Conference unifix::sailing

    Boat B committed a barging start and should have been protested if Boat
    A needed to alter course i.e. fall off to avoid a collision.  Baot A
    was in the right it appears.
    
    Brian

Not being a rules expert myself I would be inclined to believe also that A is 
in the right. BUt I wonder if proximity to the mark might have had any 
bearing on the applicable rules. Where its windy out and the boats are 
moving, could there have been an overlab before the 2 boat length area. 
Would such an overlap, if properly hailed, have given rights to boat B?? 

But my first reaction was to rule in favor of A.

Geoff

My initial reaction was in favour of A, but does it make any difference that the
contact between the boats would have occured after the start ?

The situation at the moment the gun went was boat A close hauled on Stbd, boat B
not quite so close hauled, very close to windward and slightly ahead.

Does this simply become a case of windward boat keep clear. A has no luffing
rights over B. A wants to sail close hauled, B wants to sail not quite so close.
I think provided A does not go above close hauled, then they have the right to
hold their course.

BTW, I was helming boat A !

    Once the gun went off, A could have gone as high as they wanted (even
    start to luff) to tap B and dsq them.  A is right in all occations.
    
    The reason is that barging should not happen.
    
    Only way this would not hold true is if the mark was a committee boat, which
    brings into force the need for room because of an obsticle. A regular
    mark is not an obsticle.
    
    

    This was at the start right?  A had luffing rights even if they were
    overtaking from leeward as long as there was an overlap.  No overlap, B
    can go down as far as they want as long as they stay out of everyone's
    way.  B has no rights to fall down onto A if there is an overlap.  The 
    two boat length circle applies to mark roundings, not the start.   At the 
    start, leeward boats can take windward boats up as long as their sails do 
    not luff.  You cannot go head to wind or past close hauled.  If A needed 
    to fall off to avoid a collision, then B can and should be protested for 
    making a bad move and fouling A.  There is nothing wrong with sticking it 
    at the line end as long as you can pull it off.  It sounds like B gambled 
    and did not execute the move correctly.  
    
    Brian

Hello again, rule gurus

Glad you came down on my side in that one, here is a new incident for you, which
happened this weekend in the UK Sigma 38 nationals.

Boat A and B are beating on Starboard towards a turning mark, which has to be
left to port. After the mark they will go onto a kite run, port pole. The tide
is running dead upwind.

Boat A is clear ahead at the two boat length circle and calls "no water" to B,
but, mainly because of the tide, and difficulty setting up the gybe, he leaves a
large gap between themselves and the bouy. B decides to go into the gap, bears
away onto a run, preparing to gybe. At this point, A also bears away and hits
B's stern with their bow. Minor damage occured and both boats protested.

At the moment of impact, both boats were on Starboard, running dead downwind,
and in a line.

The question is, I believe, at what point does the "water rounding a mark" rule
stop applying, and other rules ( i.e. Overtaking boat keeps clear ) take over. 
The manner of the impact made it clear that both boats had completed their
rounding manoeuvre.

The protest was not put to the test as boat B retired later with sail damage.

Any thoughts

Chris

    
      Are you saying that A hit B's stern? I take it B went low got to
    leeward of A before A went down and tagged B's stern. 
    
      How close to the mark was did this take place?

    I thought that the buoy room rule required a "seaman-like rounding". If
    the second boat was able to complete the rounding manouvre without
    interference, I'd say that the originally-leading boat (you, I suspect)
    has fouled, from behind, a boat on a run.
    
    ?
    
    Doug.

> Are you saying that A hit B's stern? I take it B went low got to
> leeward of A before A went down and tagged B's stern. 
  
Yes, exactly
  
>      How close to the mark was did this take place?

I would guess that A's stern was very close to the mark at the time that A's bow
hit B's stern, therefore B was about 1 boat length from the mark.

    To make the rul stick, A shoulda hit B's bow was he tried to duck and
    pray the rule held. The fact B made it through the slot between the
    mark and A showed there was room.  When B got below A he was still
    sailing for his mark. A ought to pay more attention at mark roundings.
    

    Sounds like boat A blew it by letting boat B in and then whacking them.
    A should have come up hard to the mark to close the door completely. 
    If B had any overlap at all, they could have hailed for room.     
    
    Brian 

    re .11
    
        That's the way it looks to this observer too.  I've seen many
    a managled chute set get a lead boat into trouble. Get the captain's
    eyes off the water and stuff like this happens though they seldom
    own up to it. 

Glad you all came down on my side again, I was on boat B, though not steering
this time. Going inside was NOT my idea !

Our discussion at the time centered around two points.

As both boats were fully bourn away at the moment of impact, they must have
finished the mark rounding, so the water at the mark rule ( 42 ?? ) no longer
applied.

As boat A's bow hit B's stern, Boat B was, at the moment immediatly before
impact, clear ahead of A, therefore A should have kept clear.

I think A tried to do what you suggested, and hit us to prove that there was
no water, but he didn't manage to get round quick enough. We retired later
due to sail damage, and didn't get to discuss this over a beer so we will never
know if their version of events was the same.

re .6
 
There is no 'overtaking boat keeps clear' rule as such when racing. If on 
opposite tacks, starboard has rights, port has to keep clear. It's true that 
on the same tack, you can't just hammer up somebody's transom.

Dave 

    If overtaking from leeward, you cannot force the windward boat up i.e.
    you must stay clear.  Then again, the windward boat cannot fall down on
    you once an overlap has been established or mast abeam or somesuch.  
    
    Brian

Not quite. Once a leeward overlap is established, it is the responsibility 
of the windward boat to keep clear, but the leeward boat is not allowed to
sail above a proper course and (if my memory serves me right) must initally 
give the windward boat oppotunity to keep clear.

Or does that last bit come from a different rule??

Dave