Conference unifix::sailing

I read the articles also.

In one respect, I am concerned.  I use paper charts.  I also have NEVER used an
ATM.  Heck of a thing for a computer engineer type to say.  However, just how 
cost effective is it to society to make the paper charts?  If there is a better 
way, perhaps technology wins out.  I certainly prefer my GPS to stop watch 
compass and lead.

On the flip side of the coin, and this is perhaps serious.  What about off
loading the paper chart buisiness for NOAA.  All of us have enough computer
power to load at least our region into a machine.  Generate custom and
"standard" NOAA charts.  As mentioned, I am seriously thinking about doing this,
simply because I have trouble buying the NOAA chart that I want when I want it.

Other entrepeneurs, preferrably with money,  feel free to call. ;).

Doug
dtn 592 4787

    Doug,
    
    The problem is not jsut that updated paper won't be available.
    Its how to locate those buoys  that are moved and renumbered if they
    haven't been charted anywhere. They won't be in anybody's database
    cause the areas need to be resurveyed. It's a multi-part problem
    in that some of the coast hasn't been surveyed this century.
    
    	They don't have the present charts in a database where the
    corrections in the notices to mariners can be easily applied and
    new charts or even electronic mudules created. there is about to
    become an increasing void in information at the database level
    that gets worse as the forseeable years go by. I think it's pretty
    scary and only going to get worse.
    
    Bill
    

As I recall, the government actually makes (or should make) a profit on 
printing charts. You can be sure that it doesn't cost $13.50 (or
whatever charts cost nowadays) to print one. Giving the printing rights
to private companies would increase, not decrease, the government
deficit. 

The expensive part of charts is the surveying and preparation of the 
chart itself. Some of our Canadian charts are based on surveys done in 
the 1850s. 

I must confess that we do not keep our charts updated or current -- too
time consuming and too expensive (we have about 100 NOAA paper charts).
Whenever we come across a relocated or new ATON, we correct our largest
scale chart. The annual Light List is a good way to tell if an ATON has
changed. 

All in all, I would like more frequent chart editions, but at the 
current prices I don't replace a chart until it is in tatters. But I 
might buy a ChartKit (though I think they're rather hard to use and 
read) annually just to have the latest information.

Alan

I agree Bill, that the update to the charts is important.  But, based on those
tow articles in Offshore and Coastal Cruising, I think the updates needed would
currently require NOAA some huge number of years to adress.  This of course is
based on their current budget.

As Alan mentioned, the Feds should be making a whopping profit off of the
charts.  Making a profit means nothing to a government.  A couple of years ago
Colorado shut down the weigh stations for the highways.  These guys made a ton
of money for the state.  Even the state admitted to that.  However, the state
felt that they were too expensive.  Go figure.   

I know that there are charts that I want to buy, out of date or not.  For
instance it took a year of looking to find the piloting chart for the south side
of the Cape.  Turns out NOAA did not have it on a print schedule for a long
time.  To make it even screwier, my cousin works for the Fed printing office in
WDC.  They have idle cycles because no agency has budget for printing.  In turn
the printing office shrinks from lack of business etc.

Now  let's explore my red herring on printing charts.  Take as given that all
you do is scan in the latest NOAA charts, no updates etc.  Now I go to Boat US
to buy a chart.  Not in stock.  But, they order from Sailing_notes inc.  We
print the chart as a one off on a photo quality color printer, and charge a
profitable amount for doing the work.  As an extra plus, perhaps we include the
latest lights list for that chart.

It is an attractive idea to me.  If I get rolling on it this fall (don't hold
your breath), I'll certainly let you know.  At the moment, I am simply getting
the willies prepping for my first real cruise (Maine this summer for a couple of
weeks).

Doug

    
    The budget issue exists because the gov't makes fair $$ from
    charts, but NOAA is NOT credited with the income.  It goes into
    the general fund.  Everything NOAA does is a government cost
    item and the accountants give NOAA no revenue.  So.....
    
    We went through this with aviation charts.  Its a really good
    example of how government is broken.  It took a lot of
    screaming and yelling to congresscritters and committees
    to convince them no NOT halt production of what aviators
    call World Aeronautical (WAC) Charts.
    
    Now the other side of going into business printing charts for
    public sale is the liability.  If you put something on a chart
    that is not in the government data base, and someone comes to
    grief, your lawyers can be busy for a long time.  In aviation,
    everyone uses the government data bases and holds the gov't
    liable.  Bt I've always wonder what their insurance premiums
    add up to.
    
    Anyway, NOAA's budget for the charts these days is dependent on
    how large a fuss your boating/flying/whatever organization can
    stir up.
    
    Best of luck.

    
    	I agree with the last- fear of litigation should concern you.
    However, I would like to buy some! So here's the scoop: print them up,
    but put the name of some greasy spoon on the Cape in the lower corner,
    and in big letters, NOT TO BE USED FOR NAVIGATION. If they get
    outdated, you give the rest to the aforementioned restaurant for
    placemats.
    
    	Hey, is that a coffee ring or a 
    
    	Gulf Stream Eddy
    

    It is interesting to note that Australia has taken the high ground in
    the debate on chart production and distribution. They have adopted the
    international standards on electronic chart storage and presentation.
    They have also funded a complete remapping of the entire coastline
    using state of the art airborne and satellite radar. 
    
    As far as I can determine none of the US chart distributers or the
    government have adopted the international standards, rather they are
    "letting the market decide" and we have another instance of
    incompatability and chaos with electronic chart instruments.  I find it
    interesting that the US government can't find the funds to maintain the
    paper charts on the one hand, and due to lack of standards can't move
    to electronic storage and distribution of chart data on the other.
    Meanwhile, Australia with a population that is 93% smaller than the US
    can fund a mapping exercise on a country that has nearly equilivent
    coastline.
    
    By the way, I did see a demonstration of the Australian electronic
    mapping system at last year's boat show in Sydney. It is far superior
    to anything that I have seen commercially available here in NOrth
    America.  Does anyone know if there are plans to adopt the
    international mapping standards here in the US? (I don't have the exact
    name of the standard handy. I can enter it later if anyone is
    interested).
    
    Regards,
    
    	Howard  

    
    I will hazard a guess that the answer is no.
    
    There are some vendors of aviation electronic charts that
    look really good.  NOAA or whomever is selling aviation charts
    databases to these folks and they are building them into
    their software.  The best that I have seen puts a color
    World Aeronautic chart up on your screen, then overlays the
    aviation electronic nav stuff, all as a moving map with
    input from your GPS, loran, or what-have-you.  Really, really
    nice situational info.  I understand that some folks are
    working on similar stuff for the marine market.
    
    What does it mean to standards?  My guess is that the U.S. Gov't
    will adopt the "folks are buying what we have so why change"
    attitude.  The market in the U.S. is large enough so they can
    ignore the rest of the world, and someone like you or I will
    write some software to convert their database format into
    the international format and maybe make a buck or two.  At
    least, that's what history suggests.
    
    As for the mapping stuff, they are currently taking new aerial
    photos of the U.S.  The current library was shot at 20 or 30,000'
    and they are redo-ing it all at 10,000'.  When they chew through
    all of the data, we'll hopefully have more up-to-date maps.
    Don't know what the schedule is for more sophisticated hardware.

I just got to ask, what is the sphysical size of a NOAA chart?  It looks like it
might be size "C" paper sheets.  

For that matter are there a series of standard paper sizes used for NOAA charts,
size B, double length B, legal, size C, size D etc, or does NOAA like the rest
of the government have their own sizes not related to anything else in the world.

Doug