Conference unifix::sailing

    Alan,
    ANYTHING to make it easier and faster to locate topics over the network
    has my vote!  
    
    I say go for it!
    
    Robert

    Do others share my perception that keyword usage is, on the whole,
    rather low in public Note files?  I applaud Alan's suggestion that we
    make better use of keywords, but I have a healthy skepticism that base
    note writers will always follow through.  When only some base notes
    receive keywords, there isn't much value in searching by them. Will the
    present and future moderator(s) accept the responsibility of somewhat
    arbitrarily managing the conference and adding the 'appropriate'
    keywords? Will we classify all old notes by the suggested keyword list
    (did I see CLOTHING on it?)? 
    
    Although I've only actively read this conference since mid-summer, I
    find it a constant source of valuable information.  But it _does_ have
    an ungodly large number of base notes;  after reading through about the
    first 450, I'm pretty much just staying current.  With so many bases
    and the speed of access from across N.A., the use of keywords as Alan
    suggests would be a great help.  _But_, only if all base notes
    eventually received some categorization. 
    
    BTW, I'd volunteer to spend some Christmas vacation time classifying
    old notes out if the consensus is to use keywords. 
    
    Thanks, Alan, for the thoughtful attention you give this
    conference!/Regards,Mark 
    

    If re-organising the file speeds access up I vote very firmly for
    it.........Keywords would help I believe.
    
    Pete
    
    

    
    
    	Alan,
    
    	I am one of those who reads Sailing virtually on a daily basis,
    	especially now that the Whitbread race is on the way (Thanks Tom)
    	and therefore I support any activity to make the accessibility
    	of this Notesfile better.
    
    	Also, I'd like to thank you for the work you do as a moderator.
    	It's good to have a moderator who's looking after his notesfile.
    
    	So: Yes please and keep up the good work.
    
    	Marcel

    Good idea!  I hope rev 2 speeds up DIR/TITLE= which is the only
    way I know of to find things.
    
    I'm not clear on the use of keywords.  Are these assigned by the
    moderator to each note?  Or is this the responsibility of the note
    writer?  If the latter, we may have quite a few unkeyed notes.
    
    - gene

    Go for it. Since you are not into iceboating, you need something to
    occupy your winter other than keeping those of us in CC EK3 happy and
    in line.
    
    I'm not at all confident that the average notes reader (in this file or
    any other) uses keywords all that much. Perhaps they are just a bit too
    obscure. Things that one does not use on a regular basis tend to get
    forgotten.
    
    barnacle bill

    Alan,
    
    I too am in favor of the changes you are suggesting.  I have found the
    file to be highly useful and the contributors to be very helpful.  This
    is certainly the most congenial file I have read.  I also appluad the 
    moderation thus far applied.  So, my $0.02 is...
    
    The use of keywords would be extremely helpful in trying to locate 
    information prior to opening a new note on a given subject.  In order 
    for this to work though you and future moderators may have to be more 
    vigilant in keeping things ship shape if you will ;-).  I do not know 
    how much time it takes to monitor notes for appropriate location and to 
    check for similar/same topics but it would help the SAILING community 
    by keeping like topics grouped or more easily located.  It would be
    beneficial if you or future moderators would apply keywords to notes
    that do not have them and need one but this may be an unreasonable
    request depending upon time and effort required.  I think the deletion 
    of unresponded to notes after x time is fine.  Many conferences have
    sale/wanted policies that after x time replies will be deleted.  A
    restructuring of the index to place more popular notes may not be
    necessary if they are easily found but still not a bad idea. You may 
    wish to ask for additional suggestions for keywords after compliling a 
    list of your own.  I would like to see one added for BOAT_REVIEWS or 
    ANOTHER_OPINION as in C.W.  If you are looking for ideas on how to
    restructure, you may wich to check out JOET::HOME_WORK.  That
    conference seems to be highly organized but the monitoring time to keep
    it neat may be frightening.   
    
    Keep up the good work Alan, I too appreciate the existence of the file.
    
    Brian        

    Great Idea!
    			I only wish some of the other notes moderators had
    the same attitude towards their job.  We would have to stick to the
    keyword scheme, a little bit of a bother at first, but well worth it in
    the long run.  An introductory message to new Sailing noters would
    educate them from the start.
    
    I say,	aye, aye capt'en
    
    Don

    Alan, 
    
    You have my vote for improving this conference if it makes sense.
    I am not a big "key_word" user today, but that doesn't mean I can't
    learn !!
    
    I, for one, try to be an avid READER and an occasional (after much
    encouragement) writer. Progress/Improvement should be encouraged
    rather than discouraged, even if it means "changing" some of our
    habits in how we use the conference.
    
    JC
     
   

    I too am an avid reader, and an occasional writer. I like Alan's idea
    and offer to help with the chore of classifying key words on existing
    base notes if that is possible.
    
    	Howard

    Alan, you have been doing a great job.    Go for V2 and Keywords .
    
    Frank

    Alan
    
    As a novice sailor, one who found his boat in this notes file, I
    have become and will remain an avid reader of this file.  The
    information is accurate and timely; but most of all the people who
    contribute make it worthwile to read and participate.
    
    As a moderator, you are doing an excellent job; I support your
    suggested changes.  Thanks
    
    Jay 

    Alan,
    
    Would be careful about deleting old notes -- don't
    do it *just* because there is no activity.  I've read plenty 
    of interesting stuff that hasn't been active for years...
    
    Does the new version allow us to see the contents of
    an entry, ie titles to replies?  That would be nice!!
    
    Thanks for the great effort!
    Dean

    Alan,
         I vote yes to the changes. I am open to using keywords if
    it helps. Also, thanks for the excellent job as moderator.
    
    Jack Burnham

    Amen brother, do it.
    
    And many thnks to your faithful watching over this file. I
    really appreciate it and the many noters who are helping me
    understand this sport!
    Don

Conversion to V2 format is a good idea.  1 caution about reordering the
notes; this could make note 1.* have a later date than 11.*-last.  You might
want to look at using PAN to make the notes have a faked creation date.
If you don't, new readers will start at note 11 and never see 1-10 until
they have gone through the rest of the notes.

Dick
LESLIE::PAN
kp7 and all that

    
    Alan, I too applaud your sugestions and the care that you have given
    this conference.  I have obtained valuable info from here that I
    may have had to learn the hard way (ouch!!), and have been entertained
    by many a topic that I originally had no interest...  Although only
    a few entries, I enjoy the information and knowledge of the entries
    of this file.  
    
    WOW!!  Another entry...  8^)   
    
    Thanks again Alan.  
    `Charlie'
    
    P.S.  Is one year long enough for the For Sale topic??  I am still
    making up my mind!!!!

    Ditto to al the above.  Great job so far.  We all (obviosly from the
    replies) appreciate your efforts.
    
    Dave

I agree with all the comments about excellent moderating on Alan's part!!

I'm not sure keywords are such a good idea. The principle is ok, but I fear
the execution will be flawed because people will not be able to remember
all the keywords and/or they will forget to enter them and/or they won't even
know this conference has keywords, etc.

I'm a regular participant in several notesfiles, and I haven't seen one yet
that effectively uses keywords.

One possible way to deal with the size of the notes file is to copy 
the current file into a sailing_old notes file, and then delete all notes
that are older than 12 or 18 months from the current file. If you want to
do a thorough search for something, you can search both files. If you are only
interested in recent opinions, you can settle for a dir/title=foo against the
new, smaller V2 file.

I'm not even sure that it's necessary to keep topics in one place. Certainly,
the FOR SALE stuff belongs in one place. But what's the harm in starting
a new conversation about an old topic? I view the sailing notes file much
like a cocktail party, where there are many conversations in progress. To my
mind, there isn't any obvious need to merge related conversations.

When you really need some specific info, the overhead of a DIR/TITLE or
even a SEARCH is not unreasonable.

--RS

	READY ABOUT!

	Take Sailing notes file onto a new tack.
	It's been fine.  The new course sounds good.

	I'd be glad to help add keywords to some topics
	when the time comes.

	Don't split into new and old files.  The search would become
	cumbersome.


	Al
	Windstrong

I support virtually any reasonable evolution which makes the moderator's 
job easier.  It's a great notesfile, and unquestionably the most important 
one on my daily round of reading!  Alan, certainly your moderation (in
both senses of the word) adds greatly to my enjoyment. 

RE: .19, 

>>>  I'm not sure keywords are such a good idea. The principle is ok, but I fear
>>>  the execution will be flawed because people will not be able to remember
>>>  all the keywords and/or they will forget to enter them and/or they won't 
>>>  even know this conference has keywords, etc.

If the moderator controls the list of available keywords, that alone 
simplifies the task.  Some regular noters will print out that list, and
just refer to it when they enter a new note.  Others can either take a
stab, or leave it unkeyworded.  Since rarely do more than one or perhaps
two new base notes get started each day, would you consider it an
imposition to have to add keywords to them yourself, Alan?  Also, if
keywords make it easier to find relevant topics, there may be a fewer
number of new base notes anyway. 

As to whether things are organized tightly (the New) or just a somewhat
random sequence (the Old) doesn't matter most of the time, since probably 
99% of readers simply hit the ENTER key to pace through each UNSEEN note 
or reply.  Organization only matters if you're looking for something, so 
why not try out what could be a better scheme?   If we start using 
keywords, who knows?...maybe within a year so will everyone else!

Standby to gybe! 

J.

    
    Alan, you've done a great job so far.  I trust your judgement.
    
    Regarding notes 1-10, perhaps crew wanted, crew available, and
    for charter would be worthy of their own notes.
    
    Regarding deletion, it makes sense to delete old for sale notes
    and most with no replies.  Otherwise some of the most informative
    notes are those that are a few years old now.  Let's keep them.
    
    Thanks for all the effort.
    
    Rick
    

    Hi, Alan!  My first attempt at a reply!
    
    Yes, by all means take the steps you see fit to aid you in moderating
    this very useful (and entertaining) notes file.  I am an avid reader
    here in Des Moines, Iowa.
    
    How else can we help?  This was easy!
    

    I support the use of keywords.  It allows the listing of notes
    according to subject and helps to prevent long periods of thumb
    twiddling while doing a DIR/Title.  The most effective use of keywords
    I've seen has been in the HOMEWORK notes file.  They use a scheme
    like Alan is describing.
    
    Applying keywords to a note is not hard.  The SHO /KEY command will
    list the available keywords.  The arrow keys will move a highlighted
    bar up and down the list.  Pressing the <select> key adds the
    highlighted keyword to the current note.
    
    Mike Hughes

    Mike,
    
    I just tried sho /key and my system snapped back something about
    qualifiers not being allowed and something about verbs....
    Don

    Don,
       Try......
    sh key/full
    
    Pete

    Right,  My mistake.  "SHO KEY /ALL" lists all the keywords available
    in the conference.  "SHO KEY /FULL" lists all the keywords AND the
    notes they have been applied to.  You can scroll up and down the
    list using the '2' and '5' keys on the keypad, not the arrow keys
    like I stated.  You add a keyword to the current note by pressing
    the '7' key or the 'select' key if you have a VT200 series terminal.
    
    Sorry for the misinformation.
    
    Mike H

    works fine,
    
    Thanks Pete & Mike
    Dopn

re .many

Thank you for the good words. It is nice to know that my moderation of 
SAILING is thought well of. 

re .8:

You suggested what I've been thinking about -- devoting a note to how 
to use SAILING. My thought is to make this Note 2 and make Note 3 the 
Directory_by_Keywords note. 

By the way, to everyone in general, the help in NOTES is quite helpful,
so helpful I don't even have a copy of the NOTES manual. If you're ever
unsure how to do something, just type HELP at the NOTES prompt. 

re .19:

I don't think two files -- old and new -- is a good idea. Many people don't
bother with DIRECTORY now, and adding the bother of a second file would
only make matters worse. 

re .several

Yes, keywords do not seem to be widely used, for using them does require 
some additional effort by the moderator(s) and by note authors. In some 
conferences, keywords can be created by anyone. I propose, however, to 
allow the creation of keywords only by the moderators. This will ensure 
that the number of keywords remains reasonably small. 

The appropriate keyword(s) should be added to a new base note by the 
author. This will be made clear in the how_to_use_SAILING note. Since 
the number of new base notes per day is small, I have no problem with 
adding the appropriate keyword(s) should the author not do so. I, of 
course, cannot make any commitments for future moderators.

Keywords can be listed on your terminal by SHOW KEYWORDS. There is no 
simple way to extract the list from SAILING. I have found a slightly 
complicated way to do so, however. I propose to make Note 3.1 the list 
of keywords, and Notes 3.2 - 3.n the directories_by_keyword. The command
EXTRACT filename 3.1 will copy the list from Note 3.1 into a file which 
can then be printed. EXTRACT/ALL filename 3 will copy all of the 
directories_by_keyword into a file which can then be printed. This will 
save time. 

It will be necessary for someone to add the appropriate keyword(s) to 
the existing base notes. This can be done by anyone. Any more 
volunteers? Doing a small number of notes, say 100, shouldn't take too 
long. I have written a procedure to create a directory of notes without
keywords. This will be Note 3.last. SHOW NOTE n/KEYWORDS will show the 
keywords of Note n. 

Regarding deleting old notes: I have no intention of deleting notes 
simply because they are old. It does seem appropriate to delete old FOR 
SALE notes, notes about past events (the 1989 party that never happened, 
for example), old crew needed notes, etc. Old means older than one year. 
I have already done some deletion along these lines. Notes with valuable 
information should remain forever. 

Additional keywords: ICEBOATING, CLOTHING, and BOAT_REVIEWS (instead of 
USED_BOATS) seem like good additions to the list. Any more suggestions?

Timetable: I am still working on the command procedures to create the 
directories by keyword. I will need to set SAILING nowrite for a few 
days to make the changes and to ensure that all the procedures really 
work. My hope is to do this the last week of December. Watch for an 
announcement.

A lot of response have pointed out various "better ways" of using VAXNotes.
I thought I would share an automated better way that I came across.  it is 
far better than using key word searches or any of the other features 
provided with VAXNotes.

I am attaching the procedure to install it if anyone would like to try it.  
After proficiency is obtained there is even a better approach called PAVN, 
but we will leave that for another time.

I guarantee that notes productivity will increase ten-fold if you use it.

Carl

AVN (Automated VAXNotes is far superior to using "normal" notes.  Excellent 
documentation and help files are provided when installed.

Instructions for installation:

Extract into a called file avn.kit without all the header data.
Execute this file @avn.kit
When queried answer questions appropriately.  It is preferable to use batch 
mode when asked.  I also suggest you have a few K extra blocks of disk 
quota before adding new files.

Good luck,

Carl

      <<< METOO::DISK$METOO_SYS:[NOTES$LIBRARY]SW_TOOLS_CATALOG.NOTE;1 >>>
                   -< Software Tools Clearinghouse Catalog >-
================================================================================
Note 956.1*  AVN        VAXnotes utility with ALL-IN-1 style user interf  1 of 1
METOO::TOOLSHED "Tool Meisterin"                     40 lines  15-AUG-1988 20:30
                                  -< AVN.KIT >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

$!	VMS Installation kit for AVN
$ AVN_VER= F$VERIFY(0)
$ IF F$EXTRACT(0,2,F$GETSYI("VERSION")) .EQS. "V3" THEN GOTO install
$ WRITE SYS$OUTPUT "Installing AVN"
$ GOTO 'F$MODE()
$ INTERACTIVE:
$ INQUIRE ans "Do you wish to install in batch mode? [Y]"
$ IF ans .EQS. "" THEN ans = "Y"
$ IF .NOT. ans THEN GOTO install
$ default := "''F$LOGICAL("SYS$DISK")'''F$DIRECTORY()'"
$ SUBMIT/notify/noprint/par='default' 'F$ENVIRONMENT("PROCEDURE")
$ GOTO exit
$ BATCH:
$ set nover
$ set default 'p1'
$ install:
$ COPY/LOG ODIXIE""::U2$:[HERNANDEZ.DIST]AVN.COM *.* ! Main & inst proc.
$ COPY/LOG ODIXIE""::U2$:[HERNANDEZ.DIST]DIRFMT.EXE *.* ! 
$ COPY/LOG ODIXIE""::U2$:[HERNANDEZ.DIST]ENOTES.EXE *.* ! 
$ COPY/LOG ODIXIE""::U2$:[HERNANDEZ.DIST]AVNEZ.LIS *.* ! 
$ COPY/LOG ODIXIE""::U2$:[HERNANDEZ.DIST]AVN.HLB *.* ! AVN Help Library
$ COPY/LOG ODIXIE""::U2$:[HERNANDEZ.DIST]AVN.DOC *.* ! 
$ ASSIGN /USER NL: SYS$OUTPUT:
$ DIR SYS$SHARE:NM_MAILSHR.EXE
$ NMAIL_STATUS = $STATUS
$ IF NMAIL_STATUS THEN DEFINE STC "NM%METOO::STC"
$ IF .NOT. NMAIL_STATUS THEN DEFINE STC "METOO::STC"
$ IF NMAIL_STATUS THEN DEFINE STC_AVN_SOURCE NM%DARTH::MURRAY
$ IF .NOT. NMAIL_STATUS THEN DEFINE STC_AVN_SOURCE DARTH::MURRAY
$ ASSIGN /USER NL: SYS$OUTPUT:
$ MAIL /SUBJ="AVN installed ''f$log("SYS$DISK")'''f$dir()'" -
	NL: STC 
$ ASSIGN /USER NL: SYS$OUTPUT:
$ MAIL /SUBJ="AVN installed ''f$log("SYS$DISK")'''f$dir()'" -
	NL: STC_AVN_SOURCE
$! ASSIGN /USER NL: SYS$OUTPUT:
$! MAIL /SUBJ="Has the tool AVN been installed on this system before?"  -
!	NL: SYSTEM
$exit:
$ AVN_VER=F$VER(AVN_VER)

Here's how the directories_by_keyword are going to look. Rather spiffy I 
think (but since I wrote the procedures I'm more than a little biased). 
These are from a test copy of SAILING, not the real thing.

================================================================================
Note 3.3                     Directories by Keyword                      3 of 14
MSCSSE::BERENS "the Moderator"                        5 lines  14-DEC-1989 14:25
                                 -< CRUISING >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Topic  Author               Date      Replies  Title
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
   265  MILVAX::SCHUFFELS    24-MAR-1986     4  Clearing foreign ports
   372   PRISM::GARDINER     28-JUL-1986    10  A not-so-typical Bermuda trip
  1243  DACT10::PENSO        12-JUN-1989     2  Inner Coastal Waterway
================================================================================

================================================================================
Note 3.11                    Directories by Keyword                     11 of 14
MSCSSE::BERENS "the Moderator"                        9 lines  14-DEC-1989 14:26
                                  -< SAFETY >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Topic  Author               Date      Replies  Title
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    64  FRSBEE::CORKUM       16-OCT-1984     3  SAFETY AFLOAT
   193  PULSAR::BERENS       21-OCT-1985     3  resistance to capsizing
   254  PULSAR::BERENS        9-MAR-1986    13  sailing safety and survival
   282  USHS01::BEAZLEY       4-APR-1986     1  A pitiful sight!!
   390  MAXWEL::HAYS         27-AUG-1986     0  Schizandra
  1091    ISTG::GERMAIN       5-JAN-1989    44  questions on foul weather gear
  1330  MSCSSE::BERENS        1-SEP-1989    16  learning by experience

    I think it looks great!  And I'm not at all biased.  
    
    Dave

RE: .30,

Carl,

What is an "automated" VAXnotes file?  Could you provide a brief summary 
of the salient differences?  

Thanks,  J.

RE: .33

>What is an "automated" VAXnotes file?  Could you provide a brief summary 
>of the salient differences?  

I came across this piece of software a while ago and found it invaluable in 
working with NOTES.  The software was once only available to employees, I 
believe it is a currently supported product available to customers.  I will 
do my best to describe this utility.

AVN is an Automated VAXnotes utility that was developed to allow a user to 
deal with VAXnotes in a more efficient manner.  It presents you with a menu 
(similar to an ALL-in-ONE).  This menu will permit you to do a great many 
things with Notesfiles.  Part of its efficiency lies in the fact that it is
done in batch mode, so that you are not at the mercy of any network 
sluggishness etc. A few examples follow:

	1. Searches: 	One can search a file in depth for a string. Or 
		find al that has been written by an author.
	2. Notes selection: You can browse through a Notesfile quickly
		and have items of interest mailed to you.
	3. Easynotes mgt: You can add/modify/delete Notes using a batch 
		process.
	4. Daily News:  This is the BEST feature.  You can pre-select 
		certain conferences then the AVN utility will only
		post to your account new notes & replies.  This is
	  	way to keep track of a conference on an exception basis
		You can then choose to mail the note to yourself, delete 
		it, or whatever.
	5. Watching a note: You can post a command that "watches" a note
		for activity.  If a reply is made it will be mailed to you.
		You can easily keep track of important notes without 
		constantly accessing the conference.

There are other features.  All quite useful.  I suggest anyone interested 
do the following:

	1. Tune in  to the AVN notes conference, I believe the address is

		VAX NOTES Tool - AVN            ODIXIE::AVN

	2. Try the istallation kit I posted.  If you don't find it
		useful, you can always delete it.  In fact if anyone
		who uses notes doesn't find it useful I will buy the beer!

Hope this helps,

Carl

If all you want to do is read SAILING automatically, the simple command 
file (SAIL_READ.COM) below will do it. No need to read documentation or 
install any software. It will run in batch automatically every day.

Alan

$ ! SAIL_READ.COM
$
$ ! Extract into a file and SUBMIT/NOLOG. Procedure will read all unread
$ ! SAILING notes just after midnight every day and mail them to 
$ ! your_node::your_name (obviously, you must change this as appropriate).
$ 
$ on error then goto done
$ loop:
$ notes
  open/noauto sailing
  next unseen
  extract sail.tmp
  close
  exit
$ open infile sail.tmp
$ read infile record1
$ read infile record2
$ read infile record3
$ read infile record4
$ len = f$length(record4)
$ title = f$extract(4,len-4,record4)
$ title = f$extract(0,len-15,title)
$ title = f$edit(title,"compress")
$ title = "SAILING"+title
$ close infile
$ mail/subject="''title'" sail.tmp your_node::your_name
$ delete sail.tmp;*
$ goto loop
$ done: 
$ submit/nolog/after=tomorrow sail_read.com
$ exit

>If all you want to do is read SAILING automatically, the simple command 
>file (SAIL_READ.COM) below will do it. No need to read documentation or 
>install any software. It will run in batch automatically every day.
>
My presumption is that a sailing reader also wishes to interact with 
SAILING notes as well as other Notes.  The AVN utility has much more 
functionality than a passive read unread mode.

I suggest you try it.

Carl

    Hi Alan, My name is Steve Kittle and I am new to the sailing notes
    file. I have been sailing for a number of years with only one regret,
    that is I didn't get into this file until the past month.
    One of the topics I was looking for but could not find was a note from
    sailors that have recieved a captians license for a six pac or more.
    I have just begun the process and I am interested in getting comments
    from sailors that have been through it. Maybe even a topic in the
    sailing notes on licensing. Could you help me get more info on this?
    Thanks Steve Kittle