order to find out which way to adjust the trim tab. I was
    out for 15-20 minutes operating at various speeds, mostly above
    � throttle. During this test I did look at the gauges, and everything
    was okay. I also happened to pump out the bilge on the way back
    and only water came out. From this, it seems to me that the problem
    occurred when I went back out and operated at a low speed, and took
    less than one minute to seize the engine.
    
    re: .2
    
    Tom,
    
    Now that you mention it, there could have been a problem with the
    rubber seal. I did not take the filter off, but I could see part
    of the seal sticking out around the edges of the filter. It's worth
    checking into.
    
    I know what you mean about checking the filter tightness as a part
    of routine maintenance. It seeme that if anything, they tighten
    themselves instead of loosening - always harder to remove than put
    on.
    
    re: .3
    
    Rick,
    
    I will check into the possibility of two rubber seals, too. As
    mentioned above, there was something funny about the way the seal
    was sticking out around the filter. The only problem is that the
    boat's up in Maine at the dealer's. 
    
    The dealer has already balked at repairing it for free. He called
    yesterday with an estimate, which included machining down the
    crank and installing under-sized bearings. I don't like this approach.
    If things get nasty, I'll give the CPA a call, along with the BBB.
    
    
    I've also checked with my insurance company, and believe it or not
    they say it _may_ be covered. That would be amazing!
    
    Jon
                                             

    
    A friend of mine had an oil change done on his car by the dealer.
    He was driving on the SouthEast Expressway in Boston two weeks later
    when his oil pressure light and buzzer came on without warning.
    He drove another half-mile or so where he found a "safe" place to
    pull off the highway.  His oil filter had fallen off, his engine
    was oil free and seized.  He went to the dealer with a, well I
    guess you could call it a determined attitude.  It was clear to
    the dealer that he was going to take the issue to court and to all
    the appropriate consumer protection agencies in the state.  As a
    result the dealer gave him a new engine and paid for a rental car
    while the work was being done.
    	Seems to me that you have an equally strong case.  I believe
    that my friend also mentioned getting Toyota involved.  You might
    gain some additional leverage by contacting the boat manufacturer
    who makes this dealer an authorized dealer.  A letter from a lawyer
    can be an effective second step if you get nowhere.  It doesn't
    cost that much and might convince the dealer of your seriousness.
    
    	Good-luck

    
      I think you have a pretty good case, but don't settle for having
    the engine rebuilt; get a NEW one. When an engine seizes from no
    oil pressure, the heat generated in the bearing saddles almost ALWAYS
    causes some distortion of the block! What happens is the bearing
    saddles that the crank sits in don't line up properly any more.
    This can also happen to a lesser degree with the cam bearings.
    You also shouldn't have to put up with a crank that's been turned;
    they're not as strong, and like brake drums can only be turned
    so much. In the future you may need a new crank when doing an ordinary
    rebuild, because there wouldn't be enough metal to turn the crank
    again. Not only that, but the crank itself may be distorted. (you
    should see the rainbow colors that the block and crank get in the
    area around the bearings from HEAT when an engine seizes from no oil)
      Beleive it or not, the pistons, rings, valves, and rocker arms are
    all probably in perfect condition. These parts are normally only
    oiled by splash, and would have had more than enough oil on them
    for the very short time that the bearings took to seize.

    
    				Good luck,
    				Kenny

	Well, just a quick update on what's happened...

	I called the dealer, and got nowhere - as expected. He denied
  any responsibility for what happened, though his service dept. was the
  last to change the filter. At my brother's suggestion I met with an
  attorney who sent the dealer a moderately threatening letter.
	Last week, I picked up the engine (for a charge of $270 for 6 hrs
  labor to dismantle the engine - what a hose job!). It didn't look all 
  that bad - needs minimum of crank turning, new rods, cyl. honing, and new
  gaskets. My brother estimated the cost of doing it myself at about $300.00.
  That's quite a far cry from the dealer's estimate of $1254.00 in parts and
  $999.00 in labor.
	The atty, who is a boat owner and fairly knowledegable in such things
  agreed that the dealer is responsible. In fact, he told me of one of his
  friends who bought a boat from the same guy, and had a service problem also.
  It seems that the guy brought his boat in for something (it may have been
  the 20 hr check) that required running the boat out of the water with muffs.
  When he put it back in the water, a bearing seized in the stern drive. He
  brought it back, blaming the dealer for the problem, and was told that 
  the problem could only be caused by running the boat out of the water - and
  that HE must have done it! He _KNOWS_ that the clowns doing the work messed
  up, but can he prove it?? Ha! My neighbor in Maine seriously regrets
  purchasing his boat from the same guy. He was in there once when someone who
  had just bought a boat came in with a problem. The owner said something like
  "Get outta here, I don't have time for that!" - probably because it was a
  warranty-covered repair and he wouldn't make any money. The more I hear
  about this guy, the less I'm surprised about what happened.
	Anyway, now it has boiled down to this:

	1) The dealer agrees to the terms in the letter, and installs a new
	   "partial engine" along with all peripheral engine parts taken from
     	   the old engine. (Fat chance... :-)  )

	2) The dealer says "no way" and I go somewhere else to have a new
  	   engine installed and take him to court to recover damages (could
	   take up to 2 years).

	3) The dealer says "no way" and I just go away and rebuild the engine
	   myself for about $300.00 and my own labor.

	It is really the principle of the thing - this guy's charging $45.00
  per hour for lousy service. My brother told me about one time when he and 
  a friend were in a marina at Winni, and saw a big sign that said "All labor
  $45.00 per hour". They then looked to see a high school kid with a broken
  arm (in a cast) and a drill in his other hand trying to install a cleat on 
  a boat. His friend said "That's what you pay $45.00 an hour for!" :-)
  
  Peace

  Jon

There was a cartoon in The New Yorker magazine some years ago of a 
fellow consulting an attorney. The attorney says, "You have a very good 
case, Mr. Smith. How much justice can you afford?" 

Principle aside, it'll cost you far, far more than $300 to sue the 
dealer, and you might not win. It's your word against his as to who 
changed the oil filter, and it might be very hard to convince a jury 
that, beyond a reasonable doubt, the dealer is in fact responsible. (I 
assume that your suit would be for more than the upper limit on Small 
Claims Court.) I'd fix the engine myself (or have a reputable 
mechanic/dealer do it) and take my future business elsewhere. 

    I JUST HAD MY 21' 4WINNS TUNED UP ANY THE GUY PUT IN THE WRONG
    PLUGS,THIS CAUSED A VALVE TO GO. HE SAID IT WASN'T HIS PEOPLE.
    COME TO FIND OUT HE HAD A BAD BOOK FROM CHAMPION SPARK PLUG. SO
    HIS INSUREANCE PAY 700.00 TO FIX MY BOAT. YOU CAN USE SMALL CLAMS
    COURT FOR UP TO 2500.00 AND IT COST YOU 10.00 TO FILE. THIS ALSO
    HAPPENED IN NH.
    
    			BOB 223-0425

	Last week I saw a GM 4.3 Litre V6 block that had cracked from 
ice  *_WITHOUT_*  blowing any freeze plugs.  I don't know if this is a 
new problem for this block, (maybe its new to marine applications and
they havn't test frozen enough of them yet) but please take this as a
warning to winterize, or at least drain the block if you won't spend
$8 a gallon on anti-freeze. 

	Maybe this belongs in the winterizing note - its a  "bad
dealer, bad service"  topic because the guy bought it in Florida as an
end of season special last year and asked that it be winterized as he
was going to trailer it directly to Vermont and store it there until
the spring.  Since he has  *_NO_*  mechanical aptitude it is a ~$6K 
legal hassle, which he WILL fight.

	Reg

    Well, it looks like this one's about over! My brother (a school
    teacher with all summer off) very considerately offered to do the
    leg work and labor involved with rebuilding the engine. All that
    was needed was crank grinding (.010") and rod rebuilding. All in
    all it was about $450. in parts & labor (excluding my brother's).
    We fired her up last night and it ran well - just needs a little
    more tweaking and she'll be ready to go - just in time for Labor
    Day!!! :-}
    
    The "Lawyer" I had retained has been on vacation most of the time
    and I've gotten absolutely nowhere on that approach. I had requested
    a new "partial engine" (as defined by MerCruiser) in the settlement, 
    and he wrote me a letter 3 weeks later saying the dealer's atty had 
    sent him a letter asking "what's a partial engine" - I mean give
    me a break!! Derrrr geeeeee I always wanted to be a boat dealer... :-)
    Anyway, the lawyer's history - by the time it got settled, I'd be
    too old for stuff like waterskiin'. :-)
    
    A little advice... (Learned the HARD way)
    
    	1) If you have work done by the dealer, CHECK IT CAREFULLY!
    
    	2) Don't have any work done by the dealer :-)
    
    	3) Unless you're willing to spend alot of time and aggravation
    	   fighting the dealer, don't let the dealer do something like
    	   winterize your boat as "cheap insurance". If he screws up,
    	   you can bet he'll deny it and find some way to blame it on
    	   you.
                                             
    Jon

    Forgot to say THANKS for all the assistance and inputs, soooo...
    
    		THANKS for all the assistance and inputs!!
    
    Jon :-)