Conference unifix::sailing

Personally, I'd spend the big bucks for an inboard diesel. The major advantages
are:

  o  resale value. Boats with atomic 4's are hard to sell. With outboard,
     it'll be even harder, especially on a 29' boat.

  o  inboard prop is less likely to come out of the water in heavy seas,
     because it's not so far aft.

  o  inboard is easier to repair at sea

  o  inboard is less vulnerable to the elements in heavy weather

  o  diesel fuel is safer than gas

  
I have a 11hp diesel in my CAL 29. This diesel has (barely) adequate power
for my boat (fin keel, 8000 lbs displacement).

--RS

Hmmmm, yes, a new diesel engine is expensive and is probably not a 
financially good idea for a boat as old as yours. Should you sell your 
boat in the foreseeable future, a diesel engine would no doubt make it 
easier to sell, but almost certainly wouldn't increase the value of the 
boat by anywhere near the cost of the engine. 

A new diesel engine should last 10 years or more (my expectation), and a 
properly rebuilt one should last several years. Our diesel was 
essentially rebuilt in 1985 and has since run some 750 hours with 
minimal problems. I would not be too reluctant to buy a used/rebuilt 
diesel from a reputable dealer, especially for an older boat I didn't 
intend to keep for many years.

Probably the simplest and possibly least costly approach for you is
either have your Atomic 4 rebuilt or to buy a rebuilt one. Redoing
engine beds and shaft alignment is more than a little work. Depending on 
what your gas tank is made from, you might need a new fuel tank for a 
diesel engine. If you do decide to get a diesel, be sure that there is 
room for it, including room to work on it. 

An outboard in a well? In my opinion, don't even think about it. First, 
it will reduce the value of your boat. Second, outboards tend to have 
corrosion problems. Third, and most importantly, when powering in
anything other than a flat calm, the propeller tends to cavitate and
come out of the water, making powering in any sea at all difficult to 
impossible. Fourth, (I think) their propellers are designed for high
speed powerboats and likely won't provide adequate thrust at low hull
speeds (due to cavitation). Fifth, they're generally less fuel efficient 
than inboards, which may or may not be an issue depending on the size of 
your fuel tank. I'd stay with an inboard, no question.

One more thought -- more powerful engines cost more. There is a tradeoff 
to be made in choosing a propeller. We (the builder actually) chose 
a propeller that gives us 5.7 knots at 1800 rpm in a calm sea using 0.5 
gallon per hour. This implies that the engine is producing about 8 hp 
(32', 12000 pound boat). With a different propeller, we could get more
speed, but at the cost of much higher fuel consumption. If you change
engines, you might need to change your propeller. 

And one more thought -- think about engine speed versus noise. At 1800 
rpm our engine is tolerably quiet (sleeping and talking are easy). At 
maximum throttle and speed (2400 rpm) the engine becomes an obnoxiously 
noisy monster. When we finally get another engine, low speed and quiet 
operation are priorities (assuming anyone is still building low speed 
engines).

    
    Hmm... smoke from my old magno-core-memory... I think a noter in
    this conference has a Columbia 29?? which has been all over this East
    Coast ??? which lives at Metropolitan YC in the summer ??
    
    I agree, forget the O/B, but from the design end- moving that lump of
    metal from down low to up aft will change her characteristics. And
    lower units WILL fizz to death (electrolysis) if left submerged, no
    matter how clever one is with zincs.
    
    30 hp? Seems plenty gutsy, all right. A comparable sized diesel will
    not perform like that. But, like Alan said, a propellor whiz will get
    the most out of what's available. In a river, the motor gets REAL
    important, one bashup will ruin your bank account worse than your day.
    But, hey, who wants to make Mr. Westerbeke  or Penta or whoever, any
    richer? And of course throwing more money at that hunk of iron will not
    make it any more reliable. 
    
    Were it me, and I wnted to cut my losses, I'd shop around for an exact
    replacement. This is figuring it's drop-innable; the rest of the system
    is OK. Otherwise, check that note in this conference about Hurricane
    Bob wrecks, and toss the cash at an inventive mechanic. I figure, if
    the rest of the people are repowering with diesel, the price of the gas
    engines is low.
    
    Where to look? Boatyards, I guess. You've got 4 months... get to it!
    
    Sidenote: O/B's for sailboats DO exist; long shaft, hi-torque prop, but
    only up to 16hp, I believe...
    
    Mr 2_cents&change

    I think that universal makes a drop-in replacement for the atomic 4. It
    is a diesel and uses the same motor mounts. Check with a Universal
    dealer.

    My last boat ( akittiwake 23) had a drop in outboard in a well. The
    prop was aft of the rudder and it steered quite well. Sharp turns in
    reverse necessitated turning the enginto the direction desired, as well
    as the rudder. In heavy seas or short but tall chop, the prop will
    cavitate. To increase my speed, I changed to a three blade prop for
    being able to motor into 25kt winds.
    
    This was not the best solution for a boat, but the only one I had
    available, based on design. I sure appreciate my desiel in my Alden 36.
    If I had a choice like you do, I'd definately put the engine back
    inside. If you are trying to save money and won't worry about the
    occasional snag and corrosion of an outboard, get a used one and only
    go out when the seas are reasonable.  You will change your sailing
    characteristics dragging the shaft through the water. I lost about 1kt
    of speed in mine.
    
    Good luck.
    Robert

    I would think that with all the destruction wrought by the 2 storms
    this year, you might be able to get a great deal on another engine.
    
    Gregg

    Jeff Gardiner has a Columbia 29' with I believe the original Atomic 4. 
    You may wish to speak to him.  I too would recommend going with an
    inboard and nix the outboard.  
    
    Brian

    My first boat was a Cal 28 with a well mounted outboard engine. While I
    installed an electric starter and cockpit controls to avoid fiddling
    with the outboard  in the well as I'm approaching a dock, I still felt
    that the disadvantage of not having propwash against the rudder to help
    in slow spped maneuvering was a significant handicap. I now own a CT42
    and I love the 62 horse Diesel. It has almost 1000 hours on it now and
    has given me zero problems. Just change the oil regularly along with
    filter and it will perform like a champ.
    Asto the size of engine. I read someime ago that a minimum of one and
    one half HP per 1000lb. displacement. For my current boat that would
    mean minimum of 45HP. The 62 HP is plenty to help me punch through
    headseas along with powering an engine driven compressor  for Reefer
    needs.

I have a Pearson 30 sloop with an Atomic 4. Boat and motor are 24 years old. The
first 19 years were in freash water. I kept the boat out of the water last year.
Two winters ago I was thinking about replacing the motor with the Atomic 4
deisel. However, at $6,000 (everything including labor) I decided to rebuild
the motor instead. Total cost $750. Engine now performs like a champ. I now
expect another 10 years from that iron sail.

Paul

    If nothing else, remember where you sail: Newburyport is a TOUGH harbor
    with a hefty current.  Scrap the outboard.  I hate outboards, I had one
    on a CAL-25 and I have one now in a Catalina.  And these are little
    boats.  I probably bagged the CAL as much as any reason because of my
    hatred of it's performance under an outboard.    
    
    Outboards are fine most of the time: once in awhile (usually a choppy
    sea) they give you neither thrust nor any control (try coming into a
    dock under rising seas).  In reverse gear, outboards are even more
    insane under difficult cirumstances.  Finally, outboards cause you to
    get into some contorted positions while motoring into
    docks/moorings/etc. - at a time when you need to survey the conditions
    the most: you either have your body hanging over the transom changing
    gears/adjusting speed or have your head buried in a cockpit well.  
    
    If I were you, I'd find a way to keep an inboard an inboard -- even if
    this means stealing from old people or selling drugs to children.
    
    Bob

    Newburyport = merrimac river = forget an outboard when coming
    thru the jettys in rough seas.  (it is one of the most dangerous
    inlets in the usa)
    
    The Atomic 4 is around 16hp at 2000rpm.   I'd get a rebuilt AT4
    and freshwater cool it.    The Columbia 29 probably does not
    warrent $6k of engine unless you keep it for many years.
    
    

    One IMPORTANT note if your going to repower with a Diesel. Many
    gasoline fuel tanks are galvanized. Diesel fuel dissolves zinc.
    Zinc in solution in your fuel will damage or destroy your engine.
    There are several ways to check for the presence of zinc in your
    tank but I would think any reputable shop should be able to test
    for you.

	A  Dieseling we will go...

    Thanks to  each of you for the inputs on gas vs diesel inboards.

    I guess i'm off to find a reliable yet cheap re-built, of an approx 

    18hp ilk.  What I didn't mention in my first note is that its a total

    re-fit from the prop foreward, I'm shure  whats there now was at one time

    used for mixing cement and is rather...tired ?

    So...slavage companies... the 2 or so rebuild houses mentioned...maybe

     Louie the Lugg's  Good Stuff Cheap/Beer n' Bait  Emporium.... 

    thanks again and good sailing !

    kg

    Re: .13
    
    You may want to call John Dickerson who runs Apponaug Harbor
    Marina in Warick, RI (401) 739-5005. John at one time was
    the authorized dealer for Universal. He has an abundance of
    Universal parts still in wrappers dating back 10 years.
    
    Last year I replaced my Yanmar 12 HP engine in my Hunter 30
    with a 20 HP rebuilt Universal purchased from John. The price
    was RIGHT! I also know what went wrong with the engine because
    I got the report from the machine shop that rebuilt it.
    
    When I was there last, John had several Universal 30's waiting
    for a buyer. Note, these engines are the older versions made by
    Kubota. They are heavy and develop their power at low RPM. For
    example, my engine is a 20 HP, 2 cylinders, weighs in at 365#.
    But, it has a maximum RPM of 2800. Most modern light weights 
    develop their maximum power at 3600 RPM. 
    
    My boat displaces over 10,000# and the 20 is more than adequate.
    I think you could easily get by with a 20 rather than going to
    the added weight of the 3 cylinder 30.
    
    In any case, good luck--
    
    Joe