Conference unifix::sailing

    Corporations can support race boats.  The Whitbread boats are all
    sponsored.  Just depends on the race and whether it allows corporate
    sponsorship or not.  Many don't because some competition is supposed
    to be corinthian, still.  Don't think I'd feel comfortable racing
    against a boat with the deep pockets of sponsorship.
    
    Some regattas have two divisions, one allowing adverts and one not.
    I personally took offense with the logos on any America's Cup boat.
    But that was a nit compared to the offense of the whole event.
    
    Note also that real Formula 40 racing takes place mainly in Europe
    which has a longer tradition of pasting logos onto anything racy.
    Also note that it was begun in Europe where tax laws make it very
    difficult for individuals to campaign a sizable boat what with 
    luxury taxes and the like.  Corporate sponsorship has been much
    debated and I'm certain it will grow.  I don't share your enthusiasm
    for it.
    
    Dave

    Re .1 comment on America's Cup - Perhaps it's not the money as much
    as the type of people the money attracts and the lengths they're
    willing to go to get a little publicity (and make more money and
    get more publicity...)  I personally find it offensive being
    represented (as U.S. citizen) by a person of questionable standards
    backed by others of questionable standards.  Money may have bought
    them notoriety, but class and dignity they couldn't buy.
    
    No question that in some respects adverts are good for the sport,
    because they can support research and the exposure of this lovely
    pastime to a wider audience.  Unfortunately, increased exposure
    can bring in not only those who love the sport, but also the pay-to-
    win folks, who, to me, pervert the essence of what most of us are
    trying to accomplish.
    
    There are those of us who remember a time when there was one-design
    racing where the lead was determined by skipper skill, crew training,
    and how well the boat was maintained.  The equipment was all pretty
    much the same.  In cruising class, the rules were simpler, the fleets
    more diverse, and the technology ($$$) gap less wide. 
                                                         
    I personally remember Handicap races in which there was not a single
    protest, and cruising races in which a Raven might be racing in
    the same fleet with the newest C & C hot rod.  Frequently, the hot
    rod was embarrassed by some good sailor in the boat he/she'd had
    for ten years.  There were few "professional" sailors, but proportion-
    ally many competent ones.
    
    I stopped racing when $1/4 million boats started showing up at the
    line skippered by people who never learned to row, but had all the
    latest equipment and designer clothes.  I saw more collisions in
    two years than I had seen in the previous twenty.  I saw boats pro-
    testing each other rather than practicing the skills to avoid viola-
    tions.  I saw the $1/4 million boats replaced after one season because
    the skipper couldn't win, and the $1/2 million replacements invariab-
    ly didn't either.  Minor collisions which used to be resolved over
    a beer and a handshake were handled through large insurance premium
    increases or in courts.  Call it corny, but members of the fleet
    were no longer friends, and not necessarily competent.
    
    I can't help feeling that perhaps money (and the easy/cheap availa- 
    bility of it) had something to do with all of this, and the America's
    Cup is typical of what has happened to racing and the sport of sailing
    as a result.
    
    Keep advertising, but keep it in its place.  Perhaps it is significant
    that one of the thrusts of advertising is to get people to buy
    something they may not even need, and to discard something useful
    for something newer or more chic.
    
    
                                                         

re .2:

Do we really need more sailors and boats? Harbors and marinas are full 
to overflowing now, and more boats will only increase the cost and 
hassle of ownership. Otherwise, I agree with you.

    re .3:
    
    Philosophically, everyone should have access to what you and I have
    learned to love and respect.
    
    Practically, you're right.  I fear the day that I can no longer
    legally maintain the right to own and keep up the mooring I dropped in
    thirty years ago because the authorities need to control the number
    and size of boats moored in a certain place, and can't trust people
    to keep up their own property and respect that of others.  It is
    still worth the increasing hassle, but I wonder for how long...

    RE .2 and .3
    
    I am not a participant in your sport, and don't know if I ever will
    be.  I have seen the attitude of "Why do we NEED more people, they
    only bring trouble" in other endeavors.  In these areas, and in
    sailing, this attitude is very short sighted.
    
    Forgeting the fact that if newcommers are not attracted the sport
    will die out as the current participants pass on.  Even ignoring
    the market newcomers provide for the conversion of current equipment
    into cash so that you people can upgrade.  I think newcomers are
    a must.
    
    The forces that be (read: "crooks in politics") make there decisions
    concerning regulations based on one thing.  Power.  Political power
    comes from growth, not stagnation.  Votes today, and more votes
    tomorrow.  Not the 'same professional petitioners' year in year
    out.
    
    The risk of fast growth is strong regulations that aim at restricting
    growth.  The risk of stagnation is the same.  The difference is
    that if your hobby does not look like a political force to be reconed
    with, the regulations will give the public resources to more useful
    (in terms of gaining political power) endeavors.  Maybe power boaters,
    or swimmers, or beach lovers; you name it, it really doesn't matter.
    
    You are a great political target.  You are seen as rich and eletist,
    it doesn't matter that these perceptions are false generalizations.
    If the numbers were smaller these perceptions would get stronger.
    When/if that happens you will get no sympathy from the public.
    Then you would be a great target in the "DRUG WAR".  We could 
    eliminate all Ocean Boating to prevent "smuggling", of course it
    wouldn't work, but who would complain?  The goal is good.  We could
    get all of you, not just the oncompitent, out of our busy harbors
    to allow safer comercial usage, who would complain.
    
    Oh well, I've said my piece.  Just think about it.  Commercialism
    might seem bad, but it at least provides "good" visability instead
    of the Nightly Newses drugs and drownings.  
    
    -Joe

	Digital in Sweden is sponsoring the Swedish "Whitbread Around
	The World" entry. So the corporate logo will be seen on that
	maxi - along with the other sponsors'.

	For the sponsorer it's just a decision of how to spend money on
	getting publicity. For the racer it is the only way to fund the
	participation. So I guess the "Whitbread Around The World" race is
	two things 1) a well run advertising campaign and 2) a sailing race.

	In Finland the sponsors in the previous Whitbreads were so happy
	with their money spent that now three (3) skippers have managed to get
	sponsors for entries in this race. The costs per project - the boats
	are all maxis - are up to 10 M$ and it's all covered by the various
	sponsors.

    Re .5
    
    I can't speak for Alan, but I don't think the issue is more people
    or the infusion of new blood, which is generally a healthy aspect
    of growth under the right circumstances.
    
    There have always been newcomers to sailing and always will be.
    The issue is the necessary compromise of the sport by the factor
    of UNCONTROLLED growth (you use the word "restricting").  If you
    understand growth as a feature of demand, you don't have to look
    very far to understand the ramifications.  The U.S. auto industry
    is still struggling to recover from the quality implications of
    easy demand, and we are seeing a healthy tightening in the computer
    industry as demand becomes more retrospective.  Demand, which, by
    the way, advertising is supposed to stimulate, creates the oppor-
    tunity to water down or poison apple juice, or take other short
    cuts with other products, and control is eventually required to
    keep the low end of the spectrum from dominating.
    
    What frenzied demand has done to the sailing industry is to compro-
    mise the quality at one end of the spectrum as well as increase
    it at the other.  The new technologies, materials, etc. (increased
    quality) are good.  I would disagree that cheap, poorly made boats,
    decreasing safety under way, and the destruction of the environment
    (increased plastic/non-biodegradable flotsam, beachfront incursions,
    bilge-oil slicks, etc.) are also good.  I also don't view it as
    healthy that insurance premiums are spiralling because the competency
    level of the general sailing public is decreasing and leading to
    increased risk for those of us who seriously spent the time necessary
    to become competent.  (Anyone who believes two days at Steve Colgate's
    Sailing School makes one competent is a danger to him/herself and
    everyone around him/her - but the ads would have you believe otherwise)
    It is control that allows one to maintain balance.
                        
    In regard to being seen as "Rich and Elitist", my guess is that
    much of the increased demand is a direct result of that image, as
    there have always been the pretenders who would like to be, through
    emulation - just like the powerful (the ones who will pay $200 for
    a $20 Hong Kong watch because it looks like a $2000 European watch). 
    
    By the way, it is the "rich and elitist" who started the America's
    Cup and kept it going for many decades, at the same time creating
    technological advancement through private subscription.  Read up
    on the history of the Cup and the yachts it created some time. 
    Next time you go to a museum, a theater, a musical performance or
    other fine arts example, write your thank you letter to the "Rich
    and Elitist", since they are probably the ones who are funding it.
    Don't fool yourself that your $5 admission covers all the cost.
    
    In regard to "good" visibility, if the most recent America's Cup is
    an example, we are in real trouble.  We are teaching our children
    that poor sportsmanship, public drunkenness, circumvention of the
    spirit as well as the letter of the law, and failure to pay one's
    debts are all acceptable.  We are also teaching the rest of the
    world that Americans have no dignity.   Pepsi could care less what
    happens as long as people buy its product.  
    
    As other noters have responded, Europeans have allowed advertising
    for some time, and it does not appear that they are experiencing
    such havoc as we are here in the states.  Perhaps there is some
    inherent control mechanism overseas that keeps it manageable (fewer
    very large sponsors available and hence less growth?), or perhaps 
    there is some other sociological explanation which differentiates 
    Europeans from us Americans.  Perhaps America's affluence makes us 
    take for granted what the Europeans have learned to appreciate.
    (Reply from Overseas?)
    
    Perhaps all of the above is accurate, or perhaps Alan and I are
    merely mourning the loss of an important aspect in our lives.  I
    can't help but think that some control would make it better for
    everyone.
    

     RE .7
    
        What 'havoc' is United States experiencing that Europe is not
    (in reference to sailing)?
    
       P.S. Well those nice rich people, isn't that real thoughtfull
    of them. I think i'll wash the windows on the next Rolls i see
    (just to show how thankful i really am). What a pile of B.S.!

    OK, John Papa,
    
    You started it, and have been very conspicuous by your absence !
    Why not wade right in and eat a few worms with the rest of us.
    
    Or is it your plot to distract monohullers so you multi's can take
    over the world with your wierd populist ideals ?
    
    By the way, if there's any truth to the rumor that your next grenade
    has to do with the laws pertaining to myopic jetskiing immigrants,
    
    DON'T DO IT !

    wow, what have I done?  I'm having trouble following the logic...
    
    I still don't see why race sail boats can't take on the look of
    indy cars.  A class seperation, sponsored boats as the pro class, and
    all others with no class(joke).  This could work, and what would be the
    harm?  a huge influx of used race machines for the private owners
    to buy up?  advances in technology?  generation of public interest?
    good training grounds for the new to the sport?  
    
    does this really mean the downfall of the world as we know it?
    
    I think not...				John Papa

    re: .9  -< J.PAPA WHERE ARE YOU? >-  I'm starting to ask myself
    just that, Los Angeles, California.  Now everyone is probally saying,
    "ah, so that explains it, California, I should have guessed, that
    boy has been in the sun too long, etc., etc., etc..."  and multi's,
    well I'm being trained by the best, but don't think I've turned
    my back on my birthplace(mono's), I've crewed on Blondie (Santa
    Cruz 70) and would again.  I've dragged lead up and down the coast,
    and to Catalina so many times there's a bar stool with my name on
    it at Isthmus.  anyway, the subject is Advertising, and here's my
    piece;  I'm tired of the yacht clubs, tired of the local maxi
    association, tired of owners attitudes, and most of all tired of
    the cost!  guess thats where part of the multi attraction is.  I'm
    just looking for options, besides "if it wasn't for sailing, I'd
    be drunk in a bar somewhere" (quote from Warren Seaman(drunk in
    a bar))
    					John Papa

    John,
    
    Unless I am mistaken, the purpose of your notes 1282,92 was to
    stimulate debate.  .9 was written to draw you into the conversation
    since you frequently have a worthwhile and thought-provoking
    perspective, and had not yet participated.
    
    Since debates assume the existence of opposite sides to the same
    issue, they can get heated and occasionally require a light moment
    to maintain everyone's perspective.  Hence the ridiculous image
    of multihullers taking over the world through disruption of a DEC
    Notes file, and your "no class(joke)" remark, which I think probably
    caught the essence of previous bait laid out on the file.
    
    I, for one, don't see the harm in your indy proposal per se except
    for the crowding at start lines and in small bodies of water, and
    the question of manpower to committee and spot for what could be
    several large fleets at a time and on a regular basis.  I am also
    not sure even used race machines would be in the financial reach
    of most private owners I know.  But I certainly respect your right
    to propose and pursue it, as long as you keep it on the West Coast
    where large unruly crowds don't bother people (red joke light is on !)
    
    Don't stop opening your cans of worms.  I and probably many others
    find them informative, thought provoking and occasionally fun. 
    Just be prepared to eat a few of them yourself, as instigator, when 
    the debate gets hot. 
    
    I understand they're best with salt. 
                                       
    Awaiting your next.

    Aye, there's the paradox (.11).
                                               
    Advertizing advances the technology and visibility of the sport,
    but...
    
    Advertizing also creates demand and makes people want to join yacht 
    clubs (in many places you HAVE to to get moorage), form Maxi Assn's,
    own boats, and do all the other things that advertizing says is
    fun, healthy and/or glamorous.  And supply side economics says demand
    also advances cost.  The difficulty is the invariable and imprecise
    choice between the good and the bad.
    
    Is the draw of multi's that they have not yet seen enough demand
    to drag along the disadvantages you feel so strongly ?  I am genuinely
    curious as to your insight just in case you're on to something (you'll
    note I resisted saying "ON something") that we monohullers are not
    aware of.
    
    

    I'm not sure what the situation is Stateside, but here in the UK,
    the success of advertising in sailing has a lot to do with the way
    it has been implemented.
    
    There are basically two different ways in which advertising is allowed,
    one where the event is sponsored, and all competitors carry the
    sponors adverts, and the other, where the competitors are allowed
    to carry individual adverts.
    
    The important thing about the second option, is that it only happens
    at the very highest level ( i.e. Whitbread, Admirals Cup, Formula
    40's ) and where these races are run in parallel with a non-sponsored
    fleet ( i.e. the Fastnet race ) those boats that are sponsored race for
    a different set of prizes. In such events, the main prizes go to
    the non-sponsored boats. Attempts to set up an "Open" division in
    other offshore races, has not had much success.
    
    The effect of this, is that if you NEED big money to do well in
    an event, you can get it, but otherwise the rest of us can avoid
    the arms race, and just get on with enjoying our racing.
    
    How does this compare with the U.S. situation. ??
    
    Chris.
    
          

	Even though I cannot claim that Finland represents mainstream Europe,
	I'll report on the situation in Scandinavia....

	The new 1989-1992 IYRC Racing rules contain some modifications as
	regards advertising. These rules have been applied to a small number
	of "high-visibility" races to give the sponsors some return on their
	money. These races are normally IOR-based (IMS is coming on strong
	also). Also, to comply with IYRC-rules (so as not to loose amatuer
	status) the money is funnelled thru the national sailing association
	and is then used mainly to cover verifiable cost (transportation, loss
	of regular salaries, gear).

	Outright pro racing is therefore quite uncommon here. This might ex-
	plain some of the differences between the the US and the (at least)
	Scandinavian scene.

	National champs (IOR) and a few "gimmick" races sort here.

	These races still make up only a small proportion of all racing, most
	races are handicap, either Scandicap or LYS (Leading Yard Stick), in
	which adverts are not allowed and people sail their own boat to their
	own satisfaction. This works very well as the fleets are fairly
	homogenous and especially LYS is very well regarded as being as fair
	as you could hope for. There is still that good old "gentleman" feeling
	around in these races.

	Then there are ofcourse some races that are not organized under the
	supervision of the IYRC and these have for some time allowed free
	for all advertising (Americas cup being one of these, if I'm not mis-
	taken). One of the reasons for the IYRC to loosen up their rules was
	to get control of some of these races (now that their rules can be
	applied) or at least to stop all sponsor money from flowing to these
	races.

	As to personal opinions on regulations I'm strongly against any kind.
	The fact that I found out about sailing some years ago does in no way
	give me any special right as compared to the guy who was "converted"
	this summer! I'm not sure about you folks, but I sure was a beginner
	in the beginning... therefore I guess I'll have to allow for that in
	most other people, too.

	The methods used here to regulate sailing are (just to name a few) :
	- sailing facilities (harbours etc) maintained by the different levels
	  of government
	- attitude-shaping adds campaigns sponsored by both the government
	  and different boating associations
	- a very extensive program for teach basic skills (like navigation)
	  with coutrywide exams to keep requirements similar all around
	- regular boat inspections by yacht clubs (normally a prerequisite
	  for a berth)
	- insurance policies that give significant bonuses for claim-free
	  years (I have a 60% bonus) giving good incentive to learn and be
	  careful

	As for the "masses" invading the seas, it has good sides and it has 
	bad sides. The bad ones are mainly increased environmental problems.
	On the up side are new and improved gear (especially safety) and 
	better (AND faster) boats. Also some coutries (like Germany and France)
	churn out boat in mass production, which has significantly aided in
	keeping the prices of boats at a reasonable level.

	So I vote for more sailers!

	Regs, H�kan

    I've sailed in a few sponsored regattas (NOOD-Rolex, Volvo-Newport,
    and Audi-Race Week) and all were acknowledged to be successful well
    run affairs.  Aside from displaying some of their wares and a few
    banners with the company's logo, the advertiser's presence was pretty
    low key.  Without the sponsorship these events either would not
    have happened or would have been held on a much reduced scale.  
    
    In America's cup racing the Lipton and Bond challenges were motivated
    in part by a desire to promote the challenger's product.  Lipton
    tea sales rose during the races and did anyone ever hear about Foster's
    lager and Black Swan before Newport '83?  
    
    Maybe I have a jaded attitude but no one HAS to take advertising
    money or participate sponsored events.
    
    - gene

    I think sposored regattas are a good idea.  All the ones I've been to
    so far have been well-run.  Probably because the money's there to run
    them well.
    
    Sponsoring boats is another matter though, and I have basically mixed
    feelings about it.  Something inside me rebels at the sight of an
    America's Cup boat with Pepsi and Marlboro stickers all over it.  On
    the other hand, if money was involved there would be more races, and I
    might have been able to find a boat to race on this past week-end :^).
    
    I'd be in favor of a special class (or classes) for sponsored boats. 
    The money issue would be too much in their favor to allow them to race
    against non-sponsored boats.  And I'd be dead set against seeing
    sponsorship kill the chances of a privately campaigned boat not being
    able to compete.
    
    On the other hand, it'd be exciting to see more of the bigger, faster
    boats in local regattas.  Or even to see some bigger events coming to
    places like Marblehead.  I'd love to be able to watch the big cats and
    maxis race, and sponsorship would promote more of this.
    
    I think advertising and sponsorship have a place in racing events,
    though not that it should be universally applied.
    
    ... Bob
    

    greetings from the gold coast...
    
    re: replies from overseas:
    		It appears that advertising and sailing can work togather.
    		I didn't expect that the entire sailing community here
    		would convert to sponsorship racing, only that this form
    		of racing could exist in America.  Thanks for the insight.
    
    re: (Mr.)? Billings:
    		"on something", you could say I'm on something, I'm
    		"on the water"(as often as I can).  I open these
    		discussions to hear any and all opinions on the given
    		subject, I don't take any offence nor do I intend any
    		insult (I do get excited sometimes) in the discussions
    		recorded here.  Thanks for the feedback.
    
    As far as I can tell, the only multihull racing(besides class 1)with
    sponsors is conducted by the ProSail group.  All the catamaran hulls
    come from the same company, IMI, and can be configured in any way
    (sail area, rudder location, etc.).  ProSail defines the race course
    so that much of the action can be viewed from the shore.  This makes
    for some interesting match racing with prize money on the line.
                                                      
    Monohulls seem to attract sponsorship in most of the larger races
    (whitbread, etc.) and in the international maxi races.  But, there
    is no final winner, only a winner for each race.
    
    But, what I'm looking for would be like what the triple crown is
    for horse racing, or what the superbowl is to pro football.  An
    overall winner reconized as the best. An unlimited class of sponsored 
    boats racing to be the reconized fastest sail on the water in either 
    the monohull or the multihull divisions of that class.
    
    Advertising and sponsors seems to be the way to generate the funds 
    required to compete on such a large scale.
    					John Papa
    

	A small correction to .15. I incorrectly backwards translated the
	name of the International Yacht Racing Union (I figured it was
	Council), hence the abbreviation should be IYRU.

	Sorry for that....