Conference 7.286::dcu

    Dave,
    
    They are going to mail the new card to your home & the mail
    will not include your PIN. This seems good enough to me.
    
    dave
    
    

I lost an ATM card that I had at another bank (which has no foreign ATM fees,
btw).  It was replaced at no cost.

Does it really cost the credit union $5 to process and mail a new ATM card?  I
would expect a "nominal" fee, perhaps, while we are getting back on our feet, 
but this seems steep.

Elaine

    $5 certainly seems nominal to me.

    
    I consider $5 nominal as well, but...
    
    What about the other side of it.  My bank charges $3 no matter
    what the reason is for needing a replacement i.e. if an ATM chews
    up my card so that it won't work anymore it costs me to get
    another one and that *includes* the bank's own ATMs!  That's part
    that gripes me.
    
    Steve
    
    

    
    I'm sure I'm missing some principle of high finance here but:
    
    	X number of transactions (at an ATM) X $1.00 per = X number $
    	O number of transactions (keep-your-silly-card)  = O number $
    
    They should be eager to get you a card ASAP.
    
    

    $3?
    $5?
    
    Doesn't seem to make much difference, given the inconvenience of it
    all.
    
    Now if the charge were $15!

    Not only is the replacement card mailed to your house, the PIN number
    is as well, or at least it was, in a spearate mailing (I have only had 
    to replace my card once and that was about 5 years ago so I'm no expert.)
    

re .1,.7

Oh, they're not going to issue me a new PIN; that's not required because
I stated that the PIN was not lost with the card.  (Not only did I state
it, but it's the truth.)  If they were going to issue me a new PIN, the
PIN would be mailed to my address of record separately from the new
card.  That's would be just fine.  That's not what I feel somewhat
insecure about.

My insecurity is about how little information I had to give them to
convince them I was the owner of my account:  Just my DIGITAL BADGE
NUMBER and my SSAN.   It's extremely easy to find out someone's badge
number (and even easier to find out someone's name if you know their
badge number), and it's fairly easy to find someone's SSAN.

I believe my funds to be secure (because they mail things only to the
address of record--that's very good), but it would be relatively easy
to perpertrate a denial of service attack against someone by calling
the DCU and giving them the person's badge and SSA numbers and saying
that the card was lost.  It would be much more difficult for someone
to discover my mother's maiden name, e.g.

Re $5 fee.

It's nominal, but it's petty.  I already admitted I was willing to pay
it in order to regain the convenience of having the card, but it pissed
me off.

Dave C.

    Dave,
    
    	When I lost my card, they demanded to issue me a new PIN. A local
    bank machine ate my card at the time. I too am dismayed that all they
    wanted was the info you mentioned. They should have issued a new PIN as
    well.

RE: $5

It's not the money, anyone can afford $5.   It's just another example of DCU
nickel-and-diming us.   If the DCU wants to make money, stop the petty fees and
give out more loans.

	This is one example of where I disagree.  It does cost money to issue
  a new card and it's not the cost of the plastic.  People have to be involved
  and their time costs money.  So I don't think you should ask the DCU (i.e.
  the members) to shoulder your loss.  $5 is actually very little.

	I also don't see a problem with their not asking you for personal
  information.  After all they send it to the mailing address on file.  If you
  had supplied them with a different address, then that would be a different
  matter.  I shouldn't matter who asked for it, or whether or not they are able
  to give personal details, they card gets sent the same way and to the same
  place.

		Danny

    I lost my card a while back (actually my wallet was stolen).  I had to
    pay $5, also.  They asked if I had the PIN in the wallet and since I
    did not, I told them so.  I was not issued a new PIN.

    I think what gripes everyone is that DCU's $5 charge is not the NORM in
    the industry.  If everyone charged $5 for new cards, no one would
    complain.

    The other problem is that it will take DCU around 2 weeks to get you a
    new card.  Everyone else has you a new one in less than a week.   You
    feel ripped off when DCU charges you $5 but takes twice as long as the
    ones that do not charge you.  (Note that I am comparing times
    VISA/MC/MOBIL/DISCOVER).

    	- mark

	My wife's wallet was stolen - but was recovered the same day.
	Still, we cancelled all the credit cards because we didn't want
	to take the chance that somebody knew her credit card numbers and 
	expiration dates.

	The only card that cost money to replace was her Baybank Mastercard -
	$5.00.  

	FWIW, I'm glad $5 isn't the norm, or this would have cost us about
	$50.00!  $5 isn't much, but it does add up.  

	-- Jim

	P.S. Since we recovered her ATM card, and the number wasn't in her 
	wallet, there was no need to get that replaced!

.11>  	This is one example of where I disagree.  It does cost money to issue
.11>    a new card and it's not the cost of the plastic.  People have to be
.11>    involved and their time costs money.  So I don't think you should ask
.11>    the DCU (i.e. the members) to shoulder your loss.  $5 is actually very
.11>    little.


IMO, the problem in discussions of this type spring from a deeper level. (One
which the previous Board had trouble understanding.)  It's not a question of
current dollars.  The question is improperly phrased.

To state it correctly (IMO):  if I am the DCU, and you are my ATM customer,
and you lose your card, is it not worth $5 to me (the DCU) to have you happy
with the "good service" you'll brag about if I treat you well?  Is it not
likely that your opinion of me is worth far more than $5?

In other words, the question should be stated not in terms of "other members",
but in terms of future business from the very same customer.

(The extreme example of the old way of thinking was that business of the fees
on checking accounts.  Driving shareholders to leave the credit union was the
result -- far more expensive than a couple of dollars a month.)

    re .8
    
    As the victim of a "denial of service" "prank", I can tell you what a
    hassle it is once these security procedures are set in place.  Your
    bank will not give you the time of day unless you answer really bizarre
    questions like "What is your mother's maiden name?" or some odd thing
    from your applications and records.
    
    These procedures are placed into your records once you complain about a
    problem with someone else making changes to your account.
    
    It is a pain!  But, worth it.

    Comparing a charge card to an ATM card is apples and oranges.  Most
    cards charge an annual fee.  All charge interest on unpaid balances. 
    Most charge a fee for cash advances.  For this reason, they are quite
    willing to eat the cost of giving a replacement card.  Also, charge
    card companies are generally responsible for all charges on a
    lost/stolen card.  They want to issue a new card with (usually) a new
    number as fast as possible to protect themselves.
    
    An ATM card on the other hand is not a direct revenue generator for a
    financial institution.  If we can believe DCU, the $1 fee they charge
    goes into the external network supplying the service and not into the
    coffers of the DCU.
    
    For a fraud to be committed using the method of calling DCU and
    supplying a member's badge number and SSN and claiming a lost card, the
    thief would also have to have the PIN and be camped out at the member's
    mailbox.
    
    Most of the financial institutions I've dealt with have a fee for
    replacing a lost card.  Maybe this isn't the norm, but it certainly
    isn't an isolated incident.  DCU also doesn't hide the fact.  I believe
    it's in the published fee schedule available at any branch office and
    it is in the ATM card literature.

Well, to be fair, the bank which replaced my lost ATM card for free is Safety
Fund Bank.  They are best known for their completely free checking accounts
(no service charge, no minimum balance, no charge for basic checks, no interest,
no fee at foreign ATMs).

This card is for a savings account.  The interest rate isn't the greatest, but
the convenience of being able to use any ATM to do banking is wonderful.  When
they replaced the card, they told me that the PIN number I used the first time
would be the new PIN.  Couldn't be easier.

Elaine

    RE: 540.16 (MACNEAL)

    >Comparing a charge card to an ATM card is apples and oranges.  Most
    >cards charge an annual fee.

    I am glad I do not have any of the cards you do.  I only have ONE out
    of MANY that charge a fee.  I only keep that one because it is in my
    wifes name and she wants it.  None of the CC companies charged me a
    cent for replacing my CC, but DCU charged me for both the CC and ATM
    card.

    >All charge interest on unpaid balances. 
    >Most charge a fee for cash advances.  For this reason, they are quite
    >willing to eat the cost of giving a replacement card.  Also, charge
    >card companies are generally responsible for all charges on a
    >lost/stolen card.

    You would think DCU would do the same for their CC's, as everything you
    have said above applies to DCU also...

    >They want to issue a new card with (usually) a new
    >number as fast as possible to protect themselves.

    Issuing a new card does not protect them, but canceling the previous
    one does.  The CC companies want happy customers and service is one way
    of doing this (I asked...).
    
    >An ATM card on the other hand is not a direct revenue generator for a
    >financial institution.  If we can believe DCU, the $1 fee they charge
    >goes into the external network supplying the service and not into the
    >coffers of the DCU.

    The ATM card is a money saver.  It allows a person to execute a
    transaction without involving a human.  That is a savings, providing
    they would now have to visit a DCU teller to transact the same business
    because they do not have a card.
    
    >Most of the financial institutions I've dealt with have a fee for
    >replacing a lost card.

    I am surprised.  Out of 10 cards, ONLY DCU charged me.

    >Maybe this isn't the norm, but it certainly
    >isn't an isolated incident.  DCU also doesn't hide the fact.  I believe
    >it's in the published fee schedule available at any branch office and
    >it is in the ATM card literature.

    DCU does publish the information.

    	- mark

�    I am surprised.  Out of 10 cards, ONLY DCU charged me.
    
    You have 10 ATM cards?

    Any time I have called DCU for information that can't be given to just
    anyone over the phone, they asked my badge #, SS #, and hire date.
    

Someone (Macneal?) wrote that ATM cards aren't revenue generators for 
financial institutions.  I would disagree.  I would not bank
at an institution that didn't provide ATM services, and I would
guess that there are many like me who feel the same way.  I'm
hooked on the convenience of being able to get cash or deposit
checks 24 hours a day. Further, I hypothesize that ATM services 
reduce overhead costs.

The $5.00 charge to replace a card, while not an unreasonable amount,
seems rather petty to me.  Since the person who lost her card has
already been robben, or has lost a wallet, or had some other inconvenience
happen to them, it seems like adding insult to injury to slap on a $5.00
charge.

Theft by acquiring services, and denial of services harrasment are both
problems.  Sending a new ATM card to someone based soley on claim of loss
and the provision or SSN and badge number seems a little free and easy.
On the other hand, turning off the service should be easy.  I don't want
to have to remember my grandmother's first cousin's sister's oldest son's
wife's maiden name to get my ATM service shut down after being mugged.
Denial of services harrasment can be a major nuisance, but I claim less so
than being ripped off. 

/chris

�Someone (Macneal?) wrote that ATM cards aren't revenue generators for 
�financial institutions.  
    
    It was me, and that's close to what I said.  I said it wasn't a DIRECT
    revenue generator like a credit card is (and even if you have a no
    annual fee card that you pay off every month, the places you use it at
    are charged a fee to accept it).
    
    As to the replacement fee, perhaps DCU could apply it a little less
    unilateraly.  Theft would be a good reason to waive the fee.  Losing it
    in the couch cushions might be worth a fee (heck, I reported travelers
    checks missing only to find them in "that spot where I'd make sure I
    woulnd't lose them" the next day).  Repeated instances of loss should
    definitely incur a fee.  

re .9

>    ... They should have issued a new PIN as well.

Yes, I told the person I spoke to that even though I didn't "lose" my
PIN with the card, it was acceptable to me to get a new PIN.  She said
it wasn't necessary, and, though I can't recall her exact words, I
understood her to mean that they issue a new PIN if, and only if, the
old one was compromised.

Dave C.