Conference unifix::sailing

    Sorry.... a typo on the main note... the boat is a KELLS 23'.   I know
    KELLS has since gone out of business.  any input out there?
    

    Assuming you want an honest opinion, and no offense to those who may
    have a Kells, but I would not buy one.
    
    Have done both hull and rigging repair work on various Kells, and have
    found them to be extremely cheaply built, poor sailers, and subject to
    all sorts of failures (shrouds, mast/boom fittings, keel/centerboard
    hardware, you name it) under the slightest uncomfortable conditions.
    
    This is frequently reflected in their general resale value, and the
    company having gone out of business raises other issues of service,
    etc.
    
    There are a number of fine boats listed throughout this conference in
    the same size and configuration range as the Kells which would be
    better buys and allow you to concentrate more on learning to sail.
    
    If overnighting is not a critical issue, a 14-18 foot daysailer would
    provide the training you need while being a lot more forgiving of
    errors in execution (Rhodes 18, 19, Cape Cod Mercury, numerous other
    day sailers).
    
    Have you thought of lessons prior to making a purchase?  There are also
    numerous courses/novice clubs in this file as well.
    
    Welcome to the navy, in any event, and good luck.

    Thanks for the input. After looking the boat over a second time it is
    showing some signs of wear and poor materials.  It would need a little
    cleaning up, some fiberglass repair, and wood/trim repair.  I am
    inclined to back out of this particular deal although its probably good
    for the price.
    
    I would still like to look for a 22-23' size so that I can overnight 
    at mooring/slip, and when I've advanced enough I'd like to get it out
    in the ocean.  As far as learning, I will look into some sailing
    clubs etc.  I've searched hundreds of notes so far and havent found any
    info for NH area yet though.   What I had intended is to get a couple
    of my freinds who are sailing nuts to give me a hand.  I thought that
    with a good outboard and a calm lake I could learn slow.
    
    Any more input as to a good beginning boat, capable of weekenders,
    that is "stable" (as my wife says), trailorable and well made 
    I'd appreciate the input.   I've looked at a couple Catalina 22's and
    tey seem to be a well built boat.  
    
    One more question, what are the advantages/disadvantages of a shoal
    keel versus a swing keel?
    

>    One more question, what are the advantages/disadvantages of a shoal
>    keel versus a swing keel?
    
A fixed keel is less likely to fall off, jam, require maintenance, etc. (If
your swing keel falls off, your boat will capsize.)

A swing keel is typically lighter, easier to trailer, easier to recover from
groundings. (A swing keel will typically be housed in a "trunk" located in some
obnoxious location along the centerline of the boat.)

Personally, I like fixed keels (especially full keels) when going offshore.

For a trailerable boat, used in protected waters, a swing keel is a perfectly
reasonable solution. I've owned 2 boats with swing keels, a 17-foot Venture
(no brickbats, please), and a 14' O'Day Javelin. I never had any trouble with
the keel on either of these boats.

--RS

    For the money and investment you can't do better than a swing keel
    Catalina 22 to learn on.  It offers good quality, easy trailerability,
    a huge fleet if you ever want to race it, and a good market when you
    want to resell it (which you will at some time).  The swing keel is
    perfectly good for what you are looking for.  Good luck and stay away
    from the Kells by all means!
    
    Dave

     I asked a similar question last year, but I was looking for a small racer
(Which I got, like, sail every week and enjoy every time I use it). You may
be able to use some of the information that was given to me. The note is 
#1357, lots of good reading.
     If you're just starting to sail a smaller boat could have many advantages.
It sounds like you want to dry sail the boat (living off a trailer) and I'd 
burn out my truck real fast if I tried to pull my S2 around like I did my 470. 
     Being the owner of both a 15.5', 254# racing dinghy and a 22' 2200#
one design racer I can identify advantages to both.

     The 470 (15.5' 254# racer) is a sophisticated boat for it's size. It 
has lots of sail trim controls and man can this thing scream (but I've only
passed a windsurfer once). The boat is thrilling and capsizing is no 
problem. It's a touchy boat and it will capsize easily. There is a distinct 
advantage to having little more damage than wet clothes when you capsize, 
which is the case with a small boat with positive flotation. 
     Also the 470 trails well and went on many camping trips with me. I pulled
it with a couple of cars and present truck. The only thing about trailering it
long distances was that I'd forget that it was behind me and almost changed
lanes too soon once. I could set up the boat in less than a half hour by 
myself and in about 15 minutes with someone who'd been there to help me
before. (It'd take longer to explain to inexperienced help than it would to 
do it myself) It was easy to get home from work and take my boat to the lake 
for a couple hours of sailing in the summer. 
     I love the 470 and couldn't get rid of it. At this point it needs some
work cause I sailed it too hard last year and blew down the rig. I haven't 
done the work it needs because I've been putting all my time and money into 
the S2 which I bought after breaking the 470. The 470 will still sail, but 
she wants a new mast and sails to be as killer fast as I want her.
     I wouldn't choose a 470 to learn the basics in, I learned my basic 
sailing at 12. I would suggest a small boat for learning because it would 
reduce the magnitude of a catastrophe if you did something majorly wrong.

     The S2 (22', 2200# one design), with a deck stepped mast, retractable 
keel and a trailer (that weighs more than my 470, trailer and crew combined)
is without question a trailerable sailboat, that could be dry sailed. However,
the day I pulled it down to the boat yard in late April my truck (Ford Ranger,
177cid v6; small but sufficient) ran hotter than it has ever run any other 
time. I often consider a week long vacation to Lake Champlain, but I'd need 
time on either end for pulling the boat up there and setting it up as well as 
    unrigging it on either end. I can step the mast and rig the boat in
    about an hour, but not alone. 
     I've done a couple of overnights now and only want to do more. I've gone
further on this boat than I ever went on my 470. I've got space to put charts
and figure out how I'm going to get to where I've decided to go. I can anchor 
some place and have lunch. I can have lunch while I'm sailing. I can sail it 
in bigger wind than my 470 because I can reef the main and put up a smaller 
jib. Can bring a couple of people and I don't scream and yell at them as much
cause the boat's more stable. I like this boat a lot.
      My keel is not a swing keel but a dagger board type of keel. The dagger
is theoretically faster because the slot matches the board shape. With the 
swing type there has to be a slot as long as the board is deep which will be
turbulent and slow you down. A fixed keel would probably have even better 
speed because the keel is faired in to the hull and this would be even less
turbulent. From my point of view (especially while trying to maneuver around
    the board housing in the cabin) one advantage to a fixed keel (there are
    more) would
be the space in the cabin. I would about double the space in my cabin if I
had a fixed keel. I would not like the idea of trailering a fixed keel because 
the boat would be another 3-4 feet in the air (read top heavy and less stable
on the trailer) and if I wanted to launch at a ramp I'd need an extension on
the trailer and a steeper ramp. 
     The bigger boat has a lot of advantages, but they'd be lessened without 
a mooring. The bigger boat cost more money to buy, maintain, and use (mooring
fee). I really hope that moving, which I've had to do because of budgetary 
reasons, will reduce my expenses enough so that I can continue to enjoy my
larger boat. I'm really hooked on the larger boat and sailing on the ocean,
I don't want to loose it just because of money. I thought new skis were 
expensive till I started pricing sails. How on earth am I going to afford
my next boat?:-)!

     There are a lot of 22' boats out there for sale which may suit you 
where not looking for a racer, many are Catalinas.  A more stable boat will 
    mean more weight. 
That's weight you have to pull down the road (what kind of tow vehicle do 
you have?) 
     For dry sailing I think you might be better off with a smaller boat. 
with a bigger boat a mooring will make it more usable. But hell, I bough a
    bigger boat, why shouldn't you?

     Geoff

    Thanks for the replys so far.. all good & helpful.   I have read alot
    of old notes from a few years back and the Cataline and Oday really
    sound like what I'm looking for, which is comfortable, cruiser,
    trailorable, reliable, well built, and good resale.   
    
    As for towing, I don't anticipate moving the boat more than a few times
    a year.  I would like to start on one lake and progress from there.  Of
    course that means finding a mooring or slip.  As for the tow vehicle, I
    bought a new Jeep Cherokee 4X4 with big 4.0 Liter 6 cyl. because I had
    in the back of my mind the need to pull a boat (plan ahead).  From what
    I read the jeep w 4.0 is a great tow vehicle.
    
    So I guess I will take my time and look for a 22' Catalina or Oday and
    also look into classes/sail club.  If anyone in the NH area has a
    Catalina/Oday 22' and would be willing to give me a ride I'd be glad to
    supply the lunch :')   
    
    gary
    

re .3:

If you want to sail on the ocean eventually, why not start on the ocean? 
Some of the nice parts of ocean sailing are the variety of places to 
visit, the distances that can be sailed, and the ever changing conditions.
I learned to sail on the ocean and have never done any lake sailing 
(well, maybe once or twice briefly years and years ago). 

    re: .8... starting on the ocean sounds great but very intimidating.
    I have been associated with power boats all my life but always on a 
    lake, although it was Moosehead lake in Maine which is 26 miles long
    and feels like the ocean sometime.   However I'm sur that ocean sailing
    has many differences such as TIDE, weather, rules/laws/standard
    operating procedures, etc.  Can you recomend any books/courses about
    ocean sailing?
    

    Go with the Catalina 22 or similar O day.   I owned one of the original
    Catalina 22's (#174) and found it did all that was expected of its type
    and size.     even in the early 197o's Frank Butler(the owner of
    Catalina) showed his concern for his product.     I'm sure you can get
    a 22 for good money and better still be able to sell it when the time
    comes.
    
    Friends who owned Kells 22's were not as happy with their boats.
    
    Happy sailing !
    
    

re .9:

The Coast Guard publishes an excellent guide ($6) to the COLREGS, tides 
are most likely discussed in any basic navigation text, and there is 
always Chapman's. The basic mechanics of sailing are the same on a lake 
or the ocean. 

    I wouldn't be so quick to write off the Kells, if you truly mean a 23
    and not a 22.  There is a big difference.  I bought a new Kells in 1972
    and sailed it for three years and enjoyed it very much.  I recommend a
    swing keel for the novice.  It keeps you out of trouble, allows
    grounding on the level and above all facilitates trailering.  The cost
    savings of trailering vs a slip or mooring (don't forget winter storage
    too) are substantial.  
    The trailer allows a wide "cruising" range and gives the basic
    flexibility for the future.
    
    I had no quality problems with the Kells and found it very forgiving
    for the beginer.  It is not a fast boat by any means but you won't be a
    fast sailor for a few years anyway.  I sailed to places like Nantucket
    and Cuttyhunk with no problems and with the swing keel the is always
    room to anchor where the big boats can't.
    
    I also suggest the US Power Squadron free boating safety course prior
    to much ocean (even costal) sailing.
    
Good luck.  Give me a call if you want more infor on the Kells.
    Dave

    I have a Mark 23 for sale.  Hasn't been in the water in two years.
    Call me at dtn 266-4796  or BTOVT::MAYO_T, and I can send you more
    info.
    Tom