Conference 7.286::dcu

    I haven't received mine either.  I keep looking.  I will check at the
    DCU tomarrow.
    
    Jim Morton
    

    Re .1  some added info.
    
    They have to have the correct address, because I did the letter
    SUGGESTING that I vote for the NOMINATED candidates, and the address
    was correct on it.
    
    Maybe they don't want me to vote :-).
    
    Jim Morton
    

    I received my ballot in Colorado Springs last Thursday.

    
    Anybody who hasn't received their ballot by now should call DCU.  My
    ballots was postmarked March 16th in Hingham MA.  I received it March
    17th in Holden MA.
    
    I've received e-mail from a couple of other people who haven't received
    their ballots yet either.
    
    Anybody know the date of record used by DCU to determine who got ballots?

    I hate to think of this.  Might the DCU not have sent ballots to those
    with only $5 in their account, knowing they were keeping their accounts
    only so they could vote in this election?

    Well, I keep several hundred in my account.  Plus I have been a member
    for 9 years, or somewhere around there.  
    
    Jim Morton
    

    You might verify with them that your birthdate is correct.  I
    understand that members under a certain age do not vote, but I could
    be wrong.
    
    Steve

    
    We should check the latest bylaws and/or election guideline -- perhaps
    only Digital people with "a reasonable amount of management experience"
    are allowed to vote... :-)
    
    If you got a DCU statement last month addressed to you, and you haven't
    yet received a ballot, you should definitely be calling DCU; I suggest
    Patti D'Addieco at 223-6735 x239.
    

RE:.5 by SSDEVO::EGGERS "Anybody can fly with an engine."

> Might the DCU not have sent ballots to those with only $5 in their account, 
> knowing they were keeping their accounts only so they could vote in this 
> election?

Nope.  I have $5 in my account most of the time.  I got a ballot quite a while
ago.


Phil

     <<< Note 510.5 by SSDEVO::EGGERS "Anybody can fly with an engine." >>>

>    I hate to think of this.  Might the DCU not have sent ballots to those
>    with only $5 in their account, knowing they were keeping their accounts
>    only so they could vote in this election?

	Same here. Both my wife and I received ballots last week in spite
	of the fact that our accounts have only a $5 balance. 

Jim

    Re: last two
    
    Glad to hear it.

    
    I talked to Gail (I think that was her name) at the CXO DCU, and she
    verified that I was a member, and said she would call it in immediatly
    to have one sent to my house.  She said I should have received one by
    now.
    
    Jim Morton
    

    Hmmm.  I suppose that means the official counters have to verify that
    no member has sent in multiple ballots.  That doesn;t sound too hard
    given the other checking they are already doing.

    
    A person who wishes to remain anonymous sent me mail recently about
    why he didn't receive a ballot.  The text of the message follows.
    Seems very strange DCU would be culling out ballots based on a members
    mailing address.  Anybody else come across this?
    
    =======================================================================
I didn't receive my ballot yet! I called the DCU to find out. I was told
that I didn't get the ballot because I had mya office address listed with
them. They mail the statements and other brochures to this address, but
wouldn't mail the ballots. However, after I insisted that I should get the
ballot also to the same mailing address, I was told that they will mail
it to my office address. I hope to get it in a few days.
    =======================================================================

>I didn't receive my ballot yet! I called the DCU to find out. I was told
>that I didn't get the ballot because I had mya office address listed with
>them. They mail the statements and other brochures to this address, but
>wouldn't mail the ballots. However, after I insisted that I should get the
>ballot also to the same mailing address, I was told that they will mail
>it to my office address. I hope to get it in a few days.
 

  This is interesting.  There is some validity to their concern about sending
  the ballot to your office address, since potentially anyone can pick up the
  ballot from your internal mailbox, especially considering that it says
  BALLOT in large letters across the front of the envelope.  On the other
  hand, since you elected to have all your DCU mail sent to the office, you
  should be sent ALL DCU mail to that address even if it is a ballot.
  Presumeably you received John Sims directive to vote at that same address.
  Right?

		Danny

    
    RE: .15
    
    I guess this all gets back to the PO box discussion and DCU deciding
    what is 'secure' and what isn't.  I wonder how many other members they
    decided didn't have 'secure' addresses and didn't mail a ballot to?
    why is a ballot is of any more concern that the persons monthly statements
    though?  The member wasn't even notified though.  They wouldn't have
    even been expecting a ballot if they weren't aware of the election. 

    DCU sent my ballot to my PO Box.

	RE: .16
	  P.O.Boxes are secure.  Not anyone can get into one. Office Mailboxes
  are totally open.  DCU is allowed to have some concern over the delivery of
  ballots aren't they?

		Danny

.18>  DCU is allowed to have some concern over the delivery of
.18>  ballots aren't they?
    
    Absolutely! But don't you find it totally outrageous that they acted on
    that concern by not sending a ballot to an owner, *and not letting
    the owner know*?
    
    And I'm sure it's some well worn axiom that if this happened to one
    owner, it most likely happened to n owners.
    
    The interesting question would be: did this owner get ballots delivered
    to an office mailbox for previous elections?
    

       If these addresses are secure enough that DCU would send blank
    checks to them, you'd think they'd be secure enough for a ballot, no?
                                       Denny

	So let me get this straight, it's ok to put "Members for a Qualified
	Board" fliers in office mailboxes, but not the ballots themselves...

					:-)

						Tom_K

    
    I guess what we need to know is what criteria is DCU using to determine
    whether people get ballots or not.  I *never* thought they would be
    examining the address itself to determine whether to send a ballot.  Is
    any of this written down or spelled out by DCU so that the members know
    how they are distributing ballots?
    

    Re .22: To answer that question, you'd have to get the copy of the
    Election Guidelines that's dated 03-Apr-1992, 16:47, or later.
    Good luck.

I received my ballot at my office address.

  >	  P.O.Boxes are secure.  Not anyone can get into one. Office Mailboxes
  >are totally open.  DCU is allowed to have some concern over the delivery of
  >ballots aren't they?
    
    If DCU is willing to send ALL other mail to an address, the ballot
    should also be sent there.  Think about it, a PIN sent through mail is
    worth by far more than a ballot, in real dollar terms.
    
    	- mark

      Well the date for casting my vote for the board has come and gone.
  Unfortunately I never received the ballot despite calling twice for it.
  Because I was out of the office I was unable to keep calling the DCU.
 
      I just wonder how many others didn't receive their ballot. I also
  wonder how many others didn't know that there was an election going on
  since there are a lot of members who don't know that this conference 
  exists.

  MM

re:  .26

Have you contacted DCU again about this matter?  Further, have you
been receiving your statements, and DCU mail (like the Sims letter about
the election) at your regular address?  Do you receive your DCU materials
at a post office box, or at your mail stop within Digital?

Anybody else never get a ballot despite attempts to get one?

./chris

    
    It took DCU/auditors 3 weeks to get a ballot to somebody on the west
    coast.  They received it last Monday or Tuesday and Fed Ex'd it back 
    to make sure it got back in time.
    
    Another person I know and spoke with on Thursday received his ballot
    that day.  I gave him the name and number of the auditor and they
    appear to have accepted his faxed ballot.
    
    There are just too many of these missing ballots to ignore IMO.  The
    auditor is going to receive some heavy questioning about this at the
    annual meeting.  
    
    I am also going to write all this up and submit a complaint to the NCUA
    as well as any other agency that may take an interest.  It is always
    much better to have real names of people to include.  If anybody out
    there didn't recive a ballot, or you know of somebody that didn't
    receive a ballot, please get in touch with me.

�    There are just too many of these missing ballots to ignore IMO. 
    
    Can you put a real number on this?

    Quite frankly, one is too many.

>�    There are just too many of these missing ballots to ignore IMO. 
    
>    Can you put a real number on this?
    
    How many would it take before you would consider this a problem?
    
    	- mark

    
    Re: .29
    
    > Can you put a real number on this?
    
    You've got to be kidding.  Are you implying that if the number is small
    it's not a big deal.  I agree with the "one is too many" comment,
    especially if it was the one addressed to me!
    
    Steve
    

    I'm not talking in idealistic terms here.  I'm talking about reality. 
    When was the last time you heard of the US postoffice delivery 100% of
    the mail they receive?  Folks in here were justifying the use of PO
    Boxes instead of home delivery due to problems.  We all work for a
    computer company.  How many of us believe computers and their operators
    to be 100% infallible?
    
    I just don't put alot of faith into ancedotal evidence and the attempts
    to extrapolate from it.

I'll grant you the part about our wonderful postal service and suggest
that nobody in there right mind could reasonably expect 50,000 ballots
to be 100% deliverable by the post office.  On the other hand, what about
those cases where the individual contacted DCU, and never received
a ballot?  

I agree that everyone who is eligible should have the opportunity to vote.
And I do agree that with the assertion that one undelivered ballot is
one to many.  Shareholders have a responsibility to receive the ballot and
to vote.  DCU has a responsibility to mail ballots, and handle those 
situations in which a ballot was not received.

./chris

    
    There are about 200 people in my building; about 20 or so of them have
    expressed any interest on the election directly to me; two of those
    had not received their ballot weeks after they were sent.
    
    This may be anecdotal, but if the two missing ballots were the result
    of post office problems, I figure I would fail to receive one of each of
    my monthly bills every two years or so.
    

    
    RE: .33
    
    "I just don't put alot of faith into ancedotal evidence and the attempts
    to extrapolate from it."
    
    From the gist of most of your replies, it seems to me you consider
    just about everything "anecdotal evidence".  We have real names of real
    people who haven't received ballots or people who tried for 2-3 weeks
    to receive one.  There is nothing anecdotal about any of it.
    
    There is also nothing anecdotal about DCU simply not sending ballots to
    internal DEC mailing addresses, with no notice to the member.  
    
    

I think we are "violently disagreeing" here.  Keith wants to know how many
confirmed cases of failure to receive a ballot there are.  I'm sure we'd
all like to know that number.  It's a useful number to wave in the faces
of the auditing firm, the NCUA, and the person who hired the auditing firm.

Also, how many people called to ask for a replacement ballot and didn't get
one?  I know of one case myself -- out of the perhaps 10 people whom I've
asked whether they got their ballots.  I have sometimes in my life not
received mail that was purportedly sent to me, but I have never failed to
receive both the original mail and the replacement.  The odds are against 
it, especially with first class mail.

In conclusion, the evidence that many people did *not* receive ballots (and
also did not receive the replacement ballots they were promised) is not at 
all anecdotal.  However, it is indeed interesting to find out how many
confirmed cases can be cited.  It will be hard to estimate the real number
of missing ballots.  However, if we can find just 10 cases out of the few
thousand people who read (and pay attention to) electronic mail about the
DCU, then I would consider that a highly significant number that cannot be
explained away by citing errors at the post office.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

PS:  

>    There is also nothing anecdotal about DCU simply not sending ballots to
>    internal DEC mailing addresses, with no notice to the member.  
    
I don't think we should assume that this is the reason why he/she did not
receive a ballot at a DEC inernal address.  As I recall it, that was the
excuse given by a DCU representative, but I long ago stopped believing things
simply because a DCU representative says them!  If this statement was
incorrect, then that raises other questions -- like, why would the DCU rep
say such a thing?  And why wouldn't the Board members who read this file go
orbital at hearing such an amazing statement, find out the truth (or rather,
order a paid DCU manager to find out the truth) and then report it?  Lots of
questions, and very few answers coming from the people in a position to find
out.  I hope today's events change that.  And I hope to eventually find out
why that person did not receive a ballot at his/her internal DEC address.
Maybe it really was because of the DEC internal address, but that raises
just as many (and just as disturbing) questions.

    Thanks, Larry.  Let's try to get real numbers and root causes.
    
    Also try to keep in mind that while 0 defects is a great goal, it is
    one which is almost impossible to acheive.
    
    I've seen too many "My friend's friend knows someone who was charged
    $500 for a cookie recipe" to take everything in a notesfile as gospel.

Most welcome.  It is certainly true that one should be careful about
believing "I heard that someone said that someone else" stories, or
even stories that claim something is happening but provide no 
corraborating details (like the yearly "drug stars" warning, which has
been proven to have originated in a misunderstanding).

However, I don't think that's what's happening here.  The person I know
of has given permission for her name to be distributed -- and wants to 
make sure that people know that, although she was promised a replacement
ballot in 3 days, she didn't get that one either.  I'll be happy to
provide her name to anyone who asks, though I see no point in posting
it here.  Also, the other stories I recall are all of the form of "I've 
spoken directly with someone who didn't get a ballot" -- not "I heard
someone talking about someone who didn't get a ballot".  And there are
a surprizing number of them, given the very limited sample space.

I guess my point is that I think it is appropriate to be sceptical in
general, but that in this particular case I don't believe that scepticism
is warranted.  But I agree 100% that it's a good idea for someone to find 
out how many confirmed cases can be established.  It sounds to me like
a good job for the new Board, or for some public spirited volunteer.
Hey, Keith, you've demonstrated your concern about DCU issues, would you
like to volunteer to help with something?

	Enjoy,
	Larry

�Hey, Keith, you've demonstrated your concern about DCU issues, would you
�like to volunteer to help with something?
    
    I'm afraid that if I volunteer for anything else, my wife will shoot
    me.
    
    So what do we have, tens, hundreds, thousands of ballots not getting to
    members?  I've seen the number 50,000 used in here for the number of
    ballots that need to be sent out (is that accurate?).  If there were 20
    ballots that didn't get out, that's about 400 ppm (the target for one
    of SCO's operations is < 1000 ppm).  Was it a DCU problem?  A DCU
    election conspiracy?  A Post Office problem?  A member problem ("well,
    sorry honey, but it wasn't a statement, and it wasn't a bill, and it
    had sat on the counter for a couple of days so I tossed it" happens at
    my house)?

    Re: .-1
    
    I think it is pretty clear from the whole series of notes that nobody
    knows, and that is part of the problem.  Like other things involving
    the DCU, the real problem may be much larger (or much smaller) than the
    tip of the iceberg, to mix a metaphor.  And it is *very* hard to find
    out, which itself is part of the problem.
    
    There also appear to be real cases where a request for a replacement
    ballot was ineffective.  That is less likely to be explained by,
    "Honey, I tossed it."

>     So what do we have, tens, hundreds, thousands of ballots not getting to
>     members?  I've seen the number 50,000 used in here for the number of
>     ballots that need to be sent out (is that accurate?).  If there were 20
>     ballots that didn't get out, that's about 400 ppm (the target for one
>     of SCO's operations is < 1000 ppm).  

Keith, if you are going to be an honest skeptic, then I feel that you have 
an obligation to be equally skeptical about both sides.  And if you are
going to be a critic, you have an obligation to read the stuff you are
criticizing.  As I said, I would consider 10 missing ballots significant...

	-->  GIVEN THE SAMPLE SIZE WE ARE INVESTIGATING!  <--

No, I wouldn't consider 20 missing ballots clear evidence of mismanagement
by the auditor over a field of all 50,000 or so ballots.  Although it would
still raise questions in my mind.  But we are talking about a *much* smaller 
sample size here, as I said over and over again.  

>     Was it a DCU problem?  A DCU election conspiracy?  

The latter seems unlikely -- there is no reason to suppose that many of these
people whose ballots are missing were going to vote against the nominees.

>    A Post Office problem?  

You could call the post office and ask what precentage of their first 
class mail goes astray, then post facts.  Or you can simply continue to
toss dust at the people who are working to find facts.  I suspect that
the post office loses less than 20 out of 50,000, for what it's worth.
Why not post the results of your personal researches (as so many of the
rest of us are doing), instead of simply questioning people's facts?

>     A member problem ("well, sorry honey, but it wasn't a statement, and 
>     it wasn't a bill, and it had sat on the counter for a couple of days 
>     so I tossed it" happens at my house)?

Sure, it happens -- and that's one reason why we'll never know just how
many ballots were undelivered.  In my limited experience, the people who 
aren't CERTAIN that they didn't get a ballot are not claiming that they 
didn't get one.  These claims are only coming from people who 1) care about
the election (eliminates 70%-90%), and communicate with someone associated
with this file (eliminates most of the rest, I suspect), and who are pretty
sure that they actually didn't get their ballot.  

	Larry Seiler

    
    Re: .40
    
    >So what do we have, tens, hundreds, thousands of ballots not getting to
    >members?  I've seen the number 50,000 used in here for the number of
    >ballots that need to be sent out (is that accurate?).  
    >If there were 20 ballots that didn't get out, that's about 400 ppm
    >(the target for one of SCO's operations is < 1000 ppm).  
    
    Your numbers add up to about a 4.9 sigma process for getting ballots
    to members.  Slightly better than the generally agreed 4 sigma as
    being the average company.
    
    But let's look further to the ones who specifically called and asked
    for ballots *and* were promised them.  How many were there who did
    that?  I don't know so let's guess and say 50.  I haven't kept score
    along the way, but I recall at least 2 documentable cases mentioned
    here of ones who called, were promised, and got nothing.  So for 50
    tries they failed on 2.  That is 40,000 ppm or about 3.2 sigma. So
    their intended process is 100 times better than whatever method they
    are using to do fix what shouldn't have been broken in the first
    place!!!!!!!!!!!!  A rework effort 100 times worse than what it is
    intending to fix!!!  And that's if there were as many as 50 who called
    which I doubt.  If it was fewer than 50, the numbers are even worse!!!
    You may think that's OK, but as a customer, I find it totally
    unacceptable.  
    
    > Was it a DCU problem?  A DCU election conspiracy?  A Post Office
    > problem?  
    
    What difference does it make.   I'm the customer and I want my ballot.
    Don't give me excuses, give me my ballot.
    
    I'd love to be in business and have customers ready and willing to 
    excuse unacceptable performance.
    
    Steve
    

    Larry, I think we are agreeing again.
    
�    > Was it a DCU problem?  A DCU election conspiracy?  A Post Office
�    > problem?  
�    
�    What difference does it make.   I'm the customer and I want my ballot.
�    Don't give me excuses, give me my ballot.
    
    I wasn't making excuses.  I was listing possible root causes which is
    one of the first steps towards finding a solution.

    
    Re: .44
    
    First, I'm not Larry.
    
    > I wasn't making excuses.  I was listing possible root causes
    > which is one of the first steps towards finding a solution.
    
    Second, It is laudable that you want to help them figure out
    what is wrong, however, I think that is what we are paying them
    to do.  I expect as customer only to tell them what I don't
    like and for them to fix it.
    
    Steve
    

�    First, I'm not Larry.
    
    Sorry, I guess that wasn't clear.  I wasn't addressing you in that
    portion of my reply.
    
�    Second, It is laudable that you want to help them figure out
�    what is wrong, however, I think that is what we are paying them
�    to do.  I expect as customer only to tell them what I don't
�    like and for them to fix it.
    
    Well, if this is going to be a Credit Union we are more than customers. 
    Isn't that right Phil?  (This last sentence isn't directed at you,
    Steve).

re .46

I guess the root cause of my frustration is my (possibly incorrect)
impression that you don't see this as a problem because we have documented
evidence for only a small fraction of 50,000 ballots going astray.  I think 
it is a problem because we have evidence of it being widespread among a 
small sample space -- and of being even more widespread among the even 
smaller sample space of people who were promised replacement ballots.
At the least, I think there is enough evidence to warrant investigation.

I request the new Board members to set one of the paid professionals to
work investigating what went wrong with the ballot distribution process.
The goal is to find out how and why it happened, and then take steps to
see that it doesn't happen again.  We may never have another situation
where enough people are aware of the election (and care about it) to even
find out if the ballots went out successfully.  This issue isn't related
to the financial performance of the DCU, but it is related to trust, and
that's one of the most valuable assets of any financial institution.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

DCU called me (to my knowledge without the new board requesting it) today
to find out who didn't get ballots. If you know anybody who didn't get
ballots, please call @DCU Sandy Ramhalo - sorry, the spelling may not be
right and I don't have her number, but the central number is 223-6735.
She's looking into this very issue right now.