Conference unifix::sailing

re .0:

Since Cape Dory is still in business, the first step in the repair process 
should be to call them and ask how to repair your rudder. Also ask how the 
rudder is made -- specifically, how is the rudder attached to the rudder post?

My initial reaction to your proposed repair is that it is the right idea, but 
that only two or three layers of fiberglass won't be nearly strong enough. 
After all, rudders are fairly critical components. I'd remove the rudder from 
the boat and grind away all of the old fiberglass surrounding the rudder post. 
At a guess, I'd expect this to be an eighth of an inch or so. Then proceed as 
you suggest, building up the layers of glass to a thickness equal to the 
original. I'd use epoxy simply because it is much more pleasant to work with
(less hazardous, too). 

RE: .0, 

Depending on how you value your time and assess your 'glassing skills, it 
might be worth checking with the builder to find out if they would sell 
the appropriate rudder parts and for how much.  Sometimes one can be 
surprised at the results -- they may value a customer service reputation, 
want to keep old boats competitive sailors, or even have no idea how much 
to charge and thus figure only minimal costs.  

Depending on rudder construction, this might be cost effective.  If they 
will only sell a rudder post and blade assembly, that may not be worth it.
At the least you might get some technical advice out of them! 

J.

    When you get the construction details from Cape Dory, you may want
    to grind enough old glass away to inpect the rudder skeleton.  This
    can be rods or barstock welded to the post or even a metal space
    frame in the case of some thick foil section rudders.  These welds
    have been known to corrode and fracture causing an embarrassing
    discontinuity between the post and the rest of the rudder.
    
    In any event, there is usually something more than just the glass
    you see around the rudder post holding the rest of the rudder to
    it.  The points at which the rudder body is attached to the skeleton
    have perhaps failed.  If this has happened, there will be some time
    consuming rebuilding that will have to be done to restore integrity.
    
    - gene
    

    re: .1 .2 and .3
    
    3 home runs on this one.
    
    I checked with CD about the problem.  Spoke with Ed Correia who
    works in the manufacturing process and is very familiar with the
    problem I have found.
    
    Turns out that they fix the blade to the shaft using multiple layers
    of glass coth.  They also have experienced broken brazing points
    between the shaft and the stiffeners that extend out into the blade
    itself - not often (a Cape Dory, afterall :-)) but enough to suggest
    some remedies.
    
    THey will sell a new rudder @$405.68, but I think my time and materials
    would be less unless there is a fracture as Gene suggested.  Ed
    offered some suggestions as to how to get the rudder off, a major
    effort (inasmuch as the boat is now in a cradle, on a trailer in
    my backyard).  This sounds like a no-fun operation involving
    the removal of the lower gudgeon and jacking/hoisting the boat to
    allow about 2' clearance.
    
    He is sending the prints and some additional information to the
    house (could have faxed it if needed).  In all a very informative
    discussion - thanks Alan.
    
    Many people are aware that Typhoons are no longer in production
    because of perceived diminished demand.  Now there is growing pressure
    from sailors who had moved up to 32-35' boats and are now moving back
    downwards as the family grows and goes.   Molds are now owned by
    Robin Hood Marine center in Maine.

    Ron,
    
    Had occasion to do this job a few times, and offer the following:
    
    Do you have any side-to-side play in the rudder blade?  If so, this
    indicates that the brazing of the stiffener straps has broken, in which
    case that $400+/- bill might not be the most expensive alternative.  If
    not, you probably have the problem that plagued more than a few of the
    Typhoons and other earlier Cape Dory's (due to rudder structure
    design/mfg shortcomings).
    
    The fact that you already have vertical play indicates that you have no
    adhesion of the blade to the straps, or alternately the straps to the
    post, so the connection to the post is not the only issue.  You will 
    still have strap play (i.e., ALL the stress will be translated only 
    to the post connection) if you glass only the post section.
    
    Although a PITA job, jacking up the cradle and removing the rudder is a
    relatively simple task with a decent jack and 16 or so concrete blocks.
    The tiller head and definitely the gudgeon are not so, especially since
    the boat has some age on it.  The head may require some heat and the
    gudgeon a sturdy 1/2" drill with appropriate bit(s) for drilling out
    pins (careful of drift).
    
    Once removed, you will want to dig out enough glass to inspect welds of
    stiffeners on aft edge of post.  If broken, take cheap route and buy
    new rudder.  If not, check for vertical play of blade to stiffeners.
    
    If play more than 1/4" or so, drill into blade at diagonal on either
    side (both) of upper and lower stiffener sections and fill cavities
    from where blade has been working with epoxy.  Once set, then do
    blade/post connection as per CD instructions.
    
    The prints CD sends may cite construction method as to whether rudder
    is two piece sandwich or one piece molded, and may have inset to
    illustrate method of glassing sides of blade to stiffener.  Look
    carefully at this, as this tells you whether you will be adding epoxy
    only to stiffener sections or filling entire rudder cavity.  You could
    spend $50 in epoxy filling cavity alone.
    
    Since Cape Dory started as a small home garage company, many of the
    early boats might not have exactly followed prints or methods (some
    built recently don't!), so be prepared to reason the situation out 
    and dig deep enough to be sure of what you're dealing with.  I don't
    think Ed was there in the early days, and while entirely well-inten-
    tioned, may not really know in each and every case.
    
    By the way, has the boat been grounded so as to obstruct rudder play?
    These rudders are designed and built for lateral strength, not
    vertical, so entire blade may have moved vertically and bent stiffeners
    as well as fracturing glass.
    
    If you have the time, minor repair/reglassing is the way to go, but it
    still doesn't take long to spend $400 end still end up with a repaired
    rudder vs new.
    
    Good luck, 
    
    Roger
    

Why jack the boat up? unless you are sittitng on concrete its eaiser to dig
a hole under the rudder. It only needs to be deep enough to clear the shaft,
and the height of the boat on the cradle or trailer helps.

    I have a different rudder problem.
    
    My C + C 29 has an exposed rudder, under the boat.  The rudder post
    comes up through a trunk under the cockpit then up to the cockpit sole
    where it dead-ends.  The bearing surface for the rudder is a bracket
    which is bolted onto the top front surface of the rudder stock, riding
    on a block which is attached to cockpit sole.  The weight of the rudder
    is (supposed to be) supported by two 5/16 X 18 stainless bolts which
    attach the bracket to the rudder stock.
    
    Both of my bolts sheared.  First one, then the other.  Fortunately this
    happened as the season was scheduled to end.
    
    The bolts have two hash marks on them, indicating a hardness grade.  I
    know I can get bolts of a higher grade.  My question is, when bolts go
    up in grade does the shear strength increase, or the tensile strength
    or both.  Obviously I would like to find something with more shear
    strength.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Dave 
    
    
    

re .7:

Yes, both tensile and shear strength increase as bolt grade increases. Finding
higher grade stainless steel bolts may be a bit of a problem. Alternately, is
it possible to use additional bolts? Using four instead of two would double
the strength. Or, is it possible to drill out the bolt holes and use 3/8 or 1/2
inch bolts (1.44 and 2.56 times as strong using the same grade bolts as at
present)? One more thought: Bolts often shear at the bottom of a thread (the 
diameter is a minimum here). Is the shear load applied across the bolt 
threads? If so, buying long bolts and cutting off most of the threaded length 
so that the load is applied across unthreaded parts of the bolt might help 
too.

Did the bolts shear from normal sailing stresses or were they weakened
in a grounding? If the latter, sheared bolts may be a better failure mode
than ripping the rudder to pieces or ripping glass out of your hull.

As usual, "ask the manufacturer" is good advice...

--RS

    A.B., Thanks for clarifying the increase in strength.   I'll
    investigate the posibility of going to larger hardware.
    
    -1, The failure occurred as a result of normal use.  No grounding.  The
    keel is a couple of feet deeper than the rudder.  I talked to folks at
    C + C last week.  They didn't say this is a normal occurance, but they
    also didn't leave me with the inpression they have never seen/heard of
    this phenomon before.
    
    Thanks for the suggestions.
    
    djc
    

    For those interested, an update on the rudder:
    
    I ground a bit of the blade away from the shaft to inspect the
    stiffeners in the blade.  Gene, you had it right!  First stiffener
    down was broken at the brazing point.  All others seem ok.
    
    With that information, I decided to remove the rudder for repair
    in the workshop rather than outside on the boat.  (Gee, it's handy
    having the boat in the back yard with all sorts of tools within
    20' and all sorts of available time and help.)
    
    Removal was wicked simple.  Found three pins thrugh the gudgeon
    and simply drove them out with a drift pin.  Cut a hole through
    the plywood trailer platform for the blade to drop through, removed
    the tiller head on the rudder stock and out it came.
    
    Working on this boat is a great deal simpler than I thought it would
    be - witness the rebuilding of the mast and the repairing of the
    hull - for a guy is who is not particularly handy.  Stepping back
    from the job and sensing that it got fixed has to be one of
    the real thrills of boating.
    
    Thanks for the advice.
    
    Ron
    

    Update on the C + C rudder.
    
    Removed the rudder from the boat over the long weekend.  That sucker is
    heavy.  The shaft is solid stainless, about an inch and a quarter in
    diameter.
    
    Following Alan's suggestions, I am having the rudder drilled and tapped for
    3/8 in bolts.  Will be using one shouldered boat and one bolt threaded
    to the top, due to interference with the emergency tiller attachment if
    I try use two long bolts.  Using the same grade hardware to avoid
    brittleness or other new wildcards which I might introduce with too
    many changes at one time.  Also having a collar made to go around the
    rudder shaft just above the rudder trunk to act as a keeper if I
    experience a similar problem in the future.  The collar will be made in
    two halfs, bolted together then attached to two dimples which will be
    drilled into the shaft.
    
    Thanks for the help and suggestions.
    
    djc
       

    While we are on the subject of rudder repair....
    
    I am in the process of repairing the rudder on my O'Day 28. I have
    experienced some rusty "weeping" about 1/3 of the way up the flat
    portion of the rudder blade around what appears to be a surface
    "star" crack. 
    
    I have, after receiving numerous suggestions on repairing the problem,
    drilled an approx. 1/8 inch diameter x 1 1/2 inch deep drainage hole
    in the bottom of the rudder in the hopes of draining any accumulated
    water. By the way, this was done PRIOR to our current deep freeze.
    
    
    Anyway, no luck on getting any water. So, I want to call the "builder"
    to find out how the rudder was mfg and obtain further advice on
    how to proceed. So, since O'Day has bit the dust and Pearson has
    purchased the molds, I guess they are the ones to call. 
    
    Anyone have the phone number/address for Pearson ?????
    

    JC
    
    

    Answer for -1
    
    From the NYNEX Boaters Direstory,
    Pearson Yachts Corp.
    W. Shore Rd., Portsmouth R. I   
    401-683-0114
    
    djc
    

    The latest and greatest # for Pearson Yachts.....
    
    401-683-0100  ext 1 for Customer Service
    
    
    JC
    

    Anyone have a current number for Pearson  reply .15 used to do an answering
    machine, but even that doesn't work anymore.
    
    I am looking for technical information on one of their boats.
    
    D&R Marine  (508) 683-0100 still has parts, but doesn't know who is
    the technical guru.
    
    thanks
    
    john

re .last:

Pearson is history and their assets long since sold to the highest 
bidder.

    Try calling a (ex) dealer like Wells Yachts in M'hd and asking them.
    
    Or Tillotson-Pearson, the fiberglass contractor in RI who may have done
    the actual hull layup.
    
    Or the Boston Harbor Sailing Club where you may get an answer,
    runaround, or further contact.

    John,
    
    If you're looking for rudder bushings, I think I have a spare or two in
    my garage - that's all you need to take some slop out of the tiller if
    that's what you wanting to do.
    
    	Regards,
    
    	Ron
    ]

    Actually, I replied in here only because the Pearson Phone numbers
    were here. What I am looking for are owner manuals, schematics etc. 
    
    My first task is to plumb in a holding tank for the head. I have a good
    idea of what I need, but would like to talk to a factory person to 
    see if my idea is the best way to go.
    
    If anyone has the phone number or address for the Pearson Owners club,
    that may put me on the right trail.
    
    (Ok, the cat is out of the bag, I'm the new owner of Ying Yang, I've
    decided to try out a monohull, as the wife wasn't getting any closer
    to getting on a catamaran. There goes my BOD job on the local Hobie
    Fleet). 
    
       Regards
    
        john