Conference 7.286::dcu

    Re .0:
    
>   How come I can open a checking account and have a business name printed
>   on the checks, but any deposits (in the form of a check) that I make 
>   into the account have to be made out to me, and not to the business
>   name?
    
    For starters, what's the title on your "business" account?  You'd be on
    firmer footing if it's something like "John Jones, dba JJ Consulting". 
    That should make it easier for you to endorse checks made out to the
    business name.  Check the Uniform Commercial Code at your local library
    so you'll be able to quote "chapter and verse" if you have further
    problems depositing your business receipts.

    >For starters, what's the title on your "business" account?  
    
    What's a 'title'?   The checks say "Fingerhut Photography".
    
    I've had a checking account at another bank for years with no problem
    making deposits like this.  
    
    I was going to move the account to DCU, but will probably have to 
    keep the first account open just for checks that get endorsed to
    "Fingerhut Photography".
    
    
    

    Re .2:
    
>   What's a 'title'?   The checks say "Fingerhut Photography".
    
    When you opened the account, you filled out a signature card.  Whatever
    you put at the top of that card is the account's title (identifying the
    OWNER of the account and the associated tax identification number). 
    I'd suggest you make the title read "David B. Fingerhut, dba Fingerhut
    Photography".  When you get a check made out either to yourself or to
    your business, endorse it with the account title and everyone should be
    happy.
    
>   I've had a checking account at another bank for years with no problem
>   making deposits like this.  
    
    DCU is unnecessarily picky about deposits.  That's old news.  If DCU
    could point to an actual problem with returned checks I'd be more
    sympathetic, but there's no such problem so I remain a critic.

    Has this question been asked of anyone at DCU?

	Yes, I have.  My account at the DCU has been for my Vanpool only.  For
  years everyone wrote out their checks to DCV #108 and the DCU accepted them
  for deposit.  One day I happened to be at the Mill and stopped to deposit them
  there.  They wouldn't let me do it.  I talked to the manager and he told me
  it had to be in my name as I owned the account.  I could have a separate
  account just for this unless authorized by Digital.  Digital would not
  accept the Vanpool as a valid separate employee activity (like softball teams)
  so I was stuck with having people make out their checks directly to me even
  though it was not my money.  I also end up having my Social Security Number
  on the account, I also have to pay the taxes on any interest.

			Danny

    
    RE: .5
    
    Have you asked Digital if they could set up an account with DCU similar
    to a League account?  (instead of using your personal account)  It
    would have the name of the vanpool, you could be the primary and the
    interest statements would go to DEC at the end of the year.
    

	Yes, I did ask Digital (sorry if that wasn't clear in my note).  I
  was not only turned down flat, they didn't even want to discuss the matter.


		Danny

Eh?  I don't see what the problem here is.  If somebody has
a valid a/k/a or d/b/a, then opening a checking account under
that name should be a matter of signing a few forms and paying
for the checks....

I have a friend back in Michigan who used to run a word-processing
and resume shoppe out of some sublet office space.  He had a "standard
checking account" and a d/b/a.  His checks read "The Wizard of Words."
People would write checks either to his business or to him personally,
he'd make deposits and withdrawals, and all concerned were happy.

./chris

    
    RE: .7
    
    That is strange.  The similarities between a vanpool and a League are
    great.  DEC probably doesn't want to get involved in managing and
    accounting for them like they do the Leagues.  It is a headache for all
    concerned IMO.
    

>Eh?  I don't see what the problem here is.  If somebody has
>a valid a/k/a or d/b/a, then opening a checking account under
>that name should be a matter of signing a few forms and paying
>for the checks....
    
    DCU doesn't allow dba accounts either.
    

   RE:.9

   I don't need Digital to manage the account, I do that using a Datatrieve
   application.  In any case the money comes in at the beginning of the month
   and goes out by the middle of the month.  Nothing stays except some small
   reserves ~$50.  I just need to keep the vanpool money separate from my own
   money.

		Danny

In that case, the simplest answer is probably to create a second checking
account -- it would be a -51 account, instead of your regular -5 sharedraft 
account.  I'm not sure what a minimum order of checks costs, but I think it's
just a few dollars.  You'll still pay the IRS tax on the interest, but you'll 
also get to keep the interest, which I think is only fair.  Your existing 
EasyCash card can be used to deposit to the account or withdraw from it, if 
you are an ATM user.  

I've found that using separate sharedraft accounts for different purposes
to be very effective.  I even have different amounts of money taken from
my paycheck to go into the various accounts, to help in budgeting.  This
doesn't let you put a name other than your own on the checks, but it seems
to cover all of the other issues.  

	Enjoy,
	Larry

    And since DCU only pays interest on balances above $1000, you might not
    have to worry about taxes on interest at all.

Re: last couple

Setting up a separate checking account would keep the funds 
separate.  However, I think the issue that .0 is asking about is
what checks will DCU cash.  If the van pool riders make the check
out to the driver, they'll cash it.  If they make it out to 
Vanpool #108 (or whatever), DCU won't cash it.  The question is
why won't they cash it unless it's made out to the owner?  If I
was a rider, I'd rather make it out to Vanpool #108 than to the 
driver and have to remember why I keep writing checks to this 
person.

It might not be fair to keep the interest, even though you pay taxes
on it, but it certainly is fair to reimburse yourself from the account
whatever it costs you in taxes to maintain it.

I am the treasurer of the Digital Employee Activities Committee of
Spit Brook (that's the official name).  We have a DCU checking account
in that name, with Digital's tax identification number rather than
my own SSAN.  I regularly deposit checks there made payable to
EACSB and reasonable variations of that.   In order to get permission
to use Digital's TIN, you need to be a *CHARTERED* organization.
Personnel should be able to help you set up the van pool as a chartered
organization.

Dave C.

    
    RE: .11
    
    I guess I was as clear as I could have been.  I meant DEC has certain
    reporting monthly requirements for accounts which the DEC clubs use. 
    DEC doesn't do the dya-to-day work of maintaining the account, but they
    want to know what is going on on a regular basis.
    
    And I am a bit surprised DEC doesn't want these vanpools handled
    similarly to the clubs and leagues. 
    
    

>However, I think the issue that .0 is asking about is
>what checks will DCU cash.  If the van pool riders make the check
>out to the driver, they'll cash it.  If they make it out to 
>Vanpool #108 (or whatever), DCU won't cash it.  
    
    
    Yes, that's what I was asking about.  
    So, will DCU accept a 3rd party check for deposit?  If I get a check
    made out to my company name, is there some way I can endorse it to make
    it into a 3rd party check made out to my personal name, and then
    deposit that?
    
    
    
    

    Re .10:
    
>   DCU doesn't allow dba accounts either.
    
    I beg to differ.  Both Massachusetts law and DCU's own charter allow
    "organizations of such persons" (referring to the stated field of
    membership) to hold accounts.  The courts have interpreted this to
    include proprietorships, trusts, et al.  (Mass. law is more explicit.)
    
    Digital Equipment Corporation is within its rights to limit the use of
    its own tax-id number, so that's not a DCU issue.  If you have a
    separate tax-id number for your account, use it.
    
    Unfortunately, DCU's standard answer for ANY question that's even a bit
    out of the ordinary has long been, "no".  Some progress has been made,
    but I suspect that you've outrun it.                                 

    Re .12
    
    	I've opened a -51 account when I moved to Ca.  so that my
    tenent/mgr. could have a account to make deposits and withdrawls with
    his own set of checks.  He is also a DCU member on his own and I was
    able to put both my name and his on the checks.  He only has access to
    the -51 account, but has made deposits to it and any other sub accounts
    of mine.  It worked great for the time I needed it...
    
    
    Doug

    >Unfortunately, DCU's standard answer for ANY question that's even a bit
    >out of the ordinary has long been, "no".  Some progress has been made,
    >but I suspect that you've outrun it.                                 
    
    Well, she did ask what "dba" means before saying "No", so you're probably 
    right.

	Re:.12.  I don't keep my own money in DCU since my my wife would have
  no access to it.  The only account I have is for the vanpool, so there is
  no need for a separate -51 account.

	Re:.14.  That's the real issue.  The checks are not for me personally,
  they're for paying the vanpool office (which is a part of Digital)

	Re:.15.  I did talk to personnel.  They passed me to someone else and
  their management and they refused to agree to a Digital TIN account, 
  point-blank without any desire to discuss the issue.  NOTE THAT THE MONEY ENDS
  UP GOING TO THE COMPANY!  It's not going outside.

	Re:.16.  I have no problem reporting to them monthly.  It's going to
  end up in  their account anyway.  This still aren't interested.


			Danny

    
    I wonder if there is some legal issue with these vanpools using a
    corporate league-type account?  Maybe this insulates the company in
    some way.  
    
    Usually when things don't make sense, there are lawyers involved... ;-)
    But it would be nice if they would just tell you this.

    I have to ask...
    
    What the heck does the acronym dba stand for?
    
    Don

dba == doing business as

"doing business as",  e.g. Larry Seiler dba Pixel Dust Hardware

I think the question of whether DEC's TIN should be used depend on details
of the vanpool setup.  Is the driver personally liable for the funds 
collected from the riders?  Or does the driver simply act for DEC in
collecting money from the riders?  If the latter, I think Digital's
ID should be on the account.  If the former, I can see why DEC doesn't
feel that they need to allow that... and I also think that in that case
the driver is entitled to the interest.  If any.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

    From a fairly recent run-in with a bank here in NH:  I was
    told to open an account with a "business" name (something
    besides the name(s) of the account holders) it was necessary
    to "register" the business with the state (revenue dept?);
    apparently this was so they could tax business income (no
    personal income tax in NH).
    
    Never bothered to check with the state to see if this was
    indeed true.

	Re:.25.  Technically as the van driver I am indeed responsible for the
  fares, even if noone pays me.  So yes, technically it is my money.  On the
  other hand I don't think that I should be responsible for it since I act as
  a conduit for the money and I don't benefit personally from the money.  From
  use of the van, yes, but not from the money.  This is one of those situations
  that I don't think I will ever be able to resolve satisfactorily.  This
  situation is really no different than the Sport Leagues around the Company,
  and in fact the Company actually benefits by tax credits for running vanpools.
  So this is to Digital's advantage.


			Danny

In NH, it's true that you have to register any name under which you do business
that's not your own. (nice of them to let you use your own name, huh?) For
example, if I wanted to start a business called "Granite State Outfitters",
I would have to register that name with the Secretary of State ($40 I think).
If I wanted to use the acronym too ("GSO") I'd have to register that also.
In this case (sole prop or partnership), you would see lots of D/B/A stuff.

Corporations are a little different -- they figure that if you're already
paying the $150+ to form a corporation, they'll waive the $40 name fee.

This is all as of several years ago, and I'm sure they've raised the fees and
made it more difficult.

Bryan

    I opened a small business last year (it also failed) and had to
    register the name with the state of NH. You pay a $50 fee and you get
    sole ownership of the company name for 5 years or longer. You must also
    register with the US Internal Revenue Service and get a tax ID number.
    If you plan on legitimate business, you need it to open your bank
    accounts. Then there's a fee for.......a cost of......a charge for...
    
    Ken

RE: .29

Those numbers are accurate (I'm in the registration process as we speak).  One
addition, however, just for completeness, is that a TIN is not necessarily
required.  A Schedule C business (Sole Proprietorship) works under your
normal SSN.

I had the same problem with DCV111 as Danny had with DCV108.  The only non-SSAN
tax ID that DCU would allow was DEC's, and DEC wouldn't allow their tax ID to
be used for vanpools.  I ended up getting a tax ID for the vanpool and going
to a real bank.  I'm pretty sure I complained about this situation in this
conference back in 1989.

    Re .all
    
    To be honest I don't our credit union establishing accounts for
    businesses. It's not a bank. It is a credit union for Digital Employees
    and associated people.
    
    If you personally are not liable for your business (good indication
    being that you don't have a separate TIN) then I'd prefer your business
    had its account elsewhere. Hopefully the DCU has learned its lesson
    from its totally unsuccessful foray into business loans (I meant
    investments!) in Cape Code Real Estate.
    
    I was a little peeved when they changed the bylaws just recently to
    allow some sorts of businesses to 'bank' with DCU.
    
    Hello Board, what's happening on that bylaw change? Has it been undone
    yet? And on another note hello board in general. Have any of the
    "REAL CHOICES" campaign promises been put into effect yet? If so which
    ones?
    
    Dave

They'll be brought up at the next board meeting - next week when we have our
2 day seminar about DCU. Remember, the board only meets once per month so
not much can be done by the board as a group in the meantime.

As to business accounts, what's wrong with somebody having a small account
for a small business? That's quite a different story from making business
loans down the cape.

With thie bylaw change to allow some businesses th BANK at DCU, it would
seem to make the most sense that member related (wife's, personal "hobby"
business, etc) be included in this class.

    Re .32:
    
>   To be honest I don't [want] our credit union establishing accounts for
>   businesses. It's not a bank. It is a credit union for Digital Employees
>   and associated people.
                                        
    Credit unions are established with a field of membership.  The only
    separate company that is explicitly within DCU's field is the Digital
    Equipment Corporation.
    
    A proprietorship that is wholly owned and operated by a DCU member IS
    within the field of membership, regardless of its need (or not) for a
    separate Taxpayer ID number.  This is simply a degenerate case of the
    "organizations of such persons" clause in �5 of the DCU Charter (and of
    a similar, but more explicit, clause in the relevant section of the
    Massachusetts General Laws).

    RE: .31  "handling vanpool fares and taxes on interest"
    
    >I had the same problem with DCV111 as Danny had with DCV108.  
    
    I don't have this problem with DCV080, but that's probably because I've
    always had everybody make their checks out directly to the "Digital
    Vanpool Program".  I only collect them and forward them.
    
    I'm still not happy with the idea that I am liable for any deadbeats. 
    If I was running this vanpool as a profit center I would charge an
    overhead to cover losses.  Because I am simply a clerk in this matter,
    I do not see why I should be fiscally liable.  Unfortunately, trying to
    talk sense with the Commuter Transportation Department is too much of a
    challenge for anyone with a full-time job commitment. 
    

    
.31> Unfortunately, trying to
.31> talk sense with the Commuter Transportation Department is too much of a
.31> challenge for anyone with a full-time job commitment. 
    
    In these times of upheaval and seemingly constant change, it's somehow
    comforting to know that there still exist one or two oases of unwavering
    certainty.
    
    Bill Kilgore
    DCV driver, 1979-1986 (but I'll get over it one of these days)
    

	RE:.31  or .32

	I don't run the vanpool as a business, it's an employee benefit, just
  like softball, etc.  I need to collect money and forward it to a Digital
  account, so why not use a Digital TIN?

	RE:.other

	The change in bylaws to allow businesses made be curious.  Who 
  instigated this change and for whom?  It would be interesting to see who
  opened a business account as soon as it got approved.

		Danny

    Re .38:
    
>   The change in bylaws to allow businesses made be curious.  Who instigated
>   this change and for whom?  It would be interesting to see who opened a
>   business account as soon as it got approved.
    
    To my knowledge, there has BEEN no such change (the field of membership
    is defined in the charter, anyway).  Both the existing charter and
    applicable law already allow "organizations" (proprietorships included)
    of people within the field of membership to have accounts.
    
    As a credit union, DCU is limited as to the types of services it can
    offer, so don't expect the DCU to operate as a trust company.  Credit
    unions tend to steer clear of exotic products in the interest of doing
    a few things right instead of a lot of things marginally.  I'll leave
    the assessment of DCU against such a standard to the reader.

re .38:

>	I don't run the vanpool as a business, it's an employee benefit, just
>  like softball, etc.  I need to collect money and forward it to a Digital
>  account, so why not use a Digital TIN?

Of course, this isn't a DCU problem, it's a Digital problem.  Digital doesn't
let vanpools use their tax number.  The DCU problem is that they don't let
organizations of DEC employees use a tax number other than DEC's.  That's
why I had to get a tax number *and* go to a real bank.

>	*And* go to a real bank.

	One of the issues of the past few months has been that the DEFCU
	was turning into a bank, at the expense of being a credit union.

	I question that the DEFCU should spend much effort to provide
	unique or limited demand services. It isn't a bank. The members have
	said that they don't want it to be a bank. The DEFCU should 
	concentrate on providing best in class services that benefit the
	broadest range of its membership.


						Tom_K

    So, does anyone know the answer to the question in .0?
    
    Why won't the credit union let me deposit a check made out to my
    company name?  
    
    Is it costing them extra money to do this?  
    
    Are they afraid the feds will reject it and return the check?  
    If so, why do other banks accept them with no questions?

    Re .42:
    
>   So, does anyone know the answer to the question in .0?
    
    I thought it had been answered, though with some qualifications.
    
>   Why won't the credit union let me deposit a check made out to my
>   company name?  
    
    The endorsement needs to have some relevance to the account name. 
    That's why I suggested you retitle your business checking account as
    "David B. Fingerhut dba (or d/b/a) Fingerhut Photography".  That way,
    it's clear to the DCU that YOU (personally) are the owner of the
    account while it establishes your second persona, "Fingerhut
    Photography".  Then you should be able to deposit checks made out
    either to you or to your business without hassle.
    
    You HAVE the right to make that change, so do it.  (Be prepared to
    point to the relevant portions of Massachusetts law if DCU resists.)
    
>   Is it costing them extra money to do this?
    
    Improperly endorsed checks are subject to return by the maker's bank. 
    When that happens, it costs DCU and you time/money to get the deposit
    straightened out.
    
>   Are they afraid the feds will reject it and return the check?
    
    Probably not the Feds.  More likely the institution upon which the
    check is drawn.
    
>   If so, why do other banks accept them with no questions?
    
    If the check is properly endorsed, then DCU's risk is minimal.  DCU is
    more risk-averse than many other institutions (unnecessarily so, IMHO).
                                                    

>>   Why won't the credit union let me deposit a check made out to my
>>   company name?  
    
>    The endorsement needs to have some relevance to the account name. 
>    That's why I suggested you retitle your business checking account as
>    "David B. Fingerhut dba (or d/b/a) Fingerhut Photography".  
>    You HAVE the right to make that change, so do it.  (Be prepared to
>    point to the relevant portions of Massachusetts law if DCU resists.)
    
    Three different people at the credit union now have told me they
    don't allow dba accounts.  Unfortunately I don't have time to go to 
    a law library so that I can cite the paragraph and verse for them.  I'll
    stick with my other bank.
    
    

    Well, a year after entering the base note, I received my first check
    mistakenly made out to "Fingerhut Photography" rather than "David
    Fingerhut".  Anyone have any idea what I can do to get this check
    cashed?  It's drawn from a back in MN, and I'm in MA.
    
    I'd hate to have to open up a temporary savings acct at a neighborhood
    bank just for the purpose of depositing this check.  
    
    Is there a way to mail a check to a bank it's drawn from and have them
    send me a cashier's check?