Conference 7.286::dcu

    Re .0:
    
    One of the distinctions between true checking accounts (from banks)
    and NOW (Negotiable Order of Withdrawl) accounts at other types
    of financial institutions is who ends up with the instrument (check).
    
    A NOW is a withdrawl slip.  It returns to the financial institution.
    A check is essentially a promissory note.  It returns to its maker.
    
    In spite of DCU's use of the term "checking" for the -05 account,
    it's really a NOW account.  DCU is entitled to charge you a modest
    ($10 seems a bit steep) fee for digging through its archives to
    provide you with a copy of a negotiated NOW draft.

I don't know if this is relevant or not, but a bank which I have (what I
think is) a checking account in gives you the option (when you open the
account) of either getting your checks back or the bank keeping them.
I opted to get them back, so I don't know what they charge to give you
a copy, but I don't think it was very much (<$10).

Is it required for a NOW to be kept by the bank?

- Jeff

It costs banks a lot of $$ to return your checks.  A credit union 
saves you money (or higher interest rates, etc) supposedly by not 
offering this feature. Used to be banks HAD to offer it, now I don't 
think they do.  HOWEVER, DCU will get you a copy FREE if you show them 
a letter from an external source asking for it (e.g., the gas co asks 
for proof of payment of an old bill).

    The DCU doesn't have checking accounts, they are called sharedraft
    accounts (and I think that is what DCU always calls them -- at least
    that is what you see on the statements). But I'm not really sure what
    the distinction really means. 
    
    Re: not returning checks. The DCU doesn't keep all the original
    checks on file, they are microfilmed (and then destroyed I presume).
    If you need to get a copy of an already processed check, you get
    this little (about 3" X 6") photocopy of the microfilmed copy; you
    don't get an actual copy of the original check (at least that is
    what I got when I did this once).
    
    I believe it also saves the DCU a lot of money to not have to sort
    through all the checks and stuff them in with your statement envelopes.
    (Imagine how late the statements would be if they had to do this
    - they're late enough as it is!)
    
    -Glenn-

    
    re .0:
    
    You can get a copy of your check without being charged anything
    if you need your cancelled check as a receipt (proof of purchase,
    or proof of payment..) - you only have to tell them that reason
    and you won't get charged. 
    
    Nisreen

    Re: .5 Not true about not getting charged.  I requested a copy of
    one of my checks as a receipt for a downpayment on my condo.  I
    gave them a week's notice and told them it was needed for my closing.
    I received my copy almost ONE MONTH later than requested, and they
    hadn't even sent the copy out til 11/09.  Also found a note written 
    by the rep I spoke to that said "Needs by 10/24".  Then they wanted
    to charge me $1 for the service!!!   If it weren't for the payroll
    deductions...........

    Hmmm... I just got 3 cancelled checks for $1 each.  I received them
    within 3 or 4 days of my request.  On the form I had to fill out,
    I think there was something about older checks costing more (mine were
    about 3 months old).

    
    re: charge.
    
    I was able to get a copy of a cancelled check that I needed as a
    receipt without being charged. However, that was two years ago. 
    I didn't realize DCU changed the rules since then.

    Nisreen

To get back on the topic of this note, why would you need ALL of your
cancelled checks? In the 1,000's of checks that I've written I've
only needed maybe 1 or 2. The check book register keeps a carbon of the check.
When you need one you can ask them for it. I just called them. Its $1.
If the check is older than a year its $10. I'm sure the reason they 
dont send you all of them is the cost.

Here we go again on the service vs. $$$$ issue!

    $10? $%^&*())!  What happens if the IRS decides to audit your return
    from 2 years ago?  You could be broke getting all your check copies.
    Or does the "written request" exemption to this rule that was alluded
    to in any earlier note apply?
    
    I have no objection to check-truncation as long as I can get a copy
    in a reasonable time for a REASONABLE fee.
    
    Bob

Bob, would you mind calling them and asking them what would happen
in the situation that you described? That is a good one!

    Every Credit Union I've run into has always kept the drafts; I think it
    has something to do with their Federal charter.  Has anyone out there
    had a CU account where they did get drafts back?

    NOW (Negotiable Order Of Withdrawal) accounts are what Savings & Loans
    have instead of checking accounts -- only banks can offer checking
    (Savings Banks, BTW are really S&L's.  Confused?).  I've had NOW accounts 
    is 3 different states, and always got my drafts back with my statements.

    Another interesting aspect to all of this: when I was on a (NH) grand
    jury a couple of years ago, I found out that a copy of a check is not a
    legal document.  If you take someone to court for, say, forgery, you'll
    need the original to press your claim.  I wonder how quickly those are
    destroyed...

    Beverly

    re: .11
    
    I've just got the minimum $5.00 in some sort of account.  I don't
    use DCU for anything.  I don't even know how to call them.
    
    Bob

    re: .12
    
    Savings banks are not really savings and loans, they're yet another
    type of entity.  For example, many (all?) savings banks are insured
    by the FDIC, not the FSLIC.  I suppose the exact definition can
    vary from state to state.  
    
    It is unusual, but not unheard of, for a given area to have both
    savings banks and savings and loans.  When I was growing up in New
    York City, all we had were commercial banks and savings banks. 
    I never heard of the FSLIC until I moved away.
    
    The term "legal document" is pretty slippery.  I'm not even sure
    that there is such a formal concept.  I think the real question
    is how may a copy of a check be used as evidence.  I can easily
    believe that it isn't enough to bring a criminal conviction of forgery
    against someone, but at the same time is enough to show that a given
    bill has been paid.  It all depends on what you're trying to prove
    by exhibiting the copy, and what the particular rules of evidence
    are.
    
       Gary

    I use to like to sort my checks into those that I could
    use as proof for the IRS for certainly deductables..I have
    lost that option and its OK. It's also nice that the DCU
    can save a lot of $$$$$ by not mailing them back etc. but
    to charge for a copy of a check (maybe done 2 or 3 times 
    a year) when we have no other option stinks. You would
    think the money they saved on mailings etc. would off-set
    the cost of copying a thousand or so checks a year.
    
    With the ability to have direct deposits go to other
    banks now the DCU is less appealing but so bloody handy
    since there is one in the next building.
    
    Happy Holiday to all your noters !   Lloyd

    Re: .15
    
    If you use the style of check that leaves you with a copy, you can save
    that as evidence for the IRS during an audit.
    
    /Ed

A copy of the check only proves that you wrote such a check; not that
the other party received it or cashed it. Unfortunately, you can't
count on DCU's microfilm copies of your checks either as I found out
when a group of us tried to prove that someone had taken our money
(they couldn't make out his signature on the microfilmed copy of the
check). I now do most of my banking with Baybank which returns my
canceled checks. Does DCU's cost to return our canceled checks greatly
exceed the cost of making microfilm copies and storing them (or would
they have to do that anyway for their records)?

Chuck

    Re .17:         -< Baybank returns cancelled checks >-
    
    BayBank is a commercial bank.  It offers both regular checking and NOW
    (Negotiable Order for Withdrawl) accounts.  Once it has processed these
    instruments, it's free to return them to you.
    
    DCU is a credit union.  It does NOT offer checking accounts, despite
    the common misnomer.  DCU offers "Share Draft" accounts, which are
    closer to NOW accounts than they are to checking accounts, but aren't
    actually either.  Since DCU is NOT a bank, the drafts you sign are
    actually drawn on *DCU's* account (at a real bank).  As a result, DCU
    must keep the originals to reconcile ITS accounts.
    
    If you require cancelled checks, stick with your BayBank (or other
    commercial bank) checking account.  DCU does a reasonable imitation
    of banking services in many cases, but the fact that DCU is NOT a bank
    becomes evident every once in a while.  This is one of those cases.

    	Perhaps DCU's practices have changed, but in the past I believe
    	that copies of checks, needed to satisfy an IRS audit, were made
    	available without the service fee.
    
    	Alternatively, the copy of the check plus the statement showing a
    	check in that specific amount cleared, might be acceptable to a
    	IRS agent (presumes a very accomodating agent).  The only info not
    	substantiated would be PROOF of the payee. 

	RE -.1

	Your "carbonless" copy of the check and your statement is "NOT" 
	acceptable for either the MASS Dept of Revenue or the IRS.

	Last year I had a problem with the state 'misplacing' records of
	payments and W2's on my tax account. When my lawyer presented them with
	my copy of the check, the statement, and a not so clear microfilm
	copy of the cancelled check the state refused to accept the evidence
	stating a DOR regulation allowing them to refuse all but original
	documents. Their argument was, because they couldn't read the codes
	on all the cancellation they could not trace the check. As it turns
	out we had original documentation on the other payments and was able
	to demonstrate that their records were incorrect. They didn't press
	the case.

	My accountant has since advise me to send any payments to either
	the IRS or Ma DOR by a returnable check and by registered mail  and 
	to keep the cancelled check and reg receipt in a safe place for 
	10 years. Yes 10 years, The state has been known to ask for evidence
	back that far, They ask for 6 years from me. 

    re:        <<< Note 148.18 by ULTRA::KINDEL "Bill Kindel @ LTN1" >>>
    
  >  DCU is a credit union.  It does NOT offer checking accounts, despite
  >  the common misnomer.  DCU offers "Share Draft" accounts, which are
  >  closer to NOW accounts than they are to checking accounts, but aren't
  >  actually either.  Since DCU is NOT a bank, the drafts you sign are
  >  actually drawn on *DCU's* account (at a real bank).  As a result, DCU
  >  must keep the originals to reconcile ITS accounts.
   
    If that's true, why is Nashoba Credit Union (Groton, MA) able to 
    return sharedraft originals to its' members? 
    

    This is an official response by Mary Madden of the DCU. The portion of
    that response, dated 22-JAN-1991, that applies to this note topic is
    included below. See note 2.22 for more information.

    Your comments on this response should be posted here or directed to
    to DCU directly at Mary Madden's number (dtn) 223-6735 x207.

    Carl Leeber
******************************************************************************
         Response to 148.15 and 148.17

         DCU's sharedraft (checking) account allows members
         unlimited check-writing privileges and ATM access while
         paying a competitive interest rate on balances of $1,000
         or more.  Other than the cost for personal checks, there
         are no minimum balance, transaction, per check or
         maintenance fees associated with this account.

         Because of the significant cost of check sorting,
         handling and postage, our members directly benefit from
         a cost-savings if we truncate and microfilm sharedrafts
         rather than charge a monthly fee or require minimum
         account balances to cover the cost of returning checks
         -- as most other financial institutions do.  In fact, in
         a survey, many of our members said truncation was a
         benefit, since they no longer needed to maintain and
         store canceled checks themselves.

         We do, however, make personal check copies available to
         our members at their request.  Any member needing check
         copies for legal purposes, which includes IRS, may
         receive them free of charge.  Members requesting check
         copies for other reasons, may request them at a charge
         of $1.00 per item (cleared after June 1, 1987).  This
         $1.00 fee covers the cost of research time by DCU
         personnel and microfilming.

         If you have any additional questions, please contact
         Mary Madden at DTN/223-6735, ext. 207 or 508/493-6735,
         ext. 207.
******************************************************************************

    This is an official response by Mary Madden of the DCU. The portion of
    that response, dated 22-JAN-1991, that applies to this note topic is
    included below. See note 2.22 for more information.

    Your comments on this response should be posted here or directed to
    to DCU directly at Mary Madden's number (dtn) 223-6735 x207.

    Carl Leeber
******************************************************************************
         Response to 148.18

         Digital Credit Union is a recognized financial
         institution.  By having our own Routing and Transit
         number, we transmit to and receive funds directly from
         the Federal Reserve Bank.  In addition, DCU is federally
         insured by the National Credit Union Share Insurance
         Fund (NCUSIF).

         DCU would have to significantly increase its sharedraft
         account pricing structure to match every checking
         account feature and benefit offered by a commercial
         institution.

         As a member-owned financial organization, DCU management
         believes the additional benefits do not justify
         increased fees to our 52,000 sharedraft accountholders.

         If you have any additional questions, please contact
         Mary Madden at DTN/223-6735, ext. 207 or 508/493-6735,
         ext. 207.
******************************************************************************

    I have a joint checking account with Banc of Boston.  It requires no
    minimum, no service charges, I get bewteen 5-6% interest with no $1000
    minimum required, I get monthly statements, and the original cancelled
    checks back.  I get all this even without direct deposit.  I do have
    three CD's as part of the portfolio.  I moved the CD's from DCU to Banc
    of Boston, because I am geeting 8.50% interest on the one year CD's
    (deposits on each are between 5-10K. 
    
    This supports my position that the DCU is not a full service bank , nor
    was it originally intended to be a full service bank.  Remember DCU was
    established as a "Credit Union" and credit unions were established to
    help employees with "LOW INTEREST LOANS" and competitive savings
    interest rates. Not to be profitable and offer all kinds of fancy bank
    services.
    
    I believe that DCU needs to get back to Credit Union basics.
    
    Best Regards,
    
    Louis 

  When I first joined DCU 10 years ago and found they didn't return canceled
checks, I smelled trouble and made it a point to draw all checks on BayBank
unless I knew I would get an ironclad receipt from the payee. The recent re-
plies confirm that I did the right thing. It would be great if I could be re-
lieved of the need to keep canceled checks for 7 years (IRS guideline), but I
don't think there is a safe alternative. Note that DCU may have only 4 years
of checks on microfilm (this is unclear).
  Why doesn't DCU use higher quality equipment or do whatever it takes to en-
sure that ALL markings on copies of microfilmed canceled checks are readable?
I think this would still be far less costly than returning canceled checks.