Conference unifix::sailing

    Apply for the abatement. You are not liable for any MA excise tax.
    Read 80.0. 
    

    Presently R.I. does not have any tax on boats in their state, but
    there has been considerable discussion about it. 
    
      - Larry

    re:1 Fine,note 80 I read anytime I have questions about taxes and it
    does address the mass.tax.What about the last part of my question.
    If I can get the abatement from Mass.do I play dead with RI or somehow
    they will get me.In a few words excise tax has to be paid here or there
    or can it fall throu the cracks and I can use that money to buy half
    an autopilot.Anyway thanx for the responce 1 and 2.
    On another unrelated matter respondent's 1 boat picture in mags very
    good,Beautifull boat,I like the boat ,my wife likes the shirts the
    crew wear in the picture but as I explain to her(flame)these people
    are yachters we are boaters.
    
    Happy sailing.!

    I dunno nothin 'bout RI which is why I only answered the part of your
    question I was sure of. I did wonder how you got a MA excise bill in
    the first place? (and also how it came to pass that you paid MA Sales
    Tax, although I can make some assumptions)
    
    Re shirts: Sabre provides them, and promptly takes them back when the
    camera stops clicking.

re .4:

>>>    Re shirts: Sabre provides them, and promptly takes them back when the
>>>    camera stops clicking.

Ye gods, what cheapskates, especially considering the price of Sabres! 
Are times in the sailboat business really this bad?

:-)

    Alan, don't get me started on *cheapskates*. You might assume that I
    have other momento's of this two day effort; like maybe some nice
    photos, or an original copy of the ad, or .... something.
    
    But noooo, of the hundreds of slides taken, they sent me 4 or 5 of the
    obvious rejects.
    
    My wife and I aren't *real* happy with the 'crafted with fierce pride'
    crowd these days.
    
    > Are times in the sailboat business really this bad?
    
    I know this wasn't a serious question, but...
    I get mixed messages. Sabre came out with a powerboat as a hedge
    against the sailboat market situation. Now demand for this boat is below
    expectations, and they've cut short the production run, to build
    more 42's. I can't figure where the demand for this boat is coming
    from.
    Re .0, sorry for the digression.
    

Another tax question:

I am planning to buy a boat. I will keep it in RI, summer and winter.
The seller lives in MA. I live in MA.

I can buy the boat in MA, or I can buy it in RI. (I'll ask him to deliver
it.)

In each case, will I have to pay RI sales tax, MA sales tax, RI excise tax,
MA excise tax? Is this affected by whether I document it? (The boat presently
has a MA title.)

--RS

    When I bought my boat in Mass from a dealer, I had to pay both STate
    sales and excise tax.  [I don't know if this applies when buying from
    and individual and NOT registering is in MASS.]  When I moved it to
    RI, my friendly harbormaster reported me to the RI tax people as he was
    required to do.  They sent me a "nice" letter asking me for tax
    receipts - both sales and excise.  I provided this, and they were happy
    even thought Mass tax is 5% and RI tax is 6%.  I wasn't asked to pay
    the difference.  I've never been asked to pay any RI tax per se as my
    boat is documented, but as of last July 1, you will have to "register"
    your boat and pay a "registration fee" .
    
    -gayn
    
    

    You're much better off to buy the boat in MA (yes, it's a rare treat). 
    If you are trading in another boat, Mass tax is 5% of the difference
    between your old and new boat.  RI tax is 7% (up from 6%) of the entire
    amount.  
    
    If you keep the boat in RI as I do, you'll have to pay a $50 fee to RI
    even though your boat is documented.  This goes to the state of RI and
    eliminates any excise tax coming from a town . . . at least it does for
    now.
    
    Previous notes are correct regarding RI demanding proof that you paid
    taxes.
    
    

If I'm selling a small sailboat, do I have to worry about bills of sale, 
registrations, taxes, etc.?

Dave

RE: .8
	Do you have any other details? Also do you mean as of July 1, 1991 
	or 1990? If your boat is documented will you need to display 
	registration numbers on the bow?

Thanks,
Linas

    	No expert but...
    	Don't you pay sales tax to the sate of registration?
    	I had to document AND register my boat. This way, the state and
    feds make a few bucks on the sale. I was told I didn't have to put the
    registration #'s on my hull, so I didn't. Actually, I may try using
    them on the Zodiac.
    You pays your money, and you pays your money.
    Oh, yeah, I suggest keeping ALL documents of sale and purchase; a
    cover-your-butt stategy.
    Second line errata- that's STATE not sate. 
    Mr. Typo deLux

    In Rhode Island you don't have to put the registration numbers on the
    hull, but you do have to put the state's $50 red stickers on the bow.
    Yes, they are checking.  You can probably plead ignorance once.

    re .12
    
    It would not be a good idea to put the numbers assigned to your boat on
    your Dink. Should you ever be questioned or asked to show the
    registration slip, you would have some serious explaining to do when
    the boat description and boat possessing the numbers don't match.
    At least that's what would occur in Texas. I don't think your state
    govt officials would smile any different on the subject.
    
    Robert

    
    	You're probably right, tho I know it USED to be the tender
    servicing the vessel came under her jurisdiction/insurance/
    responsibility. However, in these gimmeedamoney days, the state
    rulemakers like to call the dinghy just another taxpayin' vessel.
    My inflatable lives aboard, and rarely needs the OB, so it's typically
    left alone.
    
    So Far........

I'm confused. I've found a buyer for my 21 year old "Day Sailer I" but I don't
know how to handle the title/registration/bill-of-sale/taxes, etc. Here's the
problem. 

The boat was originally bought by my father (who lived in NY at the time) from a
Massachusetts dealer. Therefore, there was no state sales tax paid. My buyer 
lives in Connecticut. I don't know if Connecticut is a "title" state. If not,
there is no problem. If so, I will have to produce a certificate of title to the
boat. To do that, I will have to send in $15 along with my application. Since I
don't actually own the boat, can my father "sell" it to me for $1.00 and sign a
bill of sale? If so, do I then have to pay tax on it, and how much? If not, can
my father sell the boat to the guy from Connecticut, and if so, who pays the
sales tax, etc. 

Any advice would be appreciated.

Dave

    re : .16
    
    Dave,
    
    Don't make it so hard.
    
    Give your buyer a bill of sale.  If he needs a title, spend the $15 to
    get it titled by your father and give him a title, too.  He pays the sales
    tax.  You've been registering it right along, right??  so the issue of
    sales tax on the original transaction is not a problem, right??
    
    r
    

            <<< Note 1218.17 by ICS::R_GREEN "Ron Green 223-8956" >>>
                                -< not hard... >-
<    Give your buyer a bill of sale.  If he needs a title, spend the $15 to
<    get it titled by your father and give him a title, too.  He pays the sales
<    tax.  You've been registering it right along, right??  so the issue of
<    sales tax on the original transaction is not a problem, right??
    
Actually, the last time I registered the boat was in 1971. That was so I could 
take it out in Boston harbor with an outboard motor. The last time I registered 
and used the trailer was in 1977. I'm sure I don't still have the paperwork.

Dave

In MA, a sale between parent and child is not taxable. (I know this is true
for motor vehicles. I presume it is also true for trailers and boats.)

--RS

    A friend of ours just received a tax bill from Rhode Island for
    the boat they bought in Massachusetts.  Although they paid sales tax
    in Massachusetts, Rhode Island is demanding the difference between the
    5% sales tax paid in Massachusetts and the 6% sales tax in place in Rhode 
    Island when the boat was purchased.  They are being assessed penalties
    for the tax dating back to 1988, even though this is the first bill
    they have ever received.  The tax letter gave them 10 days to pay up
    but didn't mention consequences.
    
    I suspect that the rest of us who purchased in Massachusetts but now
    have our boats in Rhode Island will be receiving similar letters.  I
    know that several years ago I got a letter from the Rhode Island
    revenue department wanting proof that I paid sales tax in
    Massachusetts.  I provided a copy of the receipt and that was the end
    of it.  Or so I thought.
    
    Any ideas on how to fight this? 

    
    I'm about to purchase a 30' boat from a private party in New York.
    The boat will be registered and used in Mass..  I'm a Mass. resident.
    Right now, the boat is in New York as is the broker.  All monies will
    flow through the broker and not be paid directly to the owner.  The broker
    says that the only way he can legally avoid collecting the 8% New York
    sales tax is to have delivery made to Connecticut (for example) by a
    professional captain, for a cost of about $150.- for the day's sail.
    
    Two questions:
    
    Does anyone know how I might avoid both the New York sales tax and the
    expense of a captain ?
    
    Also, if I do pay the New York tax, am I liable for the full 5%
    Mass. tax when applying for my Mass. registration ?  (Boat will
    be moored permanently in Mass..)
    
    Thanks,
    
    Rick
    

The Massachusetts Department of Revenue seems to waffle on when you must
pay sales tax. If you buy the boat outside Massachusetts and keep it
outside the state for six months (be prepared to prove it), you may not
have to pay Massachusetts sales tax (a friend of ours didn't, or, more
correctly, hasn't yet). But ..... the state in which the sale does take
place will want its tax -- in your case either New York or Connecticut.
Normally, any sales tax paid to another state is credited against what
you would owe Massachusetts. I'd suggest calling the MA DOR and asking
them -- don't give them your name and call at least twice to talk to
different people. Keep calling until you get a consistent story. Even if
you document the boat, the state will find out you have it and send you
a bill for the sales tax. Once they bill you, life gets fairly
miserable. The state wants the money immediately, and though you think
you don't owe it, they expect you to pay first and haggle later. 
To be safe, assume you have to pay the sales tax. If later you don't, 
take a vacation. 

re .21

If the sale happens in MA, you will only need to worry about the MA
sales tax. There ought to be a way to make the sale happen in MA, e.g.
charter the boat from the current owner, sail it to MA, then buy it when
it's here. (You can make the charter fee high enough so the owner doesn't
need to worry about the possibility of you backing out, and you can add
an option to purchase to the charter to eliminate the possibility of the
owner pocketing the charter fee and backing out.) This deal could get
quite complicated, especially if the broker starts worrying about losing his
commission, or not being licensed to sell boats in MA, etc.

If you do pay the NY tax, you will need to present evidence of payment
of the New York tax before you can register the boat in MA. You will also need
the New York tax evidence to defend yourself against later MA tax claims,
especially if you document the boat, rather than registering it.

As Alan suggests, contact the DOR to see what they say. Specifically ask them
what papers you will need to register the boat and/or waive your MA
tax liability.

I just went through this process in Rhode Island on a boat I bought in MA.
I paid the MA sales tax when I bought the boat, and I had to pay RI the
difference between the higher RI tax and the MA tax before I could register
it in RI.

--RS

If taking delivery in CT will allow you to avoid NY tax in favor of MA
tax, that would would preferable - 5% in MA is lower than NY (and what's
the chance of a refund from them, right?).  CT just implemented a sales
tax, I believe, of 4.5% or some odd figure like that.  So if you have to 
pay it there, you'll only have pay Bill Weld .5%; if you can get it all 
the way to MA without paying CT, then Bill Weld gets it all in one check.

Your chances of avoiding the tax altogether are slim, and the penalties 
for trying to do so aren't worth the risk or money.  Harbormaster and boat 
registration records are frequently checked for payment of annual fees, 
and no record of tax paid will surely excite some bureaucratic underling 
into Righteous Action.  If 3% of your recorded purchase price (assumed NY
rate less MA rate) > $150, with add'l storage expenses and such figured
in, then it's worth doing it the broker's way. 

MA is known for getting everyone coming (to) and going (from the state.) 

J.

    Just a note on MA sales tax. If you purchase a boat, trailer, etc. and
    have not paid a sales tax somewhere,then do not wait to pay MA. We 
    bought our ODay 22, outboard motor and trailer from a private party  in
    NH in October of 1989. In April of 1990 we went to register the boat
    and you probably guessed it, we had to not only had to pay the MA sales
    tax, we had to pay a penalty and interest because we had not paid the
    tax within x days of the sale. Had I known, I would have had a more
    current bill of sale!  So PAYER beware! 
    
    
    Fred

    
    
        I am about to pay my marina fees in Mass this week. One question
    though. Is this taxible? The marina has added 5% to the bill for Mass
    state tax.  I would figure this is a service, and as such should not
    be taxed in Mass.
    
        thanks
    
         john
    "who is tried of writing checks for registration, mooring fees, excise
    taxes, etc"

    You should be charged for the gear not the service.  

    re .27
    
       You are correct. From talking to the marina owner, who has talked to his
    accountants, Mass State law says there is a tax on the rental of
    personal property (ie like renting a power tool at a rental shop).
    
       Unfortunitely, launch service is considered "free", so the tax is on
    the total amount of the rental.  ;>(
    
       john