Conference unifix::sailing

    You are correct in thinking that you needn't do ANYTHING to teak
    besides keep it clean. The wood has enough natural oils to keep it in
    good shape for decades. It will weather grey and stay that way.
    
    Gregg

    Only slightly more effort will keep it a bit more natural color and
    make it last a little longer.

    I apply a coat (sometimes 2) of Clear Wood Finish (a deck
    coating/preservative) every spring and it looks OK for most of the
    season. CWF is available at most hardware stores. If the teak is
    already completely grey, you should spend a little time to bring it
    back first (at least some wet sanding with a fungus killer like
    Teakbrite).

    In return for about 2-3 hours once a year the teak looks much better
    and should last longer.

    paul

      My father has just bought a [new] boat with a teak deck. Do you 
      recommend this Clear Wood Finish for the deck as well as for the 
      handrails and gunwales??
      
      If so, when should we apply it? Now, before the boat is sailed? At 
      the end of the first season? Or in 2 years time as the "newness" 
      wares off the boat?

Cheers, Chris

    CWF can be applied in two ways to produce two types of finish. One way
    leaves the wood with a "natural" look, the other way makes it appear to
    have a matte finish varnish. I can't remember which does what but the
    two ways are to rapidly putting coats on, the other way calls for
    letting each coat dry in between applications. The can (1 US gal) has
    the instructions.

    The captian of the Woods Hole Oceanographic Inst (WHOI) R/V Asterias
    (about 35 ft) uses 1-2 coats every spring and every fall. The wood
    looks excellent and does not grey, and the application is much easier
    than varnish and cheaper than special teak preservatives. For example,
    I only sand every 3 or so years.

    Using CWF is a compromise between the hardwork (and georgeous look) of
    varnish, and the no work (and pretty ugly) look of grey wood.
    Consequently it looks good, but it ain't varnish.

    You might try a DIR/TITLE=TEAK or VARNISH or WOOD or whatever, or look
    at the keywords. The subject of making teak look good is highly
    subjective, and the noters here have entered many an opinion on it!

    If you have any outdoor chairs/tables/etc give it a try before you go
    right to teak. There are many other teak preservative products that you
    may want to consider. I found out about CWF from a friend at WHOI and
    it works for me. It may not be good enough for you.

    If you do use it, watch out for drips and runs - it can leave a stain
    on fiberglass that takes a season to bleach out.    

    IMHO it works.

    paul

    Well, the teak I have is not varnished nor oiled. Over time (say the
    70+ years the boat has existed), the wood has stood up well. I merely
    keep it clean.
    
    The wood has degraded just enough to form a good non-slip surface. So
    if I had teak decks, I would do nothing but keep them clean. 
    
    Gregg

    I have a 26 year old  boat with some teak trim.  Last year I tried to
    one of the commercial teak cleaners which did more damage than good. 
    I cleaned and oiled the teak all season but was never very happy with
    the looks.  The real problem I have is the teak is weathered to the
    point where it is splintering.  My children had a few splinters from
    the trim last season, so I decided to sand it back to a good surface,
    and varnish.  I removed the trim and have been varnishing it in my 
    basement whenever the weather is warm enough to allow me to open the 
    windows and door.  The trim looks great now that I have 3 coats on it.
    I plan on having 7 coats on it before it goes in the water.
    
    A mask with a charcoal organic vapors cartridge is needed if you wish
    to work indoors, even with the windows open.  
    
    Does anyone else bother with varnishing?

    I have a CT42 Ctr. Cpt. Ketch with a lots of teak. I have always
    varnished. With sufficient coats to start the season and a coat or two
    half way through, it always looks great. I have teak decks and of
    course oil them. Lasts a month, maybe 6 weeks and then needs it again.
    
    Bottom line is that I think varnish is better then oil. Letting it all
    weather naturally is no way the same. Nothing like  nicely varnished
    wood. 

    But how do you get the teak really clean regardless of
    oiling/varnishing?  Last year, I used a teak cleaner, scrubbed, banged
    my knuckles a lot, a did a good job on the easy to reach areas - but a
    mediocre job on the hard to reach areas: the undersides of hand rails,
    the trim next to the hatch, etc.  I thought about trying to take off
    the handrails, but this looks like a lot of work.  Is it?
    
    Whether or not I let the teak gray, oil or varnish it... I want it all
    to start from a uniform appearance.  Any thoughts here?

re .8:

Taking off the handrails is a major project, but .... it gives you the 
opportunity to seal the holes through your deck with epoxy. We took our 
rails off last year and found more than one leaking mounting screw. 
Fortunately, there didn't seem to be any damage to the balsa core of the 
deck.

If you want to really clean the teak thoroughly, you more or less have 
to use the very harsh two-part cleaners. As I recall, the dirty exposed 
end grain required two or three applications. 

We epoxy coated our rails (several coats to fill the grain) followed by 
five coats of Epifanes varnish. Yuck, what a chore. But, Epifanes is 
durable and, wonder of wonders, can be applied with a good quality 
foam roller. Much faster than a brush and on our handrails and hatches 
you can't tell I used a roller.

See Note 1497 for varnishing. One final comment: Maybe in the 
pre-industrial world teak weathered a nice silver gray. But in 
Marblehead with the nearby coal-fired electric power plant and with 
other air pollution, teak left to weather turns gray black, especially 
where the particulates collect in the grain pores. Definitely not
pretty. 

Alan

    Do you have a brand name on the Clear Wood Finish that you use?  Or is
    Clear Wood Finish the brand?  I have looked in my local hardware store,
    but they don't know of it.  Would Grossman's or Somerville Lumber have
    it?
    
    Last season I tried using Borax on my teak.  Wet down the teak,
    sprinkle on some from right out of the box, and scrub with my deck
    brush (stiff nylon bristled).  It cleaned it pretty well to a dull
    golden brown, but left to the weather it turned grey/black in less than
    a week.  I think the powdered Borax works pretty well, but the teak
    needs some treatment to keep it from weathering.
    
    Jeff
    

    re .10

    I think the Clear Wood Finish is made by Wood or Woods or something
    like that. "Clear Wood Finish" is the name on the can (with CWF also in
    the design). I think it might only be available in Town & Paint stores.
    There's one in downtown marlboro, MA.

    good luck,

    (if you can't find any, i can lend you some. 1 gal lasts us a few
    years).

    paul

    
    	FWIW, I have a 78 Tartan 30 and the teak looks like new (especially
    the toe rail damaged by Bob and just replaced!). The 2 previous owners 
    used Semco Teak Sealer and I am following the tradition. Applied twice
    a year, spring and mid summer and its holds up well. Yeah Yeah, PS did
    a bit on Teak preservers and sealer and the like and rated the Semco as
    just so so but I have had very good luck with it. Comes in two flavors
    I believe, natural and a gold(ish) tint. I use the gold and find the
    tint appealing. I also use powder Boraxo before applying as a cleaner.
    
    

    Re: CWF and SEMCO: When sealers finally go, do they just fade out like
    oil or do they come off in strips like varnish?
    
    Bob

    
    	The Semco just fades to what looks like untreated teak. One other
    thing. The previous owner said he applied the Semco with a brush or a
    pad and then went over the wet sealer with 600 grit sandpaper.
    Supposed to coax it into penetrating more as well as getting rid of any
    nasty unwanted teak fibers that may be sticking up. I have not tried
    this. My patience only goes so far....

    The latest issue of Cruising World (mine came yesterday) has an article
    discussing the various options of caring for (cleaning and refinishing)
    teak. If anyone has a major interest and doesn't have access to the
    article, I could make a copy or two.
    
    Bill
    

    I also use Semco and it holds better than any I have tried.
    
    I apply it with a small piece of sponge.  It holds the Semco and drips
    a lot less and gets into awkward places.
    

    second that SEMCO vote.  Having tried every teak cleaner/oil... in the
    world, or so it seems, I tried SEMCO on the recommendation of several
    folks in my marina.  Bottom line is IT WORKS GREAT!
    
    I use a sponge brush, but think I'll try the "piece of sponge" to try
    holding down spatter.
    
    john
    

re: cleaning teak,

Brown's Yacht Yard here in Gloucester usually pressure-washes teak to 
clean it.  They feel they get similar results to using the harsh chemical 
methods, including damage to the wood as well as brightening it to a light 
golden color, but in much less time.

Depending on where you are, that might be an expedient option.  And it 
might not cost an arm and a leg if you negotiate price for an off-time.

John.

    Anyone have any opinions on Starbright teak sealer (it comes in light
    and dark) or Watco teak sealer? I have both at home and I have tried
    neither.
    
    -John

re .18: Pressure washers come in various pressures, from maybe 600 psi 
to 1500 psi or more. Do you have any idea what pressure Brown's uses? In 
a previous note, Rob Cleveland (as I recall) reported trying pressure
washing with good results. Local tool rental stores want about $60 per 
day for a 1500 psi washer. I was going to try one.

Alan

    Yes, Pressure washing has worked great in the past when I had it
    available at the local yacht club I belonged to. They had a little
    portable electrical unit that was about 2.5ft by 1 by 1ft. No idea on
    the pressure, but if size is anything, not much. You could put your
    hand 3-4 inches away from the nozzle to wash them off - not
    comfortably, but wouldn't rip your skin off either.
    
    This method was by far faster, easier and just as good as any I've done
    in the past. The next best chemical I used was a small amount (enough
    to cover the bottom of a 1 gal bucket) of good ol' Clorox bleach. Fill
    the buck 4/5 to the top, take your light nylon scrub brush and rubber
    gloves and have at it. The bleaching of the wood took it to a beautiful
    golden glow for all of 2-3 weeks until the industrial pollutants
    brought it back to grey/black.

    
    
    re:.14,
    
    using 600 grit paper and wet sanding, creates a fine dust, this
    acts a filler for the wood pores.
    
    re: .19,
    
    I have used Watco for a few years. Recently Minwax bought out 
    the Watco-Dennis Co., and for some reason it is not as good as
    it used to be. If your can is 2 or more yrs. old, then it is
    the original formula and it works fairly well.
    
    I have not found anything that will last a complete season.
    
    There are many reasons IMHO.
    
    Sun, Salt, Wear and abrasion. The teak on my boat that is not
    directly exposed to the sun and salt has held up very well,
    with 2 coats of polyurethane. That which is exposed has not
    done so well.
    Also i understand that Teak has an inherent "fungus" in it,
    and the sun and salt encourage the gray and black look.
    
    JIm.

    My one experience using a pressure washer involved the siding on my
    house. I found that great care had to be taken to maintain a consistent
    angle and distance so as to not chew up the wood. Wouldn't a pressure
    washer eat away the soft grain in teak?
    
    John

RE: .20,  

>>>  Pressure washers come in various pressures, from maybe 600 psi to 
>>>  1500 psi or more. Do you have any idea what pressure Brown's uses? 

Nope.  My guess would be nearer the high end, since production operations 
are generally impatient with messy tasks, and higher pressure would on the 
face of it be expected to do more work per drop.  BTW, I imagine the 
biggest difference between home and commercial units isn't pressure as 
much as it is flow rate at a certain pressure.  Obviously if one can fan 
the stream out to cover 6-8" instead of 2-3", it goes a lot faster.  BTW,
many yards add chemicals to the pressure wash for removing bottom growth;
these one would presumably not want included when cleaning topside teak. 

RE: .23, 

Teak isn't as soft as cedar house shingles, or probably even cedar 
clapboards.  As I mentioned before, Dave Zingg of Brown's said it does do
some damage, comparable to strong (read: effective) chemicals.  The idea
is just that if one is ready to resort to chemicals, for the sake of
safety, environment, and unforseen problems, it might be worth considering
a pressure wash as an alternative. 

J.

    Interesting reading!  I'll add my two cents worth because anyone who
    does teak will have their own opinion anyway.
    
    First, the treatment for "brightwork" or trim is usually different than
    for large areas like decking.  (I have both on my present boat). The
    deck should not have a buildup of much to reduce the non-skid
    properties of teak (which is why it's there!) Certainly not varnish!. 
    My best advice is to keep the decks cleaned regularly with washing soda
    or equivalent and let it naturally gray.  I'll comment on "brightwork"
    below.
    
    1.  SEMCO - there are three colors available and the ones with pigments
    will build up unevenly over the years.  I've used it in the past but
    now have something better (more later).  It always required two or
    three coates per year to look good and I'm lazy.
    
    2.  POWER WASHING - I've used it on old badly worn teak where the grain
    was already uneven and it worked well to get off the dirt but still
    made the differences between the soft and hard grains more noticible. 
    If you use it for decks, it's not as bad as for brightwork.  After
    doing the brightwork, it should be sanded to smooth the grain then
    washed with water to get rid of the sand dust and raise the grain
    before applying any other oil, sealer, etc.
    
    3.  CETOL - This is the new "hot" non-boat product that is catching on
    for brightwork here in Annapolis.   CETOL (made by SIIKINS - I think
    spelling is right) is a product made in Eurpoe for log homes and wood
    siding.  It is distributed in US by SIIKINS (in Minnisota?) I got it
    from an industrial fininshings supplier.  
    
    I put on three coats of CETOL (one natural, which is really golden, and
    two of Filter 7, the UV inhibitor) last May.  After being on the boat
    all season and being exposed all winter, it looks great!  Recommended
    treatment is to wash the surface, let dry for two days and apply one
    overcoat of Filter 7.  THAT'S it for 1 year!!!  It's having great
    success in the islands too.  (I saw a boat that had been down there for
    three years and was still looking great!)
    
    Advantages - It has lovely semigloss teak look (similar to varnish),
    doesn't peel or blister, holds up well with little maintenance (the
    local Hans Christian dealer uses it on all of his new boats).  It's
    less expensive than "marine" products.  Abouth $45/gal.
    
    Disadvantages - It is softer than varnish and will dent or rub off
    easier (but can be patched with a wipe coat or two)
    
    Everyone who I talked to before putting it on my boat was very pleased
    with it and had almost no negatives except those noted above.  
    
    Happy sailing

    re .25
    This product Cetol sounds almost too good to be true. I think looking
    to a comercial product as opposed to a marine one is probably a good
    idea. Can you tell me the number of the distributor for Sikkins. I've
    called a few places here in central Mass. and they are not familiar
    with the product.
    
    -John

    its not SIKKINS. Its the Dutch company SIKKENS.

    The latest issue of Practical Sailor reaches the same conclusion and
    has details on the product CETOL.  Everyone in Annapolis has been
    asking what I have on the boat because it looks so good after being out
    all winter.  I'm not sure the extra money for the "marine" version of
    CETOL is worth it.  The Practical Sailor article didn't mention the
    different CETOL products (HTL? and Filter 7). The Filter 7 product is a
    heavy UV inhibitor and is best for the top coats.  One coat per year of
    this after the first coats (2-3 of HTL? and 2-3 of Filter 7) is all
    that's needed.  Good luck and happy bright working!

I have been using All Guard for the last two years.  The manuf. claimes its a
polymer, won't chip or peal but it can be rubbed off occasionally.
I've used varnish and teak oils and this is the best I've used.
They have a cleaner which is easy to use and appears to be safe on gelocat.
The first year I put three coats on and one coat during the summer.  In the 
spring I will clean it and put on two coats.  It looks good and isn't much work.
Two or more coats can be put on in a day since it drys quick.
The cleaner 8 oz is about $8 and the oil is $16 plus shipping from Ohio unless
you see them at a boat show.  1-800-448-TEAK

The bottle of cleaner will last me 3 or 4 yrs.  The bottle of oil last me
1 to 2 yrs.

    I have adopted some ideas from this notesentry.
    
    My motorsailor has a large quantity of external teak to make it
    look like a wooden boat. Its a lot of work to keep it nice. My boat is
    not covered and remains in the water/use all year round. 
    
    I used on some parts of the boat epoxi/varnish, on others only varnish.
    When I applied the epoxi, I was very worried how to strip it again, in
    case it would not hold up. I have no problems in stripping varnish.
    I use gas-heated hot air and paint remover on difficult to get areas.
    But this is hardly possible with epoxi. I should not have worried.
    After 1 year in the tropics, the sun has nicely removed varnish and
    epoxi down to the bare wood ! When I left the boat for 2 month
    in the Canary Islands, most parts of the varnish was damaged. After
    the atlantic crossing, the damage was irreversable.
    
    Last summer, there was a small article in "Cruising World" about
    varnishing teak. I think, the writer is very near the "truth" and
    I started to implement his ideas. If I stay long enough in Digital,
    I will report here, how the outcome is:
    
    His "rules" :
    
    1) never ever sand finer then 240. 
    2) apply not less then 12-15 layers of varnish
    3) when the varnish starts to look really nice and shiny, its time to
       add another 3 layers (do not forgett sanding first )
       In the tropics every 3 month.
    
    I have now painted my bowsprit with 15 layers and will do the rest this
    summer.
    As soon as I move the boat again into the tropic, I will keep an eye
    on this repainting of every 3 month. The repainting is not much work
    compared to stripping down.
    
    Peter

    I would question 15 coats of any varnish. When you get that thick a
    film buildup it will crack because of mechanical stress from flexing,
    temp changes etc. Ive always believed that 3-4 coats is good, then sand
    off about 1 coat worth for every coat you add, keeping about a constant
    thickness.
    
    Im also convinced no film product- epoxy or varnish - will last on
    teak. The only suitable finsih for teak is oil. 

    Alan B,
    
    Some time ago you mentioned that you were experimenting with a
    laminating epoxy as a base for varnish on some weathered teak. Any
    findings or conclusions to report?
    
    By the way, I find that here in Sydney it is more common to see a
    varnish finish on the exterior teak than was the case in Seattle where
    oil was the accepted treatment.
    
    Cheers,
    
          Howard

    I've recently tried a not-so-new system for varnishing teak, and early
    indications are that it works quite well.  Admittedly, it hasn't (and
    won't) get heavy doses of solar UV, but the epoxy maker swears it will
    last very well indeed.  I did this last summer, and several hard knocks
    in places have dented but not lifted the varnish at all.
    
    Given that varnish's problem on teak is sticking to the oily substrate,
    and that epoxy's problem is relatively rapid breakdown from UV
    exposure, the W.H. Smith Company in California somewhere (they have an
    800 # if you want to call) has a solution.  
    
    The have a CEP product - clear penetrating epoxy.  When mixed, it is
    scarcely thicker than water, and it definitely soaks into teak.  I
    sanded my new (unbleached) teak with many coats laid on wet-over-wet,
    about as fast as I could cover the ~4 sf of rudder or centerboard area
    repeatedly.  The exposed edges got over 20 doses, and never built up.
    
    If using synthetic varnish, you let it cure a day or two and lay on the
    first varnish coat.  If natural spar varnish, let it fully cure a week,
    and then sand to give a bit of tooth to it and remove the blush, and
    varnish away.  The varnish clings tenaciously to the epoxy, and also
    protects it from UV.  Given how much epoxy disappeared into the
    surface, I am quite sure if the varnish/epoxy bond lasts, the varnish
    will *never* lift.  They claim the epoxy dissolves and bonds with the
    teak oil.
    
    This is a much thinner (less viscous) mix than any West or System 3
    I've ever seen or heard of.  W.H.Smith's CEP has no structural
    properties at all; it is only a base for adhering paint, varnish or
    other epoxies.  BTW, they also have a low temperature version, good
    down to 50 degrees or less, I recall. 
    
    Needless to say, it will not eliminate upkeep of the varnish, but at
    least it should stick on teak.
    
    John.  (four days left and counting)
    

    Clarification to previous reply:
    
    I sanded the teak with 150 grit.  I used a poly brush (several) to
    apply the CEP wet-over-wet.
    
    ;-),  J.

re .33 and .34:

The epoxy/varnish method used may vary with how weathered the teak is.
Our exterior teak is much weathered with deep grooves where the softer
wood has weathered more rapidly. I used System 3 epoxy to coat the teak
after very careful cleaning. I applied a coat of epoxy, allowed it to
cure, sanded the epoxy until reaching bare wood on high places, and
applied the next coat of epoxy. After many repetitions (two to perhaps 
five) of this laborious process, I finally had a smooth surface. Two
more coats of epoxy followed by three or four coats of Epifanes varnish
resulted in a beautiful surface. You really couldn't tell that the teak
had ten or eleven years of weathering with only an annual cleaning and
not much oiling. So far, except for dings, the epoxy/varnished 
weatherboards, handrails, hatches, and dorade box look about as good as
new after two New England summers. 

One caution: Some teak oils contain silicone. Getting either varnish or 
epoxy to adhere to the teak is virtually impossible until the silicone 
finally weathers away. I've had serious problems with epoxy/varnishing 
our hatches because of this. 

I suspect that epoxy/varnishing new wood (John's method sounds 
excellent) is much easier and likely will be more successful.

Alan

    about the 15 layers:
    
    when I started my preparation for my cruise in the Carribean, one of
    the jobs was to revarnish all exterior teak.
    I started with the flagpole. By accident, that small stick got many
    layers of varnish because I could not get it perfect. Now, after
    2 years, its the only exterior piece of teak, still good. 
    
    I will see this spring, how my 15 layers are doing. Usually 
    my varnishwork gets the first damage after the winter. 
    
    
    Peter

    I pulled my teak winch pads last weekend while putting in a new main
    sheet traveler (if your in the bowels of the boat, might as well..).
    Anyhow, when I was sanding the 6"dia x 1.5" thick pads before 
    revarnishing them, one split along the grain. These pads are only 2 
    years old. I epoxied it back together for now and it seems to be
    holding ok.
    
    Anyone else have such a problem?  The pads were bedded in rtv silicone
    on both sides, and the winches here still snug. The pads are only used
    in a compression environment, so there is no loads on them. 
    
    The teak adds a touch  of class, but if this is common, then I guess
    it's time to build my own out of epoxy...
    
       john

The pad might split if it wasn't flat when installed, or if the crack
was already beginning, or if there was any curvature to the coaming.
Thick pads are more likely to split than thinner ones. Using epoxy to
glue the pad back together should be satisfactory. As you point out, the 
loads are largely compression anyway.

Alan

PS I never use silicone to bed anything other than (lightly loaded) 
plastic. Silicone doesn't adhere well long term, leaves a residue that 
is virtually impossible to remove, and the silicone will cause terrible 
problems if you ever have to glue or paint anything it touched. I have 
found Sikaflex (231, 240, and 241) to be the best bedding compounds. 
They are the only ones I use now, and they clean up well with xynol.

    
    
    	Yep, I installed ~1"  pads last year so my winch handles would
    clear the lifelines. One had split by mid Aug. Still seems secure so I
    guess I'll wait and maybe do the expoxy fix-up next year. Too many
    things to do in the next few weeks without worrying about that!
    

    Maybe I ought to start making these things by horizonally slicing in half 
    or thirds, and epoxing them together again with the grains offset.
    Enough coats of varish, and nobody will know the difference.
    
    Just need to charge triple for thse "special marine" components... ;>)