Conference vicki::boats

    Read:
    1) Your owners manual
    2) Note 159
    3) Note 177
    
    Doug.

    
    	My boat is in the same (not yet winterized, hoping to be used
    again this year) state.   The worst thing that can happen to it is a
    total freeze of the water in the cast iron block.  As you probably know
    water reaches its maximum density at 4 degrees centigrade, any warmer
    or any colder than that and it will expand, this is why frozen (metal)
    pipes usually means burst/split pipes.  With a cast iron engine block
    under a padded cover its unlikely that the block will actually freeze
    if the night time temperature only goes down to the low twenties for a
    couple of hours, there's a lot of thermal mass to be cooled and the
    nights here aren't (YET) getting cold enough for long enough to be
    likely to crack the block.  A lot less bad is a block that freezes and
    blows out the freeze plugs, I know someone who let this happen and his
    recovery cost was zero, he just hammered them back in.  HOWEVER !, the
    worst could happen and we like  to sleep at night.  Draining the block
    is probably OK for the few times I do this, the purists will say that
    there is a small amount of additional risk of internal rusting 
    (iron + air + moisture = rust)   but I try to minimize it by drying the
    block off a bit, i.e. I open the block drain as soon as the boat comes
    out of the water, the engine is still hot inside, the thermostat is
    still open. 

    	Reg	{ 65 on Saturday ? }
    

    For peace of mind, just place a drop-light beaming 100 watts of
    screw-in light inside the engine compartment and light it up if
    you are concerned about the freeze.
    
    Mike

    The drop light Idea is Great. Just make sure you are using a rubber
    coated explosion proof bulb . Tehy cost a bit more but if your bildge
    has and Gas vapor and the bulb breaks.
    
                     BoooooooooM !
    
                                             
    I may try this myself, They also sell engine oil heaters that would
    be a better bet, Since you would not require as much power from
    your battery to turn the engine over if the oil were warm.
    
    Much safer also.
    
                                           Walt
    

    the light bulb trick will work, in fact its a better idea than
    you think, it will also keep moisture from accumulating. if you
    want to get real fancy, put it on a timer, no need to run it
    during the day.
    
    jim.

       Lacking a better topic for my inquiries I'll stick it here!!

  Does anyone have any recommendations/opinions/experience about how to
minimize difficulties caused by not having the fuel stabilized back in November
when I should have done it? 

  I know  "SHAME ON ME" for letting it go.  Kind of didn't think about it when
I had the opportunity, couldn't do it for one reason or another when I did. No
excuses, just blew it. Now it's time to pay for it.

  My present situation/concern is 18 gallons of stale gasoline in my tank and
any fuel which was left in the carbs last fall.  Is there something I can do
now to reduce the effects of my neglect?   I do intend to change the oil in the
lower unit before firing her up.  I'm not particularly concerned about not
fogging the engine, but am not looking forward to having the carbs torn down to
clean out any lacquer (or whatever you call the goo left by old gas) that may
have accumulated over the last 5 months..

Shamefully,
		Al

  

RE:  Note 181.6   

Hi Al,
My *opinion* on this is that since you ran the boat until November, and
if you can get the boat out in April and get some fresh gas into it, you
shouldn't have any serious problems.  You can tell pretty well with your
nose whether the gas is OK.  If it smells like varnish, it's started to 
go bad.  

If the gas smells like varnish, siphon the tank empty and refill with fresh 
gas.  If it smells ok, I would just top of the tank with fresh gas and
try to burn off that tankful as early in the season as possible.  In either 
case, add a can or two (follow the directions) of STP or similar gas 
treatment/carb cleaner.  This should help to eliminate any gum or deposits 
left by the aging fuel.  Re-using the fuel is preferable, not so much because
of the cost, but because of the almost impossible task of finding a place to 
dispose of 18 gallons of gasoline.

One other thing, if you've got outboard style portable gas tanks.  If the
gas tanks are airtight, and you hear a "whoosh" of air when you open them,
gas will keep almost indefinitely under these conditions.  A few years ago
I bought a boat that hadn't been run in at least 3-4 years.  When I opened 
the tanks I heard the air rush out.  I smelled the gas and it smelled just
like new, after 3-4 years!  So I actually used the gas when I got the boat 
going, and it ran fine.  In 5 years of owning outboard powered boats with 
portable airtight tanks I never used fuel stabilizer, and never had the gas 
go bad.  This year was the first time I ever used the stabilizer, since my
new boat has a permanently mounted vented tank.  We'll know in a few weeks
if it worked.

Rick W.

   Before I start, I am not trying to start an argument, nor am I intending
to out guess, out think, refute or debunk any experts, advice or myths.
Instead, I offer this only in response to Al Whitmans question in .6

   Al, I have, over the years, put up all kinds of gas engine whatevers for
extended periods including winter storage.  I always intend to follow the
normal "storing for extended periods" drill, but like you, a fair amount
of the time I didnt do the right thing.  (especially involving the full tank
stabilize, drain carb etc)  And like you, I always felt guilty about it.

   But, I have never experianced any difference the following
seasons, especially because of "stale gas".  My carbs dont seem to have
suffered unduly from those "occasional lapses", and the left over gas
performed its job without fuss or sputter.

   I'm not telling you this to encourage lack of proper precautions at
storage time, but to tell you not to lose any sleep over whats alread done.  
Unless your tank is half full of water to start with, or you carbs are already 
crudded up, my bet is that you wont have a problem.

   Instead, make sure that before you fire it up you have fresh oil circulated
over the cylinder walls, clean oil in the machinery (or, if it wasnt changed
before the big sleep, change it right away), and everything clean and 
tight.  Waking up a hibernating engine has to be done with care too.  I guess 
I could add that a can or two of drygas starting out the season and (if you 
believe in it) some gumout-type product might sooth your guilty consience.


                                             Tom Urban

ps:  I did do it right last fall.

    
      It has been my experience with the many many gasoline engines
    I have been involved with "putting-up" for the winter (or summer
    depending on what it's in), that if the engine sits for LESS than
    6-8 months, there is usually NO problem. 
    
       I DO usually run my outboard dry, but for 19 years with the same
    I/O, my father NEVER put Sta-Bil in his gas, and NEVER had a problem.
    
      The few motorized items that sit for 8-10 months at a time (or
    more) are the ones that seem to have a problem.
    
      I agree with Tom that it is MORE important for the life of your
    engine as to HOW it is stored, and HOW it is started after it is
    stored. Your engine should always be either fogged(very easy to
    do) or oil should be squirted into each cylinder BEFORE it's put
    away. On a 4 cycle inboard or I/O, the engine oil should be changed
    and RUN for a couple of minutes at least, BEFORE putting away. It
    is also a VERY good idea to cange the lower-unit oil BEFORE putting
    a boat away in case there is any water in there.(you don't want
    water sitting on your gears for 4-6 months do you?) Before you start
    the engine CHECK THE OIL! 2 years ago, when helping my father get
    his boat ready; we started the motor (which started and ran just
    fine), but I just didn't think it sounded right (nothing in particular,
    but I knew this boat and it just *didn't sound quite right*. I stopped
    the engine and checked the oil AND THERE WAS NONE!!! A *very* small
    hole had rusted through the oil pan, which very happily emptied
    it's contents into the bilge over the winter! We KNEW it was full
    when we put it away! You want to run the engine slowly, and pay
    extra attention to every gauge and the sound of the engine. Stop
    it and check everything if ANYTHING doesn't seem right.
    
       I also agree with Rick about the fuel in your main tank(s). It
    seems that larger quantities of fuel last longer, AND it hasn't
    been that long anyway.
    
       You may get some water from condensation over the winter which
    a few cans of ISOPROPYL dry gas should completely clear up. Other than
    that, I bet you're machinery is ship shape!
    
    	    Kenny_who_picks_up_his_new_Larson_in_22_days!!

    No on-ups manship here. But i read a few things in the notes following
    Al's question that i DEFINITELY disagree with.
    
    1. Squirting oil in the cylinders is a waste of time. The engine
       needs to be fogged down, its the ash of the fog oil, or mystery
       oil that does the preserving.
    
    2. the other is "DRY GAS", that a NEVER NEVER, Isopropyl Alcohol
       is one of your worst enemies, the warnings are all over the place.
       It likes to eat fuel hoses, unless you have the "TYPE A"
       why take the chance.
    
    
    Back to Al's issue:
    
    MDR makes the following products:  "FRESH START" AND "WATER ZORB"
    
    The first renews the fuel, the seconds removes any water without
    alcohol.
    
    No need to throw it out.
    
    Next season take the precautions.
    
    Jim.

    re: Jim

    	Your second point about alcohol is without a doubt very
    valuable! As you mentioned, there are warnings all over my
    boat also about how alcohol can eat fuel lines.

    	Personally, I'd rather not find out how well my fire
    extinguisher works.....

    	As for your first point..... My Nautique manual recommends
    squirting oil into the cylinders. Maybe it's just a little
    added protection after the fogging is done...?

    Rick

re               <<< Note 181.11 by ARCHER::SUTER "Sunny and 80!" >>>
>                         -< The engine must be sober! >-

>    	As for your first point..... My Nautique manual recommends
>    squirting oil into the cylinders. Maybe it's just a little

	Gee, thats odd - what a coicidence ?

	I think the idea is to keep the rings from sticking.  Its a 
good idea to squirt a little MMO in the plug holes about a week before 
spring time recommissioning too, let it sit.  Turn the engine over a
few times by hand with the plugs out before firing it up, this coats 
the cyliner walls and gives them a chance while they wait for their 
normal crank-shaft splash.  The white smoke helps out the green/black 
fly situation a bit too.

	Alcohol also eats into (out of ?) alumin tanks, avoid it.

	Reg

PS 	TLA of the day:  MMO = Marvel Mystery Oil.

    
    
    Gasoline goes stale because of oxidation and some breakdown of the
    molecules. Both are accellerated by higher temperatures. In this cold
    climate(new England), storing gasoline for a few months in the winter
    should have a limited effect on the "breakdown" of the hydrocarbon
    compunds. I would worry more about condensation in the tanks. Varnish
    and Gum forming is also slowed down considerably at lower temperatures
    
     A good example is a chain saw. Have you ever mixed up some fuel
    mixture and stored the leftover in your garage?-  In the summer,
    I can get about 6 weeks of storage in a hot shed and the gas is 
    really rank. I just used some this weekend taht I mixed up before
    thanksgiving- fresh as can be.
    
     Put some gum out/carb cleaner in your tanks and some dri-sorb
    to remove the water and go for it.
    
     I put 48 gal in my boat tanks last winter, totally forgot to pick up
    some stable store and the engine started right up inthe spring-
    the gas was as fresh as a daisy. I'd worry more about gas sitting in a
    tank for a month or so in the summer than being stored over the winter.
    
    
     Another issue I almost forgot is that gasoline is blended for
    different volatility at different times of the year- in winter a lot of
    light hydorcarbons are blended in the gasoline to improve vaporization
    and starting. Put this stuff in your tank in the summer and at the
    elevated temperature, these compunds vaporize and you will really have
    some gunk. In the summer, they don't blend in these volatile light 
    compounds and the gasoline is much more stable at the higher
    temperatures. If you store a summer or fall blend of gasoline over the
    winter, it will tend to be pretty stabl, since the vapor pressure
    will be on the low side.
                           
     Dick
    
    
    
    
    

    
      Sorry, but it's METHYL Alcohol or METHANOL that's bad for your
    fuel lines, aluminum, etc. Isopropyl is the BEST and SAFEST drygas
    to use!
    
       It's right in the owner's manuals of new cars, boat engines,
    snowmobiles, motorcycles and a few other devices - "DO NOT USE 
    METHANOL! but if you HAVE to, make sure it's no more than 5% Methanol
    with 5% co-solvents". Isopropyl alcohol does a better job of breaking
    water up into small droplets, and it's generally considered safe
    for everything when used in "drygas" quantities or concentrations.
    
    					Kenny
    

        I am in worse shape than .6. I did not let it go, the other guy
        did.
        
        Bought an '86 Oday 222 in Oct. (thats right Oday used to build
        SAILBOATS before they went keel up. But thats OK, Donzi down in
        Florida is laying them off in droves and offering big rebates in
        this 'dreadful' market.) (Dreadful for thems thats sellin, but
        not so bad for thems thats buyin.)
        
        Previous owner had not used the boat or motor since JULY 88!!!.
        (Bought bigger boat, got too busy to sell, liked paying two
        loans??, also lived in Peterboro NH and who goes to Peterboro to
        buy a sailboat???.  Therfore we bought it for less than his loan
        balance in Oct.)
        
        Any way, don't know what preperation he may have done, boat is
        super  squeaky clean, but lets assume he did nothing to the
        engine, a 9.9 electric start Johnson. We also have 2/3 tank, @4
        gal, of fuel. Ready to dispose of this.
        
        What's the best preperation and process in starting this power
        house up as kindly as posible. 
        
        Also for the uninitiated, even though I have an idea, just what
        is 'fogging'? And is it some thing to be done to smaller
        outboards?
        
        Thanks,
        
        Fred-just-a-guy-too-poor-to-be-a-power-boater-and-must-use-the-wind.
        
        PS Name of new boat ------ "WIND SONG" 
        
        We will be mooring in Salem on the Danvers River just above the
        first bridges, down river from uncle Walt Gibson.
        
        

    
    The first thing you do is throw that old gas out. try pulling the
    motor and see if it turns(inside) ok. If it does turn over, you
    are probably ok. Put in some new plugs (I think on that motor, the
    correct plug type is on a plate in the front). Also change the lower
    unit oil.
    
      The next thing to do is try to start it. Put it in a barrel 
    or hook up one of those clamshell-type motor flushers. 
    (please no negative comments on the clamshell flusher - they work
    fine if used properly) The only thing you don't want
    to do if you use a clamshell type flusher is rev the motor real
    fast. (if you leave it in neutral, the lockout won't let you)
    
      If the motor starts and seems to run ok, let it run for a little 
    while and see if you get warm/hot water spitting out of the 
    upper exhaust vents. (this motor doesn't have a water-check port) 
    This motor is thermostatically controlled, so you won't get much/any
    water until the thermostat opens (takes a while ~5-10 min).
     If you do get spitting of warm to hot water after a while and
    it seems to run ok, then it looks like you're all set; go have fun!
    
         If it doesn't start or it doesn't seem to run right, you have
    2 choices depending on what you like to do. You can take it to a
    dealer; who will be more than happy to get it running well for you.
    Or you can ask more questions here. ;^)
    					
    					Kenny

    Personally - if it's not seized, I bet it runs fine!

    Thanks for the info Kenny. I know the motor will turn over, 
    I tried it before I bought it. I will try it out some time 
    April. Got to get the work on the house done first. Then the 
    Captain will take me sailing.
    
    Still would like to know what 'fogging' is. 
    
    Will let you know how I make out. I will also try to get in
    touch with previous owner to find out what he did to prepare 
    the motor or storage.
    
    Thanks again. 
    Fred
    

    
      Fogging an engine for storage:
    
       There is a specially oil in spray-can form that is rapidly sprayed
    into a running engine in order to coat the internal surfaces with
    a (fairly) heavy coating of preservative oil. The idea is to spray
    the oil in faster than the engine can burn it off, and then shut
    off the engine before it is all gone. 
    
       The reason for doing this is because the cyinder wallss are made
    of steel or iron, both of which rust easily. Normally a thin coat
    of oil is there from the running of the engine. Over a long period
    of time (the winter) this oil may not be enough to keep the cylinder
    walls etc. from rusting, hence fogging!
    
       Fogging is very easy to do (just spray a bunch in while the engine
    is at fast idle - then shut it off immediately) and quite effective
    at preventing internal rusting. Fogging oil is available from every
    marine dealer and most marine catalog outlets.
    
       cost  ~$4
    		   Kenny_who_picks_up_his_new_Larson_in_18_days :^) 

re fogging:

A question for all you engine experts: How do you fog a diesel engine? 
My diesel will simply keep running when fogged -- it just uses the 
fogging oil for fuel. Due to its shape, you can't pour oil into the
cylinders through the intake manifold. Removing the fuel injectors is a 
major hassle (air in the fuel system, risk of dirt in the injectors, 
expensive new sealing washers required, etc). Any other suggestions?

re                <<< Note 181.19 by MSCSSE::BERENS "Alan Berens" >>>
>                                 -< diesels? >-

> A question for all you engine experts: How do you fog a diesel engine? 

	Hmmm, tough question - do you "need to" ?  As you say, they'll 
run on fogging oil.  I would think that diesel fuel itself is a great 
lay-up oil - can't you stall it by shutting off the air supply ?, that 
would choke it full of fuel.  My diesel is in the tow vehicle, but one 
way to stall that is to pinch off the fuel line that returns excess 
fuel to the tank - that puts a LOT of surplus fuel in the cylinders, 
witness when I restart it.

> Due to its shape, you can't pour oil into the
> cylinders through the intake manifold. Removing the fuel injectors is a 
> major hassle (air in the fuel system, risk of dirt in the injectors, 
> expensive new sealing washers required, etc). Any other suggestions?

	You probably have very little space to work around it too,
sailboats are like that.  I guess the ideal at spring re-comm would be
to get a priming charge of fuel oil into the engine without spinning
it, I don't know how to do that.  I suppose you've tried small plastic
funnels with a couple of feet of 3/8 inch or so plastic tubing ? 

	Reg

    
     You *could* remove the glow plugs, but I would think that a diesel
    engine is a different case than a gas engine. What does the manual
    say?
    
    					Kenny

re .21:
    
>>>     You *could* remove the glow plugs, but I would think that a diesel
>>>    engine is a different case than a gas engine. What does the manual
>>>    say?
    
My particular little diesel has only one glow plug -- right under the 
air 'filter'. The manual is singularly unhelpful. I just change the oil 
and fuel filters and let it go. So far it have survived ten winters.

��                <<< Note 181.20 by ULTRA::BURGESS "CC rider" >>>
��                      -< Diesel are hard, very hard(y). >-

��it, I don't know how to do that.  I suppose you've tried small plastic
��funnels with a couple of feet of 3/8 inch or so plastic tubing ? 

    I'd be really careful following this advice.  If you get any
    significant quantity of liquid into the cylinder, you risk
    damage from the hydraulic pressure built up by the
    uncompressable liquid when the engine is cranked.  I saw an
    8v71 with a cracked head from this.  Not a happy owner.

    	- Lee

re                      <<< Note 181.23 by SMAUG::LINDQUIST >>>

>��                <<< Note 181.20 by ULTRA::BURGESS "CC rider" >>>
>��                      -< Diesel are hard, very hard(y). >-

>��it, I don't know how to do that.  I suppose you've tried small plastic
>��funnels with a couple of feet of 3/8 inch or so plastic tubing ? 

>    I'd be really careful following this advice.  If you get any
>    significant quantity of liquid into the cylinder, you risk

	T'wasn't  "advice".  T'was a question (rhetorical) about what 
he might have tried to use in order to do what he was trying to get 
done.  Alan is smart enough to know not to try and get a couple of
quarts of oil into his cylinders (aren't you ?). 

Yes, he is.

I think he's also smart enough to turn it over by hand a few times
before trying to spin it with the starter motor ? 

Yes, I'm SURE he is.


	R

    I had a 25 hp twin cylinder Evinrude that wiped a crankshaft seal
    after sitting for a couple of years.  The seals harden and stick
    to the crankshaft.  With a 2 stroke, the crankcase is part of the
    induction system.  Also, the cooling system will leak from this
    into the crankcase.  The tipoff is that the motor runs on one cylinder,
    and repeatedly fouls the dead cylinder's spark plug with water.
     Also alot of water vapor in the exhaust.  Not real cheap or easy
    to fix, either.  
    
    Moral:  Fog or MM oil it when you put it away.
    
    Carl

    I'm sorry you found my note to be 'advice free'.  I found
    yours to be exceptionally rude as well as insulting.

    Specifically:
��done.  Alan is smart enough to know not to try and get a couple of
��quarts of oil into his cylinders (aren't you ?). 

    Yes, I am smart enough.  And, I'm sure many readers are. 
    However, I think it's naive of you to assume that every
    reader has the same knowledge base as yourself.  It
    may be obvious to you to turn the engine over a few
    times by hand, but is that obvious to every reader?

    I'm sorry that you can't tolerate an opinion different
    from your own without resulting to personal attack.

    Have a nice day.

    	- Lee Lindquist



��                <<< Note 181.24 by ULTRA::BURGESS "CC rider" >>>
��                       -< advice free reply follows... >-

��re                      <<< Note 181.23 by SMAUG::LINDQUIST >>>

��>��                <<< Note 181.20 by ULTRA::BURGESS "CC rider" >>>
��>��                      -< Diesel are hard, very hard(y). >-

��>��it, I don't know how to do that.  I suppose you've tried small plastic
��>��funnels with a couple of feet of 3/8 inch or so plastic tubing ? 

��>    I'd be really careful following this advice.  If you get any
��>    significant quantity of liquid into the cylinder, you risk

��	T'wasn't  "advice".  T'was a question (rhetorical) about what 
��he might have tried to use in order to do what he was trying to get 
��done.  Alan is smart enough to know not to try and get a couple of
��quarts of oil into his cylinders (aren't you ?). 

��Yes, he is.

��I think he's also smart enough to turn it over by hand a few times
��before trying to spin it with the starter motor ? 

��Yes, I'm SURE he is.

re -1:

Little ones like mine (1600 cc) aren't easy. Bigger ones are probably 
difficult or impossible.

    Alan, if you want, I'll copy and send you the extended storage
          instructions for my Detroit marine 471; sort of involved, but
          probably generally applicable to your engine.
    J

    WOW, got a little warm on this note while I got sidetracked by work
    last week. 
    
    Thanks for the deffinition of 'fogging'.
    
    Guess what I found this weekend while orgainizing the 'stuff' I got
    with my boat (re .15).
    
    You guessed it, a can of OMC 'FOGGING' spay!!!! Guessed he must'a done
    it right.
    
    Fred Who_plans_to_launch_on_his_b'day_5/18.
    

    Yes, a diesel would consider fogging spray as just another source of
    fuel and keep on chugging away ON IMPROPERLY TIMED INHALED OIL. You
    risk serious (broken piston, rod) damage doing this because of the
    'kickback' effect of a prematurely ignited fogging oil spray as the
    piston comes up on compression already loaded with fuel!  Super
    ping... sort of!  In fact, this risk is so serious to diesels that
    my dealer installed an after market oil spray holding tank in the PVC
    line (on my 86 Isuzu Trooper) so that it could not run on PVC vented
    crankcase oil.  
    
    A question for you guys:  I have a 25 HP Johnson which I like to run
    late in the season (read after freezing weather has arrived).  Does
    anyone know of a a 2 stroke outboard risk of freezing up water passages
    when running late in the season?  Lobstermen on the Maine Coast do it
    all winter... but then thats salt water not fresh.   Wouldn't the 
    water drain out of all water passages enough when the engine was shut
    off to avoid an outright cracked block problem? Obviously a few drops
    trapped freezing would not crack the block..
    
    Any thoughts?
    
    Jeff

    Jeff,
    Are you leaving the motor *in the water* late in the season or 
    hauling it out?  If you're hauling it out, just place the motor
    in a full vertical position, and "click" the key once or twice
    to remove any trapped water from the water pump.  The rest of 
    the motor is completely self draining in a vertical position.
    After that you can tilt the motor up if that's how you normally 
    store it.
    
    If you're leaving it in the water, I think you're all set right
    up the point where there's a danger of the water surface itself
    freezing over.
    
    Rick