Conference unifix::sailing

    Re .0  That price seems very high for a 13 year old 28 footer even
    if it is a Sabre.  The used boat market is VERY bad (for the seller)
    now and I'm getting to be a bit of a bore about it I guess, but
    take advantage of the situation and take time to find a real bargain.
    
    Also, contact some brokers in Houston, Florida etc.  The price
    differential can more than offset the cost of shipping it up to
    New England.  The main thing is to enjoy the shopping knowing full
    well that you are in the drivers seat.  Sorry if I have offended
    anyone selling a boat right now, but those are the facts.
    
    Dave

re .1: cost of shipping

It ain't cheap. In 1979 it cost $4000 to ship a 32' boat from Washington
State to Gloucester, MA. I imagine it would cost much more today. 

    I'm kinda the resident, self-appointed, expert on Sabre's - having
    owned four - and my first reaction to the price (realizing it only
    an "asking" price) is that it's way too high. I'll try to remember
    to check my BUC book tonight.

    Why do you ask about The Yacht Headquarters? 
    
    Are they only the broker or have they taken the boat in trade or
    is this part of a three-way new boat transaction?
    
    Are they confusing the deal by making promises beyond what the
    seller offers? i.e. free work, commissioning, etc.
    
    Get it in writing! Not because of TYH's reputation, good or bad,
    but just because it's prudent.
    
    Naturally you'll have a surveyor pass judgement on the condition of
    the boat in either case, right?
    
    The only direct contact I've had with TYH was in an unusual arrangement
    when they comissioned a new Sabre that I purchased from another
    dealer. Even though there was no reason or incentive for them to
    do so, I got very prompt, efficient, and helpful service. And their
    bill was reasonable too. In fact, as I think about it now, they
    charged me about 1/3 as much for my 38' as it later cost me for
    a 42'. On the other hand, their new boat prices were always a little
    higher than the other New England Sabre dealers.

    J_R

	Well as of last Friday the Sabre is mine.  Well actually 
mine and the banks.  All went smoothly up until the day before 
closing. Then the finance company called to say the the hull identification
number on the survey did not match the one on the current 
registration and they could not close until this was straightend out.
After running around found out that the current registration was incorrect.

	So, the boat is now mine. It will be moored at Pirate Cove Marina
in Portsmouth RI. 

	Thanks to everyone for there words of encouragements.

Hope to see you sailing this summer

					Fletcher Hearns
					BISCAYNE

This summer has been dreadful for my sailing.  I belong to Boston
Harbor Sailing Club, and given the availability of boats there this summer,
I have decided that this will be the last year I will pay them money.  For
the money I give them, I could simply charter a nice boat for a week in
the Caribbean.  And a week is not much less than I've been able to reserve
boats for this last season.

So, what should I do?  Given that my wife is fianlly turned on to sailing,
we have decided that it is time to start saving towards a boat.  Right now
we are totally unprepared financially for the kind of strain that buying
a boat or owning one would place on our finances--unfortunate since the market
is so good.  Nonetheless, we estimate that in a couple of years of setting money
aside, we should have sufficient money to purchase the kind of boat we're 
interested in.

Anyway, I read through most of the notes on boat_buying in the notesfile
and have found them to be very helpful, but one topic that I did not see
discussed in detail is the cost of ownership.  This is clearly a very
important factor to me, since underestimating this cost could lead me to
not really be able to afford the boat after the purchase.

At any rate, even though I've never owned a boat, my family has.  My father
tells me I should estimate about 5-10% of the purchase price of the boat
per year I own it.  This means that if I purchased (purely for the sake of
example, even though it's a boat I like) a Catalina 30 for, say, $25K (an old
one :-) ), I should expect to spend $1200-2500/year in maintenance and other
costs.  This strikes me as low, given that a mooring rental is likely to cost
me $800.  Add winter storage, some maintenance (even if I do some myself,
parts cost money) and I can see 2K being gone real quick.  And that does
not include insurance!

So, what's a more realistic cost?  How much are you boat owners out there
spendig each year for the priviledge of keeping your boat well maintained,
insured, stored etc?  How does it break down (i.e. routine vs. things just
breaking)?  Your feedback would be greatly appreciated, if I take the plunge
I want it to be with my eyes wide open.

Thanks.

F.

I'd estimate for a 30' boat:

Mooring				  800
Taxes, fees			  200
Haul & launch			  900
repairs and maintenance		 1500
insurance			  400
capital improvements		 1000
				-----
				 4800

This does NOT include financing of the original purchase price. Your actual
cost may vary quite a bit depending on your willingness to do your own
maintenance vs 100% yard maintenance, and your willingness to forego
capital improvements.

If you're on a tight budget, chartering other people's boats is definitely
cheaper than owning your own, unless you *need* to be on the water every
weekend.

Also, a trailerable boat with an outboard motor will have a significantly lower
cost of ownership than a boat kept in the water.

--RS

    The previous reply looks high at first, but not after thinking about
    it.  Our costs are *considerably* higher than that for a racing 40
    footer.  Like 3 times that.  Don't under estimate the repairs and
    capital improvements.  While you may go a year or two without capital
    improvements, you will eventually need to rebuild your engine and
    replace sails.  Sails are amazingly expensive.
    
    All this said, there is no place I'd rather put my hard earned cash. 
    My wife might have a differing opinion!
    
    Dave

re .6:

Most of the expenses listed are reasonable. However, one major expense has 
been overlooked -- depreciation -- which Dave alludes to in the previous 
reply (.7). Everything wears out on a boat and sooner or later must be 
replaced. If you are really honest with yourself, depreciation is a most 
unpleasantly large number. Just a couple of examples: A new diesel 
engine for my boat is maybe $6000 today. If the engine lasts 15 years, 
then the cost per year is $400. A replacement set of working sails for
my boat is maybe $4000. Ten years is a long life for sails. That's
another $400 per year. Awlgripping a hull is what, $100 per foot minimum 
for a good job? Now add the depreciation on electronics, interior
cushions, pumps, standing and running rigging, batteries, etc, etc, etc,
and you're easily talking a few thousand a year more. One reason the
value of a boat declines is because the next owner has to replace/refurbish 
all the old things. You're not paying depreciation out of your pocket
every year, but you'll pay it sooner or later. 

Also, some repairs can be forecast, others can't. Many disasters aren't 
insured against. A few years ago our diesel needed major and most 
unexpected repair ($2500). You should have a contingency fund or a large 
credit limit on your MasterCard/VISA for such situations. 

Alan

These notes are great.  The more information I can get, the better off I'll be.

About depreciation.....One way of looking at it is that if you keep your
boat for a long time, you'll need to buy it anew every so many years -- in
parts and miscellanea.  This is not such a depressing thought to me anyway.  
I'm not looking for a boat as an investment medium (do I look that stupid), but
strictly an entertainment tool.  As such, writing off any money I put in it
as gone is psychologically palatable albeit stupid financially.  But I have
to have fun.

And the reason why we'd rather wait a few years and save a bunch of money
before the purchase is in part to have the catastrophic fund Alan alluded to.
Although it may be cheaper overall to charter/rent, I'm tired of it.  I like
to go out near every weekend and simply can't.  In fact this summer I've yet
to succeed at getting a single week-end reservation.  Plus the boats 
are always a  little different, have minimal comforts or electronics, and 
are not lovingly driven by the other members.

No, we will buy a boat. It's a matter of time.

But more comments,  please.....

F.

  Like most owners I actually try not to think how much
  sailing costs me per hour (would certainly take the fun
  out of the sport). I also thought Reinhard's numbers were
  a bit high til I figured my own for a Catalina 27.

  Mooring and launch service    $900
  Winter storage/spring launch  $900
  Capital upgrades/repairs     $1500
  Insurance (none)                 0
                               $3300

  The difference is I tend to lump together repairs and upgrades,
  if during a year I have no major needed repairs the money
  gets spent on upgrades. Also since I have an older boat I accept
  the insurance risk myself. I think I read somewhere that on
  any older used boat you should set aside at least 10% of its
  cost right away for upgrades and repairs in the first year.

  At the other extreme, for a friend of mind on Long Island, his
  costs are this for a MacGregor 26 (an excellent boat by the way)

  Mooring (installed themselves)                0
  winter storage (trailered home)               0
  Capital/repairs (he's an expert mechanic)   500
  Insurance                                     0
                                             $500

  His boating is this cheap because he loves to sail and knows
  he can't afford to spend anymore then this. There is definitely
  a big yearly stepup in costs between trailerable and keel.

  Also the yearly cost seems to be a bit of a step function with
  similar costs for boats in a 4-6 foot range of each other. Which
  is why I want to move up a bit. Want to buy a Catalina 27?

  /mike

  By the way I was also a member of the Boston Harbor Sailing Club,
  5+ years ago and quit because of how overbooked the cruising boats
  were (in defense of the club it was a outstanding place to learn on
  the Soling 27' race boats). Interesting to hear things haven't changed
  much.

RE: depreciation,

This won't astound anyone, but it's a calrification worth making.

Perhaps a technical distinction would help here:  Depreciation is the loss 
of value on paper, and in the market if/when you decide to sell, that 
goods once new tend to suffer.  Some items, like 50's Ferraris and fine 
art (even Hicnkleys, for a while many years ago) may *ap*preciate; it's
not strictly a function of use or age, just of value as perceived by a
consensus of the market. 

The items discussed so far fall under the heading of maintenance, or wear
and tear. These cannot be avoided, but may be minimized.  Your hull, deck
and wooden trim deteriorate in the sun whether you sail or not.  Your
sails, engine, and other components probably deteriorate faster through
use (though there's a good argument that reasonable intelligent use
maximizes the useful life of most equipment.)  These are things required 
either to keep sailing, or to stay safe, or tohelp your boat hold it's 
value as much as possible.

If you want to dissuade yourself from buying based on a financial 
analysis, consider depreciation -- that alone should do it.  ;-)

If you honestly plan to keep and use the boat, not buying it for any 
financial investment per se, then focus on the costs of upkeep, both 
annual and irregular.  These are what Alan has begun to lay out in some 
detail in .8.  This is still a large number, but easier to swallow, since 
you can trade it off in your mind against fun and enjoyment.

J.

    A couple of replies back there was a mention of assuming the insurance
    risk yourself.  My question is:  are you financing this boat?  Any bank
    will insist that their asset (it's theirs until you pay off the note!)
    be fully insured.  Also, what if you hit somebody else's Hinckley? 
    Insurance is a wonderful thing and a bargain for sailors.  I do not
    recommend going without it.
    
    I've lost a boat due an act of nature (with help from the old M'head
    harbormaster).  Insurance is the silver lining.  I've been hit by an
    uninsured sailor.  Closest I've come to physical violence in years.
    
    Dave

    Many harbours in Europe now insist on a minimum of �500,000 third party
    liability with draconian penalties for those who don't. In the UK it is
    illegal to drive a car that is not insured with 3rd party liability it
    is almost the same with boats. I note that your running costs are a lot
    less than the UK.........I will attempt to post my costs here in a week
    or two once I have got them together.
    
    
    Pete

Liability is the cheap part. For a 27' sloop you can get 300k for about $50
per year as a rider on your homer-owner insurance.

I agree that it is most unwise not to have liability insurance, 
especially given the overly litigious nature of our society. A minor 
ding in the side of a pristine Hinkley will cost many thousands of 
dollars to return to as it was before. We have the usual liability 
coverage on our house, automobile, and boat insurance. We also have a 
$1 million umbrella liability insurance policy that extends the coverage
of our other policies. The annual cost is quite low, and we wouldn't
leave home without it. If your net worth is very small, sure, you
needn't have insurance -- you won't be worth suing. Otherwise ....... 
buy insurance and keep your attorney's phone number handy. 

re. self insurance

You've got to have insurance!  I don't know of any harbor on the east coast
that doesn't require you to have insurance before you sail in.  The town's
insurance underwriters require it of them, so they make it a law!  Sure, they
don't stop you to check it, but if you get into an accident you may be
criminally liable if you didn't carry insurance.  All private marines require
you to have insurance before you tie up.  Their insurance companies require it.
It may seem like a racket, but that's just the way it is. 

    
        I have a small catamaran we trailer everywhere. A couple of years
    ago, we were rolling it down Hampton Beach NH for a regatta. The area
    was roped off, but sunbathers were all over the place anyways. As we
    were going through, one of my side shrouds snapped and the mast came
    crashing down. Thank Goodness noone was sitting right there.
    
        The following Monday there was a policy on the boat. Dirt cheap
    compared to auto policies.
    
        What would you do if some uninsured boater accidently whaled your
    pride and joy and caused one of your crew to lose an arm? What if the
    crew then sued you? Part of seamanship is knowing you have prepared 
    for ALL problems.
    
       john

RE: .16,

Point well taken.  Since liability coverage is relatively reasonable, it's 
your own boat's coverage that you can skimp on and see a difference.  Or
take a $5K, $10K or $20K deductible, just to cover catastrophic damage
through total loss. 

J.

As best I remember, these are what I'm paying.  The boat is Catalina 30 hull
number 17, so you won't be able to find a much older one (1975)...

Mooring		 $550 (second year of lease/purchase, includes M'head 5.50/ft)
Launch		 $300
Haul/store 	$1000
Insurance	 $550 (30k yacht, 300k liability [I'm not sure of the 300k num])
Yearly stuff	 $500 (bottom paint, epoxy, sandpaper, wiring gone bad, hoses,
			lines, head rebuild kit)

I've owned her for 6 years.  In that time I would say each year had about $500
of general replace/upgrade stuff.  Two years ago I replaced the defunct Atomic 4
with a Universal M4-30 diesel.  $5100 for the engine, $800 for prop, shaft,
controls and mechanic, $500 for H/C water system (pump, heater, faucets, hose)

I haven't replaced the sails (yet) but have priced them out at around $2000 for
a new main and 130 jib, another $1000 for roller furling.

Overdue for a topside paint/Awlgrip job.  $3000 seems to be the popular estimate
Replaceing the standing rigging is estimated around $600 as I recall, although
that number sounds low to me now.

    The bank required 500K liability on my boat.  I too have an umbrella
    policy and wanted to do the minimum 300K and use the umbrella to cover
    any remainder.  The bank indicated that my personnel umbrella might not
    be valid under maritime law because claims go against the vessel and I
    had to get the 500K.
    
    Hank

RE:.10 by CNTROL::MOONEY

> Insurance (none)                 0

Did Bob change your mind on this subject?


Phil

This article was from the usenet newsgrup rec.boats.  The owner of a boat has
kept track of the expenses of owning his boat over the last couple
of years.  His report is interesting.

F.





In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (John F. Hughes) writes:
Path:
nntpd.lkg.dec.com!news.crl.dec.com!deccrl!caen!spool.mu.edu!uunet!brunix!jfh
From: [email protected] (John F. Hughes)
Newsgroups: rec.boats
Subject: 1991 Cost of Boating Report
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Date: 13 Jan 92 16:18:27 GMT
Sender: [email protected]
Reply-To: [email protected] (John F. Hughes)
Distribution: usa
Organization: Brown University Department of Computer Science
Lines: 133

This is my second report on the expenses of owning and operating
Sarah, my 1971 Alberg 37 sloop, which I bought in January, 1990. 

The numbers are, just like last year, staggering. But fortunately, 
they're not as staggering as I might have expected. In explanation
of the categories, let me quote myself from last year:

   (1) Mooring, etc.: costs of maintaining a mooring ($200/year fee), 
   winter haulout, spring put-in, winter mast storage (the boat is 
   stored on jacks in my stepmother's back yard), all ground-tackle-
   related expenses.

   (2) Operating expenses: stuff like diesel fuel, rigging tape, ice, 
   etc. Does not include food--it just includes things you're likely 
   to pay for by VISA or check. 

   (3) Interior systems, excluding electronics and engine: Anything 
   that keeps the boat functioning as a cruising boat--stove, plumbing, 
   head, cabin lighting, upholstery, interior finishes, etc.

Last year I also said:

   "I found the bottom line a little shocking. This year's costs will be 
   different,"

which, although true, was only part right--the costs were in different places,
but similar. There are a number of things this year that fit into the 
"I'll never do them again" or at least the "once every 10 years" category. 
So although the net cost for the year was about $6300, I can say that
$2400 of that was more-or-less one-time expenses. These include paying
for replacing a dinghy I borrowed and lost in the Gulf of Maine somewhere
(sigh), replacing two batteries, installing a DriveSaver on my prop shaft,
putting a 3rd reef point in the main, and installing the related hardware,
putting a new hatch in the main cabin, recutting an old 150% genny to make a
120%, installing an aqua-signal light/strobe at the masthead, replacing the 
rear oil seal on the engine, etc. There was also an ugly scene east of 
Newburyport, when I had to get a marine salvage place to send out a battery to 
me in pretty nasty weather, which cost me $400. 

Anyhow, it's optimistic to think that there will be no such costs this
year--something always comes up--but I can hope for fewer. Since I am working
on several winter projects, including a proper holding tank system (sigh), and
maybe refrigeration, and perhaps some work on my transmission (sigh), these
"exceptional" costs can only be expected to persist. 

I've included remarks on the side explaining exceptional expenses, and then a
second copy of the table to compare with the previous year.

I have not included the "opportunity cost of capital," but invested in stocks,
the amount I have tied up in the boat could be expected to net about $3000. Nor
have I included depreciation, because of my belief that Sarah will only grow
*more* valuable as I continue to own and improve here :-) No, seriously, I
haven't included depreciation because I have absolutely no way to estimate it.

Once again, I should note what I got for the money: the boat was in the 
water from May 10 to October 10; I spent almost the whole month of August 
aboard her in Maine (with only one day of fog, and steady, light-to-moderate
breezes almsot every single day!). Perhaps half the other weekends of the 
summer I managed to get out sailing, and a few weekdays as well. Was it 
cheaper than chartering? No. Was it more fun? In some ways, yes. Did it 
provoke more anxiety? You bet, expecially during Hurricane Bob.

I hope that this tally is informative to those of you looking at buying a boat.
On the good side, the expenses are not completely outrageous. On the bad side,
it's sure not cheap, either. But at least this gives you some honest
information, of the sort you don't often find in the cruising magazines. :-)

                          Income and Expenses by Year
                           From: 1/1/91 To: 12/31/91

QQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQ QQQQQQQQQQQ
Books and magazines                   64.83
DINGHY                               533.95     400-Chip's Dink
                                                120-Seagull parts
Electronic Equip.                    348.78     85-new battery
                                                108-new battery
                                                150-new wiring, panel, light
ENGINE WORK-startup                   73.77
Engine maintenance                   374.07     130-drivesave
Sailing Hardware                     246.95     130-3rd reef hdwre?
General Maintenance on Hull+Eq       617.96     481-new hatch main cabin
Insurance                            825.00
Interior systems, exc elec+eng       165.21
Miscellaneous expenses               306.03
Moor'g,Haul'g,Storage, Anchor      1,110.26	Includes 300' 3/4 Nylon.
Not Categorized                       75.73
operating expenses                   546.49     412-battery fiasco
Boat-related phone calls              97.98
Safety Equipt.                       226.57     200+ - lifesling
Sail repair and purchase             447.40     200-reef in main
                                                246-recut jib to 120%
Monthly Bank Charge                   37.00
Tools for boat                       216.63
                               QQQQQQQQQQQQ
Subtotal                           6,314.61

Additional Boating Expenses
---------- ------- --------
Shop rent for boat workshop        1,200.00
Iceboat Parts and expenses           103.47

TOTAL EXPENSE:                     7,618.08



-------------------------------------------------------------------
                                      1991       1990     change
Startup (i.e. pre-existing probs)
ENGINE WORK-startup                   73.77     1431.79  -1358.02
Interior systems-startup                         365.86   -365.86
Safety Equip-startup                              95.14	   -95.14
 
Books and magazines                   64.83      	   +64.83
DINGHY                               533.95      174.05   +359.90
Electronic Equip.                    348.78      225.19   +123.59
Engine maintenance                   374.07     1194.97   -820.90
Sailing Hardware                     246.95      229.27    +17.68
General Maintenance on Hull+Eq       617.96               +617.96
Insurance                            825.00      750.00    +75.00
Interior systems, exc elec+eng       165.21      490.51   -325.30
Miscellaneous expenses               306.03       	  +306.03
Moor'g,Haul'g,Storage, Anchor      1,110.26     1886.08   -775.82
Not Categorized                       75.73        9.56    +66.17
operating expenses                   546.49      498.31    +48.18
Boat-related phone calls              97.98      416.80   -318.82
Safety Equipt.                       226.57       18.14   +208.43
Sail repair and purchase             447.40               +447.40
Monthly Bank Charge                   37.00       52.00    -15.00
Tools for boat                       216.63       30.00   +186.63
Yard Labor and Tax                               180.00   -180.00
                               QQQQQQQQQQQQ      
Total (Sarah)                      6,314.61     8047.67  -1733.06
      

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (John F. Hughes) writes:
Path:
nntpd.lkg.dec.com!news.crl.dec.com!deccrl!caen!spool.mu.edu!uunet!brunix!jfh
From: [email protected] (John F. Hughes)
Newsgroups: rec.boats
Subject: 1991 Cost of Boating Report
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Date: 13 Jan 92 16:18:27 GMT
Sender: [email protected]
Reply-To: [email protected] (John F. Hughes)
Distribution: usa
Organization: Brown University Department of Computer Science
Lines: 133

This is my second report on the expenses of owning and operating
Sarah, my 1971 Alberg 37 sloop, which I bought in January, 1990. 

The numbers are, just like last year, staggering. But fortunately, 
they're not as staggering as I might have expected. In explanation
of the categories, let me quote myself from last year:

   (1) Mooring, etc.: costs of maintaining a mooring ($200/year fee), 
   winter haulout, spring put-in, winter mast storage (the boat is 
   stored on jacks in my stepmother's back yard), all ground-tackle-
   related expenses.

   (2) Operating expenses: stuff like diesel fuel, rigging tape, ice, 
   etc. Does not include food--it just includes things you're likely 
   to pay for by VISA or check. 

   (3) Interior systems, excluding electronics and engine: Anything 
   that keeps the boat functioning as a cruising boat--stove, plumbing, 
   head, cabin lighting, upholstery, interior finishes, etc.

Last year I also said:

   "I found the bottom line a little shocking. This year's costs will be 
   different,"

which, although true, was only part right--the costs were in different places,
but similar. There are a number of things this year that fit into the 
"I'll never do them again" or at least the "once every 10 years" category. 
So although the net cost for the year was about $6300, I can say that
$2400 of that was more-or-less one-time expenses. These include paying
for replacing a dinghy I borrowed and lost in the Gulf of Maine somewhere
(sigh), replacing two batteries, installing a DriveSaver on my prop shaft,
putting a 3rd reef point in the main, and installing the related hardware,
putting a new hatch in the main cabin, recutting an old 150% genny to make a
120%, installing an aqua-signal light/strobe at the masthead, replacing the 
rear oil seal on the engine, etc. There was also an ugly scene east of 
Newburyport, when I had to get a marine salvage place to send out a battery to 
me in pretty nasty weather, which cost me $400. 

Anyhow, it's optimistic to think that there will be no such costs this
year--something always comes up--but I can hope for fewer. Since I am working
on several winter projects, including a proper holding tank system (sigh), and
maybe refrigeration, and perhaps some work on my transmission (sigh), these
"exceptional" costs can only be expected to persist. 

I've included remarks on the side explaining exceptional expenses, and then a
second copy of the table to compare with the previous year.

I have not included the "opportunity cost of capital," but invested in stocks,
the amount I have tied up in the boat could be expected to net about $3000. Nor
have I included depreciation, because of my belief that Sarah will only grow
*more* valuable as I continue to own and improve here :-) No, seriously, I
haven't included depreciation because I have absolutely no way to estimate it.

Once again, I should note what I got for the money: the boat was in the 
water from May 10 to October 10; I spent almost the whole month of August 
aboard her in Maine (with only one day of fog, and steady, light-to-moderate
breezes almsot every single day!). Perhaps half the other weekends of the 
summer I managed to get out sailing, and a few weekdays as well. Was it 
cheaper than chartering? No. Was it more fun? In some ways, yes. Did it 
provoke more anxiety? You bet, expecially during Hurricane Bob.

I hope that this tally is informative to those of you looking at buying a boat.
On the good side, the expenses are not completely outrageous. On the bad side,
it's sure not cheap, either. But at least this gives you some honest
information, of the sort you don't often find in the cruising magazines. :-)

                          Income and Expenses by Year
                           From: 1/1/91 To: 12/31/91

QQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQ QQQQQQQQQQQ
Books and magazines                   64.83
DINGHY                               533.95     400-Chip's Dink
                                                120-Seagull parts
Electronic Equip.                    348.78     85-new battery
                                                108-new battery
                                                150-new wiring, panel, light
ENGINE WORK-startup                   73.77
Engine maintenance                   374.07     130-drivesave
Sailing Hardware                     246.95     130-3rd reef hdwre?
General Maintenance on Hull+Eq       617.96     481-new hatch main cabin
Insurance                            825.00
Interior systems, exc elec+eng       165.21
Miscellaneous expenses               306.03
Moor'g,Haul'g,Storage, Anchor      1,110.26	Includes 300' 3/4 Nylon.
Not Categorized                       75.73
operating expenses                   546.49     412-battery fiasco
Boat-related phone calls              97.98
Safety Equipt.                       226.57     200+ - lifesling
Sail repair and purchase             447.40     200-reef in main
                                                246-recut jib to 120%
Monthly Bank Charge                   37.00
Tools for boat                       216.63
                               QQQQQQQQQQQQ
Subtotal                           6,314.61

Additional Boating Expenses
---------- ------- --------
Shop rent for boat workshop        1,200.00
Iceboat Parts and expenses           103.47

TOTAL EXPENSE:                     7,618.08



-------------------------------------------------------------------
                                      1991       1990     change
Startup (i.e. pre-existing probs)
ENGINE WORK-startup                   73.77     1431.79  -1358.02
Interior systems-startup                         365.86   -365.86
Safety Equip-startup                              95.14	   -95.14
 
Books and magazines                   64.83      	   +64.83
DINGHY                               533.95      174.05   +359.90
Electronic Equip.                    348.78      225.19   +123.59
Engine maintenance                   374.07     1194.97   -820.90
Sailing Hardware                     246.95      229.27    +17.68
General Maintenance on Hull+Eq       617.96               +617.96
Insurance                            825.00      750.00    +75.00
Interior systems, exc elec+eng       165.21      490.51   -325.30
Miscellaneous expenses               306.03       	  +306.03
Moor'g,Haul'g,Storage, Anchor      1,110.26     1886.08   -775.82
Not Categorized                       75.73        9.56    +66.17
operating expenses                   546.49      498.31    +48.18
Boat-related phone calls              97.98      416.80   -318.82
Safety Equipt.                       226.57       18.14   +208.43
Sail repair and purchase             447.40               +447.40
Monthly Bank Charge                   37.00       52.00    -15.00
Tools for boat                       216.63       30.00   +186.63
Yard Labor and Tax                               180.00   -180.00
                               QQQQQQQQQQQQ      
Total (Sarah)                      6,314.61     8047.67  -1733.06
      

re .last:

If anything, some of the expenses listed in the last reply are unusually
low. For example, only $1110 for mooring, hauling, and storing a 37'
boat? I should be so fortunate! This expense could easily be two or three
times higher. 

This is a follow up to the previous article.

BTW, Alan, a friend of mine pays $200 yearly for a mooring, and
$800 yearly for haul/storage of a Pearson 32 (or thereabouts). This
is in Maine. The $1100 seems in line with this, unless you think that
the costs would go substantially up for a 37 footer.

Here's the article...


In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (EARL
BEARD) writes:
Path:
nntpd.lkg.dec.com!news.crl.dec.com!deccrl!caen!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu
u!wupost!darwin.sura.net!gatech!psuvax1!hsdndev!dartvax!mars.caps.maine.
.edu!maine.maine.edu!beard
From: [email protected] (EARL BEARD)
Newsgroups: rec.boats
Subject: Re: 1991 Cost of Boating Report
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Date: 16 Jan 92 19:13:36 GMT
References: <[email protected]>
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Maine System
Lines: 29

I enjoyed John's summary of costs of owning a boat.  His total comes
very close to what I have experienced over the years. I have a similar size
boat and find that while the particular problems change each year
the costs remain just about the same. Sorry to say, John, but you will
not have to have a battery delivered to you in the middle of the Gulf of
Maine next year but there is always something - watch out for the
locomotive in the bottom of Cape Jellison harbor because when you anchor
there on the next cruise to maine, you will snag it with your anchor.
There goes a new bruce with 5 fathoms of chain. Just again one of those
"only this year" expenses.

Over the years I have found that normal expenses on a boat are
comperable to owning a car - the costs of morgage, gas, and maintainance
of a car are about what the boat costs. Expensive boat equals expensive
car. This way I fool myself by thinking that I just have an extra car
stored someplace which I pay for and maintain. Please not that I am not
including in the boat costs the cost of the money invested in the boat
or boat payments if morgaged.

Now if you want to take the boat someplace exciting - trans atlantic for
example, the specialzed costs just sky rocket. I am doing that next
summer and my costs this winter are about $7-8000 and I havent even
launched the boat yet alone provisioned her.

If on is willing to "bank" the purchase price of the boat and use all
the interest from that account and is willing to add to it the "normal"
annual expense, one could charter a similar boat for the entire summer
here in Maine. The only problem with this is that the boat is not YOUR
boat to fuss over and dream over all winter long.

Costs DownEast are not typical and are not always as low as quoted. Most
of us live in more populous areas and must pay more. We pay $176 per
year ($5.50 per foot) for just our mooring permit in Marblehead. Before we
bought our mooring, annual rental was another $600 or so. Now annual
maintenance and every second or third year chain and pennant replacement
(required to keep our permit) will be $200 to $300 per year. Our boat is
stored in our front yard well inland, and hauling, launching, and
trucking cost $1100 or so per year. What about launch service or dinghy
storage costs if you have a mooring? And if you want a slip, in the
Boston area, slips run, what, $75 per foot per summer (eg, $2775 for a
37' boat)? 

Any rational boat owner chartering his/her boat would want to recover
all costs (operating, cost of capital, depreciation) plus make a profit.
Chartering is only cheaper if you don't use your boat or sail much. 

>Any rational boat owner chartering his/her boat would want to recover
>all costs (operating, cost of capital, depreciation) plus make a profit.
>Chartering is only cheaper if you don't use your boat or sail much. 

Yes, but if you only sail in the NorthEast, you will only have an average of
6 (May through October) months to sail.  Many people who charter their boats, 
send them south to Florida during the winter time and charter them there.  
This means that they could charge a little less than the yearly cost of 
maintenance and capital and depreciation divided by the number of useful weeks 
up here for each week of charter, and still be competitive with ownership.  
Then they could charter the boat in Florida (or wherever) in the winter, and
pay for what it costs to have the boat delivered and make a nice profit.

Or, they could do what Boston Harbor Sailing Club does, which is charge
students to take an offshore course during delivery and make money that
way too (what a racket, eh?)

This all means that it should be possible to charter a boat for the whole 
summer for less than the cost of owning it.  Of course, in practice, 
charter owners charge considerably more that all this, simply because they 
can.

F.

    re: .25
    
    Alan,
    You need to move to Texas! I pay $4.00/ft for a floating slip in Kemah,
    Tx (south of Houston) that has 24hr security, power, water and a
    swimming pool. What's even better is we keep the boat in the water and
    sail 12 months out of the year! 
    
    :-)
    Robert

re .26 and others:

Further discussion of the own vs charter question should be carried on 
in either Note 429 or 804, which have already some discussion about 
this.

During the winter, when the boat is buried in snow,
I'm inclined to do crazy things to stay in touch...
such as gazing at charts...
I have also added up the cost!

Fixed costs
	Insurance				128
	Launch, Step mast & Mooring		603
	Haul, Unstep mast & store		637
	Registration (Maine)			 61

Improvements					711
	Charger for engine, whisker pole,
	binoculars, cabin stove, boom vang.

Gasoline for ob					 96
	
Maintenance					799
	Paint, electrical parts, winch handles,
	battens, lines, propeller, coax,
	charts, new battery, clothing  etc etc

Gasoline for car (to Brunswick, Maine)
	16 trips	$12			192
						---
					       3227

Of the 16 trips, 5 were before launching or after hauling.
The remaining 11 trips (33 days total) were spent sailing.

This is for a small (25') sloop with outboard.
Mike

    
    	Easy fix! Move onto the boat, save $$$ on gas, mortgage, tax,
    	insurance...
    
    	}8*)
    
    	Justification: All that money could otherwise go to other forms of
    	stress management...
    
    	Well, almost time to don old clothes and respirator/filter and
    	100grit paper...
    
    	(speaking of crazy things)
    
    	Scott

    $96 worth of fuel for an outboard for 1 season!? 
    
    Wow!! where do you buy gas?  I love to tell power boaters how I still
    have a few dreggs left from the 6 gallons I put in my tank 2 years ago. 
    I love to tell every one that. I just don't tell 'em what a sail costs.
    
    Geoff

Re 31

	The 'cost of gas' also included the ob oil.

	Yep! Motoring is a sad fact of life. Usually there
	is no wind in the morning on the coast of Maine.

	Mike

re .32:

On windless mornings one can always go for a row. I've spent many a 
pleasant morning poking along the shore, bird or seal watching or just 
exploring. This is one reason why I want to build/acquire another 
dinghy, one that rows well. 

signed, 

one_who_liketh_not_listening_to_engines

Seeing how nasty the wind was Sunday (and having gotten pummeled on Saturday),
I did a list of what needs to be done in the off season to my monohull.

This led to making a list of exactly what I bought during the season to get her
(1975 pearson 26 "Ying Yang") into the water and making her comfortable.  I
thought I'd share the list. For those of you who see those low prices on 15+
year old boats, there is dark side, and that is the cost to "renew" the boat,
or to make it "ship shape" once again. 


Couple of items before I get into the gory details:

 I have set the costs up by what needed to be done immediately,
 items I considered nice to haves, and then there are the operating costs of
 owning a boat. They sure ain't perfect, but the costs are there. They will
 give you a feel for what it costs to renew an older boat.

 I completed most the work this year. In the coming winter, I will finish
 her off as I am down to little things.

 These are only the material costs. Other than a haul out charge and motor
 repair, I did all  the work myself (Actually my wife, a friend, and myself).
 My estimates are 350+ hours into her. Labor is not free, as every 10 hours
 cost me dinner for 2 at a nice resturant. But I have excluded this along with
 gas and fees to commute to the boat as money I would have burned skiing in
 Feb-Apr  rather than stripping paint and polishing fibreglas. 

 I have not included the cost of tools such as sanders, polishers, grinders,
 saws, or their rental (ie generators). Same goes for taxes, shipping charges,
 and all the small fasteners that probably add up to a couple extra dinners.

 
130     Strip Hulls  
190     Bottom Paint + primer
 65     Replaced tiller bearings
 10     Revarish and shim tiller
 49     Install holding tank, 
 42      hand pump 
 43      Y-valve 
 25      U-loop
 65      septic hose
 49     Installed new water tank
 20      lines and fittings
 10     Repair cabin floor
 50     Replace jib and Main halyards
 80     Replaced jib sheets
 18     Rebuilt winches
 16     Replaced scupper hoses and clamps
  0     Rebuilt through-hole seacocks
110     Replace mainsheet and blocks
 49     Replaced 1 battery
 20     Replace fuel lines
---    --------
1041    sub total for Hull Integrity


 20     Boat hook 
 27     Ensign and flag
 10     Shroud cover
  0     Replace radio mike (friend gave me one)
 22     Hand pump
  7     Flares
 10     Fire estingisher
 90     Charts
 29     New locking winch handle 
 15     Winch handle for Halyards
 10     Electrical socket for telephone
 12     Reefing lines
 35     Boat name lettering
 32     Registraton letters
 20     Life Jacket
---     -----------
339     sub total  for Safety 


360     Rain gear
 70     Mooring pendent and chafe gear
220     Motor repaired (since it is a sailboat, I consider it a nice to have)
630     Replaced Inflatible motor
 19     Paddles
 29     Boarding ladder
 49     Air pump for Inflatible
 70     Sand paper, polishes, waxes etc    
---     -----------
1447    Sub total for Nice to haves

150     Insurance
1220    Mooring
 50     Town permit
 35  	Fed sticker
290     Pull Boat to fix rudder bearings
800     Winter storage
250     Sales tax
140     Registration for both boat and dingy
200     Tipping of launch operators
---     ---------------
3135    Subtotal funds for the privledge of using the boat



1041    Hull prep  Sub total
 339    Safety Sub total
1447    Nice to haves Sub Total
3135    Privledge of using boat Sub total
----
5962    Cost of fixing and commissioning the boat

5500    Actual Cost of Boat
-----
11462   Cost to go Monohulling this year. 


Next Year

800     New cushions
150     Replace lifelines
120     Lead halyards into cockpit
 25     Touch up bottom paint
150     Replace anchoring system with larger size 
500     New blade jib for storms
120     Propane bar-b-que
120     Rebuild head pump
---     -----------
1985    Total new capital investment

1200    Mooring
800     Winter storage (unless I sell early next year)
150     Insurance
 50     Town permit
200     Tipping launch operators
---     ------------
2400    Total annual fees

4385    year 2 cost of sailing


Conclusions:

   You had better understand the condition of a used boat and what it will
   really cost you to correct.  And if it is not a work of love, best
   figure labor charges in to. Understand the difference between cosmetic
   problems and real damage. And make sure you fix all the important stuff
   before launch. The lift fees can kill your budget. A prioritized list of
   what needs to be done is essential to budgeting your work, time, and SO's
   expectations ("Really honey, it's going to look like Stars and Stripes 
   when we're done next week ....")

   You may not be able to repair acute damage yourself. If you are going to 
   do this yourself, make sure your crew hates to ski, and enjoys eating 
   fibreglass dust at 11 degrees F. ;>)

   You need to know what the boat is worth after you fix it up (ie how much
   of your efforts do you expect to recupe?) In my case, I was within 10 
   percent of my budget. The Average retail for a boat of my type in very
   good condition with the equipment on it is around $10-11.5K. By next year
   I will be over a bit, but not much. I am used to 2K deprecation a year
   on beach cats (ie replace every 3 years), so for 2-3 years, I will be in
   the ball park.

   Eat the costs of ownership, it's dues every year. You may not like them, 
   but you have to pay em. You will never get this money back, so just ignore 
   it. I rationalize this is money that would have gone to a shrink if I did
   not have my boat to work/play on.

   If it was not for this notes file, my costs would have been 25-35% higher.
   By spending lunch researching various tasks, I was able to do most of them
   myself with enough knowlege not to screw something up even worse. I also
   got a lot of help from noters who would personally call me because of a 
    certain notes. Notes are a great instrument for aqquiring knowledge 
    quickly and cheaply.

   These costs may have you thinking hard about a sailing club and banking 
   the money. To each their own. Ditto for mooring and yard costs verus 
   dry sailing. I make up the mooring costs on getting 2-3 nights a week 
   extra sailing in, as I can use the boat after work.

   Even new boats need many of the nice to haves and privledge of sailing 
   costs. 

   The next boat I buy will probably be used, but chances are it will be 
   newer, as the replacment/repair costs explode as they get bigger.

   Thanks for the help from all you. 

    john
    

    John,
    
    Don't forget to grant me "right-of-first-refusal"!
    
    	:-)
    
    ps: It was "Yin Yang"
    

    
    	Good stuff John! Except: Sandpaper: Nice to have??? Whahahahaha
    	
    	Now, when is your wife & friend available? Tell `em I'll do dinner
    	for _8_ hours of work!!
    
    	About your pricing: when finished, you'll have something _much_
    nicer than you could buy used, plus the pride, education and lung
    insulation that goes along. 
    	Also: West System. Gotta love it.
    
    	I used to do things like work on cars and houses for therapy. Now I
    sail and fix the boat. My car & house are in shambles, but I keep this
    silly grin on my face anyway!
    
    	Besides: Nobody Ever Got A Trophy For A Well Vacuumed Living Room.
    
    	Scott (that bottom sandin' fool)
    

    re .36  
    
    The sandpaper was 600/1000/1500 for wetsanding of the hull by hand 
    before polishing. I could have gotten away without it, but the
    chaulking would have been there .
    
    The bottom had many,many coats of bottom paint. This
    took two passes with bottom paint stripper. Doing this chemically was
    the only way to go as the paint would clog up on grit sand paper we
    tried on a power sander.
    
    This is where you find who your real friends are. And you take real
    good care of them. Wait till they see what Santa is bringing them (no,
    it's not a new polisher/sander). Too many nights in nice restruants
    with us looking like dirt bags, blue bottom paint on our clothes and
    on hands, fibreglas dust in our hair. 
    
    You really do get to know your boat. Every bulkhead, fastener, wire,
    and stain. Not only is there the pride of ownership (love those before/
    after photos), but in a blow you don't worry, you KNOW everything is ship
    shape and she is going to take it. 
    
    Probably the best thing about refinishing an older boat is the looks
    you get from people who used to own one of whatever it is you got only
    a long, long time ago. For they truely understand the love you put into
    the vessel to make it better than new. 
    
    I agree about neglect of other projects. With the Hobie, the cold water
    pretty much killed the season the 1st week of October. That gave me
    3-4 weekends to get the house squared away. With the monohull the boat
    doesn't get pulled til mid November and then it will take 2 weekends to
    square away. Glad I contracted out the new deck and roof this year!!!!
    As for the kitchen remodeling, just don't say anything to my wife, it is
    sort of a sore subject right now    ;>)
    
    john
            

    Did you really sand a boat hull with 600/1000/1500 paper? Ive never
    used anything finer that 400, and that only when I was doing polished
    brass surfaces. I dont even use 600 on model boats.
    
    Bottom sanding is an 80 or maybe 120 job, with a 220 final swipe if you
    really want to be fussy. 

    RE .38
    
      YUP, but then I am talking about the hull ABOVE the water line.
    Using a chemical stripper gets the hull bottom nice and clean, so a quick 
    swipe with 220 grit makes it ready for bottom paint.
    
      On Catamarans we used to sand the gelcoat to reduce lamir friction.
    600 is just fine, but is leaves terrible scratch marks on the hulls.
    So we just keep going finer. And when you are done you do
    not wax the boat! That would slow it down again. The best grit is 2000
    grit, but it is real hard to find. A really good auto parts store that
    supplies local body shops will ussually have it. It is used to finish
    off a clear coat paint repairs.
    
    Once you get past 600, there is darn little friction, so it goes fairly
    quickly, you just have to keep going till you are done. 1500/2000 is
    also good for cleaning up a stain that just does not want to wipe away
    with normal cleaners, while not being so abrasive it cuts through a lot
    of gelcoat leaving a potential thin spot. It can sometimes even bring
    back the color on faded vinyl decals, but you should always check on a
    section that is hard to see, and put a coat of wax on it after
    you are done (UV protective type of course!)  Oh yeah, NEVER FORGET THE 
    WATER ONCE PAST 200 grit. you always want the paper "floating".
    
    When done, the boat is real smooth and shiney, but has a "dry" look to
    it. This is where you use a fine polishing compound and glaze before
    you wax to get some oils back into the gelcoat. May not need to do this
    with new boats, but 15+ year old ones sure look better afterwards. The
    polishing compound is probably a lot more course than the sandpaper,
    but there are no creaves for the stuff to dry into so you don't get
    a half baked look.
    
    I found getting down to 600 wet is needed for an acceptable job with a
    2 part polyurathane. That stuff shows every flaw, so you really have
    to prep the boat.
    
    john

    John,   All those costs you listed look low to me.   During the last 
            two years, these were the costs for my friends 1975 Ketch;
    
    New Diesel       $20,000
    Re-wiring        $20,000
    New Windlass     $ 5,000
    New Electronics  $20,000
    
    This is just the begining.....

re .40

$20K for a diesel? Must be some awesome diesel!
$20K for rewiring? That's 500 hours (over 12 manweeks!) at $40/hr!
$20K for new electronics? That's 20 $1000 gizmos!
$5K for a windlass? Did they need to rebuild the whole foredeck?

I found John's costs to be in line with my own experience, assuming of course
the use of your own labor. With yard labor, the costs will double or triple. On
a larger boat, the costs will also be higher, but not that high!

--RS

    Thanks for entering the ownership costs for a sailboat.  I keep on
    hankering for one, but wonder really how much it does cost.  Seeing the
    expenses makes me feel better and better about my sailing plan to rent,
    charter or join sailing clubs, given my limited budget.
    
    Thanks again for the fact, figures and honesty.

    20 K for a new diesel?! For a sailboat?  What kind of diesel IS it?
    What had to be done to get it in and out of the boat? Did they have to
    rip the cabin sole out and replace it or something?
    
    20 K for wiring?  Geez. How big a boat. Did ALL the wiring have to be
    replaced?
    
    Can you explain these expenses in a bit more detail?
    
    Jeff

    re. 41 and 43
    
    I am pretty sure that the expenses Frank is talking about is for an
    older SWAN 54.  For this boat the  expense seems reasonable to me.
                

    These are typical expenses for running a 50' boat.  Lots of the work
    was done at Hoods yard, in Portsmith, RI, USA.  
    
    The engine is a 70 hp turbocharged diesel.  The re-wiring included
    all new everything plus 2 autopilot for redundancy.  In addition radar
    & SSB radio was installed.
    
    Since the boat is a 1975, it could use new Teak decks.  The quotes 
    range from $20,000 to $40,000 depending on where.  (Venezeula or
    Swan in Norway are the quotes)
    
    Thirty foot boats are very economical investments!
    
    FL 

re: .45

This sounds like a money-is-no-object approach to boating. Obviously,
some people have the means to do this, but most owners of 20 year old 50' boats
are on a much tighter budget. I doubt that a typical 20 year old teak
deck needs to be completely replaced. A more frugal approach would be to do
localized repairs at a local yard. Similarly, nobody *needs* two autopilots
for redundancy, since there will typically be a crew for redundancy :-)

It is quite true that a larger boat has much larger expenses. A good rule of
thumb: expenses are proportional to the cube of the length. E.g. expenses for
a 50' boat are 8 times the expenses for a 25' boat. (The cube rule follows
from the observation that volume and mass increase as the cube of the length,
and the cost of "stuff" is roughly proportional to volume and mass.)

--RS

This report may encourage some to buy their own small boat.
It need not be so expensive and it is a wonderful activity.
These cost reflect my choosing to sail in the Penobscot Bay
to Mount Desert area.

						1992	1993
Fixed costs
	Insurance				128	128
	Launch, Step mast & Mooring		603	512
	Haul, Unstep mast & store		637	485
	Registration (Maine)			 61	 61

Improvements					711	309
	This year: New sanipotti, anchor light, 
	oil lamp etc.

Gasoline for ob					 96	101
	
Maintenance					799	769
	This year: Paint all teak, sail repair,
	new tarp, battens, lines, 
	winch handles...


Gasoline for car				192	330
	Between Acton MA and Rockland ME.

						---	---
					       3227    2695

Trips
	Before and after hauling		  5	  5
	For sailing				 11	 10
					
Days
	Before and after hauling		 ??	 10
	Fog-bound				  2	  5
	Sailing - or motoring :-)		 31	 41
						
The boat is a Cape Dory 25 in excellent condition, and there were
no repairs needed for the hull, deck, rig etc.

An Annual Report that may encourage some to own their own small boat.
Its a marvelous pleasure that need not be so expensive.
The costs reflect my choosing to sail in the Penobscot Bay to
Mount Desert area.

 					       1992   1993
Fixed costs
	Insurance				128	128
	Launch, Step mast & Mooring		603	512
	Haul, Unstep mast & store		637	485
	Registration (Maine)			 61	 61

Improvements					711	309
	This year: New sanipotti, anchor lamp,
	oil lamp etc.

Gasoline for ob					 96	101
	
Maintenance					799	769
	This year: Paint for teak, winch handles,
	sail repair, new tarp, battens, lines etc.

Gasoline for car
	This year: From Acton MA 		192	330
		to Rockland ME.			---	---

					       3227    2695

Trips
	Before and after hauling		 5	 5
	For sailing				11	10

Days
	Before and after hauling		??	10
	Fog-bound				 2	 5
	Sailing or motoring :-)			31	41

Mike

    Well Folks, it's that time of the year again to pull all the reciepts
    out of the folder and fire up the adding machine. It's hard to tell
    whether it's a tragedy or not without some dead bodies around, but here
    is my commentary.

    This was year 2 of my 3 year plan to recondition a 1975 Pearson
    monohull. The first year was getting the boat safe again. This is
    detailed in an  earlier note(1118.34). Year two was spent getting all
    the bugs out of the system, and making the boat look presentable. Next
    year will be the final year  when the old girl will be looking like new
    even though she is celebrating 20 years sailing.

    Dave Carter keeps telling me to just throw away the reciepts as it only 
    make one sick. Maybe he has something there. But I figure showing the
    hard facts may save some poor soul from getting hooked on the sailing
    bug at least from a stand point of ownership. As you can see, the cost
    of the boat is zip compared to maintaining it. I could have gotten by
    for 1/3 the cost this year if I wanted to, but the condition would
    suffer.

    Trends :

1. I was pretty close on gauging costs for the year, especially at a detail
   level. Most overruns were based on items I thought I might as well do
   this year.

2. The cost of cushions and washing/buying sails made up a huge expense. 
   could have gotten away without these, but being a typical Deccie, it
   has to be perfect... Note the boat has been a source of pride when old salts
   comment how nice the old girl looks. Dividing these comments by associated
   costs leads to a weighted average of $2600.00 per compliment. ;>)

3. Costs increased approximately 5-8 percent from fees to parts. I suggest
   you buy any materials prior to year end. That's when the new catalogs
   come out and prices go up.

4. Although the materials cost look huge, by buying only what I needed for
   the next couple of weekends and then spending all my time working
   on the boat, I was able to rationize that this was free money that I
   would have spent skiing with a bunch of people I don't know or care for.
   My average was $100 a weekend or a 2 day pass and a couple of shouts.

5. Part of the reason of having everything perfect was I started racing
   this season. As such, everything has to be correct and working smoothly.
   This attention to detail was evident as I can't remember a single race
    loss I could pin on the boat. ;>)
    
6. Short of pulling the boat, every task was sweat equity. I must be getting 
   close to 550 hours on the boat. I probably know every part better than 
   the designer by now.

7. There is no way I will ever recoup the cost of this insanity. I just 
   chock it up to a small price to pay compared to what the next one is
   going to cost.

8. Speaking of costs, I have added next year's estimation. That may be the last
   of the backbreaker years. The boat will be restored, the boat stands paid
   for, and hopefully I will be accepted as a member of a yacht club which will
   cut my mooring and storage costs considerably.

Enough said. If these numbers don't scare you off, Have I got a boat for you!


275     New lifelines
 40     Bottom paint
 35     Camcleat system for main traveler
 60     Assorted Sheets
 40     Repaint Boot Stripe
 50     New Cove Stripe and Decals
 45     Winterize motor
 15     Rebuild Head
 60     Rewire entire boat including fuse panel
 20     Winch pads (2)
 50     Rebuild Transom area (fibreglas,gelcoat)
 40     Outboard parts (implelers, grease, spark plugs)
 17     Additional cleat
 10     remove throttle mount and reglass/gelcoat hole
----    --------
757     Sub total for Hull Integrity

 28     Repair inflatible (hole at valve done by factory)
100     LifeSling MOB system
 80     2 additional safety harnesses
 30     Additional floating winch handle
 50     New anchor line    
 30     Rechargable Air Horn 
---     -----------
318     sub total  for Safety 

650     New Cushions
114     Propane BBQ
 25     Flags for Racing (class, protest etc)
 55     Mooring Pendent Floats (2)
180     Storm Jib (used)   
304     Sails cleaned and resined
 60     Paint interior
 50     Varnish and brushes
 35     Wax, Soap, scrub brushes etc
 10     Curtains & rods
---     -----------
1483    Sub total for Nice to haves

150     Insurance
1270    Mooring
104     Town permit
 52     Town Excise Tax
780     Winter storage (94)
 20     Tipping of launch operators
225     Racing Dues
 35     Gas, oil, and propane for BBQ
---     ---------------
2636    Subtotal funds for the privledge of using the boat



 757    Hull prep  Sub total
 318    Safety Sub total
1483    Nice to haves Sub Total
2636    Privledge of using boat Sub total
----    ---------------------------------
5194    Year 2 Costs



Next Year

 40     Touch up bottom paint
250     Lead halyards aft 
500     New 110 jib
 70     Rewire mast
300     All new standing rigging
 10     Rebed lifeline stansions
 50     Rebuild tiller/rudderpost connection
 60     New spare jib sheets
        Regrease the seacocks
---     -----------
1280        Total new capital investment
									     
 
1300    Mooring
1200    Winter storage (include $300 for stands and 900 for transport)
150     Insurance
100     Town permit
 52     Taxes
 50     Tipping launch operators (used much less since inflatable works)
300     Racing dues
---     ------------
3152    Total annual fees

5500    Cost of Boat        
5962    year 1 cost of sailing    1993
5194    year 2 cost of sailing    1994
3152    year 3 Cost of Sailing    1995
----    ----------------------
19808   3 years of owning a boat  (Who said boats are cheap?)
-11000   Residual value of boat at end of year 3 *
-----
 8808   or $3,000 a year


    I hope this information is helpful to any of you owners. And be sure to 
    come on over for the winter confab and congratulate me. I've
    got to get that cost/compliment ratio down   ;>)
    
    john

Here we go again. Least the ambitious project in 1118.49 be the last word, 
here is a cheaper way (but not a better way) to own a boat.
The costs reflect my choosing to sail in the Penobscot Bay to
Mount Desert area and also that "Grace" is a solid boat in good condition.

 					       1992    1993    1994
Fixed costs
	Insurance				128	128	160
	Launch, Step mast & Mooring		603	512	601
	Haul, Unstep mast & store		637	485	560
	Registration (Maine)			 61	 61	 61

Improvements					711	309	433
	For 1994: Storm jib, Rode rider,
	rode bag, cushion covers, loran.

Gasoline for ob					 96	101	65
	
Maintenance					
	Outboard				75	121	289
	Other					723	649	684
	(includes paint, stove fuel, 
	gloves, socks, fuses, tools etc)

Gasoline for car
	This year: From Acton MA 		192	330	286
		to Rockland ME.			---	---	___

					       3227    2695	3139

Trips
	Before and after hauling		 5	 5	3
	For sailing				11	10	10

Days
	Before and after hauling		??	10	7
	Fog-bound				 2	 5	-
	Sailing or motoring :-)			31	41	28


There were no 'fog-bound' days because I sailed in the fog this year.
I am surprised to see that I sailed significantly less 
...lets not make that a trend!
I note the rising cost of my outboard.

Mike

    re 1118.50
    
    
       Sounds about right. When Ron used to keep the boat in Maine, his
    storage costs were about half of what I pay today. He also had a much
    better selection of locales to sail to.
    
       This shows one of the trade offs we all make. I keep my boat in Salem
    harbor, just North of Boston. It is about 40 miles from the office or
    home.
    
       I only went out twice in fog, once on purpose. Salem Sounds is quite
    large and seldom gets bad fog, since all the land around it has a way of
    burning it off. 
    
    Boat use is greatly increased, as I get out several evenings during the
    week for 3-4 hours. As such, I get my "more cockpit time", though the
    quality is not the same.
    
    This year the boat was bobbing for 25 weeks. I missed 4 weekends
    because of business trips, other commitments etc.
    
    21*2 = 42 days
    
    add in 3 long holidays and about 5 vacations days of pure sailing 
    and we are at 50 days.
    
    Then there were the 13 nights of thursday racing and approximately 15
    nights of other sailing .
    
    john
    
    This gets the usage to cost to a point of being bearable, plus it 
    sucks up any time I would have used on other interests (ie painting the
    house, taking up another hobby etc...). 

Well, here are the cost from last year. The boat is a Cape Dory 25 
kept at Great Island Boat Yard near Brunswick, Maine. 
Costs do not include wine, beer and food but do include everything else.

				       1992   1993	1994	1995
FIXED COSTS
Insurance				128	128	160	172
Launch, Step mast & Mooring		603	512	601	744
Haul, Unstep mast & store		637	485	560	614
Registration (Maine)			 61	 61	 61	49

IMPROVEMENTS				711	309	433	191
For 1995: Searchlight, 2nd battery,
am/fm/casette portable. 

GAS FOR OUTBOARD			 96	101	65	87
	
MAINTENANCE					
Outboard				75	121	289	385
Other					723	649	684	878
(includes paint, GRP materials, stove fuel, 
clothes, fasteners, tools, antenna
dropped overboard, lost fender etc)

GAS FOR CAR
This year: From Acton MA 		192	330	286	210
	to Brunswick ME.		---	---	---	---
				       3227    2695	3139	3330

TRIPS
Before and after hauling		 5	 5	3	4
For sailing				11	10	10	10

DAYS
Before launch and after hauling		??	10	7	7
Fog-bound				 2	 5	0	3
Sailing or motoring :-)			31	41	28	44


Sailing days were up again, see note 2246.0
I note the rising cost of my outboard *again*. Will replace next year.

Not included in the above was the loss of my dingy and the receipt of $565 
from the insurance company with which I bought a used 9 foot WaterTender.
Mike