| T.R | Title | User | Personal
Name | Date | Lines |
|---|
| 1664.1 | Out-of-water Tugs | MILKWY::WAGNER | | Sun Feb 10 1991 12:38 | 28 |
| You already know a lot about the boat and buying, it looks like. Of
course some racers get great care (I crewed for a guy who insisted the
thing look better after we got off... the racers cleaning up the beer
cans left by the cruisers... what a switch!) and some cruisers get
beat. Hmmm. One othr info source might be the class association,
especially if you may think of racing later... your little one will be
the right weight for foredeck crew in a few weeks ;*}.
So for towing- during the women's keelboat champs, I think it was, a
while back, there was QUITE the selection of tow vehicles. As long as
the hitch can take it (get the big, integral-not the bolt-on!) the S-10
should be fine for all but high speed chases in Denver.
One benefit with trailers for me was, I found rocks in Boston Harbor
and Hingham bay the old fashioned way, and could do my own service in
the parking lot, usually sanding & painting right before the race. The
limitation with the fixed keel will be making sure the `hook' is
available on either end of your trailering schedule. A few local, small
yards are leaving the business, and the ride gets longer until the
business improves. This is no real biggie in
Buzzard's/Cape/Plymouth/Boston/Marblehead, but I don't know either
way on lakes. Seeing the boats on `em, I assume this is a nonissue...?
BTW, is the trailer really under 2K new? Sounds reasonable. I
wholeheartedly suggest LOTS of galvy coating. And hosing, sanding and
recoating with Zinc spray, not just rustoleum. Don't forget what kinda
metal you're dealing with! I was unpleasantly surprised on Rte. 24...
but those stories deserve a Note of their own.
Anyway, good luck, let us know how it goes!
Scott.
|
| 1664.2 | another place to ask | MSCSSE::BERENS | Alan Berens | Mon Feb 11 1991 11:52 | 8 |
| re trailering:
The fellows over there in VICKI::BOATS (them powerboater guys) got
lotsa opinions and information about trailering. You might wanna ask
'em.
Alan
|
| 1664.3 | What to look for - No surveyor will know | ELWOOD::KEENAN | | Mon Feb 11 1991 11:52 | 87 |
| Hi Bob,
Being a J/24 owner, I cam help you out with a few things to look
for.
Deck: This is the #1 problem spot for J/24's. The deck hardware is poorly
caulked when the boats are built. Water gets into the balsa and plywood
core. Although balsa is very resistant to rot, the plywood reinforced
area under the stantion bases are not. Areas around the companionway
and winches are also trouble spots. Get yourself a plastic mallet and
thump the whole deck VERY thoroughly. If the seller doesn't like it - walk
away.
Main bulkhead: This is another rot problem. Water comes down through
the chainplates and enter the end grain of the main bulkhead. The aft
face of the bulkhead is gelcoated and resists inspection. But the
forward face is only painted. Probe with a sharp point all over and
give some mallet thumps too. The chainplate covers have been upgraded
to minimize this problem and everyone now recaulks these covers every
year. Ask the seller when was last time he caulked there.
Vermiculite: Most boats prior to '81 had their bilges filled with a
mixture of resin and vermiculite (small wood bits). Don't ask me why.
If the vermiculite content exceeds some magic amount (of which no one is
sure), it will absorb water, freeze up in the winter, and bust and your
cabin floor. Verm as it's called is easily recognized - it looks like
frozen oatmeal. The best way to inspect verm is to drill holes into it
and check for mush. Once again the seller will freak. But the holes are
in the bilge and easily refilled with resin. Maybe you can do this as
a last step before closing the sale. BTW, I have verm in my boat and
have no problems. A boat with verm will come cheaper but at some risk.
Bulkheads: Early boats had half bulkheads between the main cabin and the
lazeretts. This caused two problems. First, boats that turtle will
fill with water and sink (very quickly if the lazerette hatch is not
locked). Second, the stink from the outboard and fuel when stored in
the lazerette comes right into the main cabin. A J/24 cabin is slimy
enough without adding to it. Get a boat with full aft bulkheads.
Hatch and companionway: Older boats have poor ones. The forward hatch
doesn't seal well and the companionway deflects and makes
crunching noises when stepped on. Racing on a J/24 is like being in a
closet with 4 gorillas. The strong flush companionways on the new boats
really help the traffic flow. Of course, I have the old stuff.
Keel: A faired keel is a big plus. I'm not looking forward to doing
mine this summer. Of course, just because someone faired it, that
doesn't mean it's faired properly. The only way to really tell is with
templates.
Rudder: This one really gets me mad. The older boats were made with
rudders that are fatter than the minimum spec. All the boats had them.
It was discoved a min. spec. rudder is faster but shaving down the
old rudders made them too weak. So rather than change the spec to
discourage dangerous rudder shaving, the builder came up with a new
rudder layup that was thin and strong. Now all the old boats have to
buy new rudders at $600 each. Of course, I still have the old rudder.
Deck layout: This one depends on how serious you are about racing. A
J/24 is very sensitive to crew weight placement. Coordinating
movement to avoid traffic jams takes work and practice. A good deck
layout can help alot. The original factory deck layout stinks. I
have changed/moved almost all my running rigging. But first I
measured all the hot Newport boats in the dead of winter. There's
now a "standard" racing layout. It's good to get a boat layed out
like this.
Instruements: My boat came with four instruements mounted at the
forward edge of the cockpit. Not much good for racing. A mag compass
on the mast under the boom is best. Better yet is a Sailcomp digital
display compass on the mast. I have the old fashioned kind.
Speaders: There are three different spreader mount designs. I have
the oldest and worst design. Maintaining the proper sweep back angle
is hard. This is no big deal, you can retrofit the new design for
only another $200. Those numbers start to add up!
Trailer: If you plan to own the boat for a few years, it will pay
for itself. If you plan to race seriosly, you'll need the boat in a
convenient spot to repair all the damage.
Color: If you want to race seriously, get a white boat. You blend in
with the pack at the start.
So as not to discourage you - it's a great boat and I love it.
Paul
|
| 1664.4 | J24's are for Racing! | MEMORY::LAZGIN | | Tue Feb 12 1991 08:57 | 9 |
| Does the J24 fit your sailing needs?
It's primary purpose is racing. period. She is very light
displacement, wet (no cockpit combings), and not so comfortable in
the cockpit due to the traveler, winches, cleats etc.
Below deck is quite small for a 24.
Frank
|
| 1664.5 | more free advice | AKOCOA::DJOHNSTON | | Tue Feb 12 1991 11:39 | 26 |
| Re: -.1
Exactly! Have you ever sailed on either a J22 or J24? The only reason
to own a J24 is to race. The next question is at what level. If you
really only want to race, then the deck appearance should matter not a
bit. Sounds like you're a bit in the air.
As far as the comment that you'd want to "move up" soon from a J22 to a
J24, I'd seriously consider a J22 as a bigger boat in many ways than a
J24. I've sailed both, and the J22 wins in comfort, styling, usable
interior, ease of sailing well and ease of trailing. The J24 wins only
in the area of being a very challenging boat to sail to its full
potential and the level of competition available at all levels.
J24's are just plain hard to sail! That's what makes J24 sailors so
damn good. It is, however, a LOT of work. Ask Paul. He has made a
serious commitment with limited time and resources and I believe he
feels he could still be more comptetitive.
If you have made the decision to go with a J24, do all the things Paul
recommends and lean to the boats with the hard work done (keel, bottom,
deck layout, etc.) and do the cosmetic work yourself. Painting a deck
is no big deal. Fairing a keel is a VERY big deal. Plus, when you're
winning you'd be surprised how little a perfect deck starts to mean!
Dave
|
| 1664.6 | | ELWOOD::KEENAN | | Tue Feb 12 1991 17:13 | 31 |
| Bob,
One more word of advice. You mentioned an S-10 Blazer for towing.
Is this the small blazer, a mini-truck?
If so, this is not recomended for towing a J/24. Because it's not
really a truck, no offense intended. There was an article last year
in the class magazine about a small Blazer that become
unstable and went off the road while towing a single axle J/24.
Having a double axle trailer instead of a single axle helps stability.
So you have to factor that in.
Having said that, I towed my single axle J/24 for 40 miles with a
small Blazer last fall. My foredeck man owns the Blazer, he's an
excellent driver. He was able to do some "active damping" with the
steering to keep the rig on the road. I won't try it again unless
I'm desperate again. A big fat old cadillac or any car with a long
wheelbase is better than a short mini-truck.
About a J/24 being strictly a racer, this is true. But, I can go
day sailing with my two year old playing with toys down in the cabin.
(He also likes to pull the wiring out of the electrical panel) I've
camped on it for a few weekends. My brother takes it to Newport for
weekends with 3 buddies, they live it up and sleep on the boat. You
can't do that with a Soling.
The extreme hull flair tends to deflect the waves. It's not a dry boat.
But it's drier than a 22.5' Ensign with coamings and big teak seats.
Paul
|
| 1664.7 | Notes from the hunt... | ACTHUB::RYAN | | Tue Feb 12 1991 17:30 | 68 |
| The search for the holy grail continues...
Regarding the replies so far. I've raced in the past and I love
high-performance boats and probably I love the look of the J-24. I
agree that the cabin is pretty poor, but nevertheless, I like the J-24
because it is a sailing boat first, and a floating hotel second. When
I owned my CAL25, it was a decent sailing boat with a beautiful cabin -
but it was a lot of other things - namely with 5'10" headroom, it was a
boat out of proportion to its length and beam. In contrast, the J-22
and J-24 are (I think) perfectly proportioned to their respective size
--- which is why their cabin's are so tiny. I don't see myself as a
crusing sailor, but like the idea of the occassional weekend/week
cruise.
I may or may not race in the future - but like the idea of sailing
around the lake or bay as fast as possible. Racing boats have never
intimidated me (I still own a NACRA catamaran) and I guess are harder
to handle. I agree that the J-22 is probably the more logical day
sailer: simplier rig/sails, bigger cockpit, easier to trailer, etc.
The problem, is that the cabin is so small, that it is really nothing
more than a sail locker with a micro V-Berth. Nevertheless, for the
dollar, I've seen several clean J-22's for 8-10K (with trailer) that
make me think that I might be looking too far down the road (at the
J-24).
Meanwhile, I've got a pretty good idea on what's available in New
England and the number of used boats is much smaller than I thought.
The number of good/clean used boats is even smaller.
So far, I looked at boats in Falmouth ME, East Greenwhich RI,
Stonington CT, and Gilford, NH. Excluding J-22 in this discussion,
some of have been through brokers and some through individuals. The
best of this lot comes down to this:
1. 1978 J-24, unused for the last two seasons, sparingly used in the
past, imaculate hull/deck, original deck layout in perfect
condition, perfect spars, mediocre cabin, tan hull (strange).
This boat is a real museum piece. Probably still has vermiculate
in keel, no fairing, and no cracks/bulkhead problems. Asking 12K
might take 8K. No trailer.
2. 1978 J-24 (unseen) owned by a fanatical J owner who has done
everything imaginable: attended J classes, buys J videos, moved
the deck hardware accordingly, reconditioned the blue hull, has
new D&D sails from 89', new plastimos compasses, and is sending
me photographs that I asked for. This guy is really a trip.
He also gutted and rebuilt the interior including new bulkheads.
Asking 9K and will transport the boat.
3. 1984 J-24 in otherwise excellent condition but has three BIG
cracks on the deck. Two cracks are just before the sea hood near
the mast. The longest is 8" long and 1/8" thick. Coated with
silicon yet the owner's wife said "it must of just happened".
Right. This boat is the BIG gamble. They are asked 13.5K, and
will take a lot less, obviously. In every other way, the boat
is in excellent shape. Nortons Boatyard in RI. says the cracks
are "probably" not structurally a problem and could be fixed for
$600-1000. This boat, "fixed", could be had for under 10K I
think. Hull is white and deck is gray/white. Sails are 84 and 88
Ulmers.
So that's in the hunt so far. Any recommendations? How about #3? Is
that the diamond in the rough or something to steer away from? Can you
trust boatyard people?
Thanks...
Bob
|
| 1664.9 | | STEREO::HO | | Wed Feb 13 1991 18:22 | 33 |
| re .7
#3 tried to step his mast without a crane and lost it at the worst
possible time. You might call this to the owners attention and lower
your bid an appropriate amount.
If your passion can be restrained for a few months, how about attending
an early season J-24 regatta and casually mentioning that you want to buy
a boat. Chances are a few owners will ask for offers on the spot and
you won't have to seek out boats individually. They'll all be in one
place.
If you want a trailer, which you should, it's probably best to get a
boat that has one. I've seen few of them available by themselves.
Small Bronco/Blazers seem to be popular tow vehicles for them. If
there's a towing problem, it's often due to insufficient hitch weight
or the lack of a drop hitch in the case of 4-wheel drives.
The risk of owning a boat that can't be quickly sold seems to be
unacceptable. If that's is much of a problem as it appears, I'd stay
away from all three of your candidates. Instead, look for a boat that
no more than three years old that is cosmetically perfect. Forget
about keel fairing, deck layout, and even sails. A cruiser won't care
about those and a racer will re-do it all anyway. Go for a high hull
number and low mileage. And borrow a few more bucks to pay for it.
Then get rid of it after two seasons. You'll get some of your money
back. Beats getting none of it back and being stuck with a relic.
Above all else - * DON'T PAINT THE BOTTOM * Bottom paint, regardless
of quality or skill of application, lowers the value of a J about a
grand.
- gene
|
| 1664.10 | Questions upon questions... | ACTHUB::RYAN | | Wed Feb 13 1991 20:42 | 51 |
| Regarding #9 and bottom paint:
I'll be keeping the boat a Lake Winnipesaukee the first couple of years
(and then on to Portsmith, NH), and I would assume that bottom paint
wouldn't be much of an issue. EXCEPT... that I haven't looked at a
boat yet (in 9) that doesn't have bottom paint. This includes lake
boats. Once a boat has bottom paint - what can you do about it?
Sanding it off seems kind of lethal. The other interesting thing about
bottom paint is that the brokerage lists boats with various forms of
bottom paints - many which are now banned like Micron. These are
usually listed as an assett.
Which brings up a new question. Some of the Js I've looked at or have
listings for have been recently alwgripped - which seems an expensive
way to spruce up a hull for resale. In one case, the hull was red and
supposedly faded and repainted red. In another case the hull was purple
and painted dark blue. These boats painted are quite pretty but I'd
rather not mess with something that can get scratched. Does anyone
have any experience with (1) evils hidden under painted hulls, and (2)
durability of painted hulls?
One unseen boat (door #2) has a navy blue that the fanatical owner
called Pearson up for advice. Pearson told him and he supposedly did
sand the entire hull with 600 grit sandpaper and then he resealed the
gelcoat with some miracle wax that Pearson sold him. I'd just soon get
a white hull and avoid these high jinks, but does this sound
reasonable?
Regarding #6 and #9: towing is one of my least favorite activities and
this is with a catamaran. I have a V-6 S10 Blazer that is no rocket
ship on the highway. I called Triad yesterday and asked, can the S10
Blazer tow a 3,500 lb boat/trailer? He said, "no problem mon."
Actually he said, no problem if you are towing 2-3 hour distance and
don't want to go to Florida. He also said, that I only needed a single
axle trailer with surge brakes, a fancy tow hitch, and that's about it.
So I'm not sure what to believe. Some years ago, I towed a catamaran
across the country with an automatic Chevette and presto - no
transmission after the trip (not such as loss). Paul - you mention
that the J magazine has some horror stories about this and you have
some experience with just this. Should I forget trying to tow a J-24
with a Blazer, think about borrowing a real truck, have the J hauled up
to the lake, or perhaps ... reasoning backwards, investigate the J-22
as a reasonable towing boat?
Except for perusing the notes file, I'm taking a mental break for a
week and resume later on. This is both fun and exhausting. But it
could be worse: I could be shopping for a car or house....
Thanks to all...
Bob
|
| 1664.11 | | CHRCHL::GERMAIN | Improvise! Adapt! Overcome! | Thu Feb 14 1991 09:21 | 16 |
| RE: .0
It's good that you are taking a step back and regrouping.....
Take a deep breath.....
One thing I'm struck with is the notion that this is trying for
you....You'll never be in a better position - the boat market rots, and
you have the ability to buy one. Maybe a slight shift in your attitude
would make things more fun and less traumatic. Remember, people who
want to seel their boats are having a TOUGH time. This is a buyers
market. Sit back, relax. You don't have to buy one in the next hour.
Just a thought.
Gregg
|
| 1664.12 | A very complex daysailer | AKO539::KALINOWSKI | | Thu Feb 14 1991 18:46 | 28 |
| bob
I have a similar cat that logged 5,000 miles last year behind my
Cherokee. This included a 3000 mile run to Fla and some other spots.
For a boat of either the j22 or j24 size, the truck is small. A 3/4
ton van is ideal. A sport ulility has a short wheelbase, and soft
spring rates that just go bonkers when a loaded trailer starts to sway.
But the question that comes to mind is how often are you going to
tow? That J boat is no oday 17. If you are going to move it maybe twice
a year, go slow, get a transmission cooler if you have an automatic,
and you'll be fine. Towing is going to be the least of your hassles
(ie. I have helped mast a j22 on the water without a hoist around. Good
time!!). tuning the rig and all takes some time, so once the newness
wears out, you probably will be leaving it in the drink instead of your
driveway. The nice thing is to have the 4Wd to help get if up the ramp
as you will probably be getting the rear wheels wet when you pull it out.
Just make sure the trailer has one of those extendable tougnes.
Either is nice boat for racing, but personnally the lack of room
down below means the facilities (ie head) are about as robust as my
catamaran. The fun thing is to overtrim them in a blow with the hatches
secured. Once you roll them on their side (ie the water starts coming
into the cockpit) , it'll feel like your flying a hull on your old Nacra !
john
|
| 1664.13 | | 18463::KEENAN | | Fri Feb 15 1991 10:36 | 23 |
| Bob,
About hauling the boat: if your vehicle is rated for the proper
tongue weight, then you have to think about how far, how fast,
and what terrain.
A 3,500 lb J24 and trailer is much different from an equivalent
power boat and trailer. This is mainly because the center of mass is much
higher for the J/24. My guess is 5' off the ground. The wind forces are
also much higher. Small trucks don't have the mass, wheelbase, and
springs to go 50-60 mph for hours at a time over hilly terrain. I've
used small vehicles to go slowly across town with no problem.
If you're going to haul a J/24 from NY to NH, you should borrow a big
car or truck.
About bottom paint, I haven't heard about the values of painted boats
dropping. International sells a thinner/solvent that cuts through
the Micron 33 and CSC on my boat with ease. Epoxy paint is another
story, maybe this is what Gene referred to. Many drysailed boats in
Newport race with old bottom paint sanded to 600 grit.
Paul
|
| 1664.14 | Tote that hull, Lift that mast. | MILKWY::WAGNER | | Sat Feb 16 1991 11:31 | 32 |
|
I'd bet Gene is referring to trying to sell the boat back to a
racer. Bottom paint is not anything like epoxy or gelcoat; it has a job
to do, just like Black Flag spray is not Chanel #5 spray. The boat is a
known fine racer; this at least creates a market; albeit a competitive
one. It also has room for a Porta Pottie, which ALL marine heads are
gonna become if I read my legislative news correctly. Fine for
weekending- toss the bedroll down, it's clean and removable. And when
sailing (hey!) this boat zooms along kinda nice- `specially on lakes,
where you probably stay slightly dryer. It's enough of a slowdown going
from 2 to 1 hull, choosing a chunky cruiser may be a maximum bummout.
Towing- the tranny cooler is a great idea. With the old 8-12%
tongue weight rule-o-thumb, better double check the vehicle spex, and
when towing, toss all that you can on the boat to keep the truck light.
Another kinda cheap tip is those inflato- shocks. I put them on my F150
when I was planning on hauling some bricks to keep the headlights out
of the clouds, and they really made a difference when towing the
(3000lb) boat. Towing anything is not real pleasant, but planning can
make it easier to take. BTW, the axles and brakes are law-mandated.
Best check it out. The salesman won't have to pay the ticket. Of course
my brake system, supposedly good quality, rusted out the 3rd season.
Hmf. The $350 for mooring kept the trailer off the road, save for quick
repairs near the ramp.
Happy shopping-
was the Bayside show better than the one in town, anybody?
Oh, yeah, the J-schools are running- Vacation Justification!
Scott.
|
| 1664.15 | | STEREO::HO | | Mon Feb 18 1991 17:47 | 70 |
| re. the lack of bottom paint.
Who but a racer would by a J-24. To such a person, the best bottom is
the see-your-face gloss of polished gel coat. Anything else is slow,
and therefore worth less.
re. towing
The best vehicle for towing a boat is some one else's. Preferably one
belonging to a 17 yr old with a heavy foot who doesn't know what he's
getting into. If you're not going to tow regularly, peice of mind can
be had for the price of a tow by a commercial boatyard. But they won't
waste their big block chevy pickups on a J-24. They'll just send some kid
in an S-10. They likelihood of your boat getting there in one peice is
probably less than if you were to do it yourself.
There is a non trivial cost of setting up a car for towing that has to
be weighed against the $75/hr that a yard will charge. Figure the
following:
Class 3 hitch $90 (DIY installation)
Receiver and ball 30
Transmission cooler 50 (DIY)
wiring harness for lights 10
----
$ 180
Add to that the cost of air lift shocks ($80) or helper springs ($25),
installation for any of the above, and a transmission re-build and you
could be out more than a few bucks.
It is possible to tow anything with anything else. But you can't do
fast. Acceleration is slow, stopping is always exciting, and you get
intimate with the sound of your engine redlining. 45- 55 mph is good
towing speed. It'll be slower in the hills and faster on the flats but
don't expect to keep up with the fast lane.
Fishtailing is the most frequent towing bugaboo, and the most
avoidable. Too much weight on the trailer axle and not enough on the
tongue causes it. To correct, slide the boat closer to the towing
vehicle so more of its weight is borne by the rear axle. For a J-24,
about 200 lbs on the tongue should be enough. Two persons, neither of
them weaklings, should not be able to pick up the tongue without risk
of personal injury. Err on the heavy side.
The other problem is a rapid and disconcerting back and forth surging
when the brakes are applied. Caused by the tongue being lower or
higher than the horizontal. The trailer wants to lift or depress the
rear end of the towing vehicle and there's nothing to dampen this
except the rear shocks which aren't designed for it. This is where the
air lift shocks or helper springs are useful - level out the towing
vehicle. To level out the trailer, use a drop hitch. Put the drop
hitch in upside down if the towing vehicle is lower than the trailer.
Also make sure the hydraulic dampener in the trailer's master cylinder
is working.
Tires never get enough attention. Trailer tires are spec'd very
marginally. They're usually operating at 100+% of rated capacity. As
a minimum, inflate to the max rated pressure as noted on the sidewall.
If they start getting hot during the tow, add more air. And you can't
get those lug nuts too tight.
Once the hardware is squared away, you get to learn how to drive with a
30 ft appendage in back of your car. As soon as you've hitched up your
rig, find a busy street on hill and do a U-turn halfway up. This
exerecise is more helpful if there are expensive cars parked on both
sides of the street. Once you've done that, towing interstate will be
a piece of cake.
- gene
|
| 1664.16 | The hunt continues ... | ACTHUB::RYAN | | Mon Feb 18 1991 20:24 | 64 |
| The hunt resumes:
After taking a break from this obsession, I've found three boats (one
different that I listed before) that deserve attention for different
reasons. I've also lowered trailering as an immediate criteria and if
I can get a better boat for the money less the trailer - so be it.
I've learned that delivery to Lake Winnespeseauke is not such a
substantial expense from, say, Rhode Island - probably $250 plus
launching. I've also learned that "new" sails aren't always new. One
boat with an 88' jib/genoa are in mediocre condition. So my criteria
is centered around the condition of the hull, deck, and rigging.
#1 is an 82' J-24 with trailer and sails up the gizzo. The asking
price is $14.5 and it might go as low as 10.5K assuming that the owner
takes the bird-in-the-hand winter bid. This boat is in Burlington, VT
and I still need a surveyor in case I make a bid on this one. The
rig, running rigging, electronics and sails are all very good. Hull
and deck are white.
#2 is an 78' J-24 owned by a J fanatic (I described him before) who
rerigged the boat according to J-World classes. This boat has new
everything: sails, compasses, knot/log, DS, running rigging, windward
traveler, etc. The downside to this boat is it has a navy blue hull
(my favorite color) that will eventually fade even worse -- and --
holes in the deck were tracks, winches, etc. have been moved. It also
has the older J companionway hatches which can be replaced for $500.
This guy also gutted and rebuilt the interior - a curious thing to do
for a J boat. This boat is in Ossing, NY and the asking price is 9K.
The owner claims that he can deliver the boat. This guy is really
pretty interesting: he sends me almost dailey care packages containing
photos, rigging brocheres, Triad trailer brocheres, etcs. This boat
might be had for 8K which would leave room for a trailer and new
hatches.
#3 is an 84' J-24 that is immaculate except for three substantial
cracks that have been aggrevated by frost. Nortons Boatyard looked
over the damage and guessed at 600-1000$ in fixes. Nortons said it
probably wasn't "structural". A R.I. surveyor named Tony Knowles was
recommended by J-World, and he said - it could be very well be
"structural" and for me not to use a term like this. Knowles says that
any boat can be fixed for the right amount money, the problem is in
fixing a class boat that might not weight the same one fixed. He
suggested making the owner pay 1/2 the survey cost to see if I could
smoke out any problems. He also has a moisture meter for testing for
degree of balsa saturation and delamination. If I make an offer on this
boat, it would be subject to being fixed with the balance held in
escrow. This boat is in otherwise immaculate condition with 84 and 88
sails - that are ok - nothing great. The keel is not faired and the
deck layout is the original. The asking price is 13.5 and the purchase
price (including fixes) would be under 10K.
I wish I could be objective about all this. My head says the #2 is the
best boat since it would require no work. My heart says get #3 and you
have a newer boat for just a little more money. Whatever I do, I think
I'll make low offers on all a see where the boats shake out. Any
advice, especially on #3 and getting cracks fixed?
Anyone know any surveyors in Ossinging, NY (Hudson River north of the
Tappanzee bridge) or Burlington, VT.? In buying a boat with a used
trailer, does a surveyor also survey the trailer - especially the
bearings?
Bob
|
| 1664.17 | Listen to your head | AKOCOA::DJOHNSTON | | Tue Feb 19 1991 10:25 | 18 |
| Tony is a good surveyor. He just did the survey on the boat we just
acquired. Listen to him! The cracks may be easy to fix, but then you
might have too much weight up on deck where the layup is thicker than
spec or epoxy was needed. This will kill the resale to another serious
racer, eliminating about half your potential resale market!
I think you are worrying too much about cosmetics. Go with your head
and then repaint! The deck you can do yourself. Have the hull redone
professionally. Will cost under two grand. Build this into your total
price. The paint can even be put off for a while. the cracks can't.
I would also insist that I get a trailer. If not for anything else,
then for winter storage. Makes you a LOT less subject to the whims of
a boatyard when you can cart your vessel anywhere you want.
Good luck!
Dave
|
| 1664.18 | | ELWOOD::KEENAN | | Tue Feb 19 1991 13:38 | 15 |
| Re: Increased deck weight
J/24's are affected less by deck repair weight than they used to be.
This stems from the new (2 yrs old) weight rule. The min class weight
has been increased, all boats are weighted, and correcter weights
are added. The new min weight is such that nearly all boats need correcter
weights. The weights are placed forward of the mast and aft of the
cabin, so you can't reduce the pitching moment by striping the boat.
Repairing the deck will increase weight in the deck but also reduce the
corrector weights. The two changes will propably cancel each other. The
current NA champion pulled his boat from a junkyard and did entensive
deck repair. It didn't slow him down much.
Paul
|
| 1664.19 | more unsolicited advice | AKOCOA::DJOHNSTON | | Tue Feb 19 1991 18:28 | 16 |
| Paul, I didn't realize that was a factor. Certainly makes the deck
repair more reasonable.
However... I still don't get the feeling that the priorities have been
worked out. Do you want a racing boat that you will sometimes play on,
or a play boat that you will sometimes race? The difference is huge.
I'm not trying to be cute. Your decision will be affected by this.
If you want to primarily race, go with the boat that already has the
bottom job and the tricked out deck gear. The hell with looks. If you
want a family boat that you CAN race on occasion, and not against a lot
of other hot J's, go for the newer, cosmetically (sp?) better option.
If you want both for under ten grand, buy a J22.
Dave
|
| 1664.20 | No-Salt/Sodium Free | MAIL::MCLAUGHLIN | | Thu Feb 21 1991 11:26 | 23 |
| Having just recently purchased a used boat (1985 C&C 33), I have the
following advice: BID LOW! Its a buyers market and most sellers are
just getting the message. I found almost everyone asking too much.
After a summer of talking to brokers around the US, and asking them for
prices actual boats sold, did I discover things are selling for much
below asking.
Other comments, out here in the midwest we put these things on trailers
all the time. Here in St. Louis, we have Express 37s, J35s, and others
on quad axle trailers and take them to the Chicago/Mac race, among
others. Most of thes use 5th wheel pick-ups and usually with no
incident. (We did lose a J30 and van at 55 on the highway when an axle
broke in 1986). The message is, just checking the bearings is not
enough.
Lastly, having grown up on the East Coast and still chartering there a
couple times/year, I can tell you fresh water boats are better! I
never believed this before being here, but there just isn't the pitting
and rust and chalking on everything, to say nothing about the smell of
the salted bilge. I shopped for fresh water boats only (and leveraged
their price with salt water selling prices.
Good luck!
|
| 1664.21 | A low-ball offer | OFFPLS::RYAN | | Wed Feb 27 1991 14:49 | 37 |
| In case anyone is still interested...
I went to look at a J-24 in Vermont this weekend. This was, I thought,
THE BOAT. I thought it had everything and indeed it did - including
the worst wood work that I've ever seen and years of abuse. I'm not
sure why people varnish teak in the first place, but once they let it
go, it's a mess. So much for looking good on paper. This trip was also
complete with a screaming 10 month old who has just about enough car
trips to make me reconsider traveling to too many more N.E. locales.
Mostly, seeing subsequent boats made me feel better about the damaged
84' boat. So, I made a low-ball offer of 9K (from 13.5k) on the
damaged 84' and we agreed upon 9,500. The boat's being surveyed this
Friday by Tony Knowles and I'll know after Friday where to go with this
boat. Tillotson-Pearson will probably end up fixing it for about
$500-1000.
So now I have three new problems: finding a finance company that
finances amounts under 10K, finding a good insurance company, and
whether to buy a trailer. Regarding a finance company, I've only found
Forward Financial from Northboro, MA interested. Does anyone know
anyone else who can finance 7-8K?
Regarding insurance, I've contacted Essex and another outfit I can't
recall from Hampton, NH. Any suggestion in who to contact and what
kind of coverage? I'm suspicious of insurance companies in general.
And the trailer is still the big question mark. The local Chevrolet
dealer says that a V-6 with a 5-speed manual transmission should not be
used to tow anything over 2500 lbs. The Triad trailer and J-World
people say "no problem" for little trips. I really don't want to kill
the clutch or transmission for this. I'm guessing that the trailer is
out.
So that's it for now...
Bob
|
| 1664.22 | Mightly heavy for half a Catamaran | AKO539::KALINOWSKI | | Wed Feb 27 1991 17:44 | 10 |
| Bob
almost all the towing claims on SUV are done with automatics using
trannie coolers. An S10 has a light weight clutch. If you move it once
a year and REALLY took it easy, you may be ok. But forget about lots
of trailering with the 5 speed unless you really like clutch jobs on
4x4s (personal experience is that 4x4 clutches are worse cause you
can't just drop the trannie out the bottom).
john
|
| 1664.23 | Insurance | MEMORY::PARE | | Thu Feb 28 1991 07:40 | 9 |
| re: .21
Regarding insurance, I shopped around a bit when I bought my boat
in 88. Boat US gave me the cheapest rates with only the conditions that
I perfom a few of the recommendations of the surveyor. They also claim
to be the quickest and most efficient handlers of claims. I don't know
if they would be competitive on your boat but that's the way it worked
out for my old (1972) Sabre.
John
|
| 1664.24 | BOATS US | OFFPLS::RYAN | | Thu Feb 28 1991 15:13 | 3 |
| Regarding #.23 - do you know the location and/or phone # for BOATS US?
Bobf
|
| 1664.25 | | RTL::LINDQUIST | | Thu Feb 28 1991 15:50 | 3 |
| Boat/US Marine Insurance -- Info. & Quotations
800-283-2883
|
| 1664.26 | | ELWOOD::KEENAN | | Wed Mar 06 1991 11:00 | 19 |
| Bob,
If you're still looking, you're probably finding some boats where the
seller wants more money for a faired keel. Here's a quick way to find
out if the keel was faired properly.
A proper fairing job affects not only the contour of the keel but also
it's fore and aft position. A J/24 should have the keel as far forward
as the rules allow. Some boats have keels as much as 1 inch aft of the
forward limit. To fair such a keel properly you must machine off 1"
from the trailing edge and build up the forward edge to the max cord
length. A big job.
So take a tape measure with you on your next trip. Measure from the
bottom edge of the transom to the trailing edge of the keel. If the
length is close to the max of 118.9 inchs -> good fairing job. If the length
is close to the min of 117.95 inchs -> the fairing job isn't worth much.
Paul
|
| 1664.27 | Clean J-24s: An oxymoron? | ACTHUB::RYAN | | Wed Mar 06 1991 15:24 | 33 |
| Regarding #26, thanks for the information. I've wondered about what it
means when a listing states "faired keel".
I'm in a funny position: willing to buy but can't find anything that I
want (or that I can afford). There are a lot of older J-24s around in
various condition and a few late 80's boats - but very little in
between. I put an offer and had a survey on an 84' J-24. The surveyor
found out that the damage was due to factory defects and not some
trauma - but the cost to fix it was not the $500-1,000 that I could
handle - but more like $1-2K. I offered less for the boat and the
owner got all hot and offended. I came away feeling both disappointed
and relieved. A week later, I'm happy that I used my head and not my
heart.
I have learned one thing: J-24s are not as well built as their
reputation allows. Their hulls are wonderful ... but their decks and
bulkheads (at least before 1986) are only fair. In the boats I've
looked out, at least 50% have some deck cracking around the
chainplates. I'm not sure where J got this super reputation for quality
construction but I'm not sure its deserved.
I know that there's a boat out there somewhere that meets my criteria
but I'm not sure when and where it is. I'm starting to expand my
horizons a little bit (Long Island) and in boats (C&C). Until then, I'm
going to sit tight. I came home the other day and realized my NACRA
was in better shape (relative to a bigger boat) than any of the boats
I've seen. Maybe I have champagne tastes and a beer budget, but I
don't think I'm looking for unreasonable things: a clean racing boat
that I want to use as a fast day sailer/weekend cruiser.
And so it goes...
Bob
|
| 1664.28 | Yes! | AKOCOA::DJOHNSTON | | Thu Mar 07 1991 09:53 | 20 |
| Bob, I'm not so sure J boats has such a great reputation to begin with.
A buddy of mine took delivery of a new J 24 a couple of years ago and
after some measuring we determined that the deck was on crooked! The
whole darn thing was skewed to starboard. The keels are done by
Brunfield in Providence. A great place to visit. The relatively
primitive methods leave no doubt as to why any serious J racer needs to
fair his/her keel.
Another boat you may want to think about is the Impulse 26. Has a
cockpit console like an Etchells 22 and a big cockpit like the Sonar,
but is faster than the Sonar. Never caught on as a big one design and
therefore is available at pretty good prices.
Your experience confirms my views on J24's and J35's. There ain't no
bargains out there. You get what you pay for and no more. That's why
I've consistently questioned your choice of this class. Great boats
that will hold their value, but not an easy boat to get into with short
money.
Dave
|
| 1664.29 | Thank goodness I don't really care! | AKOCOA::DJOHNSTON | | Mon Mar 11 1991 11:07 | 64 |
| Thought I'd add a view from the "other" side. While our deal with the
Oceanus Institute was a clean trade and we no longer own Wildside, we
volunteered to try to sell it for them in this area in order to keep
One Tonners in the area. Oceanus is listing it with brokers at a
comensurately higher price than we can sell it for. We don't get
commissions! (damn)
So, with the goal of trying to generate interest for this fairly
specialized boat, I listed it in the Globe for a week. Here's what
happened:
First, the listing prices are outragious. A four line car ad costs
$28 per week. A two line boat ad costs $69 per week. Tony
Chamberlain always pontificates how boat owners are taken advantage of
by legislatures who view us as the idle rich to be soaked. Well, guess
what, Tony. Your paper is doing the same thing!
Three types of calls came in. An organization called the Multiple
Listing Service had six, yes six, reps call me to try to get me to list
it in their nationwide publication for the low one time fee of $190.
they were sure they could move this merchandise. The sales people
sound like they operate out of a boiler room and they admit to being
paid on commision per ad. Needless to say I declined politely to the
first caller and more rudely as the attempts added up.
Next came the brokers. I told them all that Oceanus had it listed and
we were trying to sell it without the brokers fee. A number of them
insultingly told me how amateurish it was to sell on your own and how
valuable their services were. Click.
The most entertaining calls have come from interested parties. All
knew the boat and couldn't believe how low the asking price was. Most
were concerned that there was something wrong with the boat. No,
that's just a realistic price. Something most sellers haven't come to
grips with. I then get an earful about their current boat's good and
bad points. Every one of them has a wife who hates racing. Two have
called me just to get my opinion of a Frers 41 that is for sale at an
outrageous price. I tell them it's their money to waste. One guy
wanted to trade his boat. Another wanted to gloat on the fantastic
trade in a dealer was offering for his Frers 30 for a new Frers 38.
When I pointed out the the difference between this fantastic trade in
and the selling price of the new boat was substantially more than we
were asking for our boat in total, he still focused in on the great
trade in offer. Not very bright.
In summary, I'm VERY glad not to be all that concerned about having to
sell a boat right now. For all you buyers out there, a couple of
pointers. Please don't bug sellers unless you are at least potentially
able to do a deal. One guy told me after keeping me on the phone for a
half hour "gee, I've always admired your boat but my wife would kill me
if I got a racing boat". Thanks for the call, bonehead. Also, and
most importantly, you the buyer hold all the cards right now. I mean
ALL THE CARDS. Do not let any broker pressure you. Do not get
emotionally tied up in any one boat, letting it cloud your haggling
skills. Make ridiculous offers. There are a pant load of boats
waiting for new owners out there. Finally, because there are so many
available, I repeat my most common advice. Focus and decide what you
want to do with your future boat and narrow your search. Be realistic.
If you are mainly going to daysail, don't pay for a beautiful cruising
interior. That sort of thing.
Have fun.
Dave
|
| 1664.30 | Another 2� worth... | MILKWY::WAGNER | | Wed Mar 13 1991 12:36 | 13 |
|
You said your choice window was open? (Can O' Worms!)
You may consider the Evelyn 26. Pretty light, pretty quick.
LOTS more room below than the J24, but still a reasonable cockpit.
There are a few around, both to jump on as crew (best demo) or buy.
Untrailerable, I'd bet; Beam>8'.
Or, there's a zillion others...! Keep chanting the mantra of Zippy:
Are we having fun yet?
Scott.
|
| 1664.31 | E 26 | AKOCOA::DJOHNSTON | | Wed Mar 13 1991 12:51 | 9 |
| Right! There is an Evelyn 26 for sale at the yard in Greenwich. It is
a horrible orange color, but available CHEAP! My current partner raced
on one years ago (the first "Loose Goose" for those of you in
Marblehead) and still has a soft place in his heart for them. Claims
that Johnstone stole the basic idea of the J24 from the Evelyn 26 and
that if Bob Evelyn had been the marketing genius it would be E boats,
not J boats that are so dominant
Dave
|
| 1664.32 | Niche Boat | STEREO::HO | | Wed Mar 13 1991 13:53 | 24 |
| Re E-26
An interesting boat for the right person. But you have to be the
right person and find it veeery interesting because you'll probably
have it for a long time, whether or not you want to.
There are two versions: the high tech flush deck and the cabin top.
The flush deck comes with gizmos galore - runners, the infamous Evelyn
swing tracks (AKA crew trippers), and no less than 7 winches. Decent
room inside although low and dark (no windows). The cabin top version
dispenses with most of the gizmos and has standing (for me) headroom.
But the cabin top doesn't leave much room to move around in on deck.
Both rate about the same as a J24.
These are niche boats and appeal mostly to low budget PHRF'ers. Those
who have owned them report that they are not easy to sell. But looking
at what they want for a Soverel 27 or an S2 7.9, you could do as well
for less than 1/3 the cost. Just don't expect to bail out in a hurry.
If you've never seen one of these before, a broker described Loose
Goose I as "a teacup with a soda straw". They're almost as wide as
they are long.
- gene
|
| 1664.33 | The long goodbye ... | OFFPLS::RYAN | | Thu Mar 14 1991 10:54 | 39 |
| Somewhere in this boat hunting expedition, I decided to go against my
earlier instincts and buy a boat that I could love and would resell
fairly easily. I guess this really is "defensive boat buying". The Js
seemed like a good choice because one way or another they will resell
once the price gets down to a reasonable level. Even the most beat up
older Js sell once the price moves down. The same is mass production
boats like Catalinas.
In talking to brokers anxious to move old inventory, they always
initially push a wide variety of older PHRF racers that were hot in
their era but aren't anymore. I'd certainly consider these boats once
their price gets down to a reasonable level. For example, A 1985
"FUN-23" in Tampa/with trailer, would sell for $6000. Having never
seen the boat, I'm less than thrilled to make a trip down to check it
out. So while $6000 isn't the $15,000 that the same year J-24 would go
for - it still is $6000 that I might have to eat in a couple of years.
And yet, $6,000 doesn't seem like a huge sum of money to spend to enjoy
oneself. But these "FUN" owner have a funny attitude about their boats:
very strong opinions for-and-against the boat's features and
construction.
Some boats are being offered at shockingly low amounts (CAL, Santana,
etc.) and other boats (C&C, etc.) still command quite a bit. Sometimes
the difference between two boats is not as much in the quality of
construction as in the perception of the boat's worth. I'm seeing
older C&C 25-26s for about the same price I was willing to spend for a
J. Even for the right price I still have to love the boat...
I'm somewhere at the point where I'm going to back down completely for
the season, creep up substantially and buy an 86-88 J for a lot more
than was my goal, or wait until summer comes/passes and see what comes
open. In this approach, my initial euphoria has been replaced with
patience and also a little sadness. I know that it is only a "thing"
but I love boats in and of themselves.
And so it goes...
Bob
|
| 1664.34 | Don't give up! | AKOCOA::DJOHNSTON | | Thu Mar 14 1991 14:01 | 27 |
| Bob, I'm sorry to see you so depressed about shopping for a boat. I'm
sure you can find your J24 at the price you want if you don't give up.
Since you seem to have made up your mind that you want a boat you can
love, all you have to be flexible on is the amount you want to spend.
Keep this in mind, though. If you buy a $15k J24 and decide to sell in
a few years, do you really think it will lose only 20% of its value
($3k)? If you buy a $6k boat, it can lose up to 50% of its value and
still lose only $3k. And you're having as much fun with a fraction of
the investment. I see you exactly where my partner and I are. We
would love to play the IMS game in the latest designs. We can't.
Plain and simple. So we intentionally go against the market grain and
pick up boats the general public would say are "unsellable". We pay
much less for a 40 footer than a J35 costs of the same vintage and go
out and beat the snot out of the J's (sorry Dean ;^). Sure, we won't
be able to keep the same value retention that a J does, but we have
much less into it to begin with. And there are lots of other guys out
there in our same boat, as it were.
I'm sorry, but it sounds like you're in a funk because you want a boat
that's cheap to buy and retains high value when you sell. And wins
your heart over all at the same time. Either you want a J24 and will
have to pay unreasonably for it, or you can have a blast raping and
pillaging the used boat market until some poor soul BEGS you to take
his albatross that you see as a swan.
Dave
|
| 1664.35 | related experience | MARINR::DARROW | The wind is music to my ears | Thu Mar 14 1991 14:58 | 38 |
| Just read through this note. (thankfully been vry bzy with work, no notes
for last month).
North Shore Marine Surveyor: Ocean Marin Specialties
Dan Rutherford
Beverly MA 01915
508 922-1916
He was assigned by BOAT US Insurance last summer when our mast took a
swim during a squall. We showed up at dock as I was bringing the boat
in from the mooring. I was impressed with his thouroughness and
HELPFULNESS!. Help my son and I derrigged the boat and sort out the
damage and then made a careful inspection of the boat. Has even offered
to come aboard after launching this season to check out our rigging, etc.
Insurance: Not Metropolitan, they do a fairly good job on the auto
and home, but got static when insuring a 17 foot SAIL BOAT in regards my
WIFE'S two year old and only speeding ticket. (42 in a 30) Now if we had
a 300hp wave smasher, I could under stand.
Yes to BOAT US. Very competitive rates and excellent
service.
TOWING: We have an ODay 222, 2250 lbs, +200lbs of boat gear +300lbs of
camping gear, +400lbs trailer, = 3150 lbs +-. Our 1989 Nissan
Pathfinder.
3 liter v6, automatic does a great job getting back and forth to the
mooring several times a year, but when we haul up to Somes Sound Maine
for 2 weeks vactation, it becomes a long drive. The trailer is a single
axle, really should be double! But the boat was a great buy and Mr
Emotion over ruled Mr Sense. Now, my son's 6liter deisel, full sized, GMC
short bed pickup is a proper tow vehicle, but his seats dont recline for
the comfort of my wife's back and without the boat behind, it rides like
a truck!
Good luck with the patience Bob.
Fred
|
| 1664.36 | Looking for the book value? | OFFPLS::RYAN | | Mon Apr 08 1991 21:07 | 39 |
| Fake right, run left:
After looking at still more beat up J's, this strange, practical streak
hit me one day when I was playing with my one year old son. So, on a
completely different tack, I decided to look at a 1988 Catalina 22 with
a wing keel that was in absolutely immaculate condition. In my heart,
I still wanted the J-24, but I knew in my head that this would be the
smarter alternative: better cruiser for a family, more trailerable
(deck step mast and lighter load), newer and therefore better for
eventual resale, and so on. My wife also loved the boat which was
important.
Needless to say, this boat in the condition described, didn't have
nearly the negotiating room that the older beat up J's did - so I
jumped up to $11k, down from the 12.9k asking. In a way this seems
kind of outrageous when you can buy a much larger/older 24-26 boat for
the same range, so I called a Catalina dealer in Shrewsbury,MA. and
asked them what this boat was "worth". "Worth" is a strange concept
here: Gauch Brothers Marina says the boat is worth 12.5k. Forward
Financial, the lender, says the boat is only worth 9k and therefore
will only lend based upon this number. Forward Financial claims that
the "book" on the boat is based upon the terrible used boat market in
New England.
So my question today, is how much is this thing worth? I don't want to
buy something, no matter how clean it is, if I'm paying a premium in a
bad boat market. I also don't want the opposite end of the spectrum: a
boat that needs a lot of work. And, I'm not sure I trust Forward
Financial either. Does anyone have the so called "book", and if so can
they look up these specs:
88 Catalina 22/wing keel with deluxe interior, pop-top
88 Trail Rite trailer
88 5hp Honda o/b
Thanks,
Bob
|
| 1664.37 | Market Value = Transaction Value | BLAKLY::RADKE_HO | | Tue Apr 09 1991 14:48 | 24 |
| If your state charges a tax based on value, you might check with
them to see what the actual sales prices on similar boats have been
over the last six months or so. I would not trust values stated
in any of the "books" that are published, unless of course they
were highly favorable to me as a buyer!
As a seller of a sail boat several years ago I know that the "worth"
of the boat declined in my mind the longer that it was for sale.
The worth of a particular boat can be measured in terms other than
financial, especially when there are NO investment guarentees with
this type of purchase. The "market value" of a boat can be ascertained
via guidelines (price books, recent sales, etc.) to within +/- ten
to fifteen percent or so, but the "true market" value on that
particular boat will only be determined between the buyer and seller.
Sometimes it pays to make a low offer and then wait. When we purchased
a used Catalina 27 in 1985 it took six months from when we first
contacted the seller until he was ready to accept our offer. In
the mean time his wife became pregnant with their third child and
she was really motivated to get rid of the boat.
Howard
|