Conference 7.286::dcu

    I thought it was indeed advertised as a debit card. If you choose to
    use it instead of a regular VISA card the funds are withdrawn directly
    from your checking account. I think this is a great idea. I know other
    banks have debit cards and I wish the local bank that I deal with had
    them too.
    
    The advantage is that you don't have to carry cash.
    
    Note that you can still choose to use a check or a regular VISA card if
    that's what you want to do. If you want the use a plastic card that is
    just like cash then use a debit card.
    
    -Glenn-

    
    Hum, I don't understand why anyone would use the debit card. 
    
    Why use a card with no "feebies"? The GE Reward VISA card gives
    a 2% rebate at the end of the year.  I have a Visa/American Airline
    card that gives AA FF miles. I also have a VISA/FORD card that gives
    me a 5% rebate toward the purchase of a FORD.
    
    Why even one BOD members has a GM card that gives 5% rebate.
    
    Gim
    
    
    

	I don't wish to have a debit card.  I'm perfectly happy with my 
current ATM card.  If I want to use a VISA card, I'll use my VISA card.

	I seldom write a check for anything other than monthly bills.  I
use cash or credit cards (and take advantage of using someone elses
money for 25-30 days.)  Why would I possibly want a debit card?

					--Doug

    > Why would I possibly want a debit card?
    
    Precisely to NOT have to use cash or credit cards.  While ATMs are
    certainly ubiquitous these days, there are still many times when I'm
    caught in a situation where I need cash and don't have it.  Grocery
    shopping comes to mind.
    
    If you use a _debit_ card to pay, you end up paying the $1 (or
    whatever) fee to CIRRUS/NYCE/PLUS/etc. for the privilege.
    
    If you use your debit-card-with-VISA-imprint and select "Credit Card"
    for the payment method:
    
    a) You don't pay a fee, since it's a "credit-card" transaction -- the
    store pays the fee (which is already built into the cost of what you're
    buying in the first place).
    
    b) It still comes out of your checking account.
    
    c) From past experience with VISA/MC-imprinted debit cards, the float
    is often as long or longer than with a check -- sometimes debit
    purchases have taken a _week_ to show up!  It depends on the path of
    clearing houses and intermediaries between the store's MC/VISA bank and
    your card issuer.
    
    Personally, it's anathema to me to _charge_ a grocery bill.  I don't
    want to pay for my food 30 days after it's been eaten. [A current ad
    campaign by Shawmut National [local N.E. commercial bank] for their
    debit card emphasizes this point.]
    
    
    Up to now I've used the DCU only for car loans.  I use BayBank for
    regular banking, since they've got ATMs everywhere.  I won't get their
    MasterCard-imprinted debit card since they _require_ a reserve credit
    line behind it (at 18% mind you).
    
    However, the combination of the election of the 3Gs, recision of the
    fees, and the new no-credit-line-required debit card with VISA is a
    very tempting combination.  I might very well take the DCU up on it.
    
    [Wondering out loud] I wonder if one can circumvent the "non-DCU" ATM
    fee by using one of these new cards and selecting "Credit Card Cash
    Advance" instead of "Withdrawal from Checking"?  Or is there a fee
    there too?
    
    John
    

    Oh yeah -- I also loathe writing checks for purchases.  Even though
    there are rules, many stores still require umpteen IDs for a check
    purchase, and it takes time I could be better spending elsewhere, even
    contemplating my navel.  Instead it's just hand them the card, get the
    authorization, sign it, take card, receipt, and purchase, and leave.
    
    I write checks for bills.  Or, more precisely, my PC writes them and I
    sign them.
    
    John
    

    RE: .3, .4
    
    The card apparently works just like the card you have today does. If
    you don't want to use the debit card feature, then don't! Personnell, I
    think it's a great idea. Just like cash, but I don't have to carry
    cash. Think of the debit card feature as if you are carrying cash.
    
    -Glenn-

Note that debit card purchases do not have the same legal protections as do
credit card purchases.

	And what are the regulations w.r.t. liability for lost or stolen
debit cards vs credit cards?  I don't want a debit card.  It's not that I
don't want to use one.  I don't want to have one.

				--Doug

    I was thrilled to see the brochure talking about the debit Visa card!
    
    I write checks for many, many things, including mail order.  Now, I
    would be able to call in my order using a Visa number.  The vendor
    processes the transaction immediately and I get my merchandise much
    faster, while still paying cash.  I'm not worried about the lack of
    float -- my check would normally clear before I received my merchandise
    anyway, but now I could get the merchandise much faster.
    
    Yes, there are no credit card-like protections.  But, checks have no
    such protection either.  They have other protections, and I'd like to
    see what the DCU will do to protect debit transactions.  As I'm sure
    many of you know, it is possible to do checks electronically now -- no
    signature required.  However, not many vendors have signed on to this
    service yet.  So, your money is still at risk just by having a checking
    account.
    
    The dropping of the checking fees and this feature may get me to reopen
    my DCU checking account.
    
    -- Russ

I got my Fleet Select card for an entirely different reason.  Instead of
racking up credit card debt, cancel all your credit cards and get one of
these debit cards like Fleet Select, BayBanks or now DCU.  Now you *know*
that what you're charging is going to come straight out of your checking
account.  Keeps those unnecessary purchases to a minumum.

- Jim

    I use credit cards for certain types of purchases, e.g. car repairs,
    where one cannot be sure of the quality of the purchase until after
    paying.  This allows me to easily cancel payment if there's a problem.
    I certainly won't use a debit cards for those purchases.
    
    I expect the debit card to carry the same kind of limitations on
    financial liability as a credit card -- that is, I don't pay for
    any transaction unless I lose my card, and I only pay up to a
    limited amount even then.
    
    Given that, I'll be very happy to have the debit card.  I've sometimes
    had my credit card refused for various silly reasons -- the most common
    being that somebody has "reserved" some of my credit and then not
    released it.  (Did you know about that practice?)  The debit card
    will always work, provided that I have money in my checking account.
    But I don't buy on credit unless I already have the money to pay for
    it, so that shouldn't be a problem.
    
    	Enjoy,
    	Larry

When I relocated to France, the bank I use would give me only a debit 
card to start - and I've kept it.  For me, one of the main advantages is 
getting local currency out of the wall, practically wherever I am, with 
no cash advance charge.

When I withdraw cash, the transaction is not a cash advance from my 
bank, since I am not asking them to lend me money against my credit 
card.  The result is a much better deal than converting currency or 
travelers cheques.  To do this kind of thing with a credit card, you 
have to create a credit balance in advance, by sending the bank money.

[If I have any details wrong, I'm sure that John Covert will correct me.  ;-)]

- Scott

    Re protections and .9:
    
    
    
    >I write checks for many, many things, including mail order.  Now, I
    >would be able to call in my order using a Visa number.
                                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    
    This really worries me as this is how scam artists get access to your
    credit card.  Now, the same way, they can get access to your bank
    account where the approval process in NOT hte sam as with a credit card
    (as far as I know).
    

Scam artisits can do the same sort of thing with any of your account numbers,
including you checking account number or any other account number.

-Glenn-

	Well, I seem to use a completely different financial model than many of
you.  I pay cash for groceries, lunch in the caf & incidental expenses.  I
charge everything else.  I have two cards (Discover & Visa Gold) with a combined
credit line of around $15k. (If I'm bumping my credit limit on the Visa card,
even with "reserved" charges against it I have a problem.)

	Once a month I send off one check to each card paying off the month's
expenses.  I take advantage of the float that credit cards offer at no
cost to me.  For me, a debit card is a disadvantage 

	Last year I pumped around $6k through my Discover card. (All the local
places I buy gas take it via pay-at-the-pump and I used it heavily for
reimbursable business travel.)  Not only didn't I pay any interest or annual
fee -- they gave me $49.

	I'm not saying DCU shouldn't offer a debit card.  I'm saying I
shouldn't be forced to have one just to have an ATM card that I do use.

					--Doug

I'm confused at what people are griping about here. If you don't want to use the
new debit card feature of the ATM card, then don't; no one will force you to use
that feature of the card.

You've gotta use cash for some purchases, I'd think. Just think of the debit
card feature as having a wad of cash in your pocket. You'd use the debit card
feature just as you use cash *today*. Just because you now have an ATM card that
can also do debit transactions doesn't mean that you *have* to use that feature
and chance how you handle all of your finances.

-Glenn-

    > If you don't want to use the new debit card feature of the ATM card, 
    > then don't; no one will force you to use that feature of the card.
    
    Well, if someone installed an unlocked entry door to my house, I wouldn't 
    be satisfied if they told me "no one will force you to use that door".
    
    The issue is security -- does the new debit feature make it easier
    for someone to steal money from our accounts, and if someone does,
    what liability do we carry and what liability does the DCU carry.
    I expect that the information we get with the debit card will
    answer these questions.
    
    	Enjoy,
    	Larry

Yes, I imagine the info that comes with the cards will answer those questions in
details. I wouldn't think that the debit card will give anyone more illegal
access to your money than they have today.

Prediciton: everyone will have debit cards in the not-too-distant future, and
cash will continue to be used much less and less! Might's well get used to it
now!

-Glenn-

	For me it's kind of like why I don't have a long distance service on
my second phone line.  My second phone line is for the modem and I only need
to make local calls.  You cannot use my second phone to call long distance.

	My father lost a credit card in NYC a few years back. He reported
it and when his next bill came in there were dozens of charges over a two-day
period all within the high $40 range each (back then confirmation for purchases
under $50 was unusual) and you could trace the route they took by where the
stores were located.

	In the case of a debit card (that acts just like a Visa card according
to all the literature) that same sort of a spree would undoubtedly cause lots
of additional headache in terms of bouncing checks and screwing up your
checking account.  Thanks but no thanks.


					--Doug

    Any idea how much the merchant less the merchant makes on the sale with
    the debit card? [I know that MC/Visa charge a sliding scale based on the
    amount of business the merchant does with MC/Visa.]
    
    A percent or two off for cash ["I won't use my debit card, what's the
    price?] on a planned purchase can make a difference.

    I called DCU shortly after receiving the debit card mailer and
    requested that I be able to keep my current ATM card. I had already
    tussled with Shawmut on the same issue, only Shawmut required me to
    apply for a new standard ATM card (which I did). Why did I bother?
    Because even though representatives of both institutions claimed the
    debit cards weren't credit cards--and technically this is true--they
    can be used in the same manner. That is, that the bearer of the card
    can use it to make retail purchases *without* having to punch in a pin
    number or, in many cases, show another form of ID. Now in Shawmut's
    case, that bank has a $350 per day purchasing limit--DCU has no limit
    (so said the DCU rep I spoke with last week). That would mean * anyone*
    who got a hold of my card could just wipe out my account and I wouldn't
    realize it until it was too late! I suppose they could do the same
    with the Shawmut card with the $350/day limit if I didn't notice for a
    week or so as well. Of course, there may be some form of insurance on
    these accounts, but who needs the hassle?
    
    I don't think these debit cards were well thought out by the banks at
    all (I think they were thinking about the sweet deals that the credit
    card companies must be giving them to put there stamps on the cards). I
    also don't like having something forced on me, which is the approach
    that both Shawmut and DCU took (Did DCU ask you if you *wanted* a debit
    card? I wasn't asked). And while I'm on the subject, I also don't like
    the attitude of the phone reps at either institution. All the people I
    dealt with at Shawmut were abrupt and the DCU rep wasn't much better.
    
    Back to work...
    
    Nancy- 

    re .21
    
    Perhaps someone could clarify, but I believe that DCU gets something
    from VISA (part of the sliding scale) for use of the card.  I find my
    ATM Card just fine.   I get the impression that DCU is ELIMINATING ATM
    cards in favor of a VISA Debit card, with ATM capabilities.
    
    So, I guess this is more of Chuck's Profit motivation showing through
    perhaps ?
    
    

.21

This is scary - that the new 'debit/check' card can be used *without* a 
PIN number!    I had assumed that when using this new card, that a PIN would be
required when making a purchase.

It would be nice to have a 'choice' to use such a card, though I do prefer
to write checks myself (why give out my money before I have to?)
but I will be really upset if there is NO PIN and  if DCU does not have any
option for a stand-alone ATM card.

Guess I"ll have to call DCU too to make sure I understand all this!

Rachel

Like .21, I also have received the ATM card from Shawmut and soon
from DCU.  Thank  you but I want my old ATM card back.

There is a major headache regarding stolen cards. Per DCU,
you have a  max. liability of $50 if your card is stolen.
However, what the DCU will do is to credit your account back (minus
the $50 liability) after you have filed a stolen credit card
report, etc.

In the meanwhile, your current balance in the checking
account is now possibly zero and YOU potentially could have all your other
checks bounce.

Thanks but no thanks.  I want a ATM card and I want a separate
non-debit card. Fortunately, the DCU will allow you to use your
old ATM card upon request.

Gim

    I'd like to see DEFCU put your picture on this new debit card as well
    as on their regular VIAS card (which they don't now, I believe,
    although I don't have one of their regular VISA cards). Citibank has
    been doing this for a few years now and I think it's a great idea to
    prove the card holder is the card holder! (Yes, yes, yes, it doesn't
    help in non-person transactions, but it's a good step anyhow.)
    
    -Glenn-

	Call the DCU information center.  Tell them you don't want a debit
card.  They will take your badge number and extend your current ATM card so
it will continue to work.  When the debit card arrives, cut it up.

	(800) 328-8797 option 1 from the voice menu.


						--Doug

    
    I was confused by this controversy, because I have never used a debit
    card, and because I read the following in the "NETWORK" newsletter that
    announced the DCU Check Card:
    
    	"YOUR PIN REMAINS THE SAME
    
         Every member has been assigned a...PIN... The same PIN will
         be used for your DCU Check Card ATM transactions and POS
         tranasctions."
    
    The above exerpt led me to believe that if I used my new DCU Check
    Card at the grocery store cash register, I would be required to supply
    a PIN.
    
    So I too called the DCU information center. After a somewhat confusing
    conversation, I verified that such transactions will *NOT* require a
    PIN.� It seems to me that the "NETWORK" article is substantially
    misleading in this regard.
    
    On that basis, I asked not to receive a debit card, and was given the
    same information as in .26.
    
    ------------
    
    
      �When I first asked whether a point of sale transaction at a grocery
       store would require a PIN, I was told "Yes." When I attempted to
       verify: "So, when I go to the checkout and swipe the card to pay for
       my groceries, I will have to also enter my PIN?" -- I was told "No."
       Upon further questioning, I believe I verified that the checkout
       register transaction would not require a PIN, but if I tried to get
       cash from a debit machine in the grocery store but not at the
       register, that would require a PIN.
    

    
    
    
    It's like a credit card when dealing with people and a ATM card
    dealing with machines.
    
    

re: .28

>    It's like a credit card when dealing with people and a ATM card
>    dealing with machines.

Not if it can cause you to bounce checks if it is stolen.

Bob

    
From:	WLDBIL::KILGORE      "Help! Stuck inside looking glass!" 24-OCT-1994 16:24:01.46
To:	@M:DCU_BOD
CC:	KILGORE
Subj:	Confusion over new DCU Check Card


Dear Directors:

Attached is a note I placed in the DCU conference regarding the new DCU Check
Card, which was announced in the "NETWORK" newsletter (Fall 1994, Volume 5,
Number 3). This is a reply to a string in the conference that addresses the
pros and cons of the new card. The biggest con mentioned was that a lost
DCU Check Card gives the finder immediate access to a member's checking
account, without the security of a PIN for some transactions.

This note is not to express my dismay over that security gap; I did so by
refusing the DCU Check Card. The purpose of this note is to bring to your
attention the fact that the "NETWORK" article seems to be substantially
misleading with regard to PIN usage with the DCU Check Card. I request the
Board to instruct DCU management to do everything in its power to ensure that
holders of DCU Check Cards are aware that the card may be used in some
situations without a PIN, despite what is implied in the "NETWORK" article.

Thank you.

Bill Kilgore
DCU member

----------------


      
    [Note .27 attached]
    
    

    
    
    .29 only one store down here makes us use the pin number for
    buying items. Its Kroger. Then you have to sign the slip like a credit
    card. I personally find using the pin number an extra step. Annoying.
    
    But we also get a 5% discount on her debit card. 
    
    So to each thier own. Pick and choose the service you want.
    
    

    
From:	US2RMC::"[email protected]" 25-OCT-1994 00:36:28.71
To:	send::kilgore
CC:	
Subj:	Regarding Debit Cards

Bill,

I'd appreciate if you could post this reply to you in the DCU notesfile. I'd
like to
pass on what I know about the DCU check card and help to allay concerns that
you and others may have.

Re:

>Subject: Confusion over new DCU Check Card
>Date: 94-10-24 16:40:17 EDT
>From: [email protected] (Help! Stuck inside looking glass!
>24-Oct-1994 1631)
>To: [email protected], [email protected], [email protected]
>
>
>Dear Directors:
>
>Attached is a note I placed in the DCU conference regarding the new DCU
Check
>Card, which was announced in the "NETWORK" newsletter (Fall 1994, Volume 5,
>Number 3). This is a reply to a string in the conference that addresses the
>pros and cons of the new card. The biggest con mentioned was that a lost
>DCU Check Card gives the finder immediate access to a member's checking
>account, without the security of a PIN for some transactions.

I will address this point later. I'll explain how there need not be a
security concern
after I have explained in more detail how the check card works.

Re:

>This note is not to express my dismay over that security gap; I did so by
>refusing the DCU Check Card. The purpose of this note is to bring to your
>attention the fact that the "NETWORK" article seems to be substantially
>misleading with regard to PIN usage with the DCU Check Card. I request the
>Board to instruct DCU management to do everything in its power to ensure
that
>holders of DCU Check Cards are aware that the card may be used in some
>situations without a PIN, despite what is implied in the "NETWORK" article.

I believe the NETWORK article did a  good job of explaining the details
of the card. But I guess from your questions it didn't address all points.
Unfortunately
I think that would have been impossible without making the article much
longer
and involved and hence less readable. Unfortunately the the way the POS
terminals
are designed with the DEBIT and CREDIT buttons (totally out of DCU's control)
makes credit cards difficult to explain clearly.

Re:

>Thank you.
>
>Bill Kilgore
>DCU member
>
>----------------
>
>
>                                    -< DCU >-
>
>=============================================================================
===
>Note 897.27                       "Check Card"                          27
of 28
>nodnam::usernam "Help! Stuck inside looking glass!"  35 lines  24-OCT-1994
16:06
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
>    
>    I was confused by this controversy, because I have never used a debit
>    card, and because I read the following in the "NETWORK" newsletter that
>    announced the DCU Check Card:
>    
>    	"YOUR PIN REMAINS THE SAME
>    
>         Every member has been assigned a...PIN... The same PIN will
>         be used for your DCU Check Card ATM transactions and POS
>         tranasctions."
>    
>    The above exerpt led me to believe that if I used my new DCU Check
>    Card at the grocery store cash register, I would be required to supply
>    a PIN.

All that is said above is correct. Now let me go into details. You need to
think of
the "check card" as 2 cards in 1. It is an ATM/POS card and it is also a
"VISA" card.
Let's look at its two personalities:

1) The Check Card as an ATM card

a) This card is PIN protected just as your current ATM card is. You can use
it at
any ATM machine to draw out money from your checking account. If you use
it at a DCU ATM there is no charge. If you use it at any other ATM (eg a
Baybank
ATM) you pay a $1 charge. This is because DCU is assessed a charge when
"foreign" ATMs are used to access your DCU checking account for cash.

b) You can also use it at what are called POS (Point of Sale) locations eg
grocery
stores and Mobil stations. The important point to note here is that you are
using it in this mode if you hit the DEBIT key on those POS terminals. You
will
be required to enter your PIN into the terminal. If you use it in this mode
DCU
will assess you a 25 cent charge for the transaction. Again this is because
the
POS network assesses a charge on DCU for the transaction.

So you see in both of these submodes your card is PIN protected just like
your
existing ATM card.

Now for the second mode:

2) Acting as a "VISA" card.

Here as far as the merchant is concerned it is EXACTLY like a credit card.
The
merchant drives his actions off of the VISA logo. When used in this mode the
card is SIGNATURE protected. The merchant will provide you with a slip to
sign.
You can use it ANYWHERE you could use a VISA credit card. The difference
is it is NOT a credit card. The money comes straight out of your checking
account
more or less immediately. If the money isn't in the checking account the
transaction
will be rejected on the spot.

In one of those machines at grocery stores or Mobil stations you have to hit
the
CREDIT button to use it in this mode. I'm pretty certain you won't be asked
to
enter your PIN, but I'm not 100% certain on that.

Here is why you should always hit CREDIT instead of DEBIT when you have the
choice. There is NO charge if you hit CREDIT. The reason for this is that
when
you hit CREDIT the transaction goes through the VISA network, as against the
POS network, and VISA does not assess DCU a charge (just as there is no
per transaction charge when you use a credit card).
    
Re:

>    So I too called the DCU information center. After a somewhat confusing
>    conversation, I verified that such transactions will *NOT* require a
>    PIN.9 It seems to me that the "NETWORK" article is substantially
>    misleading in this regard.

As explained above a PIN number is NOT required when the transaction is
processed through the VISA network. Just as you don't type in a PIN when you
use a REAL credit card.
    
Regarding the security concerns. You need not fear that your checking account
is vulnerable if your card is stolen. At the DCU Planning conference I
specifically
asked Mary Madden about this. You are only liable for up to $50 worth of
loss,
just as is the case with a lost or stolen ATM card or credit card. And it is
my
understanding (although I did not ask this directly so I may be wrong) that
institutions
don't normally even assess the $50 charge when your card is lost or stolen. I
know that when I lost my Baybank Credit Card many years ago it was used to
charge several hundred $s worth of stuff all over MA and I wasn't charged a
penny. All I had to do was a sign an affadavid swearing that it was lost and
I had
nothing to do with the transactions.

Also as pointed out above the debit card can't be used to get hard cash
without the
use of a PIN number.

Re:

>    On that basis, I asked not to receive a debit card, and was given the
>    same information as in .26.


Given my explanation would you now make the same decision?

Re:    
    
>------------
>    
>    
>      9When I first asked whether a point of sale transaction at a grocery
>       store would require a PIN, I was told "Yes." When I attempted to
>       verify: "So, when I go to the checkout and swipe the card to pay for
>       my groceries, I will have to also enter my PIN?" -- I was told "No."
>       Upon further questioning, I believe I verified that the checkout
>       register transaction would not require a PIN, but if I tried to get
>       cash from a debit machine in the grocery store but not at the
>       register, that would require a PIN.
    
Yes this is the confusing point. At the register you can use it in "DEBIT" or
"CREDIT"
mode. If you use it in DEBIT mode you enter your PIN and pay a 25 cent fee.
If you use it in CREDIT mode you pay no fee and enter no PIN. You'll also end
up
having to sign a slip (just like with a credit card I think).

At the ATM machine you can't use it in "CREDIT" mode. Here you DO enter a
PIN and in addition you'll be charged a $1 fee by DCU to obtain cash.

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From: Help! Stuck inside looking glass!  24-Oct-1994 1631
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% Date: Tue, 25 Oct 1994 00:31:04 -0400
% From: [email protected]
% Sender: [email protected]
% Message-Id: <[email protected]>
% To: send::kilgore
% Subject: Regarding Debit Cards
    

    I like the card even LESS after reading Dave's explaination.
    
    I hope this card is not the result of the 3Gs or what we can expect
    from the.  I expect that DCU managment had a hand in this but I hope
    and expected that the new baord would be independant thinkers.
    Please tell me that this was in the works and they had no hand in 
    starting it!
    ed
    

     The card seems pretty standard to me.  It has no more vulnerability
than the checking account you might already have.  I have been called 
paranoid about the ease of access that EFT's allow, but this card doesn't
add much to my concerns.

                                    Greg

re: .33

>    I hope this card is not the result of the 3Gs or what we can expect
>    from the.  I expect that DCU managment had a hand in this but I hope
>    and expected that the new baord would be independant thinkers.

Hey, wait a minute!  Just 'cause *you* don't like it doesn't mean it's
evil.  I personally will find the new card very useful.  My wallet usually
has my VISA card in it along with my ATM card, so I don't really see any
significantly increased risk.

If you don't like the new card don't get one, but don't insist that we all
be painted with the same brush.

-Hal

I'd say it was about time.  The only thing left on my list to do is get one
for my spouse as well.

    re .33:  Could you please explain why you like it *less* after reading
    Dave's explanation?  For me, Dave cleared up all of the uncertain
    issues.  I am very glad to hear that we have the same financial
    protection for a lost debit card as for a lost credit card.
    Thanks, Dave, for your clear and extensive message!
    
    Of course, there remains the issue that you lose your credit card,
    you just lose the ability to charge things until it is resolved, 
    but if you lose your debit card, you lose the ability to write checks 
    until it is resolved.  
    
    This can be very serious.  My brother once had a bank that mailed
    his ATM card to the wrong address.  Even though it was supposedly
    PIN protected, someone got hold of it and cleaned out his account.
    It took a long time to figure this out -- for over a week, all my
    brother knew was that all his checks were bouncing, depositing money
    into the account didn't help, and the bank was unsympathetic.  He
    finally had to start demanding in a loud voice in their lobby, 
    "WHAT HAVE YOU DONE WITH MY MONEY?!!" before they started trying to
    do anything about it -- and even then, it took a week to get the
    card deactivated and money put back into his account.
    
    Anyway, the moral of this story is that debit cards can indeed 
    cause problems with checks bouncing if someone finds a way to
    access your account through them -- but that the same problem
    can occur with an ATM card.  I hope and trust that the DCU will
    train its employees to be aware of this potential so that they
    can quickly and effectively deal with this problem if a member
    calls in with a confusing story about checks bouncing.
    
    	Enjoy,
    	Larry
    
    PS -- Shawmut is also giving me a debit card.  The DCU's mailings
    have made it *far* clearer that the card is NOT really a credit card.
    My first Shawmut mailing said "use it like a credit card" and that was
    as close as they came to saying that it wasn't actually a credit card.
    So DCU beats out Shawmut for honest communication on this issue.  LS

There is still one major difference between an ATM card and the debit card
mode of the DCU card described here.  With a stolen debit card and the pin,
your checking account can be wiped out.  With an ATM card, you can only
withdraw a certain amount of money over a specified number of days.  This
tends to limit your loss to whatever that limit may be.

Bob

    >The important point to note here is that you are using it in this mode
    >if you hit the DEBIT key on those POS terminals. You will be required
    >to enter your PIN into the terminal. If you use it in this mode DCU
    >will assess you a 25 cent charge for the transaction. Again this is
    >because the POS network assesses a charge on DCU for the transaction.
    
    I feel that the DEFCU should absorb this 25� fee as a cost of doing
    business. Just because the POS network charges that fee doesn't mean it
    has to be passed on to the card user. Just because the service provider
    (in this case the POS network) determines their "monthly bill" by
    multiplying 25� by the number of transactions performed that month
    doesn't mean that fee has to be passed directly to the card user. If
    the electric company charged by the "transaction" (say, activating an
    ATM terminal) it doesn't mean that DEFCU has to pass that charge
    directly to the person using the ATM; DEFCU absorbs the cost of the
    electricity as a cost of doing business. I think network fees should be
    handled the same way. Just because every other bank and credit union
    appears to pass these fees on doesn't mean that DEFCU does!
    
    -Glenn-
    

    >I like the card even LESS after reading Dave's explaination.
    
    Why? What don't you like about the card?
    
    -Glenn-
    

	My objection to it is that since it can be used *just like a Visa
card*, then it can be used to directly withdraw money from my account without
a signature. (Ever been in a casino?  Instant cash advances against any credit
card you can name.  I just charged $100 bucks worth of stuff with a phone call,
no signature) In the credit card case, the threat is against your credit line,
not against your checking account.  In effect, all the risk is borne by the
credit card company.

	My weekly pay goes into my checking account and I push it around to
various places as needed from there.  Lift my wallet with a debit card in it
on a Thurs morning and you could have a plane ticket (via phone) in hand in
no time virtually wiping out my checking account.  No thank you.

						--Doug

    certainly I believe that anyone who wants one should be able to get
    one.  But,  I don't think the literature was very clear [has it ever
    been?].  The option should have been to request one, not get one issued
    automatically.  I do not want one of these things, thank you.
    call it my basic distrust of DCU [or any other institute], but I need a
    written account of xfers. If one has ever dealt with DCU on screwed up
    checking account charges, you'd understand.
    

 I cancelled because:

 - didn't ask for it  
 - wouldn't use a debit card
 - Charge card "float" is to my advantage. Some charges take months to appear.
 - current card accrues dollars towards car purchase
 - sense of some limited additional security
 - prefer 2-stop payment method that a traditional credit card provides
 - one less mail distribution list/demographic data collection point (I hope)
 
  Hopefully, the DCU will not issue it at all and save a few pennies 
 while not exposing my checking account to theft or providing my financial 
 data without asking to VISA et al.

  It's nice folks are creative and trying to help but like the beggars in 
 Monty Python's "Life of Brian", I didn't ask.

And don't forgot these bounced check fees if you checking account
balance is wiped because of a stolen debit card.

You get hit from 2 ends:
1. DCU charges you for bouncing the check.
2. The payee (Gas Co, Phone Co, etc.) hits you with a return check
   charge. 

Thanks but no thanks.

Gim

    I, too, will pass.
    
    I think "signature protection" is a joke.
    
    ed

>    I think "signature protection" is a joke.

Do you think paper checks are a joke too? If so, why?

-Glenn-

I've never had any sort of plastic (VISA or ATM) from DEFCU and I don't
intend to now, either. Keeping my plastic in other financial institutions
has proven useful. I'll keep my checking there, but leave this "service"
alone.

-Jack

    DCU DEBIT CARDS?  ANOTHER THING TO WORRY ABOUT!
    
    I'm not clear on this--do we HAVE to have a Debit card, can't we still
    have an ATM card.  My supermarket takes my DCU ATM, no problem.  I don't
    need it for any other kind of purchase.  I don't want a Debit card, I
    want my ATM card.
    
    And while I'm feeling peeved -- A WARNING to Peoples Bank/Shawmut 
    customers:
    
    If you previously belonged to Peoples bank and now find yourself part
    of Shawmut - be aware that your automatic payments may not be
    happening, contrary to their info package at takeover time.  My 
    sister found out when her mortgage payment didn't happen and
    a friend at the mort. company called her to let her know.  On inq. she
    found out that no automatic payments were being made.
	
    It's getting so that a mattress is about as secure a savings vehicle as
    a DCU or a bank, and a lot less trouble.

re: .46

If you think about it, your signature is not what authorizes funds to be
withdrawn from your checking account, even on checks.  Banks don't look at the
date on the check, nor do they pull out your signature card each time they honor
a check written on your account.  My mother once had a check cashed by the IRS
for income taxes that she had not even signed!  Once, in a pinch, my stepson
signed when he used his father's Visa card.

The only way a signature might matter on a check is if you have checks stolen,
then you can use a bad signature to prove you did not write those checks.

Elaine

RE: .49

Yea, that's all fine and dandy and everyone is probably already aware of that.

But does any of that stop you from using paper checks? Of course not!

-Glenn-

re: .48

	see .26.

	Just call and tell them you don't want a debit card.  They'll
extend your current ATM card.  If the debit card arrives in the mail, just
cut it up.

				--Doug

From:	US2RMC::"[email protected]" "kinzelman_paul" 25-OCT-1994 17:16:49.09
To:	wldbil::kilgore, (Bill, Kilgore)
CC:	
Subj:	Please post this in DCU ASAP

I just spoke to Mary Madden about the concerns expressed about the DCU
Check Card. Let me try to clarify some issues about the new card to
address the concerns in the notes file.

First off, members that do not want the Check Card service may call
the credit union to discontinue the service. However, the card was
introduced to add convenience to our checking account. Not only does
the Check Card serve as your ATM/POS card, but it is also accepted by
those merchants who accept VISA cards.

At our 1993 Strategic Planning Conference, the Board along with
Management agreed to offer this Check Card as a value-added service to
our checking account. DCU staff has been working on its implementation
since February, 1994. The check card not a new concept. It's been
around for about 10 years, primarily in California and the
Southwest. During the past month, DCU employees have been using the
Check Card. Employee feedback has been very positive.

If you go to a POS (point of sale) merchant, the charge is immediately
withdrawn from your checking account. However, it's used just like
your ATM card - you are required to use your PIN (Personal
Identification Number). In other words, it has the same risk as an ATM
card. The convenience is that you can use it in places that don't take
charge cards and some of those places won't take checks either.

If you go to a "charge card" merchant, the card is used exactly like a
charge card. In fact, the merchant can't tell the difference between
this card and a normal charge card. You must sign the charge slip, and
the merchant is supposed to call in to verify the transaction and
check the signature. In this way it's like a normal charge card,
HOWEVER, the amount is debited from your checking account. The charge
does not hit your account for a couple of days.

If your card is lost or stolen you need to report this immediately. Any
verification calls from merchants after this report will be
rejected. However, any verification calls made between the time you
lost the card and when you report it lost/stolen, and also any charges made
at the merchants that are not verified by the merchant (even after you
report it stolen) *WILL* go through and *WILL* cause removal of funds
from your checking account within a few days after the fraudulent
charge. DCU can't put a stop payment on the card charges.

*Theoretically*, there is no time limit to a fraudulent charge hitting
your checking account in this way. In practice however, all damage as
a result of stolen cards happens in the first couple of days after a
card is stolen, so you really don't have much to worry about after a
short time. VISA has a merchant policy that requires merchants to call
in all transactions to guard against this fraud. VISA's operating
regulations allow them to take action against merchants who don't call
in charges (in addition to returning fraudulent unvalidated charges
back to the merchant) up to and including termination of VISA charge
privileges.

In any event, you are protected from long term loss.  Any loss due to
fraud (including bounced check fees) would be refunded.  Note,
however, that you could have to deal with the effects of temporarily
having less money in the account than you think and the danger of
bouncing checks because of that.

This card is regulated under regulation "E" - the same regulation that
controls charge cards. This regulation limits the card holder loss to
$50 per instance of card loss. In addition, you would be reimbursed
for any "bounced check fees" charged both by DCU and the merchant for
any additional checks that might bounce and this is not subject to the
$50 cardholder loss limit.

It's also important to note that because unvalidated charges could hit
your checking account even after you report the card as stolen, you
could lose up to $50 even though you've properly reported the card
stolen. This is no different than any other electronic funds transfer
or charge card.

Any additional questions, comments, or concerns should be directed to
the credit union.

This note may be forwarded in its entirety to any DCU member.


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% From: [email protected] (kinzelman_paul)
% Message-Id: <[email protected]>
% To: wldbil::kilgore, (Bill, Kilgore)
% Subject: Please post this in DCU ASAP
    

From:	US2RMC::"[email protected]" 26-OCT-1994 00:50:59.77
To:	wldbil::kilgore, npss::badger
CC:	
Subj:	More on Check Cards

Bill,

Please could you post this message in its entirety in the DCU
notesfile. It is a response to a mail message Ed Badger sent
me that enclosed his note  897.33. I would like to address the
issues Ed raised.

Thanks,

Dave

Re:

>Subject: bad start! bad card! NO WAY!
>Date: 94-10-25 14:38:26 EDT
>From: [email protected] (Member Terminal Server >REengineering team
>25-Oct-1994 0807)
>To: mail11@, @, %[email protected]
>CC: [email protected]
>
>                <<< SMAUG::USER$944:[NOTES$LIBRARY]DCU.NOTE;5 >
                                  -< DCU >-
>
>============================================================================
>Note 897.33                       "Check Card"                          33
of 33
>ICANDO::BADGER "Can DO!"                              9 lines  >25-OCT-1994
08:08
>                                -< a bad deal! >-
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
>    I like the card even LESS after reading Dave's explaination.
>    
>    I hope this card is not the result of the 3Gs or what we can expect
>    from the.  I expect that DCU managment had a hand in this but hope
>    and expected that the new baord would be independant thinkers.
>    Please tell me that this was in the works and they had no hand in 
>    starting it!
>    ed
    
The DCU Check Card process was initiated before we (the 3Gs) were
elected to the DCU Board. But that said I enthusiastically support
it. DCU management briefed the new board on the check card and
on the plans for introducing it. The complete board offered nothing
but encouragement to the management team to move forward with
this.

I can assure you that I am an independent thinker and would not
blindly endorse something I disagreed with.

I believe strongly that the check card is an excellent product and it is
but one of several initiatives you will see that are aimed at providing
the level of products and services that will encourage a greater
proportion of the membership to make DCU their primary financial
institution. I fully recognize that we have a long way to go, but get
there we will. One of my own personal goals as director is to get the
DCU to somehow measure the percentage of members that consider
DCU their primary financial institution and to work to raise that
percentage. I am fully aware that the ATM fee charged for foreign ATM
access prevents a large number of people from making DCU their
primary financial institution. But I'd like to assure you that we are
actively looking for novel ways to address that issue. Unfortunately
just dispensing with the charge entirely is not the answer because
DCU is charged real money every time someone uses a foreign
(ie non DCU) ATM.

I have made DCU management aware of some of the member concerns
expressed, regarding the check card and have suggested
that they look at those concerns as input to the process
of formulating future communications on the card. I may even be
able to get something I could send to the moderator for posting
that will clarify some of the questions/concerns.

In some of the literature I was given for our recent planning conference
there is an indication that people who get check cards will also
be getting the "DCU Electronic Services Disclosure and Agreement".
I have not seen a copy of this but the literature I do have implies that
it answers all the more detailed questions such as information on
"daily transaction limits", "lost/stolen cards", "resolving merchant
disputes" and "other important issues". I'd like to ask that you not ask
the DCU for this just yet because I have a feeling you'll be getting it
in the mail anyway (it may not even be printed yet for all I know).
There is also more detail on the check card sent
out with the actual check card. My understanding is that check cards
will be sent out in November (please don't take that as a committment).

I also understand that for those people who absolutely do not want
the check card feature and wish to just keep their ATM cards that
the Info Center will be able to tell you how to do that. It is my
expectation that the vast majority of people will want the new features.
But for those that don't there is a way to avoid it being forced down
your throat. I believe that is the right approach of a member
focused institution. Ie give people REAL CHOICES...

Regards,

Dave Garrod


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% Date: Wed, 26 Oct 1994 00:47:39 -0400
% From: [email protected]
% Sender: [email protected]
% Message-Id: <[email protected]>
% To: wldbil::kilgore, npss::badger
% Subject: More on Check Cards
    

From:	US2RMC::"[email protected]" 26-OCT-1994 03:11:09.66
To:	wldbil::kilgore
CC:	[email protected], [email protected]
Subj:	Regarding new Check Cards...

Hello Bill:

Would you post this in it's entirety in the DCU Notes Conference in the
appropriate
thread?  As always, thanks for being the "go-between"!

All the usual disclaimers apply.  It's me, not the entire board here, and
this may be shared with any DCU member as long as headers are preserved
and the text is unchanged.

I've heard that there's been a lot of discussion about the new DCU debit 
cards in the notes conference, with a lot of opinions expressed both
in favor and opposed.  I've seen only a couple of pieces of email on the
subject - it would be great if I could hear more opinions pro or con on
the subject. 

It's my understanding that Dave Garrod posted a lengthy response to many
of the questions and concerns, especially as relates to PIN numbers, 
security concerns, and the usage of different transaction networks to 
avoid fees.  As I've not seen Dave's posting yet I'll avoid being redundant
and answering questions again.  If there are more questions, please let
us and DCU know so that answers can be provided quickly.

I do want to address one specific comment that was emailed.  Since the
email was a copy of a notes posting, I thought it was appropo to respond
to it here.

> Subject: bad start! bad card! NO WAY!
> From: [email protected] (Member Terminal Server REengineering team
>
>    I like the card even LESS after reading Dave's explaination.
>    
>    I hope this card is not the result of the 3Gs or what we can expect
>    from the.  I expect that DCU managment had a hand in this but I hope
>    and expected that the new baord would be independant thinkers.
>    Please tell me that this was in the works and they had no hand in 
>    starting it!
>    ed

A financial service like the new Check Card is not something that happens
overnight, or even in 2 months.  There is a tremendous amount of work 
involved in creating something like this, ranging from the pure technical
issues to regulatory disclosure issues to public relations issues, 
advertising, education, and promotion.  This program has been in development
for several months and was in initial rollout when Phil, Dave, and myself
were elected to the board.  

In general, I regard the board as responsible for strategy, goal-setting,
and direction-giving.  In these tasks there is a lot of interaction with
management at many levels.  Management consults with us as we discuss these
issues (at least to some extent), and often makes recommendations based on 
their expertise and knowledge.  Management also owns the task of turning
policy ideas and direction-setting into implementation.  The Board is aware
of much of what management does toward realizing stated goals because
management provides updates, briefings, and feedback about current work in
progress.  The Board, of course, is free to intervene if it believes 
that a particular plan of record is flawed or not needed, and the Board has
done so when necessary (for example, in rescinding the fees on checking
accounts).  I would expect this type of intervention to be the exception
rather than the rule. 

A specific goal and direction that DCU is pursuing, based on collaborative
thinking by management and the board, is using technology where appropriate
to provide cost effective delivery systems, enhanced services, and lowered
cost structure.  This is something I campaigned on and support.  DCU has been
and continues making inroads in these areas.  There are a number of projects
underway within DCU, many sponsored by quality circles (DCU is a TQM shop),
which are looking into leveraging technology in ways that are visible to
members and in ways that are not.  The Check Card is an obvious example of
this, as are the recent improvements in the Easy Touch system.  DCU is also
employing new technology in a lot of "back office"  operations. I've
seen at least 3 excellent examples of this in talking to management since I
came on the board.

I regard the Check Cards as a Good Thing for a number of reasons:

      1.  It provides a convenient service that many of DCU's competitors
          offer.  Nearly all financial institutions offer ATM cards right
          now. Given the acceptance of this technology, I think it's just
          a matter of months before nearly all financial institutions offer
          some form of debit card.  DCU needs to be competitive in this
          area in order to encourage members to keep their business with us.

      2.  It's a service which DCU can provide without laying a blanket
          of new fees on the members.

      3.  It's a service which has been on many members wish list for
          some time.

      4.  It's cost-effective for DCU to provide this type of service.  
          In terms of operating costs, it's a fairly low-cost item for
          DCU to provide.  Transactions expense is something that DCU 
          tracks and looks to reduce when reasonable, and I believe this
          is another step in the right direction.

      5.  It's an alternative to existing services.  If you don't want to
          carry one or use it, there is no one forcing you into accepting it.

So, to my way of thinking, the Check Card wins on a number of different 
levels.  When I was briefed about the program I enthusiastically endorsed 
it, as did the rest of board.

Implementing a new program, especially one that involves a new or different
technology, is bound to encounter some rollout problems and create some
confusion and concern.  Based on the presentations I've seen and the
conversations I've had with management, I'm satisfied that the program is
safe and does not present a security risk.  On the other hand, I've 
expressed my concerns to management regarding how the different POS 
networks are to be used and how this information will be presented, and I
think management has responded, and will continue to respond, to these
concerns.

In closing, I'd ask for folks to do a couple things:

     1.  Continue to let your Board know what's up.  Recall that Dave, Phil, 
         and myself do not work for Digital and don't have access to this 
         conference.  I've only gotten two pieces of email in regard
         to this issue, but I'm certain there's been more discussion than 
         that in the conference.  Besides, I hate an empty mailbox!

         External email addresses are posted in the conference, and Bill 
         Kilgore can provide a pointer to them if needed.

     2.  Please be patient as the new program rolls out.  Let DCU know if
         you've experienced difficulties or have questions.  If you don't 
         get resolution, let the board know.  Let Dave, Phil, and myself
         know.


Thanks!
/Chris

[email protected]




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% Sender: [email protected]
% Message-Id: <[email protected]>
% To: wldbil::kilgore
% Cc: [email protected], [email protected]
% Subject: Regarding new Check Cards...
    

Am I correct in assuming that if I don't have a DCU checking account (which
I don't), that I won't be getting one of these new cards?  I do have a
DCU ATM card which I use for transactions in my other DCU accounts.

I don't like debit cards for several reasons - one is that the potential for
fraud is much higher; merchants don't question use of a debit card the way
they do a paper check.  Another is that debit cards eliminate float - merchants
love this, I am sure, but it's no benefit to me.

				Steve

    The "Network" announcement about the card says:
    
    	Most members who already have a DCU Checking Account, are 18
    	or older, and frequently use their Easy Cash24 Cards will
    	receive a new DCU Check Card in the mail. Most other members
    	with a DCU Checking Account will receive an invitation to
    	sign up.
    
    So, no, if you don't have a checking account, you won't get a card. Why
    would you?
    
    I think it's a great feature that merchants don't question use of a
    debit card the way they do a paper check (assuming this is indeed
    true). I hate all the hassles with writing a paper check in person to a
    merchant.
    
    -Glenn-

I think the DCU offering another service choice to the members is 
great.  

My concern is with the method of implementation.  Since I no 
longer have a checking account with DCU, I haven't received the 
notification that was sent out.  From reading these notes it
appears that everyone will be issued a new debit card.  Members 
who don't want the new service must do something to make it not 
happen.  The burden of taking action is placed on the member who 
is satisfied with the current service and does not want a change. 
I wonder what survey results or studies indicated that most
members wanted the service?  Personally, I'm tired of other
people deciding for me what I want.  This is one reason for me
not to return to the DCU yet. 

Maryellen

    >Since I no  longer have a checking account with DCU, I haven't received
    >the  notification that was sent out.  From reading these notes it
    >appears that everyone will be issued a new debit card.
    
    Maryellen, you should have received the announement even without a
    checking account. The accountment came out in the "Network" bulletin
    that I always thought was stuffed into everyone's monthly statement.
    
    Read my reply (two back, I think) - not everyone will receive the new
    card. Only those with a checking account and that actively use their
    current ATM card will get one.
    
    I have to agree that the DEFCU should have made the card available upon
    request. Although personnally I'm glad they finally have the service!
    
    -Glenn-

While I think it is great that the DCU is trying to make additional
services available, I strongly object to them mailing me the card and
forcing me to cancel it.

I suppose that next month the DCU will open a free checking account for
everyone who doesn't have one and mail them a box of checks.  (But you can
always cancel the account if you don't want it.)

And I can just see December's new offering.  Since everyone is sure to want
extra money for Christmas shopping DCU will take out a $2000 loan for every
member and mail them a check.  (But you can just pay off the loan if you
don't want it.)

DCU, please stop trying to tell me which services I want to use.  Your job
is to make the services available.  I'll decide for myself whether or not I
want to use them.

 - Ken

    I'm puzzled about this piece of the expaination in Paul K's
    note...

>If you go to a "charge card" merchant, the card is used exactly like a
>charge card. In fact, the merchant can't tell the difference between
>this card and a normal charge card. You must sign the charge slip, and
>the merchant is supposed to call in to verify the transaction and
>check the signature. In this way it's like a normal charge card,
>HOWEVER, the amount is debited from your checking account. The charge
>does not hit your account for a couple of days.

    If it works this way, then you also need to carry a 'real' charge
    card if you DO want 'credit'.

    And what exactly occurs a couple of days later?  If the amount is
    debited from my checking account, what 'charge' hits my
    account a couple of days later.

    I think I dont get it.
    bob

>>check the signature. In this way it's like a normal charge card,
>>HOWEVER, the amount is debited from your checking account. The charge
>>does not hit your account for a couple of days.


�    And what exactly occurs a couple of days later?  If the amount is
�    debited from my checking account, what 'charge' hits my
�    account a couple of days later.

	The "charge" is tha amount you put against the card.  What Paul was
trying to say was 1) the money will be debited from your checking account and
2) the actual debit may take a couple of days to actually occur.


					--Doug

Why would anybody want to use this card for purchases if there is a $.25
transaction fee for each use and paying by check costs nothing???

Bob

    There is only a 25 cent fee if it is used as a debit card.  If it
    is used as a fake VISA card, it is free.  Also, I suspect that there
    are more places that will accept a debit card than will accept checks.  
    
    I cannot recall the last time anyone compared my signature to the
    one on my credit card, so I don't believe in signature guarantee
    either.  The best it does, as far as I can see, is to make it easier
    to show (after the fact) that I didn't make a particular purchase.
    Besides, there are huge numbers of vendors who will charge your
    credit card over the phone with no signature at all.
    
    The problem here is much bigger than the DCU.  The credit card
    industry as a whole needs to change their security procedures.
    
    	Larry

    RE: .62
    
    Well, checks aren't actually free. They're not 25� each, but you still
    pay for them.
    
    -Glenn-

re: .64

That's true.  But, since I either pay cash for my purchases or put it on a
credit card, I'd forgotten about that.  What do checks cost these days?  I
buy mine in the largest quantities the mail order places will let me, (usually
600) so I only buy checks about every 3 or 4 years or so.

Bob

    One reason I got rid of my previous debit card was the holds merchants
    put on your account when using them.  This also happens with credit
    cards, but the hold is against your available credit, not on your
    checking account.

    Most of the time the hold will be for the amount you actually signed
    for. The hold freezes the money until the charge or debit actually
    clears. This guarantees that the money will still be there between the
    time of authorization and the time the charge or debit is actually
    posted.

    The problem occurs in places like restaurants where the authorization
    is obtained before you total in the tip on the slip. They usually get
    an authorization that includes an generous tip. Your account will be
    frozen for the authorization amount - the excess hold goes away when
    the charge actually clears the bank.

    Sometimes they make a mistake in getting authorizations and put a hold
    in for a very large amount of money. With a credit card - you detect
    this when you get messages you have exceeded your credit limit when
    trying to make a new charge.  With a debit card you detect this because
    all of a sudden all your checks bounce - even though you have enough in
    your account to cover them all, the hold freeze will not let you use
    any of it.

    I had this happen to me a few years ago. There was no fraud involved so
    I was responsible for the bounced check fees caused by the erroneous
    too-high hold freeze.

    	Harlo

I went through this with Shawmut.

My objection was that if my wallet is stolen, I am now liable for another
$50.

They said, "No, it's the same $50."

I pointed out, no, I'm liable for $50 per card.

They said, "You have the same number of cards."

I pointed out, no, I now have one more card that can be used without a pin.

They agreed.  I got my old ATM card back.  I can use my ATM card as an ATM
debit card with PIN and my VISA card as a VISA card with a month's float.

/john

Re: .63, Larry

>						Also, I suspect that there
>    are more places that will accept a debit card than will accept checks.  

Actually, I can't recall the last time I shopped anywhere that wouldn't
accept a check, other than gas stations. And this includes a recent driving
trip to Louisiana and back.

-Jack

Just for the record, I just asked to not receive the check card.

If someone steals my credit card, or erroneously puts a hold on the credit, the
worst that will happen is that I lose $50 and credit card purchases will be
denied. If this happens to my check card, many checks can bounce, which will
cause many other problems, from fees for bounced checks (both at DCU and the
places that I wrote the checks for) to being prevented from using checks at
thise places to credit problems (for bouncing checks).

They were nice about it. I guess they've been getting a lot of calls.

    I just called the credit union and asked if I could keep the ATM card
    and also receive the Check card.  The said I could only have one or the
    other.  Can anyone explain why?
    
    Thanks,
    Garry
    

I guess I'd have to ask why do you want a regular ATM card when you have a debit
card that does the same thing? (If you don't want the features of the debit card
then just call the DEFCU and tell them you don't want one and you'll end up with
just your regular ATM card.)

-glenn-

    I would like my wife to have the debit or check card for grocery
    shopping etc., while I could have the ATM card for my use. 
    What does it matter why I want both.  I thought this was our credit
    union.  I just don't see why they can't issue both if requested.
    What's the issue with having both.
    
    Garry
    

I've never been able to get more than one card like this from DEFCU or any other
bank. It seems to be standard practive that you have just one of these cards.
The most common reason I hear is for security purposes. I even thought of trying
to evade this restrcition once by telling a bank I lost my ATM card. No problem.
They sent me another one. But it turns out they give each card a serial number.
So even though I had two cards, only the newer one worked because it had the
newer serial number.

But that's for one person. Has the DEFCU told you that you can't have an ATM
card and your wife can't have a debit card?

This has nothing to do with it being our credit union that I can see.

-glenn-

re: .73

>I've never been able to get more than one card like this from DEFCU or any other
>bank. It seems to be standard practive that you have just one of these cards.

Is this for a joint account?  My wife and I both have ATM cards for our joint
accounts at our bank.

Bob

    I have two ATM cards for my DCU checking account, always have.
    This is a joint account.
    
    Janice

    
    If it is a joint account you can get ATM cards, and you can use it for
    groceries purchases..etc.
    
    One thing though I don't remember if it was mentioned in this string of
    replies..
    
    I was asking about the fees for using the DEBIT card at grocery stores
    vs. the ATM..and what I was told (and I really am not sure I can
    believe it or not) was that if I am using a DEBIT card at the store, 
    and the selection was available for a DEBIT card selection over ATM
    to use the DEBIT card selection because there was no charge (I think
    the ATM charge is $.25 - can't remember cos I use my ATM from the IC
    that doesn't charge me for ATM), if the selections were ATM or Credit 
    card and no available choice for DEBIT, then use CREDIT card selection,
    and there would be no fee attached to it..
    
    Also you would need to use the code at the grocery store. However my 
    question now is, if you select a Credit card selection, would you still
    be prompted for a code...?? 
    
    I have mixed feelings about the debit card, but I don't feel like
    calling DCU again for more info for couple reasons:
    
    The person who talked to me today didn't seem very eager to help. I got
    the tone which was sort of "I can't believe someone is calling to ask 
    stupid questions".
    
    The other reason is: I didn't think the person who answered was giving
    me correct information...whatodo..whatodo..
    
    Nisreen
    

    I called the number mentioned in .26 to cancel the new card and
    received a prompt and courteous response.  The person on the line
    was also interested in understanding why I didn't want the new card.
    
    FWIW, I also suggested that what I really wanted was a card with
    my picture on it, so that no one else but me could use it.
    

RE:  Note 897.76 by BEIRUT::SUNNAA

If you press the "credit card" button on the machine, there is no PIN
required, and no service charge.  If you press the "debit card" button on
the machine, your PIN is required, and there is a small service charge.
That's why I always use my card in "credit" mode in these situations.

- Jim

    Did I get forgotten?

    A card came for my daughter's account last week.  She used to use the
    card a lot so I understand why, even though the account is now inactive
    and almost empty.

    Yesterday a notice came about my wife's account, which said she should
    request a card if she wants it.  This also makes sense since she had no
    card for that account.

    But I have heard *nothing* on my joint account which is where all the
    action is!  When do I start worrying that I have been forgotten, or
    worse that the card has been heisted from the mail?

	Paul

    RE: .79
    
    We received our cards for our joint account in Monday's mail.
    
    FWIW, we live in Marlborough.
    
    Used mine at the PKO drive up ATM on the way in this morning.
    
    kjg
    

As a remote user, I do not like paying $1.00 every time I need money from an
ATM machine.  What I'm wondering is, if I use an ATM machine and select the
credit option, will the transaction be free?  I know that ATM's require PIN
even for credit cards.

All in all, even though we were not given a choice, the new check card is good
for me.  I do not like carrying a lot of cash but tire of having to write a
check for small amounts.  The telling point will be if I can remember to write
transaction amounts in my checkbook.

Gwen

    
   >> As a remote user, I do not like paying $1.00 every time I need money
   >> from an
   >> ATM machine.  What I'm wondering is, if I use an ATM machine and select
   >> the
   >> credit option, will the transaction be free?  I know that ATM's require
   >> PIN
   >> even for credit cards.
    
    
    I think this has been answered as NO elsewhere (perhaps even in the
    literature from the DCU).
    
    Although, I do see some grocery stores allow you to get as much as $50 
    back on the debit/check cards, thus if you buy something that you
    already may need at a grocery store that supports this type of
    transaction, then you could conceivably bypass that $1 fee (it may be
    more trouble than it worth though).
    
    
    John
    

    When I use my DCU check card in "credit card mode" and the merchant
    pays a transfer charge, who pockets that charge?  
    
    --Pat

    
    I believe merchants all pay a %age of their VISA sales as the "charge".
    Depending on the contract the merchant has with VISA (or whoever) this
    could be 2% or even 5%...  Of course, you know that that charge is
    passed on to you anyways.
    
    Think of it this way, VISA doesn't provide its service for free, if a
    merchant accepts VISA (and others) they know they will get a wider
    customer base...  Heck someone has to pay for those VISA commercials!
    
    John
    

    I know a merchant (bike shop dealer so you're not talking multimillion
    dollar business) who does all his charge cards through a co-op and
    told me he pays 1.38% plus 25� for each phone verification.
    
    ed

    be careful, don't cut up your old card before you try your new.
    the ATM ate my new card this morning saying that it was no longer any
    good.
    
    Before receiving the new card, I asked that it not be a debit card.
    They said it wouldn't.  They are right.  it's nothing now.
    another great job by dcu.  we may have new members on the board,
    but we have the same old HQ.
    
    

have you ever considered that they may just be picking on you?  Every contact
I've had with DCU has been great.  My auto loan went without a hitch,
I think the new check card is great, and I really like the fact that they
now use Business Reply envelopes for mailing deposits - saves me the price
of a stamp.

    Re .86
    
    I also called and asked not to have a debit card.
    They told me that it might be too late to stop the mailing,
    but that they would inactivate the card and leave my current
    ATM card active.  Sounds like this is what they did for you 
    also.  Either they didn't explain it well to you, or you 
    weren't listening.  I cut up the new card when it arrived
    (after calling once again to verify I had understood).
    
    Janice

    It's not a big deal.  I just posted to warn others incase they are
    about to do what I did.
    
    and I don't think they are aginst me.  I believe that they may not PLAN
    as carefully as they might.  I belive they shoot for a particular
    bandwidth of users and when someone doesn't fit the typical user, then
    they run into problems.
    
    take the car loan, for example, I was about to go on vacation, my son
    finds a car he wants to buy, DCU can't come up with the loan in time
    [really crazy reason], but another bank can.
    If I point this out, some will consider it complaining/whinning/ect.
    Perhaps so.  but DCU does loose, and if it ever wants to do more
    business, it should consider why it doesn't get a loan. complaints
    should be listened to with the view toward possible improvement.
    
    or take the case of the new CDs I got for the kids. I just got them from
    1st NH bank.  Not because of a better rate, they were about the same,
    but becuase the kids could buy CDs from anyone for a min of $500, not
    the DCU required min of $1000.  At the risk of being pegged as a
    complainer, I did let the directors know about this and DCU's lost
    business.
    read it how you will.
    
    

    I called and asked to keep the old card.
    
    I got a new "check card".
    
    I later got a letter saying "You haven't used your new card yet! Your
    old one will die soon!"
    
    Huh? The person a DCU said mine would keep working, and I should toss
    the new one when it showed up.
    
    So, I tried the new "check card". It worked. It still works. So, I
    guess I get to have a check card whether I like it or not.. 
    
    ...tom

    My new check card works like magic. I used it New Years eve to get
    take out Chinese food, and while home eating the food I looked at 
    the receipt. My $31.50 food order only cost $3.15.  
 
    
    Mike

    
    I think when you use the card at a Chinese restaurant, the balance
    of the bill gets debited an hour later.
    

    
    Well, it probably has been seen many time before in this string, but
    I hated the Debit card idea from the start and it tried to hurt me...
    
    When it was time to shuffle some money around just before Xmas, I asked
    my wife how many $$$ charges to expect from checkes she wrote. She told
    me, and she indicated to expect $$$ more on Visa. Well, i _assumed_ she
    meant our regular Visa credit card... Nope, she had just seen the VISA
    sign check card and used it. So we rapidly had 5 whithdrawals too many
    and clocked up $75 in fines for $150 in purchase :-(. To their credit,
    the DCU was understanding upon my inquires and considering my history
    were willing to walk away from the penalties, but the letters that had 
    already been send out sure looked ugly.
    
    I don't need this shit. My regular VISA works just fine and gives me
    a month notice and perks to boot. Ok, I guess I am in the fortunate
    position to have been able to pay of my Visa bill in full every month.
    Not everyone manages that. For those I would suggest to have two
    cards, one outside that gives a perk (ff miles / car rebate / gas rebate )  
    and for which a full payment can not be made. The other the DCU regular 
    Visa to be *automatically* payed of in full every month from the
    savings account. That way you get to float your money a little while
    and get an advance notice of how much is going to be needed for purchases.
    
    Thanks for listening,
    
    Hein.
    

    Huh? That's like saying you wrote a check from the wrong checking
    account and you expect the financial institution to cover this for you.
    Why would you expect that?
    
    Sure sounds like user error to me.
    
    -glenn-

    
    Glenn, it was absolutely a user error. I understood how the check card
    was going to work, but failed to explain it to my wife as I replaced
    her old ATM card for the new 'VISA' card. I'm quite sure I suggested
    her to use it just to get cash and in place where plain Visa credit
    card were not accepted and to use the main visa credit card for normal
    purchases. Still, that's not what what happened and it felt like we
    were 'set up'. This never happened with the ATM card, it did happen
    on first usage of the check card. We never asked for that, would
    have voted against such card, but it was 'forced' upon it.
    User error? Yes. Set up? Maybe. Will it happen again to us? No.
    Understandable error? We believe so, and fortunatly the DCU person I
    talked to upon finding a zero balance� thought so too.  There's the 
    silver lining: The (new?) DCU listened to and acted upon questions. 
    Thank you!
    
    Regards,
    	Hein.
    
    �) Normally the insuffient checking balance would have been protected by
    the saving account, but with Xmas and all, that was for once near empty.
    Unfortunatly, a home equitty loan, no matter in how good a standing can 
    not be used to protect checking/savings. Had I known those payments
    were about to be made, I would have used Easytouch to fill up the 
    checking account from the loan. but I was in ignorance and thought
    we'd easily make it 'to Thursday'. You know the rest. 
    
    
    

    The problem is that the VISA symbol has always been a CREDIT CARD
    symbol, but now it is being used interchangably on both CREDIT CARDS
    and DEBIT CARDS.  The up side of icons is that they allow quick
    recognition of a standardized operation.  The down side of icons is 
    that users assume that the icon always means the same thing.
    
    The credit/debit card problem is much larger than the DCU, of course.
    FWIW, the DCU mailings made this distinction pretty clear, which is
    more than I can say for the mailings from my bank.  I use a bank as
    well as the DCU since there are no DCU ATMs that are convenient for
    my wife.  I could dump the bank if my wife had access to free ATMs
    in the Greater Worcester area.
    
    	Regards,
    	Larry Seiler

Perhaps it's me, but I personnally find it hard to believe a card is just a
regular old VISA card when it says on it in big letters "DCU Check Card"!

-glenn-

I agree with Larry. I have both a DCU and a Shawmut
card.  Unless you read the details carefully, you can
be led astray.

I was personally dismayed at the attempts by both
the DCU and Shawmut to "sneak" one by.  Yes... I know that
that the DCU and Shawmut made it clear in its literature. But I view
it much like that book of the month club where you get the book
sent to you unless you return a post card.

I do know that some folks like the check card - but I view with
disfavor any attempts which:
	- reduces the float on my charge cards,
	- imposes fees on my cards,
	- reduces my interest income in any manner.

Gim
						

    reply :-.1
    
    So what's your point other than you didn't want one and DCU sent it
    to you?  They haven't refused to remedy that situation.  
    
    In my experience the debit card charges have had the same 'float' as a 
    written  check, therefore having no impact on dividends paid, AND they 
    haven't  charged me any fees for getting it that I've heard of.
    
    Debit cards ain't no rocket science and they haven't just suddenly
    appeared on the scene.  If someone can't manage a debit card, I don't
    imagine they can manage a written checkbook.  There's little difference
    in terms of record keeping...
    
    --bert

re: -1, 

I never pay cash unless I have to. I currently use the
Ford card and the AA Visa.  With the Ford card, I get
5%  back on everything I charge.

With the AA Visa, I get 1 FF miles for every dollar.

I charge groceries, gas, restaurant, magazine subscription, everything
possible under the sun.  A colleague across the office from me even
charges his son's tuition at college on his United airlines card.

Now - why should I allow the DCU to debit my checking account? 

Gim

>Now - why should I allow the DCU to debit my checking account? 

So you cut it in half, and sent it back to them, just like you did with the
old debit card.  Given your usage, I can't imagine you using the old card
either, so what's the big deal?

I think it's great that DCU helped out the earlier person by waiving
the overdraft fees - that's what I call real customer service; especially
considering that it was clearly not DCU's fault.

--Scott

        RE: Last few

    	What I think I'm hearing and I agree with is, it's a service that
    these people didn't ask for and they shouldn't have to remedy.  These 
    people bought the service when it was set up one way and their service 
    shouldn't change unless they request it be changed (allowing a change 
    is being offered) or it's being discontinued.  I personally never cared 
    for the tactic of we're going to change something or send you something 
    unless you send this postcard back and or notify us.

    Joe

    
    
    
    	I don't view it as a change of service. It still works as a cash
    	card. 
    
    	I did get free added service.
    
    	Since I like to pay in cash and since ATM's charge money.
    	I save money by using the debit card and not getting the money
    	directly from the machine. Then don't have a bill waiting at the
    	end of the month.
    
    	It seems many people don't like too many options. Like my sister
    	hates Shaws supermarket because there are to many brands to choose
    	from. I don't get it.
    
    

I guess I'm in the "I don't get it" group too. 

I like the new card.  I can use it for ATM withdrawls, the same way as the
old card.  I can use it to "write checks" without having to go through the
hassel of writing a check (or the expense to buy them).  Or I can use my
other charge card(s), same as I always have.  From my point of view, the 
only thing that has changed is that I no longer have to write checks on
those occasions when I would have in the past.

I used the new card for the first time on Christmas Eve when I went on my
traditional, last minute, stocking stuffer trip.  I used it because I figured
the other plastic already had enough on it and "writing checks" would help
me self-limit my spending on trinkets.  I was happy to see that the debits
cleared within two days and even happier when one that was returned was
promptly credited to my account.

						Mark

I suspect that those who "don't get it" use their card differently than
I do mine.  I do not plan to use the check-card feature.  (I pay off my
credit cards in full so I prefer to get the float on my money).  So,
given that the check card feature is of no value to me, I now have an
additional $50 liability should my wallet get stolen.  My ATM card had
no such liability.

I should have called up and requested the continuation of my old ATM card,
but I didn't.

It's not a big deal, but I am somewhat annoyed that the card was changed out
from under me.  

On the other hand, if the majority of DCU ATM cardholders prefer the check
card feature and would have applied for one had there been an application
process, then DCU did the right thing by pleasing the majority of their
customers (and at lower cost than by processing however many applications
there would have been.)

>>>additional $50 liability should my wallet get stolen.  My ATM card had
>>>no such liability.


  Careful... It is NOT a credit card and therefore the law does NOT specifiy
the $50 liability...

    Re: .106
    
    According to note .52, the law states that the DCU check card has a $50
    liability. 

    Hey, I must be one of the lucky ones! I never got the debit card and my
    old cards still work fine. And I'm even a relationship member!! 

    
    re: .-1  I thought they sent them only to people who matched
    DCU's magic criteria for ATM usage....you probably don't use your atm
    card, at all?  
    
    --bert

    
    
      I believe in Mass Debit cards also carry a max $50 liability
    under state law, FWIW.
    
    
    						-al
    

    My husband has a checking account (share draft/NOW/whatever) at IC FCU
    in Leominster.  This is the account that is interest bearing regardless
    of the balance, and has no ATM charges whatsoever.  IC FCU is
    introducing a Visa Check Card.  But the approach they took is to send
    all their members an application for it.  If you want it, apply.  If
    you don't, find the recycling bin.
    
    He hates the idea of such a card, so he was able to toss it, without
    calling during business hours, and without getting something he didn't
    want, hassle-free.
    
    That's one reason I can't get him to join DCU.
    
    Elaine

    FWIW...  While catching up on my records filing, I came across the EFT
    disclosure/agreement that DCU sent last October.  It describes the
    check card in gory, detailed, legalese, and it mentions the $50
    liability. 

    Yes, I use my ATM card at least once a week. As a matter of fact, the
    other day I was using it here in HLO when one of the tellers walked by
    and said "Oh look, a good member - using the ATM". Anyway, I'm not
    complaining - I'd rather not have the debit card. I just thought it was
    interesting.

Actually, what I find interesting is the note in the latest board meeting
minutes that say something like: only a handful have called rejecting the new
card.

*IF* a handful is all it is, then it confirms (at least for me) that
either a) the membership hasn't changed, and is at least as apathetic
as before (we simply cannot ignore this possibility), or b) DCU got
it right the first time, and *MOST* of the members are pleased with this
new service, regardless of what this conference may or may not reflect
in terms of opinion (and it seems to be about 50/50 at this point -
but that's only a SWAG).

fwiw,
--Scott

re .96:

>    The problem is that the VISA symbol has always been a CREDIT CARD
>    symbol, but now it is being used interchangably on both CREDIT CARDS
>    and DEBIT CARDS.

I've had a Visa debit card for at least 10 years.

    
    Upon attempting to use a DCU ATM today for a withdrawal, I got the
    following receipt instead of my cash and my (red) ATM card:
    
                      ** YOUR CARD IS EXPIRED **
                    *** WE HAVE KEPT YOUR CARD ***
                   PLEASE--CONTACT THE CREDIT UNION
    
    
    According to the main office, my card had indeed expired, but I was not
    on the list for renewal.
    
    When the (green) debit cards were introduced, I called the main office
    to let them know I didn't want one; they told me to destroy the debit
    card when it came, and that my ATM card would be continued.
    
    There was no indication from the office on whether these two incidents
    were related. Anyone who rejected the debit card may want to check to
    see if they will get new ATM cards automatically. (BTW, is there an
    expiration date visible on the card? I can't check; see above.)
    
    I should get a new card in a couple of days. (Any wagers on its color?)
    

    err, couple days, don't count on it, it took over two weeks.
    keep on their case.
    

There is an expiration date on the plain DCU ATM card, don't know about the
'new, improved' debit card. Mine is good for three years.

Chris    

    
    
    
    	The DCU Check card has an expiration date on it, just like a
    credit card.
    
    JimH
    

    I too recieved a Debit card and accepted it as progress, although
    I didn't plan to use it in place of my checkbook. By filling out
    a paper check, I record the transaction and keep a running balance. 
    Maybe it's unwaranted, but I doubt I could keep my balance straight
    if I used a debit card. 
    
    One day I went to make a rather large purchase and pulled out the
    debit card by accident instead of my Visa credit card. My checking
    account did not have sufficient funds to cover the debit. DCU covered
    the charge, but I got hit with a $15 penalty, and no longer had
    sufficent funds in my checking account to cover other checks that 
    were in the mail. ARRRRRGGHH!  I freely admit that the mistake was mine, 
    but I believe that the Debit card looks too much like a credit card and 
    it's a really easy mistake to make, especially when you're in a hurry. 
    
    To DCU's credit, I called and they agreed to reimburse my account for 
    the $15. I had them send me a regular ATM card and destoryed the debit 
    card. Never Again!
    
    I am from the camp that believes that DCU should have asked us if
    we wanted the new debit card before sending it out. I would have
    passed on it. 
    
    Mark
    

    Conversely:

    I went to the grocery store the other day, and discovered when I
    reached the cashier that I had forgotten my checkbook.  I was saved
    because the store takes credit cards.

    I find that the unusual green color of the card is enough that I won't
    confuse it with my other cards.

	Paul

	colours:

	Yea, green differs it from my other cards (blue and gold) enough
	that I don't mix it up.. 

							mike

    
    On differentiating the card, it also helps to keep it in the little white 
    paper sleeve that the old ATM card was in.  It's hard to confuse it for 
    a regular visa card when your fumbling it out of your old ATM slip cover.....
    We won't cover the topic of "if you confused this card with something
    else your not thinking very hard about what you're charging on what card".
    
    I have to say the more I use it, the more I really like it.  The 'risk' 
    is worth it to me.  About three years ago I went to a totally paperless 
    home accounting method(Quicken, etc) with the exception of saving 6
    months worth of check duplicates, and other receipts. With the addition 
    of a debit card it's even easier to track things. I guess I was already 
    conditioned to saving receipts and not keeping a written record of my 
    transactions in a check register, before the debit card came along.  It's 
    a natural for me.
                                                            
    I bet I haven't written 10 checks in the last two months.  Hell, at
    this rate I may not order checks at all on the next go round, or at 
    least a 250 check order will last me a couple of years!
    
    Now if I could just figure out an easier way to get a couple of dollars
    when I need a paper or a coke........or they made newspaper and coke
    machines that would debit my card.   8^}
    
    A cashless society would suit me just fine, withdrawing/carrying/changing 
    cash is time consuming and a hassle.  Swipe my card, gimme a receipt
    and let me be on my way whether it's for a .30 pack of gum or a 
    $3000 home computer.
    
    --bert
                                                
    --bert

    I thought I had heard the last of this pesky check card, but last
    evening, when I went to the check out desk at the supermarket,
    I found that my ATM card didn't work.  It had expired!
    
    Back when the Check Cards were first issued, I called the number 
    on the Check Card blurb and cancelled the Check Card and asked for 
    my ATM to be continued.  I returned the card.  I was assured that
    before my ATM card expired I would be sent a new one, as normal.
    
    That didn't happen!
    
    PLEASE, DCU, before you go and mess around with my automatic banking
    again, or assume that I will do what you want and change over to
    what ever scheme you think up -- DON'T DO IT.   And please, if you
    say you are going to continue handling my ATM card management "as
    normal", then do it.
    
    Thank goodness I work in a site that has a DCU branch in it, if
    not I would not have access to my cash money.  In the grand scheam 
    of things, this isn't earth shattering, but it's going to screw up my 
    whole weekend and next week, and I don't like that.  If I wanted my life 
    made more difficult, I would have another kid.
             

RE: .-1, Same thing happened to my ATM card.  Expired, no replacement, and
I cut up the debit card.  I'm tired of this.

    I have a question on one of the uses of this card.  Haven't had it very
    long and have used it several times and have not had a problem.  It's
    very convenient and I like it.....so far.  
    
    It's unclear to me, though, when using it at the supermarket in place
    of my check, does it become an 'ATM transaction' that I have to deduct
    from my four free network transactions per month.  Or is there a
    condition to it, like if you use the cash back option?  
    
    So, if it ends up getting counted as an ATM use, there goes my option
    to use it for groceries, because I always pay by check there, and I'd
    be using up my freebies too quickly.
    
    Can anyone clear this up for me?
    
    Thanks, 
    Lorraine  

    RE: .126
    
    My experience with using the check card at local (GMA) supermarkets is
    that the cashier usually asks 'do you want this as an ATM transaction,
    or a credit card transaction'. I always specify credit card, and it
    works fine for me. 
    
    hth,
    
    Kevin

I pulled out the wrong VISA at Barnes and Noble since I was a few dollars
short on cash, and I couldn't take just one (book).  It worked fine and I
won't have to wait for the bill (as long as I remember to take it out of
the checking account.
Now I never have to worry about being short of "cash" at Barnes and Noble.
I can spend everything I have without even making it to the grocery store.

Bill

    re .127...  But, are you able to get extra cash while using it as
    a credit card transaction??  
    
    My wife uses her current, non-DCU ATM card that way.  Groceries plus
    cash.  Since she already has a Visa card, we opted to get a regular
    DCU ATM card for her.  As an ATM card, there is no issue with 
    Equifax balances, she can get cash with the groceries, and not have
    to worry about the 4 free uses...
    
    Since I can get cash here at work, I got the check card for me.
    
    (Now, the question is, did we interpret all of the fine print
    correctly??! :-)
    
    Cheers,
    jeff
    

RE: .126

Lorraine,

If you have not read replies .32 and .52, please do.  This reply explains the
nuances of the ATM, Point-of-sale, and Debit aspects of the card.

In short, if you are using it at a grocery store, gas station, or wherever that
will let you use the ATM card, you can choose ATM.  This is considered a
Point-of-Sale transaction.  There are no longer any charges for POS transactions
at DCU.  You would then have to punch in your PIN.

You could also choose CREDIT, if the store allows Visa charges.  In that case
you will have to sign a charge-slip for your order.

I think the confusion is because many of these places accept both ATM and Visa
cards, and this card has a dual personality as both an ATM and a Visa card.

As far as I know, the question of whether you can get cash-back or not is a
matter of store policy, and would not affect your transaction with DCU.

In the future, you can feel free to call the Info Center with questions such as
these.  That can be helpful since they can access specific details about your
account.

Feel free to contact me if you have any questions or concerns.

Elaine

    Hi,
    
    Thanks to all of you for clarifying things for me.  I wasn't clear on
    that POS matter, and I am now.  
    
    I appreciate you taking the time to respond to my question.  I must say
    again, that up to this point, I have had no problems with this card,
    and enjoy the convenience.  I'm not in the habit of using a charge card
    anyway, so I don't make a mistake with it, and keep the card and my
    checkbook in a small, clear plastic bag in my pocketbook.  As soon as I
    get that slip, into the bag it goes, so I won't forget to record it
    when I get home.  It would be too easy to misplace them otherwise!!
    
    Thanks again for the help.
    
    Lorraing

    The following is from Dave Garrod:
    
From:	US2RMC::"[email protected]" 28-AUG-1995 22:00:47.83
To:	mal009::MAGUIRE
CC:	rowlet::ainsley, wldbil::kilgore
Subj:	Regarding DCU Check Card

Lorraine,

Your note (897.126) in the DCU notesfile concerning use of the DCU checkcard
came to my attention. Below I'll answer your
question. Bob/Bill please could you also post this as a reply
to the relevant notes string if you see fit.

In summary I think your question boils down to:

What counts against my quota of 4 free transactions? In particular
does using my check card in a grocery store use up my free
transaction limit?

Your check card can be used in a number of different ways:

1, At a DCU ATM machine. -- Anything you do here is FREE and
does not count against your free quota.

2, Cash withdrawals at a Network ATM. A network ATM is an
ATM on a non DCU network like CIRRUS. Good examples of
these are Baybanks machines. Here you get 4 free cash
withdrawals per month. Additional withdrawals cost $1 a
transaction. I believe that there is also a fee for ALL balance
inquiries or any other transaction the ATM lets you perform.
Note also that some (but not Baybanks ATMs) charge you a
fee to use the ATM. This will be reflected on the receipt. This
is independent of the fee DCU charges when you go over your
quota of 4 free per month.

3, Point of Sale Transactions. This is when you BUY something
in a store and specify DEBIT as the option. You'll be asked to
enter your PIN number. You have an unlimited number of these
per month. All are free. They DO NOT count against your quota
of 4 free Foreign Network ATM transactions per month.

4, "Credit Card/VISA" Transactions. This is when you BUY
something in a store and use your Check Card as if it is a
Credit Card. You will end up having to sign the receipt. You will
not have to enter your PIN. You have an unlimited number of
these per month. All are free. They DO NOT count against
your quota of 4 free Foreign Network ATM transactions per
month.

Often when you get to buy something, say at a supermarket
checkout, you are given the option of DEBIT or CREDIT. DEBIT
is option 3) above CREDIT is option 4). It is advantageous to
choose CREDIT, ratherthan DEBIT,  for two reasons:

a) Choosing DEBIT actually costs DCU a small amount of money
that we have to pay to the Point of Sale Network. Whereas if
you choose CREDIT DCU actually receives a small amount of
money from VISA for each transaction (Interchange Income).
As an owner you are helping yourself and other members by
choosing CREDIT instead of DEBIT.

b) When you choose DEBIT the money is deducted from your
checking account IMMEDIATELY ie you stop earning interest
on it from the moment you you buy the goods. If you choose
CREDIT the money doesn't actually get deducted from your
account until VISA informs DCU. This usually takes a couple
of days.

By the way I am not trying to discourage people from doing
Point of Sale Transactions (DEBIT), I'm just pointing out the
differences in costs to your institution. We encourage you to
utilize POS transactions, especially if the CREDIT option is
not offered. Also some of you may like the feature of the real time
deduction from their checking account rather than having a
variable time float on the money. We primarily exist to serve your
needs and preferences so I encourage you to use the DCU in a
way that is convenient to you.

I hope the above answers your question. If not feel free to reply
or to call the info center (1-800-DCU-8797) who would be only
too glad to answer any question you may have. Also I encourage
you or any other member to fill in one of the "How are we doing"
cards available at any branch or electronically at our web page:
http:://www.dcu.com. We have been getting some excellent
comments/suggestions through both mediums.

Regards,

Dave Garrod
Secretary DCU Board of Directors 

% ====== Internet headers and postmarks (see DECWRL::GATEWAY.DOC) ======
% Received: from mail1.digital.com by us2rmc.zko.dec.com (5.65/rmc-22feb94) id AA01455; Mon, 28 Aug 95 22:49:47 -040
% Received: from emout04.mail.aol.com by mail1.digital.com; (5.65 EXP 4/12/95 for V3.2/1.0/WV) id AA27946; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 19:41:15 -070
% Received: by emout04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA23794; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 22:37:15 -0400
% Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 22:37:15 -0400
% From: [email protected]
% Message-Id: <[email protected]>
% To: mal009::MAGUIRE
% Cc: rowlet::ainsley, wldbil::kilgore
% Subject: Regarding DCU Check Card
    

    	I was pleased that you gave such a good description of the
    difference between DEBIT and CREDIT transactions.  In general
    a CREDIT transaction is pretty favorable to the individual (because
    the actual bill is deferred a small amount of time) and to the
    credit card organization (because they get paid by the company
    accepting the credit card for use).  The DEBIT card is very
    favorable to the organization accepting the card, and not so
    favorable to either the user or the bank/credit union.
    
    	For example, I tend to use CREDIT cards for larger purchases,
    especially with companies where this is the norm (where the cost
    to them is already rolled into the price of their goods).  I use
    cash or check for purchases with smaller companies, especially
    where I know they are trying to keep their costs down (independent
    stores, car repairs, school tuitions, etc.).  I never use a
    DEBIT card.  And if it's a small local company I ALWAYS ask
    whether they would prefer to be paid by check (instead of credit
    card).  You would be amazed at how many are more than willing to
    take a check!
    
    Dave Eklund
    

    Using CREDIT also provides a number of legal protections, such as the
    right to dispute your bill if you have a problem with the merchandise.
    I don't believe any such protections exist for DEBIT transactions, any
    more than they exist when writing a check.  That's why I use CREDIT
    for any large transaction where I may not discover a problem until after 
    I leave the store -- e.g. auto repairs or goods that I cannot inspect
    before purchase.  
    
    	Enjoy,
    	Larry