Conference unifix::sailing

Jeff,

Best wishes on your trip.  

One thought you may wish to consider:  The USCG recently considers *any*
payment made to the owner of a vessel (bringing the beer, for instance) to 
be cause for considering those on board, other than the permanent crew, to 
be passengers for hire.  And therefore requiring a licensed captain.

It's a sticky situation, one that many are protesting for obvious reasons. 
But for now, it's what they're enforcing.  If anything went wrong....
Advertising a ride for a price mightn't help your case.

Parade-rainer-on,

J.

    You're correct.  The Coast Guard has set several precedents about
    paying for cruising.  Sharing expenses has been common for "friends"
    to use to circumvent this.  The air-fare has nothing to do with
    the cost (or fare) of the cruise.  Sharing the expenses for food
    and drink will fit the Coast Guard's guidelines if the burden is
    equal to all on-board.
    
    If I (the skipper) spends $300 on food and charge each of 2 crew
    members $100 each and assume $100 myself, then all OK.  What fails
    the rules is when the skipper charges the crew $150 each and doesn't
    pay anything himself.  This is not "expense sharing", this is paying
    expenses for the trip.
    
    Reality is that maritime law has always been ambiguous.  When some
    maritime authority wants to get you on something they will, but
    thankfully most people don't have any problems.
    
    Thanks for the advice,
    Jeff
    
    

Hmmmmm, expense sharing is legal, charging for the trip isn't (assuming 
you lack a Coast Guard license). Alright, what expenses must be shared? 
Food, fuel, customs fees, etc, seem obvious candidates for shared 
expenses. Assume that I am planning a similar trip and that I buy a 
windvane and a liferaft solely and expressly for the trip. Does my crew 
have to share the cost of the windvane and liferaft equally for me to
remain within the bounds of the law? 

It seems like an essential item of cruising equipment is a lawyer tucked 
into the bilge.

:-)

>  It seems like an essential item of cruising equipment is a lawyer tucked 
>  into the bilge.

    I thought these were better tucked under the keel?
 

    re .4
    No!  Definitely not...too much drag.  Low in the bilge (under the
    cabin sole, or maybe under the engine) is just right.
    
    

    For what its worth......the Code of Federal Regulations (CFR),
    Subchapter C, 46 CFR, Part 24.10-3, defines carrying passengers
    for hire as:
    
    "The carriage of any person or persons by a vessel for a valuable
    consideration, whether directly or indirectly flowing to the owner,
    charterer, operator, agent, or any other person interested in the
    vessel."
    
    I am sure that a lawyer could provide many interesting interpretations
    for this law.
    
    Al
    

    RE: .-1  Thanks for the quote of the code.  As I stated earlier
    Maritime Law is sufficiently ambiguous to convict anyone of anything,
    anytime, anywhere!
    
    I didn't realize that I would be creating a "Lawyer Joke" note.
    
    Do you know the differnece between a dead skunk in the road and
    a dead lawyer in the road???
    
    
    
    
    
    
    Skid marks in front of the skunk!
    
    Yuk, yuk.
    
   

    What do you have when you have a lawyer buried up to his neck in
    sand?
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    Not enough sand.
    
    Dave

    Heard the one about the lawyer on his deathbed.....looking through
    the bible for loopholes?

    
    
    
    	I received a call from Jeff this morning. He is in Bermuda and
    	is fine.

    What do you call a sailboat full of lawyers that sinks?
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    a beginning!

    Anyway, back to the subject. Here's an excerpt from Chapman's, under
    "Commercial operation":
    
    "The Coast Guard has ruled that the following situations...constitute
    instances of carrying passengers for hire:
    
    [4 instances given I quote one of them here]:
    
    If there is a prearranged plan or agreement in advance that the guests
    are to pay their proportionate share, or any specific amount, of the
    cruise expenses"
    
    Immediately below, however, there is the following passage:
    
    "If the participants in an expense-sharing cruise are members of a
    bona-fide "joint venture", they are then all considered under the law
    to be "owners" and not "passengers", and thus no licensed operator
    would be required"
    
    Chapmans goes on to state that this must all be set down in writing,
    that each person must have the right to full posession, control and
    navigation of the craft. A mere "share the expenses" is not enough to
    establish a joint venture, and liability must also be considered.
    
    How this can be legally achieved completely escapes me, let alone
    allowing everyone on any craft have the right to demand control and
    navigation!! This whole thing is either insane, arcane or inane, or all
    three.

Personally, I'm of the opinion that lawyers should be consulted less, not more.
Of course, that exposes you to some added legal risk. But then, if you're
willing to sail from Boston to S.F. taking passengers along the way, you can't
be completely risk-averse...

If your boat sinks, and somebody drowns, you will probably be sued and will
end up penniless, regardless of the lawyerly details. Even so, you'll presumably
feel much worse about the companion who drowned than about the personal
fortune you've lost.

If you're willing to take the risks, go ahead and take the risks.

--RS

      Crew wanted for a late October 1994 trip to Bermuda and from there on
    to USVI. 
    I would like a couple of crew for each leg.Can be the same crew for
    both legs if they wish.
    The crew: Preferebly at least one with Ocean voyage experience,will be 
    responsible for their airfair to the boat,if they are not onboard the
    first leg to Bermuda and again for the airfair from St.Thomas back to
    their home.They should also bring with them their own safety harness.
    Expenses while onboard would be appx. $ 50-60/wk for food and $15.00
    for the Bermuda clearance fee each person.
    The itinarary: I would like to leave Newport late afternoon on Friday
    Oct.21
    Newport to Bermuda      6-9 days  
    Arrival St.George       27-30 Oct.
    Enjoy Bermuda  till      6-7  Nov.
    Departure from Bermuda   6-7  Nov.
    Arriving St.Thomas      13-15 Nov.
    Crew can leave the boat or stay onboard for one more week sailing the
    VI's
    The boat: She is a 32' LOD heavy displacement(17,000 lb.) cutter(Down
    Eastern) She is equiped with a 30hp Fresh water cooled Yanmar, just 
    overhauled by Mac Boring,VHF,DEPTH,LORAN,GPS,A/P,RDF,SSB,RADAR,WIND
    VAIN,200mi EPIRB and a plastic sextant(I probably get an ASTRA sextant
    too)Have already paid and wait for delivery of a 6 man double floor
    offshore Avon Liferaft from England(thanks to the notes in this file by
    John Rodenisher and Alan and Pete Gough from U.K. they saved me a lot of
    money for the liferaft and a 45lb.CQR).
    There would be double jack lines(one 7/32 wire and the other 1" nylon
    webbing,trysail hooked permanately to a second sail track on the mast
    and a storm jib hooked permanetly on second forstay.Unfortunatelly no
    refrigitation or air condition.
    The boat is still on the hard where will be surveyed next week and 
    then go in the water.I owe this boat seven years and did not have
    any major problem or insurance claims with her.
    The Captain : Old,age 57 former merchant mariner,former Navy only 8-9
    years experience on sailboats.Have been around the world on big ships
    still occassionaly get sea sick. US master 50 ton,USPS full
    certificate respect but not afraid of the deep.Sometimes uneasy near
    lee shore,two groundings have not erase my uneasyness.
    Have sailed from New york to Maine. Longest trip Newport-Mnt.Desert
    Island Maine.
    If you are interested please send mail with some kind of sailing resume
    to: Jupitr::Ktistakis or phone DTN 237-2208
         

I have sailed with Mike for one weekend, down to Cuttyhunk.  

Add to the captains ciricula vitae (sic?) that he is pleasant company.

The boat is a comfortable easy motion.  Though in our case Buzzard's Bay was
dead flat. 

Mike, put me down on the interested, but not yet committed list.  Amy and I need
to think this one through.  

Incidently, Holiday II is coming to the south side of the Cape.  You are welcome
to join us, coastal cruising while you are on the hard.

Mail is on its way.

Doug Claflin 
dtn 244-7042

re .14:

Mike, 

I assume you've good reasons for leaving so late in the year and for
going offshore. There was a very, very sobering article in Practical
Sailor recently about North Atlantic autumn weather. The chances of good
weather for the Bermuda passage are uncomfortably low, and the bad
weather can be very bad, most especially in the Gulf Stream. At the very
least, I would suggest departing only when there is a good offshore
weather forecast, not departing on a fixed date. Bob Rice of Weather
Services in Bedford, MA, is one of the well-known, for_a_fee weather
forecast providers. (Disclaimer: I have never met him nor have I ever 
used his services.)

If I were doing this trip, I'd take the intercoastal Waterway to North 
Carolina before heading offshore, at least in the autumn. An autumn 
passage to Bermuda is not a passage I would feel comfortable doing, 
particularly with inexperienced crew.

signed,

Ever_the_cautious_even_cowardly_sailor

    I'd have to second Alan's misgivings (I hate to have to say that) about 
    the weather that time of year.  The weather cycles in autumn seem to
    shorten from the summery six to seven day cycles to something closer to
    five days.  
    
    To complicate matters a bit more, there used to be a private radio
    operator on Bermuda, Herb lastnameescapesme (Hilgenberg?) who maintained a 
    seven days a week, after work until the wee-hours, weather net on the 
    radio.  Herb is not a Bermudian and by governement edict his time on 
    the island is up, and he must return to Canada.  Nobody on the island is 
    ready or able take his place.  So, one of the best sources of up-to-the
    minute weather reports and forecasts, is no longer available.  NOAA
    used to use his surface observations to help with their weather
    forecasting.  
    
    Good luck,
    
    djc
    

    Well Alan, The trip was schedualed initially last year for June 1994.
    Then my Son calls from Florida that he was going to get married on
    June.
    So, that's that for the scheduale.Then I decided I better do the trip
    during Oct.-Nov.if I was going to make it at all.The future is
    uncertain at least here at Digital as we all know and I don't even 
    know if I would be able to support the boat next year(i hope I will).
    I believe you agree this is as good a reason to do the voyage.
    As for the hardship of the trip, a friend of mine was told by a friend
    of his who circumnavigated around the world that the worst weather he
    enconter was at the Horn and during the Boston to Bermuda trip.
    I also think that it was Ernest Hemminway (sp) who said that Bermuda is 
    paradise but to go there you have to go through the purgatory.I bet he
    didn't use the airlines.
    On the other hand reading some Bermudian( O.K promotional) material
    it states that small craft complete succesfull passages all seasons
    and a well found 35'overall boat with 4 experience crew is adequate
    for normal Ocean passage.
    But what is normal excluding the hurricane season.If you go through the
    trip logs in this file of your trip,Gardiners and Al Dunnigans it
    seems that it cannot get worst(I know it can) and you guys went the
    best of the time.
    What I am trying to say is that anyone who has some knowledge of the
    North Atlantic should know that it is not going to be sailing on
    the lake regardless of the time of the passage.Agree that some times
    I would avoid completely and as a matter of fact I only would go there
    during June or late Oct.-Nov.
    You see my main concern is the North wall of the Gulf stream and I have
    read that during Oct -Nov  the water temp.of the N edge of the Gulf
    stream is closer to the water temp.of the atlantic side therefore
    the chances of bad weather at that point is less than that in the
    somer.
    As far as the N atlantic is concerned a good forecast before you leave
    keep an eye on the barometer every hour listen to the forcasts from
    the radio and pray a little.And yes Herb is gone.

    somer is the new spelling for summer.I never sai I can spell!
    
    

    Mike, why is this trip done offshore ?
    
    (sorry for my ignorance, I never studied the passage along the East
    Coast of the US)
    
    
    What keeps you  from harbour hoping down the coast to Florida and
    then sailing to the VI ?
    
    I wish you all the best and fine weather. Thanks for the help you
    gave me.
    
    Peter 

    The time it would take to harbor hop, and the total distance travelled
    would be quite a bit longer than a more direct route.  The distance
    from Florida to the USVI is smoething likr 1200 miles.  Boston to
    Bermuda is about 750 and bermuda to USVI is another 1500.  Boston to
    Florida is 1200.  
    
    Folks that have the time take several weeks to get to Florida via the
    intracoastal waterway.  
    
    
    Brian

    Peter Hi!
    I see your point,but I think you assume that because the VI's are the 
    final destination why this guy is going the rough and long way.
    First of all if it was that way and the same time period,yes I would
    go harbour hoping through the intercoastal to Florida,then Bahamas and
    finally to VI's.
    The reason I want to go offsore  is because I want to go to Bermuda.
    A passage to Bermuda by an East coast sailor is like a pilgrimage.
    Make it
     double pilgrimage for the first timer.Reversing the schedule 
    and go to Bermuda from the VI's doesn't make sense to me for a lot
    of reasons,major one is that the boat stays in the caribbean after the
    trip.
    Alan has a good suggestion to go south through the intercoastal to
    N.Carolina then cross the gulf stream there which is closer to
    land than up northEast and also narrower.There even with a Northern
    the first 20 miles of the stream are hellish( I am excluding off
    Cape Hatteras where the higher wind speeds over North Atlantic
    have been recorded)But then we fall in the time restrictions and
    the availability of crew.If I was crew I wouldn't do the Intercoastal
    unless I had plenty of time to visit and enjoy the harbours and inlets
    of the South among their hospitality.Besides in the Intercoastal  the
    sailboat becomes rather a powerboat.
    Well Peter I am not a macho man nor am I a masochist but doing this
    trip I know there will be some weather.But with good preparation 
    vigilance and good common sense it could be just another voyage.
    
    Again Have a good, safe and happy sail and wish you you win the
    speed race of the ARC during the crossing.
    
    Mike K.
    
     
     

    Oooh, I start to understand the problems getting to Bermuda.
    (I had a long discussion last night with my navigator, my wife)
    
    June    	is rather early in the year (unsettled weather), but just
    	    	at the beginning of the hurrican season
    	
    July    	would be best for settled weather, but well inside the 
    	    	hurrican/tropical depression/tropical storm time
    
    August  	the same as July, but increased chances of hurricans
    
    September   the same as August, first large depressions coming in
    
    October     decreasing hurricans, increasing unsettled weather
    
    November    last hurricans, first winterstorms
    
    
    Is that correct ?
    
    Peter

re .23:

As I recall the Pilot Charts, the chances encountering a severe storm or 
hurricane is actually quite low in May, June, and July, especially 
north of Bermuda. The average is something like one or so severe
depression (meaning more than gale force winds) in the entire 
Carribbean/North Atlantic per month. Even August isn't too likely. When
we went to Bermuda, our insurance company insisted that we do the trip
before the beginning of August (which says that they weren't worried
about May through July weather). I've made the trip in both May and
July. 

The Pilot Charts are considerably more interesting for August through 
Novemer, both wind and sea conditions. As Dave Carter mentioned, the 
time between weather patterns/fronts becomes much less in autumn, and 
the chances of good weather for the passage from the US to Bermuda are 
not high. I encountered winds over 30 knots in both July and May (in May 
it happened in the Gulf Stream heading north). 

Alan