Conference unifix::sailing

re .0:

Have you ever prepared a boat for offshore sailing and have you done 
much offshore sailing? If so, you know what an Atlantic crossing 
entails and my advice is superfluous and you need read no further. 
If not ....

Based on my experience preparing my boat for a trip to Bermuda, I am
very skeptical that a boat could be prepared properly for an Atlantic
crossing without some weeks or months of work and without access to a
fairly well-equipped workshop and lots of tools. The vast number of
large and small things that must be done add up to a tremendous amount
of very time-consuming work. My preparations for Bermuda probably
totalled many weeks of work done over several winters. And I would not
attempt an Atlantic crossing without considerable additional
preparation. I don't think it is realistic to expect to fly to Europe,
buy a boat, and sail it back within the time available to a vacationing
DEC employee (I assume that this is what you have in mind). In some ways
I think that the actual crossing is the easy part. Getting the boat
ready to do it in reasonable comfort and safety is the hard part. 

    Alan,
        If someone can afford to fly the Atlantic to Europe and buy a boat
    (They are a great deal more expensive here) one might assume that they
    could also afford to purchase the services of a yard to carry out the
    preparation work, n'est pas? You are right I believe that it would take
    considerable preparation, I have been reading in this conference Peter
    Maier's preparations for the ARC. The ARC is also one of my targets,
    currently we believe that a year of preparation is not
    unreasonable......
    
    Pete

Well, yard rates here in the US are around $40 per hour. The work I've 
done on our boat has been done over so many years it is really difficult 
to estimate how many hours have been spent doing just the essential work 
in preparing for offshore sailing (what I consider essential others 
might not). 500 hours is probably not an unreasonable estimate (and is 
also probably quite low). This is one of the major reasons we've haven't
seriously considered buying a larger boat even though we can now afford
to do so. I simply do not want to do all this work over again. 

Alan

I don't know how proficient you are, Alan, at boat work.  I do know that
everytime I've had to do something on the boat I used to own (things like
glassing parts of it, fixing problems with rigging, etc), I found that there
was a 2/1 speed ratio in the time it took me to do it, vs. how long somebody
who was a professional took to do it.  Now, I always  did the work myself, 
because (back then) my work was still cheaper than the professional, but
I would not be surprised if 500 hours of my work could be done by a professional
in a well equipped yard in under 300.  Your mileage may vary.

But even if we assume your 500 hours (and some people may even be willing to
live without things you consider essential), then at $40/hr it comes out to
$20K.  This means, assuming a 38' catamaran, about 15% of the cost new.  Not
really huge if this person can afford the  boat in the first place.  It's
even possible that the manufacturer could do a lot of the work before
the boat even leaves its original yard, saving lots of dough.

F.

    FGZ has a good point. If you know what you want done to the boat (and
    how much of the refit is actually modification to factory standards? a
    lot I'd bet), it would be much cheaper to have it done as the boat is 
    being built.
    
    Gregg

re .4 and .5:

Sorry, I mostly disagree. To be sure, I am not the world's fastest doer
of boat projects (I am too careful and too meticulous). But, my
experience is that the work I do is much better that the work done by
boatyards because I am careful and meticulous. The changes needed to
make a boat safe offshore are, in my opinion, are in large part not
changes to the basic boat. Rather, they are generally ADDITIONS to the
the basic boat (eg, storm shutters for the companionway, safety harness
attachments, etc). Every hour of labor to make these changes/additions
is an extra hour -- there is little or no saving involved. Worse, from a
cost viewpoint, these changes are custom changes, each needing careful
planning and time-consuming workmanship that cannot be amortized over a
production run. This also assumes that the basic workmanship and
construction of the boat is good enough for offshore sailing. In all too
many cases this is a rash assumption and the boat may need considerable
upgrading in its basic construction (eg, is all wiring proper bundled
and secured every 6 to 12 inches?). If you can afford to spend an extra
$20 000 or whatever on your boat, that's good. I'd rather do the work
myself for at least four reasons: I know it is done right, I know how
to maintain everything my boat, I have a larger bank account to support
my cruising, and I am not trusting my life to the (in)competence of 
anyone else. 

To expand the argument a bit: Certain things must be done to make a boat
safe offshore (ie, ensuring that the batteries stay in place if the boat
is knocked down). Certain other things must be done to make a boat
liveable and comfortable offshore. This second set of things tends to be
very personal. What is important to me may or may not be important to
you. It has been my experience that it takes considerable time living
aboard a boat in various conditions to learn what changes must be made.
We'd sailed our boat seven years before going to Bermuda. And the trip
to Bermuda revealed several serious shortcomings in liveability that
would have made a much longer trip (like crossing the Atlantic)
unpleasant. It is the combination of safety and comfort that is
labor-intensive to achieve. To quote a friend: "Any damn fool can be
miserable at sea". I prefer to be as comfortable as possible in what is
basically a very uncomfortable environment. 

To each his own opinions.

Alan

    Well, boat deliverers have zero time and money to make changes to a
    boat before they are delivered across oceans, and they seem to make it
    ok. 
    
    Though, I will admit that the comfort issue may not be a factor in
    their case. And also, to them, it is a job, to you it is a leisure
    activity, so levels of preparation may vary.
    
    Gregg

re .7:

I'd be extremely surprised if a responsible delivery crew agreed to 
deliver every boat they're asked to deliver, especially when the 
delivery involves offshore sailing. My understanding is that delivery
agreements usually include some days and possibly weeks for the crew to
prepare the boat and any necessary repairs and additional safety
equipment, etc, are paid for by the owner. Professional delivery folks
know the hazards they face and they are not fools who will risk their
lives unnecessarily for the meager pay they get. The delivery skipper I
used to know was very particular about which boats he would and would
not deliver -- the would list was fairly short. There have been a number
of horror stories in various sailing magazines over the years about
disastrous deliveries and ill-prepared boats sinking or suffering other
serious problems. 

Alan

    Alan et al.
    
    Last August my job in DIGITAL went away and before I found another
    within the organisation, I signed on with a few of the Delivery
    organisations within the UK. I hold a RYA/Department of Trade (Marine)
    Yachtmaster Offshore Certificate and thus am viewed as having a
    suitable qualification for delivery. I attended a couple of informal
    interviews, For Coastal delivery around the UK both delivery
    organisations I spoke to insisted on seeing a recent survey for non new
    boats (Non new one that hasn't been used for > a few months but it
    could still be new) They would then base the preparation time on this
    plus their own inspection. Inspection time was to be paid for at full
    rates plus expenses. For new boats ,they sent out a proforma
    questionaire to the supplier with about 80 or so points to be checked
    prior to their arrival (Owners responsibility to ensure form filled
    out) They would then turn up and go.
    
    For deliveries outside UK & Continental waters, similiar to above only
    preparation times seemed to average a week with a yard on tap to sort
    things out for new boats. For non new boats as for coastal deliveries.
    
    As it was I was fortunate to find another job within DIGITAL and did
    not have to take up what is a very hard life for relatively low pay.
    
    Pete

    I had a pilot friend of mine do this with a Prout 34' form UK... his
    prep time for a new boat was about 1 week. ( a lot of advanced planning
    and prep done in U.S. -- sourcing materials etc.)  He also had prout do
    some of the prep work.
    
    Bob

    A friend of mine is preparing a SWAN 48 to cross to the Med, this July.
    He planed 2 months for preparation and it is likley to take 3 months.
    
    There are many, many Systems to Check, Upgrade and Replace, including
    radar, autohelm, wiring, alternator, thru-hulls, wind vane, engine,
    life-raft, Radio's, etc, etc!
    
    You Definately want to do the work, or very closlEy supervise yard
    personnel.  DO NOT TRUST THEM TO DO THE WORK PROPERLY!   Even at the
    "best" yards.
    
    Frank

    re 0:

    Are you planning the crossing for fun or to save money ?

    If its for money,how much do you think it is going to cost you ?
    $ 10'000  or $ 20'000 or $ 30'000 or more ? 
    Material,charts,spare parts,insurance and loss of income ?

    I just finished the preparation for my crossing this winter and have now
    some data concerning the cost.Its very high.
    If you plan to cross to save money,have you made inquiries how much it 
    would cost to transport your new boat as cargo on a freighter ? Catamarans 
    are very easy to load as deck cargo.
    
    If you cross for fun,have you considered the problems by starting in
    the UK ? You have two choices: Crossing very high in the north or
    sailing down to the Canarien Islands.
    
    Crossing very high: brrr,very cold and windy and a short window of 
    departure dates.
    Crossing from the Canarien Islands: Its time consuming.You have
    to start during summer in the UK to make shure not to hit any early
    fall storm in the bight of Biscay.So you have to wait 2 month in
    the Canarian Islands.The cost for a 30 feet by 10 feet slip is
    $ 10 per day. 
    
    Peter

    
    
    From "Ocean passages of the world"  (NP 136)   Part II
    
    Introductionary remarks
    
    ...It must be stressed,however,that the routeing advice in this section
    was originally intended for large sailing vessels able to stand up to,
    and take advantage of,the heavy weather to be exspected on many of the
    passages.......
    
    
    9.04. English Channel to Canada and United States
    
    9.04.01. There are two principal routes,a Northern,and a Southern,and also a
    direct route.The Northern Route should,as a rule,only be taken in
    autumn,when free from ice.
    
    9.04.02. On the Northern Route,although heavy weather is frequently
    experienced,the winds are generally more favourable,and the currents
    from the Arctic assist in the latter part of the voyage.When clear of
    the British Isles stand W and cross the meridian of 30 W in about 55 N;
    then steer,according to destination,for the Strait of Belle Isle,for
    St.Johns,or for Canadian or United States ports........
    
    9.04.03. The Southern Route is the best route to be followed during the
    whole of the year except autumn........
    By this route,leaving the English Channel with a fair wind,steer a
    direct course as long as its lasts,and at least ensure sufficient
    westing to avoid the danger of being set into the Bay of Biscay.When the
    fair wind fails,take the Madeira route,and if the wind permits pass
    midway between that island and Archipelago dos Acores into the
    North-east Trade Wind,but if the wind does not vafour,the Trade Wind
    will usually be gained sooner by passing nearer to Madeira.In that
    neighbourhood,it is usually found in the summer season between 32 and
    31 N, in winter a degree or so farther S.....
    For New York or other United States ports,when well into the Trade Wind
    limits,run W,keeping S of 25 N until in about 65 W,then steeer NW for
    any United States port.......The Gulf Stream will have to be crossed in
    the latter part of this route.
    
    9.04.04. The Direct Route across the Atlantic,from the English Channel
    or New York,which is about 1000 miles shorter then the Southern
    Route,can seldom be taken on account of the prevailing W'ly winds, and
    of the North Atlantic Current and Gulf Stream combined,running contrary
    to the desired track......
    
    
    The Southern Route is the same as the Route from the Canarian Islands.
    (below 25 N following the Trade Winds)