Conference unifix::sailing

    Jim,	
    	I know this is a dumb question; but, looking at your stick figure
    I've got to ask ---
    
    	Why have a chock at all?  Why not just two Cleats near where
    the chocks were?   Seems more flexible, eliminates one point of
    chafe & cleans up some deck space.
    
                                                See ya,
                                                         Lou
    

I'm not too keen on skene chocks. They seem to have a sharpish edge 
for a line lead either forward or aft depending on how they're mounted. 
I'd suggest taking a look at the stainless steel chocks that look like a 
padeye on steroids and have a locking pin that can be pulled sideways to 
allow a line to be dropped into the eye. These are in most everyone's 
catalog (about $34 each). 

The bow chock arrangement you have, though very common, isn't very good 
for anchoring. As the boat wanders about the anchor rode, the rode will 
chafe on the hull at the bow on one tack or the other. Though it will no 
doubt be difficult to install, a bow roller would be nice (if built 
strongly). 

I'd use the biggest four mounting hole open base cleat you can fit onto 
the foredeck. Using an open base cleat makes it possible to securely and 
easily lash a pennant eye onto the cleat. Naturally, a large backing 
plate should be used. Two cleats would be nice (if there's room -- even 
close side by side) if you ever have to raft up or are tied to a dock 
and someone wants to tie alongside outboard.

    
    Interesting idea (.1)...wouldn't it create chafing line
    against line (in the cleat) as the cleated line worked against
    itself?  As an alternative, why not a heavy wire loop that
    worked against the cleat?
    
    (Can't imagine drawing it in edt, but you get the idea).
    The wire rope would be secured to the mooring line by
    a knot that would be stable..the wire rope would work
    on the cleat, where most abrasion occurs.
    
    Beau
    

    The best chock design I have ever seen was on a Hinckley (sigh...).
    It had two vertical rollers at either end, connected by a swing
    open gate.  This was mounted in the toe rail such that, when closed,
    it presented an absolutely flush rail while underway so nothing
    gets snagged on it.  When in use as a chock the rollers should
    drastically reduce chafe.  Alas, I've never seen this anywhere else.
    
    Cleats at the rail seem like a great idea as it applies to chafe.
    My concern there would be that every line on your boat will eventually
    snag on this arrangement though.  Maybe some kind of gate arrangement
    would prevent this.  Another problem with this arrangement is an
    inability to get really good fastening at the rail.  I think a boat
    would have to be designed with this in mind for it to be practical.
    Remember that the center line [forward] is a very sound place,
    structurally speaking, on sail boats so an excellent mount for
    cleats.
    
    re: chafe
    
    I have long considered a roller (as close to center as practical)
    over the bow as the best compromise.  In fact, I want to make one
    but haven't been able to locate a really solid roller/bearing assembly
    to incorporate in the design.   There are some anchor/roller assemblies
    for sale that are expensive (my opinion) and don't have much appeal
    to me because they seem to have inadequately considered chafe under
    wild conditions.  Most of the them look like they would be perfectly
    adequate on Walden Pond though.

    re: cleats
    
    The absolute best for the rode is an arrangement you see on real
    ships.  This is two closely spaced cylinders.  A line is layed into
    this, figure eight fashion.  Next best is something you see on fishing
    vessels sometimes and also on classic yachts.  This is a square
    post with a rod through the top (not sure of the name).  The worst
    is a cleat!  I say this based solely on the treatment the rode receives
    in these scenarios.   Of course you have to reverse the order if
    practicality is a consideration.  I hate compromise :^( !
    

    Re: -.1  The object you refer to is a Sampson Post.  Very prone
    to snagging anything that comes within six feet of it.
    
    Dave

    re: last 2
    
    Thanks for the sampson post, that sounds familiar.   The double
    cylinder thing is a 'bollard' I think (spelling?).   Both types
    should be really good at snagging which is why you probably
    never see them on sail boats until you get to schooner size.
    
    Still, I'm a bit surprised that no modern day compromise exists
    that solves the inherent problems.

    A bollard is found only on a pier. It's a pair of mooring bitts.
    Occasionally seen on traditional yachts as well.
    
    Ross Faneuf
    

    re .4
    This may sound a bit bizarre, but if you wanted to use a roller/bearing
    assembly made to handle some abuse but not be very tall, how 'bout
    skateboard wheels made for street use?
    
    The bearings in those things are strong and run smooth. They may
    give you the beginning of an interesting project!
    
    Hang ten off the bow brudda'

    
    

RE: .2, 

>>> I'd use the biggest four mounting hole open base cleat you can fit onto 
>>> the foredeck. Using an open base cleat makes it possible to securely and 
>>> easily lash a pennant eye onto the cleat. 

There are several patterns of cleats with a hole through the base.  One 
particularly useful version is the Herreshoff cleat, which has the largest 
hole (relatively speaking) of any of them.  In fact, it really looks more 
like a shaped bar with two supporting verticals, each spaced about 1/3 of
the way in from the end. 

Advantages?  You can tie several lines through the eye of one cleat.  They 
are lighter for a given size and material than other styles.  They have a 
relatively wider base than similar-sized cleat in other traditional patterns. 
They happily accommodate a wide variety of line diameters.  And there's
something neat about having a piece of Herreshoffabilia (L. Francis, that
is) on your boat. 

J.

Note 1133.0              Deck Hardware - Cleats & Chocks               9 replies

     This is the final update explaining what I chose and why;
     
>    1. What size skene chocks would you buy for a 25' sailboat (weight
>       about 5400 lbs) and why ?

        We ended up putting in chocks designed to accomodate 3/4" line
        since we have run into 3/4" mooring rodes in our travels. We have
        several of the rubber hose type chafing guards we use when we
        are on smaller rodes.
        
>    2. What are the differences in skene chocks. Boat/US sells two types
>       of a skene chock, one labeled a skene chock made of stainless which
>       sells for 29.95 a pair, and one labeled a skene bow chock made of
>       marinium which sells for 45.90 a pair (see 1989 catalogue page 47).

        We never did figure out why the aluminum alloy chocks were so
        more expensive than the stainless ones. We went with the stainless
        ones. 

>    3. Now about mounting the chocks. One of the greatest sources of chafe
>       on the boat presently is due to the fact that the chock is mounted
>       on the deck/hull joint about an inch from the edge of the boat.
>       This means that the rode not only rests on the edge of the chock
>       but the edge of the boat - which causes the majority of the chafe.
>
>       The question is do I mount it where it is now, and just chafe
>       protect as I have before (leather/rubber hose) or is there any
>       advantage to raising the chock about 1-1.5 inches on a teak
>       pad to make it more difficult for the rode to touch the edge
>       of the boat when the rode is under strain ?
        
        
        We ended up mounting the new chocks where the old ones were,
        but invested in better chafing gear.
        

>    4. What is the best type of cleat to use - either a solid horn cleat
>       with four hole mounting - or a hollow base cleat with four hole
>       mounting ?
        
        Everybody seemed to think that hollow base cleats were better, so
        we went with them. For size we used 8" cleats which are listed as
        accomodating upto 5/8" line, but which we found could accomodate
        3/4" in a pinch. The reason for the 8" cleat over the 10" cleat was
        merely how much space I had left on the foredeck. We mounted them
        with 5" x 6" x 3/32"  stainless backing plates so we should have
        sufficient retention force in about any reasonable condition. 
        


>    5. Where is the best place to mount the cleats with respect to the
>       chocks (i.e. angle and distance) ?

        What we have now is;               ^
                                          / \     Where   S = Skene Chock
                                         /   \            C = Present Cleat
                                        S     S           N = New Cleats
                                       /       \
                                      / N     N \
                                     /           \
                                    /      C      \
                                   /               \
        
        We placed the new cleats inline with the chocks so that there would
        be no turning through the chock. We also spaced the cleats back
        about 16" back from the chocks to make sure that any spliced eye
        with a supplied garden hose chafe protector would be able to fit in
        easily. 
        
        I plan to remove the present cleat to help unclutter the foredeck
        but will wait until next year when I can do the job properly. 


        /jim