Conference unifix::sailing

Don't buy a used liferaft unless it has a currently valid inspection 
sticker from a factory-authorized inspector. Liferafts must be inspected 
annually and the cost of doing so is depressingly high ($200 to $400).
It doesn't take much neglect to ruin a raft. 

    A friend of mine has one for sale. Avon six man coastal in valise never
    used. He carried it on his passage from Hawaii to Seattle last summer.
    You can call him directly:  Glen Showalter (206)285-2400 work, 
    (206)842-6252.
    
    	Howard

    I have been looking at Life Rafts since mine got taken off my boat by
    hurricane Hugo.  Some advice from the fellow that certified mine each
    year (at a cost of about $250-300 each year) is to not even consider a
    raft that has "never been used" due the fact that if it hasn't been
    certified and tested regularly, the cylinders and tubes could probably
    be in need of repair, which is VERY costly.  It could offset the cost
    of a new raft.  The other point is age.  The technology is advancing
    very quickly and a raft that was state-of-the-art several years ago is
    ancient today.  He sets the time at 7 years.  If you have an old one he
    says it's OK to hang onto it for longer, but if you're buying one you
    want to have it for a couple of years.
    
    So, the word is be cautious!  It's your life you're fooling with. 
    Don't buy used unless it's new or recently certified.  Be careful of
    ads in the Want Ad (or NOTES files), the pepole are well meaning, but a
    faulty liferaft will kill you, not them.
    
    Good Luck,
    Jeff
    
    BTW - I bought a 4-man Platimo through Defender Industries for $1600
    and it IS state-of-the-art.  NEAT.
    
    

re .3:

>>>    BTW - I bought a 4-man Platimo through Defender Industries for $1600
>>>    and it IS state-of-the-art.  NEAT.
    
What, specifically, makes it state-of-the-art? Construction, design, 
materials? $1600 seems very inexpensive compared to other well-known 
rafts (Avon, Givens, etc).     

    The price through Defender is about 1/3 of list.  BOAT/US sells the
    same raft for $2800 to members.  So you can see the mark-up is
    substantial.  BTW - when you deal with Defender don't expect ANY
    service.  They are purely a "Good Stuff Cheap" broker and you have to
    know exactly (by model or part number) or you may get screwed.
    
    Ernie Smith, the owner of Seacoast Marine Enterprises in Mattapoisett
    like the construction and design.  Plastimo uses a Bladder within a
    bright yellow nylon cover.  This reduces the chance of sections
    sticking to one another when folded up and then tearing when inflated. 
    This is a common problem in a raft that is several years old.  When
    sitting on deck in a cannister the sun can cause it be like a oven
    causing all sorts of nasty things to happen.  He also likes the
    cannister design since they use a double seal on the cannister instead
    of the foam seal that Givens, Avon, and others use.  He says that the
    foam seal allows some moiture through causing carosion of the cylinders
    and other equipment in the raft.  They have addressed the common
    problems that he sees everyday.  That's where I was coming from with my
    comment on State-of-the-Art.  I'm sure that new models of Avon and
    Givens will also apply some of the same issues, but their price (even
    through Defender) is in $2-3000 range.  The Plastimo fit both my price
    and technology requirements.
    
    Jeff
    
    

    RE - .2
    
    I would be concerned about taking a Coastal Raft on an offshore
    passage.  They are not designed for this type of survival need.  Firts
    they usually have a single floor which will not prolong life in cold
    water climates (like Seattle or New England).  Secondly, a coastal raft
    usually has a single floatation tube (perhaps multi-chamber) instead of
    two which is standard in off-shore rafts.  The double tubes offer added
    protection both from wave height and from puncture in an extended
    survival situation.
    
    Stay away from a Coastal Raft if you are heading off-shore!
    
    Jeff
    
    

re .5:

>>> Plastimo uses a Bladder within a bright yellow nylon cover.  
>>> This reduces the chance of sections sticking to one another when 
>>> folded up and then tearing when inflated. This is a common problem 
>>> in a raft that is several years old.  

Hmmm, never heard of this. But the inner bladder must be folded against 
itself, so there must be some chance of sticking even with this design. 
Maybe the key word here is reduces. Do you have any data on whether or 
not sticking is a problem with rafts that have been serviced every year? 
I would assume that annual inflating/deflating/repacking would minimize 
the problem. By the way, getting a liferaft back into its canister is a 
neat trick. I unpacked and inflated (using the manual pump) my raft one
year before taking it to the inspector. A very good idea, as I learned
much about the raft and its equipment. I couldn't get it back into
the canister. 

>>> He also likes the canister design since they use a double seal on 
>>> the canister instead of the foam seal that Givens, Avon, and others use.  
>>> He says that the foam seal allows some moisture through causing 
>>> corrosion of the cylinders and other equipment in the raft.  

Hmmm, Avon's foam seal is about 3/4" square and very stout and 
well-glued. I doubt much moisture gets through it. However, the canister 
must be vented to prevent excessive internal pressures (above and below 
ambient) from temperature change. My suspicion would be that most 
moisture enters through the venting system. (The internal pressure in 
the canister induced by temperature change could approach the internal
pressure in an inflatable dinghy if the canister weren't vented.) As I 
recall the Givens canister has no gasket at all (but I may well be 
wrong), which I would not be comfortable with, especially since our raft 
is on the foredeck.

Does the Plastimo have any ballasting? The various Coast Guard and other 
tests indicate that ballasting is a good thing. Also, does Plastimo have 
any longevity data under actual survival conditions? (Avon's record is 
rather good in this regard.) I'm curious since our raft was built in 
1982 and replacement looms on the (I hope distant) horizon.

Regarding pricing: When we bought our Avon several years ago, the US 
list price was something like $2800. We bought it (mail order) from 
Thomas Foulkes in London. Even with air freight and duty the price was 
under $1700 (several hundred dollars less than Defender's price). 
Depending on the dollar/pound exchange rate purchase in England may or 
may not give comparable savings today. 
    
Alan

    Current UK prices for Avon excluding VAT (Tax..) and in Pounds
    Sterling.
    
    AVON
    ====
    
    4 Man RORC Valise			 997 
    4 Man RORC Cannister		1035
    4 Man Offshore Valise		1053
    4 Man Offshore Cannister		1090
    6 Man RORC Valise			1083
    6 Man RORC Cannister		1123
    6 Man Offshore Valise		1138
    6 Man Offshore Cannister		1178
    6 Man Coastline Valise		 843
    6 Man Coastline Cannister		 876
    
    
    Pete                                     

re -.1:

Oh boy, today's Wall Street Journal quotes the exchange rate as $1.67 
equaling 1 pound sterling. Since airfreight and duty were well under $200 
when we bought our liferaft, buying an Avon in England is still MUCH
cheaper than buying from any US source. (Note, you cannot ship liferafts
on passenger aircraft due to the pyrotechnics in the raft's emergency
kit.) Our Avon was manufactured less than two weeks before we received 
it. 

    The Avon direct from England is my most likely choice. The Plastimo
    sounds great, my concerns would be parts, service, and reputation.
    
    Alan, did you order directly from AVON or one of the mail order 
    houses? If you could supply a bit more information that would 
    be appreciated.
    
    Pete, thanks for supplying the latest prices!
    
    	Thanks to all for sharing your information and opinions.
    
    				Rich

    The prices I quoted came from a mail order chandler called 
    Cruisermart 
    36/38 Eastern Esplanade
    Southend on Sea
    Essex SS1 2ES 
    England
    Tel (0702) 460055
    Fax (0702) 461669
    Telex 995518 SHLINE
    
    I have used them on and off over the years and found their prices
    competitive. 
    
    Pete

    Thanks for the information Pete,
    	There has been a price increase at Cruisermart to 1190 sterling,
    shipping would be about 150, US Customs tax 3.8 % so the total would
    be about $2300. This is still a significant savings over US prices.
    
    	Does anyone know what the other chandlers prices might be?
    

re .10:

I ordered a six-person, double floor Avon in a canister from Thomas 
Foulkes in London. I wrote them a letter asking for a quote. They 
replied promptly, saying one was in stock. I sent a personal check in US 
dollars for the raft and air freight. Foulkes called me at DEC (I'd 
given them my number) to tell me that the raft was now out of stock and 
would I like my check back (wow, talk about good service!). When told I 
could be shipped a raft in a couple of weeks, I said that would be jolly 
good and please do it. Less than two weeks later Delta Airfreight at 
Logan Airport (Boston) called to ask if I wanted my raft delivered. To
avoid delivery charges and hassles, I drove to Logan, found the customs
guy, paid the duty, and collected my raft. Maybe Foulkes now takes
MasterCharge, which would make it even easier. A quick phone call would
do it. In fact, Foulkes overestimated the air freight, and I have a
credit slip (in pounds sterling) that I will use should DEC ever send me
to Europe (I was so pleased with Foulkes' service and price that
I've never bothered to ask for a refund in US dollars.) 

Unless you will be making longish passages regularly, I'd suggest 
looking into renting a raft. We've probably spent as much on annual 
service for the raft as we paid for it. Service is usually so many 
dollars per person capacity plus the cost of replacing flares, etc. 
Every five years or so the gas bottle must be hydrostatically tested 
(expensive). The last couple of years we've had our raft serviced at 
Landrigan Corporation (at Logan Airport). Nice people. 

    Landrigan rents life rafts too.  Very knowledgeable and reasonable.
    We always need the raft for short durations such as races that require
    them and find renting to be the way to go.
    
    Dave

    re Cruisermart
    
    They quoted you the price including VAT (Value added tax) which
    is their list price. In the small print of their catalogue it quotes
    that for overseas customers divide by 1.15 thus my prices. They
    are I believe competitive. The only reason I can see for purchase
    rather than lease / hire is if you are going to be away for a long
    period of time and a hire / lease company won't take the risk.
    
    
    Pete
    

    
    Does anyone know address for Defender industries?
    

    Defender Industries, Inc
    P.O. Box 820 
    255 Main St.
    New Rochelle, N.Y. 10801-0820
    
    Phone (914)632-3001
       
    djc

    
    Thank you
    

    I have just been given a Beaufort 6 man life raft.  The raft was used
    in an experiment by the coast guard here and is now no longer needed.
    
    From visual inspection of the raft, it seems that the only damage is to
    the water ballast bags which were cut in order to retrieve the raft. 
    Otherwise it seems fine.
    
    There is no cannister/valise ... and the CO2 cylinder is of course
    used.
    
    I will now attempt to refurb this so that I can use it (or at least
    have it available) this summer.  
    
    Does anyone have any ideas as to how to inspect/re-furb one of these ?
    and where one might obtain Beaufort spares ?

    If you really want to use this life raft for its intended purpose (I.E. 
    survival after a sinking.), I suggest you take it to a certified,
    professional repacking station. Trying to service and repack it
    yourself is a bit like repacking a parachute from an instruction
    mamual, you can probably do it but finding out if you did it correctly
    or not could ruin your whole day!
    
    I discussed this subject with the folks at Chase-Levit in Portland,
    Me., they convinced me that a professional inspection and repacking is
    worth the cost.

    I second his advise.  If you intend to use it in a life threatening
    situation, after a sinking you want the think to work....RIGHT!
    
    The best way to insure that is to have it professionally repaired
    and repacked.
    
    Jeff

    No argument at all with your advice, except that I have sailed for the
    last 10 years without a life raft ..... I (knowlingly) took the risk.
    
    Now, through an unexpected opportunity, I have been given the chance to
    reduce the risk ...... I could reduce it all the way by spending approx
    5-600 dollars to have the professionals do the re-packing or I could
    reduce it somewhat less by doing some of the work myself.  I have no
    money budgetted for this but would still like to do something.
    
    

re .22:

Well, many years ago I took my Avon liferaft out of its canister and 
inflated it with a hand pump. That was easy. After deflating it, I tried 
to refold it and get it back into the canister. After of number of 
futile tries and increasing frustration, I took it to the professional 
repacker. In other words, repacking a raft isn't easy. I would guess that 
it would be possible to inadvertently pack the raft in such a way that 
it would not inflate properly with the gas bottle. Repacking 
instructions were not included with our raft (we bought it new). 
Moreover, your raft needing repairs is all the more reason to take it to 
a certified service station, at least this first time.

Questions of safety and reliability aside, there are the usual questions
of legal liability. If you need your raft and it fails after you
repacked it, you are quite likely to be sued (at least in the United
States) by anyone injured or by a non-survivor's heirs for negligence
(or whatever) and lose. Such lawsuits have already happened. 

Alan

I know it's not strictly relevant, but the Racing Rules ( O.R.C. Safety Regs. )
specify that a life raft must be inspected by a registered organization
ANNUALLY, and that the certificate stating that inspection has take place
is kept on the boat.

Chris

    And from a learning standpoint the people that did our raft let me
    watch as they inflated, deflated, added some items and repacked the
    raft. The raft was used when we bought it and had not been inspected 
    (we got a good deal) and after the inspector inflated it  began to lose
    pressure and delate. It was repaired and inspected annually from then
    on. Better at the repackers than out on the briny deep.
    

    I am in the stage of looking to buy an Avon liferaft from good
    UK (big $ savings) but I am confused with the lack of information
    about the onboard storage, and the Hydrostatic release equipment.
    Could I get some knowledge,advice here from people that have
    liferafts installed on deck or keep them down below?
    First which is more practical,valise or canister?
    Would you keep a canister liferaft in the cabin like,usually,is
    done with the valise?
    Would you install the Hydrostatic release,when installed on deck,
    or just assume that there will be enough time to throw it in the water
    manually?
    If you have one on deck what intallation method you used,mounts,very
    cheap,or cradle,expensive.?
    How many pieces of gear for the Hydrostatic release? I was told 
    there is the Hydrostatic release valve appx.$ 135.00 and there is
    the Hydrostatic bar...? model BRHRM for $25.00 from BOAT US.
    As a matter of fact when you call BOAT US and ask for Avon Hydrostatic
    release thats what they offer which is confusing since they don't know
    about the real mechanism.
    Any other info available will be very helpfull.
    Hope GIGNA will mail the checks tommorrow other wise the deal is off.
    
    Regards.  

Since this involves safety and ultimately life and death ..... what 
follows is my opinion and nothing more. Please do what you think best.

Well, liferafts are not exactly light and easily handled. Avon's 
advertisements show a rather normally muscled man lifting a 
canister-packed raft over the lifelines. Yeah, right, sure, jolly 
unlikely. A six-person double floor Avon raft (a double floor is
essential in cold waters) in a canister weighs 93 pounds or more, and
the canister is 32x23x11 inches. A six-person raft in a valise weighs 
over 82 pounds and is 15" diameter by 25" long. In other words, both are
heavy and bulky. Heavy weather would increase their apparent bulk and
weight significantly. 

Valise-packed rafts should not be kept below deck -- getting them above
deck would be potentially quite time-consuming and difficult, especially
in rough weather (based on getting our rather lighter deflated Avon
Redcrest dinghy out the companionway in calm weather). A valise-packed
raft is intended to be kept in a cockpit locker in which nothing else is
kept. Most smallish boats don't have such a locker. (The one boat I've
sailed aboard that had a valise-packed raft in a cockpit locker was a
Seguin 44, and there was still a bit of other stuff in with the liferaft.) 

All this, in my view, leaves a deck-mounted canister-packed raft the only 
option for boats under 40' or so. 

Hydrostatic releases come (I am told) in at least two versions -- cheap
and expensive. The cheap ones ($150 or so) are neither testable or
repairable and must be replaced every couple of years. The expensive
ones can be tested and repaired. 

A hydrostatic release is, in theory, a nice idea. In practice, on a
sailboat, I'm not so sure. With all the rigging around, it seems to me
that there is a significant chance of the raft snagging on something and
not floating free. Besides, while sinking is unlikely (thankfully),
sinking so fast that a hydrostatic release will be of benefit is even
less likely. 

The other issue, for me, is that the hydrostatic release and 
accompanying hardware look rather less than adequately strong. Our raft
is mounted on (custom) teak chocks in front the mast (the only feasible
location on our 32' boat). I have no difficulty imagining breaking seas
across our foredeck, and the force of a breaking wave can be very large.
I'm not at all convinced that a hydrostatic release and related bits
won't break. 

Our chocks are bolted through the deck with eight 5/16 inch bolts and
very strong padeyes. The raft is lashed very, very tightly to the chocks
with eight turns of 1/4 dacron braid. My guess/hope is that a breaking
wave will destroy the canister before it is ripped off the deck. When
going offshore I tie a sharp knife to the raft lashings in case I have
to cut them quickly. The raft's painter is tied to the boat with a weak 
link (600 pounds breaking strength) so that the raft won't be pulled
under if the boat sinks before the painter can be untied or cut. 

In my cynical moments, I am not too optimistic at best about surviving a
sinking in really bad weather. Still, I won't go offshore without a 
liferaft. 

As always, seek out all the opinions you can find, think about the 
options as they pertain to you, and make the decision that feels best to 
you. If Capt. Landrigan (Landrigan Corp, liferaft sales and service) is
at the Boston Boat Show again this year, talk to him. 

Alan

    Is there a life expectancy for a liferaft?

    I now have a 6 person Givens in a canister that has never been
    inspected since it was built in 1980. Is there any chance it will still
    be servicable?

    I'm not going offshore this summer, and should not need it. I'd like to
    get it inspected next year (this spring is unlikely; one can only
    afford to do so much in a year).

    What does a complete inspection cost?

    Will they just tell me to get a new one and use the old one in my
    bathtub?

    BTW, it sits in a bracket forward of the mast (like Alan's) and is
    covered with canvas to help protect the canister, which is a pretty
    baby blue. I used a valise raft once (that is, took it offshore, not
    actually got in it!), and it was a pain. The only place we could keep
    it was in the cockpit, where it got food, soda, and beer dumped on it
    for 3 weeks. The canister is a much better choice.

    Givens is highly rated by PS (fwiw), but is a 14 year old model still
    useable?

    paul

re .28:

Bad news ......

Liferafts must be serviced annually. Your raft is quite possibly no longer
usable, even if serviced. Among other problems, the canisters are not
air-tight, so that condensation occurs inside the canister. This
moisture eventually will damage the fabric and other components. The
high-pressure compressed gas bottle must be hydrostatically tested every
few years (to ensure it doesn't explode). The bottle must be accurately
weighed to be sure it hasn't leaked. The other equipment packed with the
raft (eg, flashlight batteries, flares, water, first aid kit) have
limited service lives (about 3 years) and must be replaced regularly.
The raft itself must be inflated and checked for leaks. I think also the
fabric tends to stick together if the raft isn't inflated regularly,
which (the sticking) obviously might be disastrous if the raft is
inflated quickly by the compressed gas bottle. Another problem is that
carbon dioxide is very damaging to the raft fabric (at least the fabric
used by Avon). If the raft is inflated, every trace of carbon dioxide
must be purged when it is deflated. And on and on. 

Avons now have a 12 year warranty, but only (I think) if annually serviced. 
With annual service, they may last 15 to 20 years. The major problem is 
deterioration of the fabric and corrosion of the gas bottle.

Givens rafts are very good, and also very, very expensive. It is a shame 
(and foolish) that yours was neglected. I personally wouldn't trust it
even if it passes inspection. 

Annual inspections cost, depending on what equipment needs to be
replaced, something like $300 to $500. In my view, inspections should
only be done by a qualified, factory approved facility. We've had our
raft inspected by Landrigan in Boston for the last several years. We've 
also had an EPIRB packed inside the raft.

And there is always the nasty question of legal liability. Owners have 
been sued for negligence (by the survivors and the estates of the 
non-survivors) because they didn't have the liferaft serviced annually 
and the raft failed when needed.

Paying the inspection bill every year isn't much fun, but having your 
raft fail when needed is considerably less fun. I'd guess that over the 
years we'll spend several times the purchase price of our Avon on annual 
maintenance. To us, it is worth it. 

Alan

A couple of points...

	The ORC racing regulations insist that a liferaft, wherever it is
	stored, must be capable of being bought to the lifelines of the
	boat in 10 ( or is it 15 ? ) seconds. Our 6 man raft is stored 
	below, which is almost universal on racing boats, and conforms to
	that easily.

	In the UK, it is possible to hire liferafts for the season. These are
	inspected annually by a registered inspector ( again, a requirement of
	the racing regs. ) and if your offshore season is fairly short, will
	work out cheaper than the buying/depreciation/servicing costs. ( How
	do they do this economically, as every would want them during the 
	summer ? Perhaps they ship them all out to Aus. for the winter ! )	
	
	Chris
	

My 1980 Avon Coastal raft failed its inspection in 1993 due to "copperisation"
of the rubber fabric and was condemned. The raft was the valise type and was 
stored in the cabin below. 

Steve

    
    	I borrowed an Avon valise when I did the Marblehead to Halifax.
    This raft was serviced per the manufacturer, I don't recall the
    schedule. Anyway, due to the goodies inside all being up for
    replacement, Landrigan presented me with a bill substantially more than
    $500. I recall $40 for plastic jugs of fresh water... hmmm if I was
    floating, would I care that the water was 4 years old??
    
    	Anyway, I can't recall the rules verbatim, but we _were_ required
    to strap it on deck, compared to below... I think! I'll have to look
    that up this weekend. That weight did not dampen the pitch/yaw too
    well, tho I was happy to know it was right there, hopefully ready to do
    it's thing.
    
    	I also see old cannisters for short money, which look like SUCH A
    DEAL until you learn they've been sitting outside in some Florida
    boatyard for a decade. And they might be Brand X out of Bosnia, kinda
    tough to get parts-
    
    	Anyway, for coastal cruising, I either tow, or let about half the
    air out of the Zodiac, which allows the jib to sweep over it on the
    foredeck- with the pump strapped to it.
    
    	Out of sight of land, I make a call to my friend, and hope the 
    valise was JUST inspected!
    
    	Scott_the_weekend_warrior (or is that weakened?)

    A fellow I knew in Newport, had a Camper Nicholson 65, boat named
    Quicksilver.
    
    She pitch-polled in a storm, on the way to Bermuda and started taking on 
    water...FAST. Arthur could not find the leak. (Difficult with 65' of hull 
    and 18" of water in the boat and a rolling sea)
    
    He and crew were rescued by a freighter, and as he left his boat, he
    decided to inflate the 8-MAN LIFERAFT.   It worked, and inflated....
    
                          UP-SIDE-DOWN !!!
    

Upside down inflation of a liferaft is quite likely. That's one good reason
for attending a survival course where you find out how to deal with such
things. You also learn the truth of the old saying "only use a liferaft if
stepping up into it".

I don't know about the US, but in the UK there are various centres doing such
courses. I did it in Warsash, where they also train professionals. Part of the
course involved launching a liferaft in a swimming pool; jumping in with
full foul weather gear; getting an "unconscious" person into a liferaft;
getting out of an overturned liferaft; righting it. It also covered helicopter
rescue techniques. Interesting stuff.

Dave

I agree with  .34   I did the same course and words don't describe it well.

Without one experienced person, I guess most people wouldn't make it in to the
raft. 

Steve 

    Can anyone recomend a liferaft rental agency in the New England area?

    tnx,
    paul

    I believe that Landrigan at Logan Airport is a biggie. I haven't
    presonally done business with them, although I know people who have.
    
    Bill