Conference unifix::sailing

    We installed a pretty good Pioneer car stereo in the nav station area
    down below.  we have two sets of speakers, one set below and one
    installed into the back of the cockpit topside.  Only the outside set
    are water resistant.  Specially made by Pioneer for this purpose.  The
    balance is provided by the fade control on the stereo unit itself. 
    Just like varying the balance between the front and rear speakers in
    your car.  That way you can have interior sound, exterior sound or
    both.  
    
    The stereo unit will last a good long time if your cabin is dry.  I
    would not recommend the marine units if you don't need a water
    resistant one.  Too expensive.  It's an easy job and will add
    immeasurably to your sailing enjoyment.  Nothing like sipping a beer,
    listening to reggae and cruising!
    
    Dave

re .1:

>>> Nothing like sipping a beer, listening to reggae and cruising!
    
Oh? This is definitely a matter of opinion. For me nothing like a good
dark ale, Celtic folk music or perhaps some early medieval dances, and
cruising. 

Otherwise, I agree with Dave. We have a high end Proton automobile
tuner/cassette, a Crutchfield 30W per channel amplifier, Bose speakers
below, and a Metz antenna at the masthead. Definitely nice sound. No
cockpit speakers. Good conversation and the burble of the wake provides
cockpit entertainment. Well, ok, for the lonely night watches we have a
Walkman for the person on deck. I have been very unimpressed by the
electrical performance of marine stereos. They seem to be quite inferior
to the better automobile units. Our system is two years old and so far
has been trouble-free. Automobile units have to be pretty rugged to 
survive. All the components are mounted well out of the reach of spray. 
The speakers are the ones Bose makes for outdoor use. They're a bit of a 
pain to mount on a bulkhead (the sides of the enclosure tapers) and 
would be quite awkward in a cockpit). The masthead antenna really helps
when cruising away from major metropolitan areas. 

    
>  Oh? This is definitely a matter of opinion. For me nothing like a good
>  dark ale, Celtic folk music or perhaps some early medieval dances, and
>  cruising. 

Alas, even this will not keep my wife below decks for more than a few 
minutes.

On my previous boat the partners spent more time discussing the stereo than 
all the other electronics combined.  We all had our opinions on stereos but 
collectively didn't know a wit about VHFs' or Lorans.  

I had some very good sound and longevity out of a Blaupunkt radio in a 
succession of cars so we bought one of those for the boat.  Mounting was 
straitforward.  We put it on bracket in the nav station near the rest of 
the eletronics and ran the speaker wires through the channels in the hull 
liner to the speakers themselves.

We looked at a lot of installations on other boats to determine the optimal 
speakers and locations.  Here is where the compromises had to be made.  The 
best sounding speakers were also the most prone to water damage.  I know 
because they were the same ones I had in my car doors and I had been 
replacing them every 1 1/2 years.  The water resistant ones didn't sound as 
good.  The small self enclosed ones designed for cars sounded the worst of 
all.  Not nearly as nice as a bulkhead mount or small bookshelf speaker.  
However, the only bulkhead available was the structural one that held the 
chainplates down.  We had seen and liked the sound of speakers mounted 
there but I couldn't bring myself to cut holes in that critical an area.

Small bookshelf speakers sounded good and could have been mounted in 
several places but they looked kinda "chunky" in the cabin. So we went with 
the small self enclosed ones that are bracket mounted.  We located them in 
corner where the bulkhead meets the ceiling and topsides to accentuate 
their pathetic bass.  They had the advantage of being detachable so we 
could play them outside.  But they sounded so bad out of their normal 
environment we stopped doing it and just cranked up the volume when we 
wanted tunes on deck.  This can be painful on the ears of anyone who has to 
go below.

We eventually got to carrying a boom box anyway.  There was never 
agreement on the definition of good music.  With the boom box we offered 
two choices and it actually sounded better on deck than the regular stereo. 
That way nobody gave me any grief when I put on my country and western 
tunes.

- gene
                    

    We installed essentially the same type of stereo on Wags as Dave
    described in .1 ... Pioneer car stereo in the nav station, Jensen 6x9
    car speakers down below, and 5" circular "water resistant" speakers in
    the cockpit area.  I can't think of the name of the water resistant
    speakers we settled on, but they sounded pretty good.  As far as the
    cockpit speakers go, our biggest concern was about the proximity of
    the speaker magnets to the compass, but it appears that 3-4 feet of
    air space is sufficient to prevent interference with your compass
    readings.  Also, we recessed the speakers behind the cockpit combing
    and installed a pair of those little screw-in portholes over them for
    when they're not in use.
    
    We had to replace the cockpit speakers after 2-1/2 seasons, but the
    stereo and cabin speakers are still working just fine, 7 seasons after
    they were installed.
    
    As has been noted, the biggest problem is satisfying several tastes in
    music (my favorite sailing music is Jimmy Buffett) ... on a boat you
    can hardly walk into the other room when you don't like the music.
    
    ... Bob
    

    Ah...as Bob says the screw down inspection ports are great for speaker
    installation.  Two advantages.  One, they minimize the time the
    speakers have to be water resistant.  Cover them up with the port when
    not in use.  Two, we covered ours when racing and the stray foot would
    be more likely to kick the grill of the speaker in the cockpit.
    
    We struggle with the rear mounting of our on deck speakers.  We
    balanced the distance from compasses etc with the desire to keep weight
    out of the ends of the boat with the advantage of the rear mounted
    speakers facing forward and voted (after much spirited debate) to
    forgoe light wieght infavor of the improved acoustics and lack of
    magnetic interference.
    
    Buffet I could deal with, but country & western and Celtic folk music?
    Actually, our inspirational racing tunes are Talking Heads for reasons
    that I can't remember.  I think it started in some bar...
    
    Dave

    The trend in this note seems to favour the regular car system than
    marine equipment. Particularly in .2 I noted that Alan mentioned
    this. On a few visits to the States I have seen Combi systems in
    the marine stores which are reputed to be of marine quality, the prices
    in Golberg Marine in NY for instance are more than competitive with
    car system prices here in Ireland. Does anyone reccomend Combi or
    not?
    Regards,
    Tom
    

    
    	Practical Sailor also seemed to wonder if the marine stereos were
    	worth the extra as well, as I recall. The one Combi I dealt with
    	was a bit anemic with 4 speakers. If you want ANYTHING to come out
    	of a 4-5" cone, there had better be plenty o watts available.
    
    	I'm dragging my feet on the installation also. The ghetto blaster
    	has taken 2 tumbles; one sprained the tuner, the next popped the
    	cassette door. Also makes nice divots in the teak. Got some Radio
    	Shack $30 black-metal cased speakers; OK for that kind of money,
    	and at low sound pressure levels (aaaahh not just a
    sailor/engineer,
    	but an AES hack!!) they sound a little better than the blaster...
    	anyway, like Gene, I'm slow to hack up a nice interior, altho more
    	concern for aesthetics than monocoque-isity (?) since the strength
    	members are well buried.
    
    	Another point of interest, leastways for me is DAT decks are on the
    	way, finally, this spring. I never wanted to pump a lot into CD's;
    	just can't get into fooling with the guts. So if I can find a half
    	decent, removable (a la Sony Shuttle) deck, this will be aboard.
    
    	I heard the WAGS cockpit setup, was surprised at the quality. Bob,
    	if you think about it, ask Dick what brand. The access port is the
    	way to go.  Brian had some 6X9's, I think, stuffed into Coalition
    	(analog compasses? hahahah!) and I heard they didn't age well...
    	anywho, my problem will be the curvature of the back end of the
    	cockpit. Maybe a monster woofer in the transom, midranges in the
    	sheet winches, piezo tweeters each side of the boom.... and a few
    	more batteries to run the thing!!!
    
    	Oh yeah, Alan- what are these dances, and where do you do them??
    	Also, as a perceived safetyseamanship type, how can a night watch
    	afford the aural distraction of a walkman?
    	Seems to me fordeck dancing should be done with the Lirakis on, and
    	the headphones off >8*} !! Oh and hatches closed, Guiness
    	open... etc...

	Gee you guys have it so easy. Try mounting it on a Catamaran.
I can still remember the looks I used to get at some of these snooty
high fi stores

them: Can I help you?

me: sure, I am looking for one of those there water proof boom boxes.

them: Oh, yes, we have several right here. What type of features are you looking
      for? AM/FM, Tape, Dobly, DBX??

me: How good is the waterproofing

them: Excuse me ???

me: Well, how deep can they go??

them: Ohh..  They are water resistant, not waterproof

me: what does that imply?

them: What do you mean?

me: Well, can they take ohh.., lets say 4-5 feet of depth before they leak

them: they are not warranted for that. Why would you want to do that?? (looking
	terribly confused)

me: Well, we have a way of getting in over our heads at times,and thats how
    deep they may go before we right the stupid boat. Oh well, never mind...



Some people strap on boom boxes (I believe the term is Naval, as in hang it
   from the boom ;>)  ) occationally when we race. Ussally 1812 overture or
   some other Eurpoean marching tune. Great when going to weather in a blow,
   spray in your face and survial on your mind. Personnaly, I cann't afford
   the weight (already 115 lbs over minimum) so we do not carry one.

My brother is a civil engineer who drives constantly in boonies with his old
4x4 with the roof removed for the summer and fall. The waterproof speakers
(Sony) have held up very well over the years.

   As to music, I started collecting songs for a video on sailing I want to
make in the future. Got all the standards. Then last year we took the new
boat out (actually 3 of us took it out) on a cold windy Oct day. The boat
kicked the manure out of all of us. Really earned our respect. At we put the
boat on the trailer at the end of the day, one of the guys tossed in a
Bob Seager tape. The song "long to strut her stuff" kicked in, and we looked
at each other. It was the perfect Catamaran song.

She's a lady through and through
She gave em quite a battle
all they could handle 
She'll bruise some, hurt too.
But oh, she loves to strut her stuff
Yeah, They do respect her but...
they love to watch her strut.


Says it all about fast cats...

john

p.s. anyone going out to do some hurricane flogging this weekend??

Another alternative, which I've considered but not tried, is the Bose 
Acoustiwave boom box.  Definitely upscale, and sound to match or exceed 
its price of several hundreds.  (But equivalent to good componenets.)  It 
offer the option of 110v, 12v or battery operation, the last one requiring 
about 15 D-cells.  Having heard the unit several times in the past, the
bass is incredible.  

For installation, strap/bungee it into a pilot berth or shelf, and rig a 
couple small padeyes in the cockpit to do the same there.  One big 
advantage is that you can take it ashore or home for the winter to use 
just as easily.

J.

Sailing music?  I, too, enjoy folk Celtic music, and have developed a
strong taste for Jimmy Clegg & Savuka and Afro-Pop in general. 

    re .2 BOSE cockpit speakers
    
    I have mounted two BOSE 101's water resistant speakers on the lower
    stern rail facing forward.  In addition I had blue canvas covers lined
    with vinyl made that have elastic cord in the bottom.  They sound great
    after two years of use.  The boat is in the water year round as I sail
    out of San Diego.  We don't get as much rain as you folks do but these
    covers have held up in some fairly strong storms.
    
    I used the universal nylon rail mounts that henge around the pipe and
    have a large wing nut, which makes them easy to remove (but I don't).
    The grill can be directly pulled out.  Next remove the speaker by
    pulling the front plastic face to which the speaker is screwed to out.
    Carefull not to pull too far to break the wires.  On one of mine I had
    to remove the three screws that hold the speaker itself.  All of this
    is so you can through bolt the rail mounts (two per speaker) directly
    to the bottom of the speaker cabinet.  Sounds complicated but it only
    takes 20 to 30 minutes and they are ready to use.
    
    Inside I have a regular auto Hatachi stereo cassette unit flush mounted
    in the nav station and Radio Shack Minimus 7's mounted with brackets on
    the sides of the main cabin.  Recently I added a portable Sony CD
    player that has an adapter that looks like a cassette tape that you
    insert into the stereo like you are playing a tape.  Also it comes with
    a 12V DC adapter for a cigarette lighter.  
    
    The BOSE and CD's make those beers go down mighty easy.
    
    Chuck

    RE .9
    
    Uh ... that's "Johnny" Clegg isn't it?  And you're right, GREAT boat
    music as far as I'm concerned ... good skiing music too!
    
    ... Bob
    

    Some great ideas here.  I'll add a couple of obvious points, as well.
    
    Your installation like most will be a balance of $ to sound quality. 
    The most expensive setup may not give you the best sound, however.
    That is why car audio systems are so difficult to install-there's
    a lot of personal taste involved.  
    
    A few suggestions:
    
    1) Consider removable components.  Many car receivers are made to be
        easily removed for theft protection.  If you are away from your
        boat, you may want to remove the moisture sensitive components of
        your system (definately during the winter).
    
    2) To get the sound quality the YOU like, consider an equalizer.  This 
        will allow you to tune the system to your boat's characteristics
        and your ear.  Most have a fader control that lets you balance (and 
        shut off) the cabin speakers from the cockpit speakers.
    
    3) Get speakers for the cockpit that are water resistent and have
        durable grills.  No matter where you mount them, unless you 
        remove them as mentioned in previous notes, there is a chance 
        for damage.
    
    I elected to get a Kenwood receiver with CD input, a Kenwood equalizer
    and Sony cockpit speakers.  I had Babb speakers previously and while
    the sound was very good, the grill always were damaged.  Unlike the
    Sony's, the grill weren't removable and couldn't be replaced (another
    consideration).  I like the previous note have a Discman and 12V
    converter and run this through the receiver.  All the components 
    (excepting the speaker) can be removed in 2 minutes.  I have nylon
    bags to carry them in off the boat.  I bought all the stuff through
    catelogs....
    
    Have fun

RE: .11,
    
>>>    Uh ... that's "Johnny" Clegg isn't it?  

Jimmy Clegg, Johnny Cliff, at times it all muddles in this bucket I where 
I used to store a brain.  Yep, Johnny Clegg & Savuka it definitely is.

J.

    There is an article in this month's Offshore (mine came in the mail a
    couple of days ago) that describes what's new in marine stereos - 
    and claims that in the last couple of years, there has been a switch
    toward some serious waterproofing around / over the hole you shove
    the casette into. ets, and that they are no longer just overpriced
    auto stereos.
    
    Not what I would call a great technical article, but might be worth
    your time to read.
    
    Bill
    

    While talking with the folks from Autohelm about the (costly) repairs
    required on my Autohelm 1000, I asked them about speakers mounted
    in the cockpit and Autohelms. His suggestion was to keep the speakers
    and the Autohelm 3-7 feet apart. That pretty much spoils any ideas
    I had for mounting speakers outside unless someone has any experience
    with getting around this probelm. So, for those with cockpit mounted
    speakers, can I assume you don't have some type of compass controlled
    self steering unit?
    
    While talking about Autohelm's, does anyone out there have an older
    (compass dial... not pushbutton) Autohelm 1000 with a good compass
    in it they want to get rid of? If not, anyone need some spare parts
    for thiers? The service rep at Autohelm suggested I upgrade to a
    newer Micro 1000 unit. Its just a little over $100 more than to
    have the old unit fixed and has a bit more drive. His feelings were
    that my Tartan 30 was a might bit too heavy for the older style
    1000. I only got to use the unit once before it went bad so I don't
    have much experience with it. 
    
    Tuneless,
    
    		Paul

    
    	Woops, to be a bit more specific about my last reply (-.1),
    if I mount speaker in the aft end of the cockpit I will be within
    3-7 feet of the Autohelm. If I mount them in the foward section
    I am now very close to the navagation compass. Mmmmm, maybe if I
    stick them right in the middle I can mess up both equally. I won't
    know where the hell I'm headed but both units will agree and I'll
    have music to get lost by :')