Conference unifix::sailing

My impression is that the river and tidal currents run strong in Newburyport 
-- the Merrimack River bar is one of the worst in the country in the wrong 
weather. A 5 hp engine might not be enough to cope some or much of the time.

That aside, a 23' boat needs to be sailed very cautiously on the ocean. It 
just isn't big enough to be safe in unsheltered waters (eg, off Newburyport) 
in other than light winds and relatively calm seas. As has been said before in 
these notes, take leassons first and learn more about sailing before buying a 
boat. There are a number notes in SAILING that discuss the training available.
Then, too, Hunters do not have the reputation of being well-built, strong 
boats.

    I agree with Alan.  The Hunter's tend to be underpowered.  We had
    a 27 with an inboard that barely pushed against the current when
    going upriver against an outbound tide.  We came real close to hitting
    a drawbridge once.
    
    The fact that the boat is a 1987 and not been used in the ocean
    is in your favor.  Our Hunter had problems with metal fatigue but
    it was over 5 years old when we had problems.  (The rudder snapped
    - off Newburyport in gale force winds. Thank God for the Coast Guard!!)
    
    It is true the boat is small.  Spend some time talking to people
    who sail out of Newburyport and see what they think.
    
    Good Luck!
    
    Marilyn
    Emotional Rescue
    30 ft Cape Dory - great boat - sturdy and seaworthy!!!!
    

    I'm not sure I agree about 22 foot not being big enough to go the Isles
    of Shoals or whatever. We had a Tanzer 22 for a few years and had no
    problems going from Gloucester thru Cape Cod canal and out into
    Buzzards bay with 25Kt winds, 6 foot chop and all. Admittedly it's
    more comfortabel and ultimately probably safer in a bigger boat, and
    the Tanzer is pretty sturdy. As for the engine, if it'll get you to
    hull speed for a while, what's the problem.
    
    The price sounds pretty good. He'll probably take even less. We bought
    a new boat recently (used boat), and found the Buck book prices to be
    10-20% on the high side. 
    
    Find someone with access to a Buck book and get them to look it up.
    
    

	 I sailed into Newburyport a few years ago in a Catalina 30...  I
would not want to base any boat there...  Almost got swamped in the channel
by sport fisherman doing 10+ knots when I was trying to leave...  As to engine
size, hull speed on a flat calm and hull speed into a thunderstorm 
(or heavy swells) are two different things, and the difference is particularly
relevent for Newburyport... I needed a lot of my 30 HP to get out, but I can
hull speed with a fraction of it (12 hp engines have been used in Catalina 30's) 

	The question is, What are you looking for??? If you can only afford a
20-24' boat, you are probably better off somewhere like Salem harbor...  You
can learn in the somewhat protected inner and outer harbors with lot's of islands
and interesting harbors to visit (Marblehead, Beverly, Manchester)...  And you
have access to open water as you feel more comfortable with the boat and your
skills.... 

	I think the answer to your question "Is this a good deal" is that it
is not so good a deal that you should not pass it up...  Boats in that size
range are generally available for about that price....  Pay attention to the
metal fatigue comment...  An 87 is has three seasons on it now...  Buy a copy
of SAIL and look at the prices in there (they have a used boat section - or
is that Cruising World? - whichever, the blue pages)  I personally would not
feel that the price is good enough to buy without looking quite a bit first...


Steve

    This may or may not be a good price for that boat, but even if it's a
    super price, you've got until next June to find another super deal, and
    with the used boat market the way it is, you'll probably be able to do
    just that.  Spend some time looking around and learning.
    
    As to whether a 23' boat is big enough to be safe in unsheltered ocean
    waters, I'd say that it depends on the boat.  Some are as safe as
    larger boats, some aren't.  I don't think length-over-all is the first
    criteria on seaworthiness.
    
    Likewise, I do not think metal fatigue should be a factor in a 3 year
    old (or 5 year old) boat (unless it's been sailed around the world!). 
    More likely to be the cause of rudder failure is skimping on the
    hardware, or poor construction, or both.  You might want to consider
    boats that have good reputations for strength of construction.
    
    Good luck in your search.  Keep reading, looking and talking to
    boatowners.
    
    Travis Belton

    I know nothing in particular about the boat you mention in your
    note.    I do have some experience with Newburyport/Merrimack river
    though.  My advice to you is to get a bigger boat and or one with
    more power.    Bigger is not automatically better but it has distinct
    advantages in the Merrimack.
    
    This weekend with winds in the high teens, from offshore and WITH
    the tide, we still had a capsize in the river mouth.   These were
    not very bad conditions as they go here.   What happens with an
    underpowered outboard mounted engine is that you will often find
    yourself going 5 knots against a five knot current (0 knots over
    the bottom) in very confused seas.   The seas can be 1 to 4 feet
    on good days and they are occasionally made worse by thoughtless
    power boaters (not all of them are thoughtless, but enough to be
    tedious).   Low over the bottom speeds mean you are subjected to
    this for a very long time.   I have a 38 foot boat with 25 horsepower
    inboard and it's not uncommon for me to be in this slop for 30 to
    40 minutes.

    I have seen outboards take a breaking wave and die.  I also see
    many boats of the type you are contemplating taking 35 degree rolls 
    at frightening repetition rates.    It can certainly be done but
    I wouldn't want to learn under these conditions.   What really makes
    Newburyport dangerous for the small boat sailor is that it is isolated.
    Once you leave the river you are looking at three hours or more
    to get to any other harbor.   You should have a boat big enough
    to get you there because often it won't be advisable to brave the
    river mouth to seek refuge and it sometimes happens that the mouth
    is like a one way only door.    You could get snared by the current,
    find yourself literally catapulted to the Atlantic only to find
    that you aren't comfortable and would like to turn around.
    
    Of course if you live in the area and have enough patience you can
    play the tides, 'rush hour' and weather such that you won't have
    problems but this is a lot of variables to shuffle and it will limit
    your learning time pretty dramatically.   
    
    One option you might consider is to spend half of that on a smaller
    boat and use it in the (big) river only.    With shoal draft you
    have a big area to learn in and you can explore the edges, keeping
    out of the deep and fast running channel.   You'd be learning a
    lot with low risk and you could still occasionally go 'outside'
    when conditions are ideal.    There are a lot of Cape Dory Typhoons
    in the area and they would seem to be great learning platforms at
    4-6 k.
    
        
    

    Bigger is better when heading for the open water, for one thing
    you will stay alot drier. On top of the lenght, you can do alot
    better than buying a Hunter. the boat is very light, has alot of
    freeboard, (gets pushed around by winds), and is very dipy. Resale
    values are poor, workmentship is marginal. I suggest you find an
    older, heavier, better made, with and inboard.